Toon Link Matchup Rediscussion #1: Metaknight

TheJerm

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#43
We dont have any realy bad match ups. I have never lost to someone because my characters options was shut down. Cept maybe olimar and falco. But I've learned great methods against fighting falco, and I'm learning some things for olimar. Also, I did say MK was slightly in his favor.. 56-44 mk lol
 

Omnipik

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#44
Don't use zair with Toon, You might as well use a Fair, or Nair for more damage and knockout capability. Zair has good reach sure but it's pointless considering it deals almost no damage and projectiles are much better for camping and spacing. Nairs are useful against MKs Fair.
 

Pho

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#47
Don't use zair with Toon, You might as well use a Fair, or Nair for more damage and knockout capability. Zair has good reach sure but it's pointless considering it deals almost no damage and projectiles are much better for camping and spacing. Nairs are useful against MKs Fair.
I lol'd at this statement. You say to use other aerials instead of zair, yet you state to use nair, which last time I checked, zair -> nair combos. Landing a zair is a lot easier to land a hit than a nair.
 

copacetic

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#48
We have a lot of other followups to zair too, but for this one I suppose against mk it makes some sense, since most can powershield the zair and dash grab before the nair.

If we start seeing them do this, can we zair -> spotdodge in time? Just as a little prediction maneuver, maybe get in a free grab ourselves, and go for the grab release-> usmash! I really want to see if this all works now.

Also, again I ask, does grab-release-> usmash work? I haven't seen much of it for a few months, but haven't heard anything against it
 

Tiersr4Queers

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#49
pretty much what hyro said on the ratio. when meta tornados sheild thn slighly hold up so he wont pick you off the ground, ibombing very effective, try not to approach do it if the time is right zair/nair worx. dnt zair so much tho or u will get sheild grabbed. most meta followups aftr dwn grab, i use nair as soon as he's done with the dgrab so they wont fair. instead of up smashing alot, use ur up tilt. up tilt is important, since meta is so light. you can "ps" an aerial such as dair thn follow up with an up tilt. spot dodge to up tilt. and my favorite finishing move to do on meta Zair/upsmash.
 

MJG

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#50
pretty much what hyro said on the ratio. when meta tornados sheild thn slighly hold up so he wont pick you off the ground, ibombing very effective, try not to approach do it if the time is right zair/nair worx. dnt zair so much tho or u will get sheild grabbed. most meta followups aftr dwn grab, i use nair as soon as he's done with the dgrab so they wont fair. instead of up smashing alot, use ur up tilt. up tilt is important, since meta is so light. you can "ps" an aerial such as dair thn follow up with an up tilt. spot dodge to up tilt. and my favorite finishing move to do on meta Zair/upsmash.
Zair would be a better option against the Down throw as long as you DI down and away from Metaknight.

I did this against Affinity and Razors MK in our tourney sets for the midwest circuit last night.
 

Affinity

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#51
Zair would be a better option against the Down throw as long as you DI down and away from Metaknight.

I did this against Affinity and Razors MK in our tourney sets for the midwest circuit last night.
I remember Jerm doing this to me in WHOBO friendlies too. Works really well.
 

Radori Nighthawk

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#52
Just to add on from what others said.....from playing the best MKs to some of the worst its either 60-40 or 55-45 MK.........Only do to the fact that once we get off stage its a real brag to get back on. On stage we can **** MK, also dair > shuttle loop which can lead to a spike if timed perfect lol. Also we can annoy the hell out of MK if they don't know how to fight us. Planking shouldn't work vs TL if you know what to do. An aggressive MK will get punished if you know how to play defensively. The only MKs to ever truly give me any trouble are M2K and Dojo.....everyone else is beatable lol

/cocky
In regards the Olimar matchup Nair to QD will be your main weapon here. Keep an eye from opportunities to Down Smash gimp. :D Try to KO him BEFORE he KO's you. It'll be tougher for the Olimar this way.

I have to agree with Lobos here. MK's are annoying but I hate Marth's SOO much more. Bombs are nice vs MK. I ONLY arrow cancel if it's from a full hop barrage of projectiles. I've fought a couple MK's and didn't do to badly. I've even 2 stocked Yosters MK. Lobos saw me do it. <3
 

Sosuke

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#56
Wow, Sheikant.

I'm actually very impressed with the OP. Good job.
 

Kaffei

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#58
Don't use zair with Toon, You might as well use a Fair, or Nair for more damage and knockout capability. Zair has good reach sure but it's pointless considering it deals almost no damage and projectiles are much better for camping and spacing. Nairs are useful against MKs Fair.
I'm sorry, but anyone who says not to use Zair as TL is just...... -_-
 
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#59
Something I haven't seen is the use of down air, which actually has a LOT of priority over MKs moves, tornado, upair, shuttle loop. I think its very useful to use if MK is trying to chase you in the air, and if you miss its not likely for you to get punished unless MK is close to the ground.
 

Thebest1pj

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#60
Something I haven't seen is the use of down air, which actually has a LOT of priority over MKs moves, tornado, upair, shuttle loop. I think its very useful to use if MK is trying to chase you in the air, and if you miss its not likely for you to get punished unless MK is close to the ground.
dair rapes mk all day lol i bait with it dair at a distance where when they approach i sidedodge then dsmash second hit gets em gg mk. Your the guy i played in doubles i was the red tl lol
 

MJG

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#61
Something I haven't seen is the use of down air, which actually has a LOT of priority over MKs moves, tornado, upair, shuttle loop. I think its very useful to use if MK is trying to chase you in the air, and if you miss its not likely for you to get punished unless MK is close to the ground.
Im pretty sure someone mentioned dair countering tornado

Im sure it counters up air as well but i usually just try to get back down when i get hit with up air, which is usually at low percentages and its hard to avoid since it comes out in 3 frames i think?

If you use dair when MK uses shuttle loop, it just trades hits
 

Self Distructo

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#62
ahahaha, didn't I tell you about dairing tornado mjg? like some time ago.

And it doesn't always trade hits, i sometimes spike mk out of his shuttle loop.

I spam dair against mk, that makes me pro.
 

Sosuke

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#63
Dair isn't very effective against tornado if the MK knows how to move correctly after you DI out of it.
 
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#64
Dair isn't very effective against tornado if the MK knows how to move correctly after you DI out of it.
Talking about if you manage to avoid his tornado and if you're above him, not if he catches you with it, in any case the smartest option would be to space yourself so s/he won't do it again.

Yeah I wasn't completely sure about the shuttle loop thing, its a very awkward move but usually whenever a MK uses it and I d-air I usually spike them onto the stage.

Im sure it counters up air as well but i usually just try to get back down when i get hit with up air, which is usually at low percentages and its hard to avoid since it comes out in 3 frames i think?
Yeah I consider it situational, it really just depends how much space you have because they might be able to take advantage of the lag you have before you initiate the dair, whenever I'm high above and they're trying to chase me in the air though the d-air never seems to fail.
 

MJG

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#65
Yea, then its pretty smart to execute it

OMG DIstructo..YES!
Thanks for the tip about the dair on the tornado.

When i have pulled it off, they just dont use it as much (at least the MKs that i have faced)

Bombs and dair are pretty much my only way of countering tornado
 

Kaffei

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#66
Yea, then its pretty smart to execute it

OMG DIstructo..YES!
Thanks for the tip about the dair on the tornado.

When i have pulled it off, they just dont use it as much (at least the MKs that i have faced)

Bombs and dair are pretty much my only way of countering tornado
What do I do if I see an MK about to SL gimp
 

MJG

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#67
What do I do if I see an MK about to SL gimp
try not to get in that situation in the first place

If you are sent off stage, try to fast fall and get back on stage as soon as possible

Heres some things that you can do when recovering

Pull a bomb>Throw it AWAY from MK>Bair while returning back on stage

Pull a bomb>Throw your boomerang at MK>Return to the stage

This has been mentioned but i have never tried it

Pull a bomb>Get close to the edge and use Up B sooner than you normally would

This last one is only somewhat safe if the MK is hanging on the ledge

As you are trying to recover, jump up and use Up air. This will send MK away from toonlink and give you another chance to continue on with the battle. On Battlefield, this can result in a stage spike if the MK just drops down and attempts to dair toonlink.

Oh..Ibomb works pretty well against MK, seeing as how they tend to run into a lot until they finally catch on and stay grounded while you are in the air
 

.REMIX.

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#68
I'd Say a great move on meta is his Up - B, It great and its imposible for meta to DI out of it. Zair is 1 of his greatest ways to follow up into his up - b. it also puts a good 13 damage on him.
 
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#72
Welll now that this thread is already bumped, I guess I'll mention this. Sheikant is wondering if we should change the match up to 35:65 MK. He feels that we're underestimating MK and that it shouldn't be 40:60, and I agree.

Discuss.
 

bad habiT

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#77
Meteor smashing(Dair spikes) is/are possible against MK, especially when you footstool.

It's always risky though but in certain situations its the only way to even things up
when MK gets the initial ledge grab or gimp.

Dair works well against MK when you DI into it at the peak of shuttle loop, and when you bounce on his shield following up with a boomerang into a Fair or Nair.

Ibomb is proven, Zair works it's wonders.

Meta Knights underestimate us.
 

KaosBombix

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#78
I think this matchup can be 60-40 for MK ! for the Neutral B, you have your bomb, for the bup you can drop the bomb after a jump ... But MK is good for play against TL !
 
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