Toon Link Matchup Rediscussion #1: Metaknight

[TLMSheikant]

The Metaknight Matchup Rediscussion Thread

65:35 Strong Disadvantage


Frame Data for MK: Go here if you want to compare mk's frame data with TL's.

Down Tilt

frame breakdown:
1-2 startup
3-4 hitbox out
5-15 cooldown

frame summary:
Hits on frame: 3
IASA frame: 16
Cooldown: 11
Shield hitlag differential: 0
Shield stun: 1
Shield advantage: -11
Shield drop advantage: -4


Forward Tilt

frame breakdown:
1-2 startup
3-4 1st hit hitbox out
5
6-7 2nd hit hitbox out
8
9-10 3rd hit hitbox out
11-40 cooldown

frame summary:
duration: 40
1st hit on: 3
2nd hit on: 6
3rd hit on: 9
1st hit cooldown: 19
2nd hit cooldown: 30
3rd hit cooldown: 30
Shield hitlag differential: 0
Shield stun: 1 for all hits

1st hit advantage:
Shield advantage: -19
Shield drop advantage: -11

2nd and 3rd hit advantage:
Shield advantage: -30
Shield drop advantage: -23

Hitstun first hit: 16 base of blade (-4 advantage), variable at tip*
Hitstun second hit: variable*

*what happens here is that the attack pops the character up a bit, and when they land they have 4 frames of landing lag. The advantage mk has here is dependent on how long they are in the air... which is determined by their current %, weight, and fall speed. This is really a project in and of itself, but from what I looked at the first hit of his ftilt can actually yield a + advantage when your oppenent is in mid-high %.


Up Tilt

frame breakdown:
1-7 startup
8-18 hitbox out
19-35 cooldown

frame summary:
Hits on frame: 8
IASA frame: 36
cooldown: 17
shield hitlag differential: 0
shield stun: 2
shield advantage: -25
shield drop advantage: -18


Forward Smash

frame breakdown:
1-23 startup
24-25 hitbox out
26-41 cooldown

frame summary:
Hits on frame 24
IASA frame: 42
Cooldown: 17
Shield hitlag differential: 0
Shield stun: 5
Shield advantage: -12
Shield drop advantage: -5


Down Smash

frame breakdown:
1-4 startup
5-6 hitbox out
7-9
10-11 hitbox out
12-34 cooldown

frame summary:
hits on frame 5 front and frame 10 back
IASA frame: 35
Cooldown front: 28
Cooldown back: 23
Shield hitlag differential: 0
Shield stun front: 4
Shield stun back: 4
Shield advantage front: -25
Shield drop advantage front: -18
Shield advantage back: -20
Shield drop advantage back: -13

Up Smash

frame breakdown:
1-7 startup
8-9 hitbox out
10-11
12-13 hitbox out
14-16
17-18 hitbox out
19-49 cooldown

frame summary:
1st hit on: 8
2nd hit on: 12
3rd hit on: 17
IASA frame: 50
Shield hitlag differential: 0
All hits shield stun: 1
Cooldown: 31
Sheild advantage: -31
Shield drop advantage: -24



Neutral Air

frame breakdown:
1-2 startup
3-4 strong hitbox out
5-25 weak hitbox out
26-31 aerial cooldown

frame summary:
Hits on frame: 3
IASA frame: 32
Aerial cooldown: 6
Landing lag: 15
Autocancels on: 25
Shield hitlag differential strong hit: 0
Shield hitlag differential weak hit: -1
Shield stun strong hit: 4
Shield stun weak hit: 1
Optimal shield advantage strong hit: -11
Optimal shield drop advantage strong hit: -4
Optimal shield advantage weak hit: -15
Optimal shield advantage weak hit: -8
*Optimal shield advantage weak hit autocanceled: -2
*Optimal shield shield drop advantage weak hit autocanceled: +5

* Note that doing this is unrealistic because of how the nair works. It would be very difficult to hit a shield with the weak hitbox and then immediately land into the ac point. You would most all the time be hitting the top area of the shield and then falling until you land.


Forward Air

frame breakdown:
1-5 startup
6-7 hitbox out
8-9
10-11 hitbox out
12
13-14 hitbox out
15-39 aerial cooldown

frame summary:
1st hit on: 6
2nd hit on: 10
3rd hit on: 13
IASA frame: 40
Aerial cooldown: 25
Landing lag: 15
Autocancels on: 21
Shield hitlag differential: 0
Shield stun: 1
Optimal shield advantage: -8
Optimal shield drop advantage: -1


Back Air

frame breakdown:
1-6 startup
7-8 hitbox out
9-12
13-14 hitbox out
15-19
20-21 hitbox out
22-45 aerial cooldown

frame summary:
1st hit on: 7
2nd hit on: 13
3rd hit on: 20
IASA frame: 46
Aerial cooldown: 24
Landing lag: 12
Autocancel on: 23
Shield hitlag differential: 0
Shield stun: 1
Optimal shield advantage: -3
Optimal shield drop advantage: +4


Down Air

frame breakdown:
1-3 startup
4-5 hitbox out
6-25 aerial cooldown

frame summary:
hits on frame: 4
IASA frame: 26
Aerial cooldown: 20
Landing lag: 15
Autocancels on: 24
Shield hitlag differential: 0
Shield stun: 2
Optimal shield advantage: -13
Optimal shield drop advantage: -6
Shield advantage without landing: -18
Shield drop advantage without landing: -11


Up Air

frame breakdown:
1 startup
2-3 hitbox out
4-13 aerial cooldown

frame summary:
Hits on: 2
IASA frame: 14
Aerial cooldown: 10
Landing lag: 12
Autocancels on: 21
Shield hitlag differential: 0
Shield stun: 2
Optimal shield advantage: -10
Optimal shield drop advantage: -3



Dash Attack

frame breakdown:
1-4 startup
5-11 hitbox out
12-31 cooldown

frame summary:
Hits on frame: 5
IASA frame: 32
Cooldown: 20


Grab

frame breakdown:
1-5 startup
6-7 grab hitbox out
8-29 cooldown

frame summary:
Hits on frame: 6
IASA frame: 30
Cooldown: 22


Dash Grab

frame breakdown:
1-7 startup
8-9 hitbox out
10-39 cooldown

frame summary:
Hits on frame: 8
IASA frame: 40
Cooldown: 30


Pivot Grab

frame breakdown:
1-7 startup
8-9 hitbox out
10-34 cooldown

frame summary:
hits on frame: 8
IASA frame: 35
cooldown: 24


Mach Tornado

minimum time frame breakdown:
1-11 startup
12-58 hitbox out
59-87 cooldown (this is a grounded nado)

maximum time frame breakdown
1-11 startup
12-104 hitbox out

Cooldown: this is interesting. Cooldown will ALWAYS be 29 frames. Landing lag adjusts to this. So if your nado ends in midair and you free fall for 10 frames your landing lag will be 19 frames. The botched up landing is 30 frames.


Grounded Shuttle Loop

frame breakdown:
1-7 startup
5-8 invincibility frames
8-13 strong hitbox out
14-21
22-31 weak hitbox out

frame summary:
Hits on frame: 8
IASA frame: 32


Aerial Shuttle Loop

frame summary:
hits on frame: 8
IASA frame: 38


Dimmensional Cape

frame breakdown:
1-17
18-27 invincibility frames
28-54 cooldown

frame summary:
cooldown: 27
total invincibility frames:10

notes:
- despite MK turning invisible on frame 13, he does not receive invincibility frames until frame 18
- MK can move around starting on frame 14

Spot Dodge Lasts 25 Frames
Invincible Frames 2 – 20

Roll Backward Lasts 33 Frames
Invincible Frames 4 – 12

Roll Forward Lasts 23 Frames
Invincible Frames 5 – 12

Air Dodge Lasts 39 Frames
Invincible Frames 3 – 28


Best stage to fight Metaknight on:

Other good stages to fight Metaknight on:
-Delfino Plaza
-Halberd
-Pirate Ship (if legal)
-Smashville
-Green Greens (if legal).


Worst stage to fight Metaknight on:

Other stages you should avoid:
-Jungle Japes
-Castle Siege
-Battlefield
-Frigate Orpheon
-Luigi's Mansion (if legal).

Summary:

Meta Knight is an agile character with a nearly lagless moveset making him very overwhelming at times to fight. Luckily, Toon Link is good at playing keepaway even against Meta Knight. Bombs help a lot in this matchup mainly due to breaking the tornado and because they can be used whenever you're under pressure.

If a Meta Knight starts down air camping (using his jumps and down air to stay above you and pressure you), you can run away and throw an angled up boomerang, or run below him and throw a bomb up or be risky and use back air. When he grabs and down throws you, you have the option of DI'ing to the side and zair limiting a lot of his followups. However, a good Meta Knight will pick up on this and tornado the next time so make sure to mix it up. The problem with the matchup is that Meta Knight can gimp Toon Link very easily. His down air and offstage edeguarding game are probably the best in the game.

However, Toon Link can still make it back to the stage. Boomerang helps a lot to stop a dairing Meta Knight in his tracks. Always have a bomb in hand when offstage. Bombs can save you from getting gimped in a a variety of ways: 1- You can recover low with one in hand, throw it up toward Meta Knight, double jump up B safely to the ledge. 2- Throw the bomb backwards and use back air to defend yourself. 3- Hold the bomb after getting hit by his down air (DI it upwards) so that when you upB, you get another upB doubling your chances for recovery. You can also use upair if you are not holding a bomb, it will beat Meta Knight's dair.

His most common kill moves are down smash, neutral air and shuttle loop. Against down smash DI up, bair and fast fall, you can also use double jump dair to recover high. Against nair, DI up and momentum cancel with bair. Against grounded shuttle loop, DI to the side and against aerial shuttle loop, DI up. Also, invincibomb is great in this matchup. It can beat an aerial shuttle loop and it's great for landing onstage.

Moves to watch out for:
Forward Tilt, Down Tilt, Forward air, Down air, Upair, Neutral Air, Mach Tornado, Shuttle Loop, Down throw, Down Smash, Forward Smash.

Moves that are very useful in this matchup:
Bombs, Back Air, Zair, Upsmash, Upair, Boomerang. NOTE: This is just a list of moves that work very well in the matchup but dont be discouraged from using other moves to mix it up.

Common Metaknight Strategies and how to overcome them:

Dair camping

One of the most common MK strategies. Mk uses his multiple jumps in conjunction with his fast, trascendent priority down air to camp and put pressure on you at the same time. To beat this, stay away from the down air and look for an opening to throw a bomb up, if they airdodge it follow the airdodge and punish. Our back air/upair also beats his down air if you space them properly.


Tornado

bombs! Angled up shield. Pivot grab *risky*


Down throw followups/setups

DI to the side and zair to avoid most followups. If the mk catches on and starts using tornado to beat your zair, then DI up and jump away or DI to the side and land with your shield angled up.


TL;DR- Camp him as much as you can, be patient, use bombs to force mistakes and punish them and don't get gimped.

The old discussion is here for reference: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=192975

The thread is still open for discussion of the matchup.

 

[Hyro]

One of my favorite matchups. Personally I think it's like...50-50...but more realistically, 60-40 Meta Knight.

Onstage we stand a chance with our projectiles. Especially bombs. You need to predict when you'll get shuttle looped and iBomb. iBomb is veeeery important in this matchup. The only reason it's in mk's favor is offstage game. You're probably gonna get gimped. It's not hard. When recovering, throw bombs and boomerang to stop yourself from getting gimped, or try throwing a bomb backwards and bairing back on stage. When you get dthrown, DI down and zair MK so you don't get comboed. If you're by the edge, DI down and zair so you'll tether the edge, but immediatley tap z again so you'll pull up to the stage. When they're spamming grounded shuttle loop, run behind it and bair them. When they tornado you, shield and tilt up so you don't get shieldpoked. Don't airdodge when recovering or they'll wait for it and gimp you. Just think about how predictable airdodging is.

1. Turn around and bair when recovering.
2. Bombs > Tornado
3. Angled Boomerang > Grounded Shuttle Loop
4. iBomb > Aerial Shuttle Loop
5. Zair > Dthrow

Just think about it, Meta Knight has no projectiles, you have 3 and a hookshot. You just have to predict what Meta Knights gonna do. When you're in the air, always, always, always expect the shuttle loop. A good strategy is air camping and just raining bombs. Watch you're arrow cancels, Meta Knights shield dash is quick. If they get to close, retreat. Better yet, don't stop retreating.

 

[rocklee10]

HR pretty much got it, but I'd say it's 65-35, mainly because your easily gimped, and our ground game & air game beats yours, aside from that, MK catches bombs quit easily.

A tip on beating MK, it's good to camp, just not to much, remember, nado goes through all your moves, except Dair, Bombs, and I believe Zair. So at far range, make him approach you, and when he does, he'll probably do it with nado, and if you shield through it, (It will probably be half over when he gets to you anyway, on stages as long as FD) you have as many options as Sakurai gave you, so combo the heck out of him. As for mind games, if you just camp, retreat, camp, retreat, camp, and keep doing that, the MK will either get mad and spam nado, which a good TL can punish, or the MK will smartly find a way around your strategy, so I guess it's a judgement call on your part.

I'm not the best MK in the world, but I've had alot of experience with TL, he was my first main lol. So I hope this helps.

 

[A~Kid/ToonethLinkage]

I'd say the matchup is about 60 - 40 MK or (in my world) 55 - 45 MK.
I've faced MK a lot, almost everyday cause my friend is a really good MK and I've had to face him A LOT. I've been able to beat him by spacing, and patience, when he uses his whorenado, just throw a bomb, or an iBomb. It will go right through his nado. When you think he'll do his SL just iBomb again. When he tries to gimp your recovery try throwing a boomerang at him (doesn't always work) but he might gimp you anyways =/. Also when he tries to go for the kill expect A LOT of dsmashes right after a cancelled SL. It is practically unpunichable so try to do a retreating Zair or Nair, and use your arrow cancels alot, Almost after every SH aerial. Either way the matchup should be at most 60 -40 MK's favor.

 

[noodles]

One of my favorite matchups. Personally I think it's like...50-50...but more realistically, 60-40 Meta Knight.

Onstage we stand a chance with our projectiles. Especially bombs. You need to predict when you'll get shuttle looped and iBomb. iBomb is veeeery important in this matchup. The only reason it's in mk's favor is offstage game. You're probably gonna get gimped. It's not hard. When recovering, throw bombs and boomerang to stop yourself from getting gimped, or try throwing a bomb backwards and bairing back on stage. When you get dthrown, DI down and zair MK so you don't get comboed. If you're by the edge, DI down and zair so you'll tether the edge, but immediatley tap z again so you'll pull up to the stage. When they're spamming grounded shuttle loop, run behind it and bair them. When they tornado you, shield and tilt up so you don't get shieldpoked. Don't airdodge when recovering or they'll wait for it and gimp you. Just think about how predictable airdodging is.

1. Turn around and bair when recovering.
2. Bombs > Tornado
3. Angled Boomerang > Grounded Shuttle Loop
4. iBomb > Aerial Shuttle Loop
5. Zair > Dthrow

Just think about it, Meta Knight has no projectiles, you have 3 and a hookshot. You just have to predict what Meta Knights gonna do. When you're in the air, always, always, always expect the shuttle loop. A good strategy is air camping and just raining bombs. Watch you're arrow cancels, Meta Knights shield dash is quick. If they get to close, retreat. Better yet, don't stop retreating.

someone tried that on me and i just did down throw to nado the next time

 

[Power of Slash]

I prefer this matchup to the Olimar matchup.

While I don't really have much to contribute other than what I think the ratio is, HyRo covered a bunch of what we can do already.

With that said 60:40.

I'm not really feeling like this would be our 70:30 matchup.

 

[MJG]

Basically...dont try to fight this match near the ledge or off stage obviously...your dead against a good MK who will bait you...even if you mix your recovery up, our chances are slim to none to returning back on stage

I find staying in Mid-range in this match up helps a lot then the only issue from this point is his tornado which we can bomb like stated above or we can Dair MK out of it (my personal favorite), we can also Grab him out of it and our zair and boomerang will knock him out by only if the Tornado was just started..other than that, i know that a fully charged arrow will knock him out of it...these are all situational and the last is iffy...but its still there...bombs will be your best friend. When keeping MK at this range, we can hit and run without him closin in on us too fast if we try to play it too safe...A lot of MKs like to spot dodge into a Down Smash (surprising, i know) 80% of the time and the other 20, they will attempt to grab us...


Im not really sure how this would help but MK has one of the slowest (if not the slowest) vertical Aerial Movement with his aerials (Other than Shuttle loop AKA broken as hell attack at 23821387128321 Miles Per Hour). This should be basic knowledge for all smashers...if you see a MK doing shuttle loop and you cant counter him by coming behind him and attacking, then hold your shield and expect a down smash immediately because MK users will just Slash you RIGHT before they hit the ground to prevent any lag. They do that towards the end of their tornado as well..

Other than that, Hyro covered most of the basics of this match up

@Power of Slash

Id rather play a MK then olimar, and definitely wario (idk why i fail against them so much >.<)

I have to play against my friend Fino almost everyday offline who mains olimar (2nd or 3rd best in midwest? idk @.@) and that match up almost made me want to quit the game -.-

I had to be aggressive just to stand a chance since we can out prioritize olimar...but that is a whole different discussion for a different day)

In conclusion, i still say screw MK...but its not a complete disaster for toons.

65:35 MK only because of his ability to gimp us easily.

 

[NearZzz]

HyRo pretty much said it all here.
Especially the iBomb thing, he used it against me, suuuuuuuuper effective.

I feel like its 65:35 though, MK can just shut down everything you do, and its doesn't work the other way either.

 

[Pho]

I got too lazy and switched to Diddy to deal with MK. It's just annoying that the one main thing we use against the whorenado and SL is a bomb. One option that is slow in comparison to the many options MK can use to **** Toon Link.

 

[demonictoonlink]

I wish I could contribute more, but I almost always switch characters for this...
Regardless, for now I would like to say at least IMHO, DO NOT USE ARROWS!!! Maybe, and this is a big maybe, the occasional Zair, Nair, the QD, but Bombs and Rang work SO much better. MKs speed just wins arrows...

 

[Hyro]

someone tried that on me and i just did down throw to nado the next time

Only a couple MK's I've played realized this after a couple of downthrows, after this we can start DI'ing UP and dairing them out of tornado's or simply jump. But an average MK wouldn't think of it.

And yeah, arrow cancels vs a pro MK is a stupid idea. Their going to sheild when they think you're going to arrow cancel, so save yourself the lag. MK's shieldash is ridiculous. Focus on bomb spam. Always have a bomb out and you're safe. You can still shoot arrows, boomerangs, up B and zair with a bomb in hand. When they get annoyed and tornado, shut it down.

This is not our worst matchup...gotta be Marth...

 

[Smith]

Lee ***** ya that hard John?

 

[Popertop]

Hyro, Falco/Ice Climbers has to be pretty bad right?

also, TL is brokn

 

[copacetic]

This is honestly my favorite matchup after snake. 55-45 MK I'd say. It's really not as bad as people say. Hyro covered most of it. But you can also bair the nado if you can't get above it and don't have a bomb.

And don't we have a grab release -> usmash on mk? probably not a guaranteed combo though, but still a good option for a kill

Edit: Falco is pretty bad for us, but our bombs help take out a lot of the ICs' game. Marth is probably our worst

 

[TheJerm]

Lol, pop, ice climbers arent hard for TL. Hyro, I think your just mentally destroyed by lee. Marth isnt that bad. Olimar is our worst match up.

For MK, just focus on not getting gimped and its not that hard from there.

 

[Bshaw718]

hmm lets not forget that any good mk knows to stay in TL's face and attack quickly and effectively before TL has the chance to react...that's what most mks try to accomplish on me

 

[Lobos]

Just to add on from what others said.....from playing the best MKs to some of the worst its either 60-40 or 55-45 MK.........Only do to the fact that once we get off stage its a real brag to get back on. On stage we can **** MK, also dair > shuttle loop which can lead to a spike if timed perfect lol. Also we can annoy the hell out of MK if they don't know how to fight us. Planking shouldn't work vs TL if you know what to do. An aggressive MK will get punished if you know how to play defensively. The only MKs to ever truly give me any trouble are M2K and Dojo.....everyone else is beatable lol

/cocky

 

[A~Kid/ToonethLinkage]

Lol, pop, ice climbers arent hard for TL. Hyro, I think your just mentally destroyed by lee. Marth isnt that bad. Olimar is our worst match up.

For MK, just focus on not getting gimped and its not that hard from there.

FINALLY! Someone agrees with me that Olimar is our hardest match-up. I hate that little fu*ker >=(
Marth is bad but Olimar is much worse for me. I have no idea how to deal with him. I usually lose against him.

 

[Power of Slash]

FINALLY! Someone agrees with me that Olimar is our hardest match-up. I hate that little fu*ker >=(
Marth is bad but Olimar is much worse for me. I have no idea how to deal with him. I usually lose against him.

Hey hey hey now.

I've always been on the "I think Olimar is 70-30" train. But that's for the Olimar discussion whenever it pops back up again.

After tinkering with this matchup a bit more, I still stand by the 60-40 opinion I gave earlier, but I also have nothing new to contribute. Most situations I've run into have been covered already.

Battlefield and Yoshi's Island are total nightmares for me vs. MK though. If that counts.

 

[Hyro]

Hyro, Falco/Ice Climbers has to be pretty bad right?

also, TL is brokn

Falcos pretty hard.

I'm pretty sure Toon Link is an IC's counter. Their not a problem.

But time out. Olimar? No way in hell. It's like 70-30 or 60-40 Toon Link.

Even Dabuz agrees with me, it's hard for Olimar if the Toon Link knows the matchup. Nair shakes off pimin, arrow stops his approach. Repetitive nair to arrow will **** Olimar. And we can broken dsmash them for the OHKO. They don't stand a chance...I'll get a vid for you guys if you want...

 

[Power of Slash]

I would love to get some advice for that Olimar matchup HyRo, but that's for when we discuss Olimar.

I have my own qualms with the matchup, and I would absolutely love for you to wreck them so I finally have an idea what to do in the matchup, But for now. Meta Knight.

But on a leaving note for that discussion, idk how you're even going to get that Dsmash gimp off at all seeing as Olimar can like grab you in a longer range than you can Dsmash. Not to mention that Fsmash.

 

[Jash]

55:45 Mk, Its not that hard because i do not know the matchup, but aggressive MKs can be difficult.

 

[BRLNK88]

I suppose Olimar can be easy, or a ***** of a match-up depending on your playing style.
If ur campy like me, his pikmin block all of Tink's projectiles, which forces you to approach, and thanks to Tink's light weight, his KO moves kill easy.
But I guess if you're aggressive and get in his face, you can get him off the stage and go for the easy gimp.
Overall though the match-up is definitely in Olimar's favor.
I've never actually faced a really good Olimar, none of my friends use him seriously, nor have any of my tourney opponents.

 

[TheJerm]

Falcos pretty hard.

I'm pretty sure Toon Link is an IC's counter. Their not a problem.

But time out. Olimar? No way in hell. It's like 70-30 or 60-40 Toon Link.

Even Dabuz agrees with me, it's hard for Olimar if the Toon Link knows the matchup. Nair shakes off pimin, arrow stops his approach. Repetitive nair to arrow will **** Olimar. And we can broken dsmash them for the OHKO. They don't stand a chance...I'll get a vid for you guys if you want...

Olimar is the only character that forces us to change our style so much. Cept maybe ic's .. but they force everyone to change. I'm not saying its an impossible match up, nor am I saying its in there favor. I'm saying its our hardest match up. Definitely not marth or MK.

 

[clowsui]

I'm pretty sure QUIVO hates this matchup the most...I think he's going to do MK dittos the next time he does it unless he's not tired or he feels motivated

on a miscellaneous note, jermy jerm~ q will be in tx soon, treat him well

 

[TheJerm]

Lol, i'll teach quivo how to handle MK. Annd of course I will treat him well ;]

 

[NeoCrono]

Lol, i'll teach quivo how to handle MK. Annd of course I will treat him well ;]

Awesome?
you should teach me as well lol
but MK can be difficult if they are aggressive, cause a good aggressive MK will get in TL face and stay in your face. but I believe Hyro basically cover all of the points (I'm with you Hyro, marth is our worst match-up)

 

[clowsui]

i mean he already knows how to play this matchup (he almost beat judge game 3 in tourney)

he just hates having to put forth a lot of effort towards it

 

[TLMSheikant]

K, I'll put it at 60:40 mk. I'll write the summary soon. . Do note that the discussion stays open even after Ive decided on a ratio. U can still discuss the matchup if u want .

 

[QUIVO]

I don't really hate the matchup, I just think MK is good enough to counter anything TL does and it's kinda stressful fighting him. Seriously, i think TL has to adapt the entire time..

I'm also never going to use MK just to beat MK... I do think my MK could do well though..

 

[MJG]

Falcos pretty hard.

I'm pretty sure Toon Link is an IC's counter. Their not a problem.

But time out. Olimar? No way in hell. It's like 70-30 or 60-40 Toon Link.

Even Dabuz agrees with me, it's hard for Olimar if the Toon Link knows the matchup. Nair shakes off pimin, arrow stops his approach. Repetitive nair to arrow will **** Olimar. And we can broken dsmash them for the OHKO. They don't stand a chance...I'll get a vid for you guys if you want...

Aggressive expansion...they cant do anything after that...a jab or a QD will get you out of grab (olimars priority is pathetic)

Anyways slash is right...for another day

And QUivo is also right, we have to adapt to everything...its too much work for one match

 

[Popertop]

but that's how he is played at the highest level.

being lazy holds your character back

 

[Power of Slash]

Anyways slash is right...for another day

Or you could go post in the discussion we have up right now.

 

[QUIVO]

I wouldn't say lazy.. I don't mind having to adapt. it's just mentally stressful and tiring playing Mk over and over... or just any character really. I have a hard time maintaining consistency throughout a tournament cause I get tired playing. It also could just be me and I'm over analyzing things... but you can't just go on auto pilot or have patterns otherwise a good MK can figure out strategies quickly.

 

[Popertop]

Yeah I know what you mean.

Just playing against Good players is stressful because you have to mix it up and think a lot to stay unpredictable.

 

[QUIVO]

Yea, I think it's more frustrating with MK than any other character though since he has so many options.

If i were to mix all the good MK strategies together vs a TL, it'd be way too hard to beat. I'd say Dojo is the closest thing right now..

 

[TheJerm]

Dojo just has more exp with TL than we have with MK. And he's good. Creating.. broken dojo.. who is soon to be beaten by jerm =]

 

[MJG]

Dojo just has more exp with TL than we have with MK. And he's good. Creating.. broken dojo.. who is soon to be beaten by jerm =]

Very good attitude :D and yea slash...i didnt realize that until i left the thread

I hate MK.
The End.

 

[Lee Martin]

70:30 mk. Toon Link is too slow and gets gimped too hard.

The mk should never do attacks which will get punished. As long as the Mk stays close and ReAcTs to the TL, I don't see what Toon Link could do. Fair puts Toon Link in the Worst position imo. Too easy shrimp pleezy. (for mk)

 

[TheJerm]

Mk's fair isnt a problem for us. Its mainly his dair. But there's ways around it. Its only slightly in MK's favor cause of his ability to gimp us.