Toon Link in Brawl+

[VietGeek]

I like fads too. So instead of cluttering the Impractical Moves thread, let's make a separate thread for our "buffs wishlist"

Even the Game & Watch mains are doing it so we can too (insert picture of Anime ambition, fist-raised, fire in eyes, note slight sarcasm, tipped glasses) -

I'll keep this brief as possible.

Toon Link benefited a lot from shieldstun, hitstun and hitlag modifications. With the buffer set to 10 frames, you can see he has lost none of his ATs from gravity modifications so he's one of the very few characters that you don't have to relearn as much.

He also benefits from momentum capture. Who doesn't love to run off the stage with a boomerang into fair gimp? That is like...really cool. Except when they DI and live. <_<

He has a lot of butter and bread combos, using his zair, bombs, boomerang, utilt, bair and nair to create redundant but effective strings.

He still has trouble killing, extremely predictable approach, and at higher percents all his combos become nearly obsolete. However this and his recovery are notable weaknesses that keep him in check. Overall he would theoretically be in middle B tier now in comparison to his former self.

If we want buffs, they should be small. Note that these are a handful of my own suggestions, and even with enough bribery support, only a handful of these may even be implemented. Note that demand brings supply, or something like that, so if you really want something, rally up and get it done.

I am working on fixing the TL D smash glitch as its on my list of things to do today actually.

For the rest of the suggestions we can definetly look into them, but have you considered other uses for the moves? Such as using dash attack as an edgeguard and such?

I dont have alot of time with TL so I dont know all his moves in depth, but I definetly know he is pretty beastly. If we can get some good suggestions and ways to fix his bad moves maybe we can.

Here is what I suggest -

Dash Attack - Slightly BKB on dash attack, or perhaps bigger growth. This allows it to be used as an edgeguard at more reasonable percents (bigger growth), while maintaining the ability to follow-up on it if it causes a trip (at lower percents). The first suggestion may be better over all though since it's terribly risky to land at lower %'s anyway.

Dtilt - increase trip rate I suppose. <_<

Ftilt - It's identical frame data wise to Marth's fsmash, so it should have *almost* same killing capacities of an untippered fsmash. Make it kill around 130. This is so it can be used as a last resort kill move, not a "kill once foe is past 180%."

Utilt - keep it. FFers can FF and tech at lower percents, decreasing knockback won't work. It's perfect and is suppose to allow a follow up from bair anyway.

Fsmash - If there's someway to prevent characters from SDi-ing out of it, or maybe adding IASA frames on the first hit, that would be great (seriously 50 frames of cooldown means Jiggs can Rest us <_<). Keep hitlag as it is as vBrawl hitlag made this move worthless.

Dsmash - remove the glitch and increase BKB. This thing doesn't kill until 130-145 on MIDWEIGHTS. TL is suppose to have a hard time killing but there's no way to combo into this and it's the worst kill move and still unsafe on shield. It should kill around 120% tbh.

It can also be DI'd out so the second hit doesn't do anything, or SDI'd so they can tech and have frame advantage.

Grounded UpB (aerial one is fine) - if there's a way to apply the wind hitbox of mach tornado that sucks the opponent in, that would be good. Increase damage output more when it's charged or something. Other than it should keep it's KB on the ground. It's not suppose to kill anyway.

Dair - It would be splendid if we could slow fall this like GnW. That and less overall lag in the air.

Or readd the fire effect for extra hitstun so meteor canceling it isn't so easy (or something).

 

[Steel]

"Toon Link is way too good in brawl+" commented Santi-sama, after playing it for 45 minutes at WHOBO.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

I think for his dash, we could make it pop up like young link's did in melee. this would allow some setups and a decent ground approach. i don't think many other buffs are necessary, though. he's a very good character as is.

 

[TLMSheikant]

But it doesnt hurt to buff his unused moves. I think the dsmash needs to be like in melee (horizontal knockback) and I agree with everything u said VG.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Please know that we will be reducing hitlag again in our next set. Raising it was a bandaid fix for a few problematc jabs being extremely hard to SDI out of (shiek, falco, ect.) Instead now we're going to attack those problems directly, by either implementing a slight lag increase (1 or 2 frames is enough to break the suction effect really) or by using the hitlag break point to make sure that only these moves that have low hitlag to start with aren't reduced by much.

Things like TL's f-smash will return to their 50 or 60% hitlag reduced glory

 

[VietGeek]

Even at 50% reduced hitlag some characters can still DI out relatively easily. Jiggs for example. Shanus put up a quick revised 4.0 with the old hitlag back for any interested.

But if adding IASA frames toward the end of the first hit of fsmash isn't feasible I suppose it's fine.

 

[Deleted member]

But it doesnt hurt to buff his unused moves. I think the dsmash needs to be like in melee (horizontal knockback) and I agree with everything u said VG.

Should we also buff MK's and Marth's unused moves?

 

[VietGeek]

Should we also buff MK's and Marth's unused moves?

Let's do it.

 

[Dark Sonic]

LMAO at your sig. Vanilla Icecream cone? Wow

 

[TLMSheikant]

Should we also buff MK's and Marth's unused moves?

Why not?????

 

[Almas]

More viable moves means more options, which means that the character is less easy to predict and play against.

If a character only had one move, but that move one-hit killed anyone, then the character still wouldn't be very good providing the move had a weakness (e.g. not shield-safe or laggy), because you'd always be able to counter them. Making a character more versatile directly makes them better, and Toon Link doesn't need to be better.

 

[CountKaiser]

A predictable character, no matter how ridiculous, can always be beaten.

 

[VietGeek]

A predictable character, no matter how ridiculous, can always be beaten.

This is why Toon Link can't have nice things.

 

[alvicala]

I am strongly in favor of only this one now:
>Young Link´s Dsmash: To avoid those ridicoulous kills at 0%-25% on the edges.

These are not necessary but wouldnt be bad implementations IMO:
>Dash attack: someone already said this, Tink´s dash attack could deal vertical knockback so it would be more useful for starting up combos. It would hurt the edgeguarding characteristics of this move though.
>No FF on Dair: Some people are against this because it would completely change the uses of his Dair but it would make it have more uses IMO.

I repeat, the only change I am strictly in favour of is the change to his DSMASH so it doesnt have that strange effect anymore (its ridicoulous how Tink can kil oponents with bad recoveries at 0% with only that move).

The other two are possibilities that I´ve heard before from other people that seem pretty reasonable to me. Dont know how the rest of the community feels about this two though.

 

[V-K]

Toon Link´s double Fsmash makes like 30% right?

 

[TLMSheikant]

^ 23%. His dsmash needs to have melee properties. That is all.


PS- not all lol his fsmash shouldnt be DI'd out of...if u land it u should be rewarded.

 

[VietGeek]

Toon Link´s double Fsmash makes like 30% right?

That's Link's. We're talking about the trash one that does 23% assuming both hits connect but they don't always (in vBrawl a competent opponent will NEVER get hit by it). It leaves you vulnerable to be killed by stuff like Luigi's Shoryuken and Jigg's rest FOR LANDING IT.

The main reason I play Brawl+ is to not be punished for actually hitting the opponent. ^_^

So far it seems the TL community is currently in favor of -

- Dash Attack hits up instead of being a weak semi-spike, allows it to be a combo move like Marth's Melee dash attack (Sorry Marth, your Side-B is currently lolz).

- Fixing Dsmash glitch in favor of it dealing horizontal knockback (I assume no knockback buff unlike my suggestion).

- No FF Dair - ???

- Someway to make Fsmash always connect if 1st hit connects or somehow make 1st hit safer if it fails (IASA frames).

 

[TLMSheikant]

We should disable DI in upB too Viet. And the slow fall Dair or a less duration one would be ok. The Dsmash could kill earlier but not much. Like 120 a little weaker than his usmash.

 

[Desire]

What happended to U smash? I say TL is fine in Brawl +. Now, Marf needs some BIG HELP. >_>


Brawl >>> Brawl + (S'up Viet)

 

[VietGeek]

What happended to U smash? I say TL is fine in Brawl +. Now, Marf needs some BIG HELP. >_>


Brawl >>> Brawl + (S'up Viet)

Usmash is fine, we don't need to buff it lol.

Marth doesn't need help. Refer to dashdance to Dancing Blade for more (DDDB) details. Support in adding the break in Shield Breaker again may be necessary when Viet gets fully charged high.

Refer to my avatar for your second statement.

 

[Smith]

I think Dair is fine.

Because of it being so fast, if you can land it at low %'s, and bounce on them again (dair getting them twice) you can hit them with Fair or Dair afterwards which is a pretty good combo.

 

[camelot]

I have an idea,

what if his f-smash made the opponent trip on the first hit? Then they couldn't get out as easily. If they are in the air when he hits them, instead of getting hit upward slightly (like it is now), hit them downward.

 

[Shell]

Easily? I don't think you could get out at all if you're right in the middle of a trip. Conversely, if they did have just enough time to roll out of the trip they'd get invincibility frames and the second hit would never hit -- the exact opposite effect you're going for. A little too all or nothing with that method for my tastes.

I don't play much Tlink, so I'll try to get a better feel for him before I comment on his need for buffs (which I suspect to be slim to non-existent, but we shall see).

 

[VietGeek]

I have an idea,

what if his f-smash made the opponent trip on the first hit? Then they couldn't get out as easily. If they are in the air when he hits them, instead of getting hit upward slightly (like it is now), hit them downward.

I like the second idea over the first one. The first one is made useless by Luigi's traction and stuff SHeLL said (Viet is not so observant heheh). <_<

I should take a look at how to modify attacks, maybe try some stuff out.

It's unfortunate that today is my last day of spring break. =(

 

[trojanpooh]

Yeah, dair is good. It adds to the differences between him and Link, and can catch your opponent off guard.

 

[Swordplay]

As a Link main I think we should just take that little ultra-gay Toon Link impostor out of the game LMAO.
(or at least permanently texture hack him because he is a sight for sore eyes) --all opinion based of course

Dair is fine especially with hitstun. It's much safer to combo into for a spike.
And I don't think TL needs the dash attack changed. TL is mr. camp o matic in B+. More than any other character.
He approaches in the air and ***** from there.


On to more important matters.


I can't wait till we get a decision from the admins about B+ character discussion. I wish threads like these would die. Mainly because B+ is still early in development and tournament results will be the real testing. Once we have those we can bring up certain characters that need tweaks.


However I think these threads should not remain as buff/nerf requests but current metagame discussion about your character.

 

[matt4300]

Holy God .... what? toon link is crazy in +. I hate to be the one to say it but he needs no buffs. Being a link main I am strongly against toon link being any better than link than he already is... infact links dsmash doesn't kill until higher percents than toon links and doesnt have that gay gimping ability next to the ledge.... His fsmash never hits both hits so it can only ever do less than toolinks. Rather than go on forever about how toonlink does moredamage (because he combos more) has more kill moves that are easily spamed, and has better projectiles (except bombs) and a much better recovery.... im just gonna say no... plain and simple... NO

EDIT: LOL SP you beat me

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

If you can kill easier with Toon Link than Link, then you're not playing Link right.

Toon Link needs a bit of help with his kill options. He's already good at gimping, so why don't we make the dair spike longer and end sooner?

In addition, fix that fsmash. Seriously. When I can play Jigglypuff and land a free combo because someone hit me with one of their "kill moves", something has gone wrong.

 

[Clever_Sleazoid]

If you can kill easier with Toon Link than Link, then you're not playing Link right.

Lol no. You wouldn't be playing Tink right.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Lol no. you wouldn't be playing Tink right.

Quite possible, but Link doesn't exactly have a lack of kill moves. Dair, uair, f and d smashes, UpB, utilt at high percentages, dtilt spike, and ftilt at high percentages.

Tink has dsmash, fsmash (good luck getting the second hit) fair at high percentages, bair at high percentages, uair, a few gimping options, and a spike that kills you if you miss.

I don't think it would hurt to make his forward smash actually work, do you? >_>

 

[matt4300]

Quite possible, but Link doesn't exactly have a lack of kill moves. Dair, uair, f and d smashes, UpB, utilt at high percentages, dtilt spike, and ftilt at high percentages.

Tink has dsmash, fsmash (good luck getting the second hit) fair at high percentages, bair at high percentages, uair, a few gimping options, and a spike that kills you if you miss.

I don't think it would hurt to make his forward smash actually work, do you? >_>

Tool link should be faster, more combo-y, but at the cost of range damage and kill power.... Right now hes fast, combo-y to the point of doing more damage than link, and his range means nothing becuase of his great projectiles and air speed. But above all eles hes kill power doesnt suffer like it should. He can combo into finishers and drag people ofstage for easy gimps and off the side kills. I guess what im saying is if you think tool link needs buffs your probley doing somthing wrong.

 

[Swordplay]

Yea but is stronger Link giving him more kill options but unlike Link Tink can somewhat combo into his finishers. Let's put this to rest.

Lets not talk about Link Tink comparisons. Just to back to Tink.

 

[VietGeek]

IMO the only thing that needs a buff/fix seriously is Fsmash. The rest is simply icing that the TL mains can dream of/wish for. I'd rather add sense back into this Barlw.

If we're to ignore Link/Tink comparisons, like many have said, compensation for removing the Dsmash glitch could be to make Dsmash have a horizontal trajectory over vertical. This means it won't be a worthless 145+ kill move (assuming you DI right methinks), and can set up for edgeguards, do something useful, blah, blah.

Anything else would probably be overdoing it. TL doesn't really need buffs (as I said before, if he was to receive any it was to be very few), since really odd game mechanics and Sakurai logic is really the only thing that consistently screws him over (oh wait that's like every non S and A tier in vBrawl).

Anyway at the moment threads like these don't serve much of a purpose yet other than being wishlists/what to do. B+ metagame is iffy since the only big region to accept it atm is MD/VA.

Also this:

This is all.