Toon Link Matchup Rediscussion #12: Diddy Kong

[TLMSheikant]

Time for another rediscussion:

GO!

 

[TheJerm]

This one of the most even match ups in this game. If you fools say otherwise, I forever give up on the TL boards lol.

 

[NearZzz]

Its pretty even. But I can't really contribute here, one of my worst personal matchups.

 

[Mota]

Pretty even, I'd say.

SH Air-dodge to either dodge the nanas or catch them, then Zair.

Basically don't let Diddy get momentum (easier said then done) with his nanas, without them we have a massive advantage in terms of priority.

Bombs.

Don't have much exp on this match up.

 

[2nLio]

get good at picking up naners without tripping in the process.

 

[copacetic]

airdodge cancel throw the naners. I never see any good players do it but since most TLs have at least learned the SHDB, we have the timing down to instantly throw his naners back at him. A lot of times if they see you catching the naners they'll bait the airdodge and punish, so if you do this there's no room for error and you instantly gain control of his best weapon.

Plus, if a banana is on the ground, instead of using dash attack or having to slow down to get it or waste an aerial, SH next to it and instant throw it and you basically have no lag. Plus if you hit him with it, you get a free zair at the least

 

[Lobos]

Even.......One of my favorite match ups! Aggressive Diddy is fun to fight but harder....campy diddy is boring and easy. This is one of those match ups where TL can go aggro and do well. The bananas can mess our momentum up but at the same time we can use the naners back at them although not recommended vs a pro diddy. Diddy can combo pretty good but so can TL. JC a banana into a usmash lol, I feel likes its even in the air too. I like to stand still and wait for Diddy to just throw naners at me and watch them hit my shield and fly off. Diddy up close and personal is better than tink. I wish we can grab people when they trip........

Gnes is the only one left on my list..... be scared

 

[demonictoonlink]

I instant throw against peaches all the time. Do the same here.
The cool thing is, if you anticipate the banana throw and do the airdodge instantly to A to attack, if you mispredicted it, you just Zair. No harm done really. Instant throwing is SO helpful.

This MU is EVEN.

 

[Popcornio]

One of my funnest match-ups!

50:50 Easily.

This match can go either way depending on how well Diddy (or you) control the stage and bananas. I found out that most Diddys run after you for either a Dash or Grab after throwing a Banana after you so I find short hop to N-air works wonders as it catches the banana being throw at you and gives you a little defence on the way down. Z-air is a great spacer to stall Diddy on his banana game. Bananas can also be used to easily gimp is recovery (if you predict they are coming straight up to the ledge). If you throw a banana and hit Diddy with it while they are in their Up-B, it stalls them and causes the jet pack to break (watch out for the flying barrel!). This will give you time to follow up, or if they are low enough you can edgehog that for an easy kill.

The easiest way I find to conter a Diddy is with controlling their bananas (easier said than done).

EDIT: I forgot about this, you can also pick up bananas on the ground by short hopping onto them and dodging right before you hit the banana. Also, in terms of stages try to get ones with a lot of movement going on. You should ban Final Destination. A good counter pick stage would be Rainbow Cruise (watch out for the flat top part), and I tend to like Pokemon Stadium 1 or Yoshi Island for a starter stage.

 

[A~Kid/ToonethLinkage]

I suck at it. I think he has the advantage. But you guys say even, so IDK. You guys decide. I'll just wait for the summary lol.

 

[TheJerm]

Even.......One of my favorite match ups! Aggressive Diddy is fun to fight but harder....campy diddy is boring and easy. This is one of those match ups where TL can go aggro and do well. The bananas can mess our momentum up but at the same time we can use the naners back at them although not recommended vs a pro diddy. Diddy can combo pretty good but so can TL. JC a banana into a usmash lol, I feel likes its even in the air too. I like to stand still and wait for Diddy to just throw naners at me and watch them hit my shield and fly off. Diddy up close and personal is better than tink. I wish we can grab people when they trip........

Gnes is the only one left on my list..... be scared

You wont win..

and you beat adhd? well even if you did, you still wont win =/

 

[Radori Nighthawk]

@ Lobos. You beat NL's Diddy?

Ah this matchup. Well from what I've watched and played it's rather even. Maybe just a smidge in our favor even. From the one match I did against the only Diddy I've fought, Zair to grab and work wonders if nanerz are afoot. When diddy is in kill range GET A NANER. You can throw it at him and get a free Up-Smash. I was defeated in the match I played against him at Otakon 2009. (Got 5th in singles) The sad part about that is...he even said, "If you would have Diddy dittoed me...you would have won for sure" BAH! What a shame.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Another even? >_>. I forgot to ask the diddys to come here lol. Ill get them now.

 

[Lobos]

@jerm and radori - in friendlies....NL always went marth vs me in tourney ~.~ besides playing all top diddy players, I wanna play gnes

 

[TheJerm]

NL using marth vs TL in tournament.. Oh, well, you can play gnes, but in tournament, you'll exp his wrath. I'll beat him soon.

No need to bring those noob diddys, its even.
Ban luigis
CP battlefield or smashville. Whatever stage you like, it doesnt matter much in this match up. Actually, I know what stage to take them to, but we shouldnt say it here, dumb diddys gonna read it then ban it xD

 

[Sosuke]

Good idea jerm!

 

[jitanIX]

I'd like to say that it is a very close match up. I am a very adept diddy player and my friend is quite skilled with his toon link. Offline, our matches end up at a 1 stock stalemate most of the time. I must say that they are both very balanced characters. As for counter-picks...lets just say diddy has a couple... ;D

 

[Gnes]

Hmm...ill post a huge matchup wall on this matchup when i get out of class. Not to be arrogant, but i truly believe i know this matchup better than anyone. And ill humor u with my matchup ratio which some of u may not agree with....

51-49 Diddy slight advantage

Also Jerm, im gonna reveal everything, and by everything i mean how to beat your chr.



*FIRED MY LAZAH

 

[Gea]

Do ho ho.

Wait until he throws something and tries to follow it, then throw something and follow it.

Then after like two hits, run run away.

 

[Santi]

70-30 TL







That just happened

 

[TheJerm]

Hmm...ill post a huge matchup wall on this matchup when i get out of class. Not to be arrogant, but i truly believe i know this matchup better than anyone. And ill humor u with my matchup ratio which some of u may not agree with....

51-49 Diddy slight advantage

Also Jerm, im gonna reveal everything, and by everything i mean how to beat your chr.



*FIRED MY LAZAH

T_T

Then i'll reveal how to beat your character! .. cept when you using him. Still figuring that out
*back to the research..*

 

[QUIVO]

Diddy is stupid on Luigis Mansion.

Gnes mindgamed me into thinking that I have no idea what to do against Diddy in the matchup.

 

[TheJerm]

I've created the diddy version of dojo.. sorry guys. But i'll figure out how to win.. and beat dojo while im at it =]

 

[Lobos]

Luigis is banned in my region lol and I like most of the diddy cp stages

Santi just ****ted on diddy

 

[Gea]

Diddy loves him some Kanto. S'all I'm sayin.

 

[Gnes]

Hmm....on second thought i wont reveal my secrets.

I dont really know where to start, i guess lets go with the basics.

The matchup is basically even, though I think diddy may have a very slight advantage. Diddy/Tink are essentially one in the same. Same patterns, Same general playstyle, its almost crazy how alike they are. I guess ill go into playstyles first.

Most toon links i've played usually have a similar playstyle against diddy, though I've seen Jash use a slightly different one, which was a effective in some ways and ineffective in others. Basically, toon links like to take to the air, applying pressure from bombs, creating frame traps with the boomerang, and utilizing zair on the way down for pretty much no lag. Its a pretty good strategy, considering Diddy in no way possible can punish retreating zair, he can only catch one bomb at a time(of course they have a fuse), and pressuring like this causes diddy to want to take to the air, which is a horrible choice(though i do it sometimes )considering his air movement speed.

The only problem with this strategy is that even with autocancels, diddy can frame trap toon link as he tries to reach the ground. This portion is pretty hard to explain. Pretty much, Diddy can utilizes all his projectiles and himself to create a situation where toon link CANNOT land without being punished. Its pretty much diddy's only weapon in this matchup, but frankly its the only thing we need. After that, it just a spacing matchup. The only thing unpunishable that we have in this matchup is if we cross over your shield with a naner. Other than that, its all up to the players, whoever makes the least amount mistakes, and gets the first kill usually wins.

Hmm...thats it for now.

Also...heres a video...its me and jerm most recent set. It was pretty serious, but it was only a 5$ tourney so dont read too much into it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nq59ppscKRM&feature=fvsr

 

[Dojo]

Psh you don't know the matchup like me son. I saw Hyro taking you close at Oh Snap.

 

[Gnes]

Psh you don't know the matchup like me son. I saw Hyro taking you close at Oh Snap.

And then on to second match same stage, I near jv 3 stocked him. Your point is irrelevant. Jerm got u down to 1 stock in a horrible matchup for his character at that very same tourney.

GET OUT

 

[Radori Nighthawk]

And then on to second match same stage, I near jv 3 stocked him. Your point is irrelevant. Jerm got u down to 1 stock in a horrible matchup for his character at that very same tourney.

GET OUT

I luled hard.

Ok so I just play a ton of friendlies against Esash (sp?) DIddy. I learned that if you do a shorthopped Nair then press A before you hit the ground with a naner under you, you'll pick it up. Really useful.

 

[A~Kid/ToonethLinkage]

Ok so I just play a ton of friendlies against Guy's DIddy. I learned that if you do a shorthopped Nair then press A before you hit the ground with a naner under you, you'll pick it up. Really useful.

I love you for this, full homo.

 

[Radori Nighthawk]

I love you for this, full homo.

Obby?

Glad I could help.

Nair will be a great tool here. Since our ability to pick up naners is so great we have no problem in thinking of combos with them. For instance, knock him down with naner running nair. Grab works too is a bit more risky. Pivot grabbing his tech roll is sexy. :3

 

[Indigo Jeans]

This is easily 55:45 TL's favor, but could be 60:40.

Toon can easily out camp Diddy. Just be sure to shield his Peanuts.
Against Nanners, avoid them then keep one for yourself as long as possible. This prevents Diddy from vaving complete stage control. Unless you're sure you're gonna land BCDS, then DON'T LET GO OF THE NANNER. An exception to this would be if you're launched into the air. Airdodge ASAP, throw the nanner back onstage if possible, then whip out a bomb. With this you can either disrupt his attempts to edgeguard, or use it to get another UpB back.

SPAM ARROWS
Arrows are your -best- fwends. Use them to mess with his recovery, approach, GT, etc. Use them to camp(duh). Use them to long-range edgeguard. Use them the instant yhe chance presents itself.

Also, your boomerang is prolly your second best friend in this matchup. Use it as you would arrows, but aslo use it to cancel out(or at least mess up the trajectory of) nanners. Also, use it as a GTFO move, along with USmash.

Bair is essential here. Not many of Toon Links aerials outprioritize or comeout faster than those of Diddy's. Bair is an exception. This would probably be a better choice for approaching or disrupting nanners. Also, when on the ledge: Don't Ledgehop->Fair. Drop down, wall jump, then buffer a Bair. It's infinitely safer than other aerials, especially on stges with curved lips like Battlefield and FD.

Use Zair in conjuction with Bombs, Arrows, Bair, and Boomerang. Just don'tabuse it. Keep it unpredictable, as it's one of your best GTFO aerials. Also, don't try to use it to recover instead of UpB. There are plenty of frames when Toon is swinging out in the open air that gives Diddy a perfect chance to spike you. Unless you've made it safely under the very edge of the stage, DON'T USE IT

Don't use FSmash lol. Diddy's FSmash>>>>>>yours. sry2say.

Use Dsmash. It comes out quick, and is great for gimping. But like Zair, keep it unpredictable.


That's pretty much it for now. I might add more pennies to the jar later on.

 

[.REMIX.]

Well, for those of you who have trouble with diidy, I suggest you try your best to use the naners to your advantage. If you throw them back at diddy he wont have much left to do to you after tripping if you dask attack him off the stage (after you succesfully hit him with the naner). OR you can hope that he misses a naner and it lands behind you. From there on in camp the naner and dont let diddy get it, wait till the naner dissapears and the start tossing diddy up into the air and try to keep him from pulling out any naners.

 

[QUIVO]

I don't find arrows to be that effective in this matchup unless you use them to edgeguard.

Diddy kick > arrows
If anything, arrows trade hits if the Diddy has a banana in hand.

I personally think Bombs are our best projectile against Diddy.
Diddy kick can't beat it and more importantly, bombs deflect bananas.

Baiting dash attacks/grabs, and then bomb throwing down/dropping can work, but get predictable and easily countered with his fair.

 

[Gnes]

This is easily 55:45 TL's favor, but could be 60:40.

Toon can easily out camp Diddy. Just be sure to shield his Peanuts.
Against Nanners, avoid them then keep one for yourself as long as possible. This prevents Diddy from vaving complete stage control. Unless you're sure you're gonna land BCDS, then DON'T LET GO OF THE NANNER. An exception to this would be if you're launched into the air. Airdodge ASAP, throw the nanner back onstage if possible, then whip out a bomb. With this you can either disrupt his attempts to edgeguard, or use it to get another UpB back.

SPAM ARROWS
Arrows are your -best- fwends. Use them to mess with his recovery, approach, GT, etc. Use them to camp(duh). Use them to long-range edgeguard. Use them the instant yhe chance presents itself.

Also, your boomerang is prolly your second best friend in this matchup. Use it as you would arrows, but aslo use it to cancel out(or at least mess up the trajectory of) nanners. Also, use it as a GTFO move, along with USmash.

Bair is essential here. Not many of Toon Links aerials outprioritize or comeout faster than those of Diddy's. Bair is an exception. This would probably be a better choice for approaching or disrupting nanners. Also, when on the ledge: Don't Ledgehop->Fair. Drop down, wall jump, then buffer a Bair. It's infinitely safer than other aerials, especially on stges with curved lips like Battlefield and FD.

Use Zair in conjuction with Bombs, Arrows, Bair, and Boomerang. Just don'tabuse it. Keep it unpredictable, as it's one of your best GTFO aerials. Also, don't try to use it to recover instead of UpB. There are plenty of frames when Toon is swinging out in the open air that gives Diddy a perfect chance to spike you. Unless you've made it safely under the very edge of the stage, DON'T USE IT

Don't use FSmash lol. Diddy's FSmash>>>>>>yours. sry2say.

Use Dsmash. It comes out quick, and is great for gimping. But like Zair, keep it unpredictable.


That's pretty much it for now. I might add more pennies to the jar later on.

Hmmm...okay...first
Toon link cannot camp diddy as effectively as u believe. He would have to air camp, which will lead him into one of the situations a diddy wants most, a chr. being above him. Boomerang is by far the most useless of the items, Bombs being the most. Arrows are only useful in stopping diddy's momentum, other than that, not much will come from those, especially since its extremely easy to just PS them all. Bombs are amazing simply because they cant be PS'ed, and can lead into stuff.

Dont get me wrong, your bair is good, just not better than Diddy's. Diddys come hits on frame 5 while your hits on 6/7...im not sure. Regardless, Diddy's is faster.

No diddy in his right mind would try to go off stage against a Tink, hes obviously asking for death.

Lastly, Doesnt Tinks D-smash have a decent amount of lag afterwards. Its safer to Up smash considering thats actually hard to punish effectively.

 

[PhantomX]

Diddys come hits on frame 5 while your hits on 6/7...im not sure. Regardless, Diddy's is faster.

Disgusting Freudian slip?

 

[TheJerm]

I dont think diddys bair is better than TLs.. thats just preference. Guy talking about the arrow stuff, you gave me an idea. But gness is right, bombs are our best option for the matchup. Once you learn to control banana's, you just have to keep your momentum.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Nah, Diddy's bair isnt better than TL's. 1 frame doesnt matter when we have more range and combo ability with it .

 

[Weruop]

pretty sure TLs bair is better. frame adv. isnt everythang

 

[WindMajor]

I don't think this is news to anyone, but if you can stop the momentum on Diddy's bananas, you can pretty much win the match. If I'm not mistaken, Diddy doesn't have many kill moves. There are stages that can minimize his bananas, like RC, although I'd imagine Diddy doing pretty well in that stage too. Neutral stages are bad in this match up, since flat areas dominate the map.

So all TL has to do is stop Diddy's momentum. How can we do it?
-Avoid any thrown banana. If you can catch it, it's best to air dodge catch it. Radori said that you can SH>Nair>Catch it. Use that.
-When we catch a banana, use it wisely. Throw it AT Diddy so he can fall from it. If you throw it at the ground near him, it better be because you have a 2nd banana in your hand. Otherwise, he'll just grab it from the ground and toss it.

Remember, we can JC throw the bananas. Don't forget it.

TL Bair > Diddy's Bair. Not that it matters. We aren't gonna be Bairing each other the whole match.