Toad/Captain Toad for Smash, Toad Brigade Assemble!

[Arcadenik]

Toads have always been major allies in the Mario franchise for a long time.

I know but there’s a difference between NPC and playable protagonist.

Toad was a NPC in most main Mario games. The only times Toad was playable in main Mario games were...

Super Mario Bros. 2 (1988)
New Super Mario Bros. Wii (2009)
New Super Mario Bros. U (2012)
New Super Luigi U (2013)
Super Mario 3D World (2013)

21 years gap... which was why Toad finally getting playable roles in main Mario games again was a big deal for Toad fans.

 

[fogbadge]

Toad would be a great left-field pick that everyone would agree with (kinda like Sephiroth).

trust me not everyone would agree with it

 

[Dan]

Toad definitely should've been chosen over Plant. I did not find the plant cute or funny... to me, Smash characters are precious cause they take so much time and effort to make but whatever; they might've just seen it as the continuation on G&W, ROB and DHD.

trust me not everyone would agree with it

Yeah they would... he's literally one of the most iconic gaming characters outside of Mario.

 

[Otoad64]

trust me not everyone would agree with it

yeah he has the problem most 1st parties do, most people don't think they're "hype enough"

 

[fogbadge]

Yeah they would... he's literally one of the most iconic gaming characters outside of Mario.

trust me ive had enough grief over the years to know wed have a lot of salt

 

[YoshiandToad]

See I think the thing is if Toad did ever get in, even if people would complain he wasn't 'hype' enough they'd have to begrudgingly accept he wasn't 'a waste of a slot'.

Talking of hype, this is a very personal thing but I think it's the least useful thing in roster discussion because hype is such a fleeting thing in the first place it only lasts a few weeks before everyone moves onto the next newcomer anyway.

Even long term Smash fan favourite Banjo was gotten over pretty damn quickly. If that's going to be the case I'd rather have big names that'll make sense in future titles rather than a brief Twitter crashing or Youtube Hit obtaining newcomer.

People in the Smash speculation circuit seem to be more obsessed with the hype surrounding the reveal more than the actual character and I find that really bizarre.

 

[Guynamednelson]

See I think the thing is if Toad did ever get in, even if people would complain he wasn't 'hype' enough they'd have to begrudgingly accept he wasn't 'a waste of a slot'.

Talking of hype, this is a very personal thing but I think it's the least useful thing in roster discussion because hype is such a fleeting thing in the first place it only lasts a few weeks before everyone moves onto the next newcomer anyway.

Even long term Smash fan favourite Banjo was gotten over pretty damn quickly. If that's going to be the case I'd rather have big names that'll make sense in future titles rather than a brief Twitter crashing or Youtube Hit obtaining newcomer.

People in the Smash speculation circuit seem to be more obsessed with the hype surrounding the reveal more than the actual character and I find that really bizarre.

Said people also wouldn't even find Sephiroth hype because Final Fantasy VII already had a fighter. Yet Sephiroth turned out to be well-received.

 

[YoshiandToad]

Said people also wouldn't even find Sephiroth hype because Final Fantasy VII already had a fighter. Yet Sephiroth turned out to be well-received.

Personally I really liked Sephiroth. I thought he was an excellent addition as one of gamings most notable villains.

I see people complain Eggman or Tails wouldn't be a good addition too because Sonic is already in. I don't understand this mindset. The obsession with new worlds and making it the biggest crossover ever seems to take precedence over what the individual characters make up.

I mean fair enough, I am bias as hell when it comes to Toad but he's also objectively one of the most recognisable video characters on the planet thanks to his role in the most successful video game series ever*.

I'd even argue more recognisable than half the Mario cast currently included.

*Pokémon has of all media, but Mario has Pikachu beat in pure video game sales.

 

[Dan]

trust me ive had enough grief over the years to know wed have a lot of salt

People would still respect the pick though, just like everyone respects Sephiroth.

Talking of hype, this is a very personal thing but I think it's the least useful thing in roster discussion because hype is such a fleeting thing in the first place it only lasts a few weeks before everyone moves onto the next newcomer anyway.

Thank you! So many people do not get this; I hate YouTube reaction culture, and it seems like they choose characters just based on reactions nowadays... take me back to the days when I found out the Melee newcomers via the guide at Walmart, or even when newcomers were randomly revealed on the Dojo.

People in the Smash speculation circuit seem to be more obsessed with the hype surrounding the reveal more than the actual character and I find that really bizarre.

I will never understand it either. It's just the byproduct of a self-obsessed society (to take it way too seriously lol).

 

[fogbadge]

I see people complain Eggman or Tails wouldn't be a good addition too because Sonic is already in.

now thats just sad

People would still respect the pick though, just like everyone respects Sephiroth.

no they wouldnt. never underestimate just how toxic people can be

 

[Oracle Link]

All these is why I think Toad and Captain Toad both should get in Smash. One of them is the default costume and the other is the alternate costume. Bandana Waddle Dee is fine as is... no need for regular Waddle Dee.

you could make a normal Waddle Dee/doo still a costume

 

[Arcadenik]

NintendoLife article about Kemco’s Crazy Castle series

The Game That Starred Mickey Mouse, Ghostbusters Or Garfield, Depending On Your Region

Navigating Kemco's Crazy Castle series

www.nintendolife.com

I played Bugs Bunny Crazy Castle on the NES when I was little and I loved it.

I just had an idea that Captain Toad would have been perfect for the Crazy Castle series.

Just imagine... Captain Toad: Crazy Castle

 

[fogbadge]

you could make a normal Waddle Dee/doo still a costume

a waddle doo? really?

Just imagine... Captain Toad: Crazy Castle

cant. only heard about the series for the first time recently. didnt even look at what it was

 

[Otoad64]

you could make a normal Waddle Dee/doo still a costume

I don't think they should, would make him seem less like an individual

 

[WaddleKing]

See I think the thing is if Toad did ever get in, even if people would complain he wasn't 'hype' enough they'd have to begrudgingly accept he wasn't 'a waste of a slot'.

Talking of hype, this is a very personal thing but I think it's the least useful thing in roster discussion because hype is such a fleeting thing in the first place it only lasts a few weeks before everyone moves onto the next newcomer anyway.

Even long term Smash fan favourite Banjo was gotten over pretty damn quickly. If that's going to be the case I'd rather have big names that'll make sense in future titles rather than a brief Twitter crashing or Youtube Hit obtaining newcomer.

People in the Smash speculation circuit seem to be more obsessed with the hype surrounding the reveal more than the actual character and I find that really bizarre.

Man words cannot describe how hard I agree with a lot of the things you tend to say.

 

[fogbadge]

Man words cannot describe how hard I agree with a lot of the things you tend to say.

not even " i agree"

 

[YoshiandToad]

NintendoLife article about Kemco’s Crazy Castle series

The Game That Starred Mickey Mouse, Ghostbusters Or Garfield, Depending On Your Region

Navigating Kemco's Crazy Castle series

www.nintendolife.com

I played Bugs Bunny Crazy Castle on the NES when I was little and I loved it.

I just had an idea that Captain Toad would have been perfect for the Crazy Castle series.

Just imagine... Captain Toad: Crazy Castle

Oh god, I completely forgot about this game.
It always bothered me why Sylvester(who was easily my favourite cartoon character ever as a little kid) was one of Bugs Bunny's enemies in this title since they barely overlapped in the Looney Tune cartoons. Knowing now that it was a Roger Rabbit game originally I have to assume Sylvester was chosen due to how easy he was to convert from the weasel sprites.

On topic, I wouldn't be against a few levels of these scattered throughout Captain Toad's more diorama based puzzle games, similar to how Odyssey had a few 2D Mario sections. Just a few to give a bit more gameplay diversity.

You're right that with the lack of jumping and the usage of warp pipes in this game, it seems like it'd be a solid fit for the Captain if there was ever any 2D sections introduced.

you could make a normal Waddle Dee/doo still a costume

I'd be up for maybe a Sailor Dee alt. I can understand why Bandana Waddle Dee fans would wish to seperate him more from regular Waddle Dees though.

 

[Oracle Link]

Oh god, I completely forgot about this game.
It always bothered me why Sylvester(who was easily my favourite cartoon character ever as a little kid) was one of Bugs Bunny's enemies in this title since they barely overlapped in the Looney Tune cartoons. Knowing now that it was a Roger Rabbit game originally I have to assume Sylvester was chosen due to how easy he was to convert from the weasel sprites.

On topic, I wouldn't be against a few levels of these scattered throughout Captain Toad's more diorama based puzzle games, similar to how Odyssey had a few 2D Mario sections. Just a few to give a bit more gameplay diversity.

You're right that with the lack of jumping and the usage of warp pipes in this game, it seems like it'd be a solid fit for the Captain if there was ever any 2D sections introduced.



I'd be up for maybe a Sailor Dee alt. I can understand why Bandana Waddle Dee fans would wish to seperate him more from regular Waddle Dees though.

I mean he of course is still Bandana Dee in Personality/Abilitys (outside of Beam rod of Course) i mean the same can be said about Darklink he is still as Jolly and nice as normal Link even though Dark-link most of the time is portraid as a evil mean Monster

 

[fogbadge]

Oh god, I completely forgot about this game.
It always bothered me why Sylvester(who was easily my favourite cartoon character ever as a little kid) was one of Bugs Bunny's enemies in this title since they barely overlapped in the Looney Tune cartoons. Knowing now that it was a Roger Rabbit game originally I have to assume Sylvester was chosen due to how easy he was to convert from the weasel sprites.

ive read that one entry in that series featured bugs bunny in japan, the ghostbusters in america and garfield in the PAL region. so if nothing else cap being the star of one is not that bizarre.

we should also take note of this game in smash speculation in general cause it is a good example of how tricky licencing can be. although im not sure toad, cap or toadette would have any trouble

 

[Dan]

NintendoLife article about Kemco’s Crazy Castle series

The Game That Starred Mickey Mouse, Ghostbusters Or Garfield, Depending On Your Region

Navigating Kemco's Crazy Castle series

www.nintendolife.com

I played Bugs Bunny Crazy Castle on the NES when I was little and I loved it.

I just had an idea that Captain Toad would have been perfect for the Crazy Castle series.

Just imagine... Captain Toad: Crazy Castle

Jeremy Parish is like the NPR of gaming. I'm pretty sure I had both Bugs Bunny Crazy Castle 1 & 2 on the original Game Boy as a kid.

 

[Arcadenik]

On topic, I wouldn't be against a few levels of these scattered throughout Captain Toad's more diorama based puzzle games, similar to how Odyssey had a few 2D Mario sections. Just a few to give a bit more gameplay diversity.

You're right that with the lack of jumping and the usage of warp pipes in this game, it seems like it'd be a solid fit for the Captain if there was ever any 2D sections introduced.

I kinda want to see a hacked Bugs Bunny Crazy Castle game with the Looney Tunes characters swapped with Captain Toad and generic Mario enemies (Goomba, Koopa Troopa, Shy Guy, Spiny).

 

[Ed-boy]

See I think the thing is if Toad did ever get in, even if people would complain he wasn't 'hype' enough they'd have to begrudgingly accept he wasn't 'a waste of a slot'.

Talking of hype, this is a very personal thing but I think it's the least useful thing in roster discussion because hype is such a fleeting thing in the first place it only lasts a few weeks before everyone moves onto the next newcomer anyway.

Even long term Smash fan favourite Banjo was gotten over pretty damn quickly. If that's going to be the case I'd rather have big names that'll make sense in future titles rather than a brief Twitter crashing or Youtube Hit obtaining newcomer.

People in the Smash speculation circuit seem to be more obsessed with the hype surrounding the reveal more than the actual character and I find that really bizarre.

Way to hit the nail on the head.
I remember so many people thought that Plant was the funniest thing ever, & the whole Plant Gang movement was this hot thing (now whether it's ironic or not is beyond me...). Anytime someone expressed disappointment with the character, they'd be told to learn to take a joke & stop taking the roster so seriously, or something along those lines.

I never cared for Plant. It doesn't work as a surprise/left-field pick in my eyes because that was mostly for newcomers repping obsure or forgotten Nintendo titles, not a generic Mario mook that everyone recognizes. When it was revealed, all I could think about was how much insult to injury came to others when their most-wanteds were deconfirmed just moments before Plant's reveal (& personally speaking, how actually funny/cute it would've been had they went for a Goomba or Shy Guy instead). Take my little brother, who was heartbroken when Shadow The Hedgehog (his most wanted character) was shown as an assist trophy, when he admittedly could've easily worked as an echo.

I don't feel nearly as strong about it as I did at the time (neither does my lil' bro).
But that's just it.
It seems like not many others feel strongly about Plant either anymore.

It's all about the hype & the buzz, I guess.

 

[fogbadge]

Way to hit the nail on the head.
I remember so many people thought that Plant was the funniest thing ever, & the whole Plant Gang movement was this hot thing (now whether it's ironic or not is beyond me...). Anytime someone expressed disappointment with the character, they'd be told to learn to take a joke & stop taking the roster so seriously, or something along those lines.

I never cared for Plant. It doesn't work as a surprise/left-field pick in my eyes because that was mostly for newcomers repping obsure or forgotten Nintendo titles, not a generic Mario mook that everyone recognizes. When it was revealed, all I could think about was how much insult to injury came to others when their most-wanteds were deconfirmed just moments before Plant's reveal (& personally speaking, how actually funny/cute it would've been had they went for a Goomba or Shy Guy instead).

im with you on that one, theres so many other nintendo character would could have fit the bill

 

[Dan]

Way to hit the nail on the head.
I remember so many people thought that Plant was the funniest thing ever, & the whole Plant Gang movement was this hot thing (now whether it's ironic or not is beyond me...). Anytime someone expressed disappointment with the character, they'd be told to learn to take a joke & stop taking the roster so seriously, or something along those lines.

I never cared for Plant. It doesn't work as a surprise/left-field pick in my eyes because that was mostly for newcomers repping obsure or forgotten Nintendo titles, not a generic Mario mook that everyone recognizes. When it was revealed, all I could think about was how much insult to injury came to others when their most-wanteds were deconfirmed just moments before Plant's reveal (& personally speaking, how actually funny/cute it would've been had they went for a Goomba or Shy Guy instead). Take my little brother, who was heartbroken when Shadow The Hedgehog (his most wanted character) was shown as an assist trophy, when he admittedly could've easily worked as an echo.

I don't feel nearly as strong about it as I did at the time (neither does my lil' bro).
But that's just it.
It seems like not many others feel strongly about Plant either anymore.

It's all about the hype & the buzz, I guess.

Yes! I think a much better joke character would've been Pak E Derm. Corrin, Byleth, the Plant and Geno not being a deluxe were absolutely unacceptable shots to the gut imo. I'm not sure if it was out of the realm of possibility for Geno to be a deluxe though.

You know what would be nice? If they could change the height of deluxe costumes. Just let Toad be a deluxe Brawler if he can't be playable then.

And yeah, Shadow would've been a better Echo than Ken.

Man, I have found my people in the Toad thread. This will be my home until they reopen the Geno thread.

Edit: Like Mario is my favorite franchise and I still think the Plant was absolutely stupid... I guess that was the point. Kinda funny that us Mario fans don't like the pick while its fans are probably people who don't care about Mario.

 

[fogbadge]

Yes! I think a much better joke character would've been Pak E Derm. Corrin, Byleth, the Plant and Geno not being a deluxe were absolutely unacceptable shots to the gut imo. I'm not sure if it was out of the realm of possibility for Geno to be a deluxe though.

You know what would be nice? If they could change the height of deluxe costumes. Just let Toad be a deluxe Brawler if he can't be playable then.

And yeah, Shadow would've been a better Echo than Ken.

Man, I have found my people in the Toad thread. This will be my home until they reopen the Geno thread.

Edit: Like Mario is my favorite franchise and I still think the Plant was absolutely stupid... I guess that was the point. Kinda funny that us Mario fans don't like the pick while its fans are probably people who don't care about Mario.

well I apologise in advance for any anti Geno stuff you may see in this thread from me

though I gotta ask what happened in the Geno thread?

 

[YoshiandToad]

Man, I have found my people in the Toad thread. This will be my home until they reopen the Geno thread.

Edit: Like Mario is my favorite franchise and I still think the Plant was absolutely stupid... I guess that was the point. Kinda funny that us Mario fans don't like the pick while its fans are probably people who don't care about Mario.

Feel free to stick around! The more the merrier.

As fogbadge mentioned we have had a few small clashes with certain Geno fan members(as the two technically were seen as competition) so some of the (much, much...over a year we're talking here) older pages may contain some less wonderful comments about Geno, but at the end of the day we're all Mario fans, who want to see the series get the best representation it can in Smash.

I think that's the thing with Plant though. I don't know many self confessed Mario fans that were massively pleased with Plants inclusion, ranging from indifferent to annoyed.

Daisy unfortunately was the most echoey echo of the lot and Plant ended up being handed to us as our unique newcomer.

Whilst it's always nice for your series to get a newcomer, Mario has had quite a few long time requests between (Captain)Toad, Geno, Waluigi and Paper Mario so it was a bit unfortunate that the gag character was chosen from a series with so many objectively more wanted newcomers.

 

[Dan]

though I gotta ask what happened in the Geno thread?

As far as I can see, nothing; the staff just micromanaging Smashboards as usual.

As fogbadge mentioned we have had a few small clashes with certain Geno fan members(as the two technically were seen as competition) so some of the (much, much...over a year we're talking here) older pages may contain some less wonderful comments about Geno, but at the end of the day we're all Mario fans, who want to see the series get the best representation it can in Smash.

The way I see it, Toad is a very important Mario character and even an important video game character in general but he isn't really an obvious "fighter". Geno has one appearance, a cult following/obsessive fans and great/underrated moveset potential... they sort of cancel each other out in a way; I would love to see either. I would probably take both over Waluigi.

I'm still honestly surprised Daisy even got in as an Echo tbh.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

On another note, Captain Toad and Toad are extremely different characters. Besides not even being the same person, their abilities have nothing to do with each other. So they don't really make sense as alt options. Toadette actually works an an option for Toad, while Captain Toadette works as an option for Captain Toad, due to how similar they are, but that's it. And those are stretches anyway.

It's best to keep them separate. We already know they're factually different characters anyway(or people, as that's the term I prefer to use, since every form a character has is effectively a new character in fiction). I'm not saying "make another support thread" or implying that either. I'm saying the alt idea really really doesn't work, due to their abilities just being completely different.

That said, Piranha Plant was a bonus DLC character made just to help get people to buy the game early. It's closer to a surprise addition, akin to ones like Duck Hunt. It's not really meant to be there to be your typical Mario newcomer. Though it doesn't help our only other one was indeed a very weak Echo with barely a gameplay difference(like, the hurtbox changes, voice, and animations are all Daisy really has, which is pretty poor, imo). She plays like 99.9% the same, which the other Echoes have something more, though for the most part, the ones added to Ultimate are extremely similar except Ken.

I definitely want Toad in, though. That'd be sweet.

 

[Dan]

That said, Piranha Plant was a bonus DLC character made just to help get people to buy the game early. It's closer to a surprise addition, akin to ones like Duck Hunt. It's not really meant to be there to be your typical Mario newcomer. Though it doesn't help our only other one was indeed a very weak Echo with barely a gameplay difference(like, the hurtbox changes, voice, and animations are all Daisy really has, which is pretty poor, imo). She plays like 99.9% the same, which the other Echoes have something more, though for the most part, the ones added to Ultimate are extremely similar except Ken.

The biggest hit is it "wastes" another Mario spot, but I don't really even think they care about that and will just add as many Mario characters as they see fit; that certainly didn't stop them with FE.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

The biggest hit is it "wastes" another Mario spot, but I don't really even think they care about that and will just add as many Mario characters as they see fit; that certainly didn't stop them with FE.

Except not really. There was no Mario slot. It was a "surprise character" only. It would've been at best some other Mook that had a fun moveset Sakurai could think of.

Every single Fire Emblem character except Marth were circumstance-based.

Ike/Corrin/Byleth/Robin: New games already out or coming out within the right period of time.
Roy: Special advertisement due to being in the clone slot. Sakurai was convinced go with him. Corrin and Byleth also fit these.
Lucina: Was a costume already modified to be nearly Marth's height way beforehand. This is the only reason she was an Echo.
Chrom: Super easy Echo and was a huge popular request, especially after the situation with him not being in Smash 4 and then getting done dirty by both the Lucina/Robin reveal and the Palutena's Guidance. He was already popular as a choice(as he's one of the two core protagonists of Awakening, the other being Robin/The Avatar. Whichever name you prefer), and people expected him. Chrom was also planned at some point but scrapped for Robin due to him not being unique enough between Ike and Marth.

They're only being added due to unique circumstances. Frankly, Rosalina is a lot like the unique newcomers in FE. The right character at the right time. Fire Emblem also doesn't have recurring characters, so they can't "stay for a while to earn a spot" like many others. It's akin to how Pokemon is since effectively Lucario, but moreso Greninja and Incineroar.

PP is nothing more than a surprise Mook character that Sakurai had a quick idea for to make a fun DLC choice. Daisy is a popular request and an easy Echo. Don't forget that the Mario series has a lot of unique newcomers and some clones/echoes too. Let's note them too;

Unique: Mario, Bowser, Peach, Rosalina, Bowser Jr., Piranha Plant
Clones/Echo: Luigi, Dr. Mario, Daisy
Unique: Marth, Ike, Robin, Corrin, Byleth
Clone/Echoes: Roy, Lucina, Chrom

Luigi and Dr. Mario literally were added due to the fact they had extra time. Luigi would've obviously been in Melee otherwise, but keep in mind he wasn't actually planned for Smash 64. Same with Dr. Mario. Daisy was part of the base game plan, as was all the FE characters in Ultimate bar Byleth(who is rumored to have been thought of for base, but the game was delayed anyway, so that didn't work out. This suggests that Nintendo only suggested Byleth cause Sakurai already had the idea, but he still noted it wasn't his "personal pick" either). PP was added later on as a DLC idea. The only bonus DLC ever thought of was Mewtwo otherwise, who was used in a similar way, to get people to buy the game early to get it for free. That's all they have in common.

Don't get me wrong; PP wasn't the Mario character I wanted either. But it's a surprise addition that only took a slot away from an actual surprise addition at best. And if you look closer, it'd have likely been a mook or an unimportant villain type character. Sakurai's own words specified that it was both iconic and not "a hero" either. That doesn't leave a lot of options for what it could've been if it wasn't PP. So what else would've made sense in that context? Another mook? Sure. A ton of them are very iconic. Another non-heroic Pokemon could count too(Meowth for instance). Mewtwo is kind of similar to that, if only cause it's presented with an evil laugh in Melee, but that's much more stretchy of "villain" than an evil mook.

 

[Arcadenik]

And if you look closer, it'd have likely been a mook or an unimportant villain type character. Sakurai's own words specified that it was both iconic and not "a hero" either. That doesn't leave a lot of options for what it could've been if it wasn't PP. So what else would've made sense in that context? Another mook? Sure. A ton of them are very iconic. Another non-heroic Pokemon could count too(Meowth for instance).

Meowth really should have gotten in Smash. It’s iconic yet not a hero. Same with Team Rocket, especially if it’s Jessie and James instead of generic Grunts. But that’s for another thread.

Other options include certain generic Mario enemies such as Goomba, Koopa Troopa, and Shy Guy. Now, Goomba would have been interesting... especially if the reveal trailer showed that this Goomba was the same first Goomba you saw in the original Super Mario Bros.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Meowth really should have gotten in Smash. It’s iconic yet not a hero. Same with Team Rocket, especially if it’s Jessie and James instead of generic Grunts. But that’s for another thread.

Other options include certain generic Mario enemies such as Goomba, Koopa Troopa, and Shy Guy. Now, Goomba would have been interesting... especially if the reveal trailer showed that this Goomba was the same first Goomba you saw in the original Super Mario Bros.

That's exactly why I suggested Meowth. People know it because of the anime. Hell, many people recognize Ash way more than Red due to how big the anime is.

It's a great option that I would've taken too.

Do note my preferred Mario Mook is Shy Guy, due to a load of colors and abilities. PP actually isn't that off from the idea, as both would take from the various rpg's for attacks too.

...Man, I wish they'd give regular Toad some more specific abilities. He needs to be playable in an official Mario RPG already. That might help define him better. Captain Toad is much more clear otherwise in his abilities(but as I said before, Captain Toad and Toad are different people, different characters, and nothing alike beyond being the same species). Incidentally I wouldn't mind having two Warios to represent both series, as he has very unique abilities in each.

 

[Dan]

Except not really. There was no Mario slot. It was a "surprise character" only. It would've been at best some other Mook that had a fun moveset Sakurai could think of.

Which is why I said I don't even think they care it's a Mario rep...

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Which is why I said I don't even think they care it's a Mario rep...

Where is this "they" anyway? Sakurai directly chose it.

It's not a Fighter's Pass character, which were chosen by Nintendo.

Honestly, I get that PP is an odd choice for many, but people need to remember it was a unique slot choice that didn't replace anyone. It was basically a bonus character at that point with a unique context.

Of course, not being a fan of mooks makes sense. They're barely characters overall(they are, but they don't often have notable characterization. ...Not that Mario himself is much better, but eh).

 

[Dan]

Well I didn't know Sakurai chose it by himself but that's beside the point... you seem to be disagreeing with me even though we're on the same page so I don't even know anymore lol.

 

[Oddball]

I hate the argument that any character has taken another characters spot.

The fact that Piranha Plant got in doesn't mean we would have gotten Toad, Geno, Waluigi, Wart, Pauline or a Gooma Paratroopa if it wasn't for the Plant. if Nintendo wanted to have both Piranha Plant and Captain Toad it would have them both.

Also I can understand why people might be a tad disappointed that their favorite game character didn't get in, but anyone that's seriously upset of heartbroken is taking this way to seriously.

 

[fogbadge]

As far as I can see, nothing; the staff just micromanaging Smashboards as usual.

really? something must have happened otherwise all deconfirmed characters would be locked

On another note, Captain Toad and Toad are extremely different characters. Besides not even being the same person, their abilities have nothing to do with each other. So they don't really make sense as alt options. Toadette actually works an an option for Toad, while Captain Toadette works as an option for Captain Toad, due to how similar they are, but that's it. And those are stretches anyway.

It's best to keep them separate. We already know they're factually different characters anyway(or people, as that's the term I prefer to use, since every form a character has is effectively a new character in fiction). I'm not saying "make another support thread" or implying that either. I'm saying the alt idea really really doesn't work, due to their abilities just being completely different.

see this has been one of our bigger subjects of debate. as far as most people believed in his debut game captain toad was the toad and we had no reason to doubt that until 3d world. and i maintain that nintendo arent that bothered about toad's identity. as for the alt thing well perhaps it doesnt make a lot of sense but lets face it in smash there are loads of characters who have move and abilities that arent their own. a good example of this is daisy, sure in many games she in functionally identical to peach but the vast majority of peach's moves that daisy had as well are from games daisy wasnt even in.

 

[Lenidem]

Way to hit the nail on the head.
I remember so many people thought that Plant was the funniest thing ever, & the whole Plant Gang movement was this hot thing (now whether it's ironic or not is beyond me...). Anytime someone expressed disappointment with the character, they'd be told to learn to take a joke & stop taking the roster so seriously, or something along those lines.

I never cared for Plant. It doesn't work as a surprise/left-field pick in my eyes because that was mostly for newcomers repping obsure or forgotten Nintendo titles, not a generic Mario mook that everyone recognizes. When it was revealed, all I could think about was how much insult to injury came to others when their most-wanteds were deconfirmed just moments before Plant's reveal (& personally speaking, how actually funny/cute it would've been had they went for a Goomba or Shy Guy instead). Take my little brother, who was heartbroken when Shadow The Hedgehog (his most wanted character) was shown as an assist trophy, when he admittedly could've easily worked as an echo.

I don't feel nearly as strong about it as I did at the time (neither does my lil' bro).
But that's just it.
It seems like not many others feel strongly about Plant either anymore.

It's all about the hype & the buzz, I guess.

I'm totally with you on that. I hate the Plant's inclusion because it took the time and energy requiered for a whole character. Don't get me wrong, I don't think the Plant "took the spot" of one of my favorite characters. But it definitiely took a spot, because yes, that's how it works. The fact that it was "a surprise addition" doesn't play in its favor at all: it could have been basically anyone else and still work as a bonus for preorder. Heck, I even disagree with the very idea that a character is being used as a way to push preordering. It only works for a limited time anyway, and after that it's just a downloadable character like the others and you have to pay for it. Since it's his topic, Captain Toad or good old regular Toad would have been "surprising" as well, but it would have made more sense and pleased many more people, and it's just one example. There are many characters in the roster that I don't like or don't care about, but none of them feels like a total waste.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

see this has been one of our bigger subjects of debate. as far as most people believed in his debut game captain toad was the toad and we had no reason to doubt that until 3d world. and i maintain that nintendo arent that bothered about toad's identity. as for the alt thing well perhaps it doesnt make a lot of sense but lets face it in smash there are loads of characters who have move and abilities that arent their own. a good example of this is daisy, sure in many games she in functionally identical to peach but the vast majority of peach's moves that daisy had as well are from games daisy wasnt even in.

When the actual creator of the game(Captain Toad) directly said they're different people? It's not a debate.

It was poorly localized at best in Super Mario Sunshine. That's why there was confusion to begin with. But it was confirmed in the Japanese version they're unrelated too. That's a crappy dub moment.

Daisy's a poor example because she's an Echo, not an Alt(she was never an Alt either, just a light reference in Melee even). All the other Alts actually have barely any non-canon moves at best. Toad and Captain Toad are literally nothing alike beyond their species. She also barely did much beyond play like Peach in the majority of her appearances. So there's no "loads" of moves. And even then, they still fit more than well enough, beyond, as I note below, the Toads.

Literally the only thing that's truly illogical for Daisy at best could be the Toads, really. It's logical for her to use slaps, nothing prevents her from using magic as is(Mario Party has everyone able to use Magic or Magical Items in variation, so it's not that awkward), she can easily use a Parasol, obviously the various Sports items make sense. She's not really functionally identical so much as "almost 1:1 but has the tiniest gameplay difference that barely matters". If she didn't, she would just be an Alt. Characters are only allowed a clone(and Echo, a separate form of clone) slot because they don't play 100% alike, something confirmed in Smash 4. The hurtbox differences are completely lame as is and it will rarely ever come up. She does have unique taunts too, mind you, but that means little. She's 99% the same as Peach, basically. That 1% is the entire reason she has to be a separate slot.

In addition, all of those cases were much more unique situations. Those were due to clone situations or representing the game they're from, not just themselves. Hell, Ness was built off of Mario last minute, not even unique strictly on his own(and he's still the most unique one despite sharing data with the plumber. They have a few similar animations at best). Captain Falcon used Samus as a base, sharing a decent amount of moves, and had moves made up because none existed. Toad nor Captain Toad fit any of these situations. Just cause the people behind the Spirits screwed up with having Toad evolve into Captain Toad doesn't mean they're the same person. Toad and Captain are knowingly extremely different. There is no good reason for them to be alts at this point, because they don't actually play remotely the same as is. One's a regular good ole' jumping Mario character, while the other is a unique puzzle solver with a backpack and other various abilities and items. They're as different as night and day.

 

[fogbadge]

When the actual creator of the game(Captain Toad) directly said they're different people? It's not a debate.

It was poorly localized at best in Super Mario Sunshine. That's why there was confusion to begin with. But it was confirmed in the Japanese version they're unrelated too. That's a crappy dub moment.

Daisy's a poor example because she's an Echo, not an Alt(she was never an Alt either, just a light reference in Melee even). All the other Alts actually have barely any non-canon moves at best. Toad and Captain Toad are literally nothing alike beyond their species. She also barely did much beyond play like Peach in the majority of her appearances. So there's no "loads" of moves. And even then, they still fit more than well enough, beyond, as I note below, the Toads.

Literally the only thing that's truly illogical for Daisy at best could be the Toads, really. It's logical for her to use slaps, nothing prevents her from using magic as is(Mario Party has everyone able to use Magic or Magical Items in variation, so it's not that awkward), she can easily use a Parasol, obviously the various Sports items make sense. She's not really functionally identical so much as "almost 1:1 but has the tiniest gameplay difference that barely matters". If she didn't, she would just be an Alt. Characters are only allowed a clone(and Echo, a separate form of clone) slot because they don't play 100% alike, something confirmed in Smash 4. The hurtbox differences are completely lame as is and it will rarely ever come up. She does have unique taunts too, mind you, but that means little. She's 99% the same as Peach, basically. That 1% is the entire reason she has to be a separate slot.

In addition, all of those cases were much more unique situations. Those were due to clone situations or representing the game they're from, not just themselves. Hell, Ness was built off of Mario last minute, not even unique strictly on his own(and he's still the most unique one despite sharing data with the plumber. They have a few similar animations at best). Captain Falcon used Samus as a base, sharing a decent amount of moves, and had moves made up because none existed. Toad nor Captain Toad fit any of these situations. Just cause the people behind the Spirits screwed up with having Toad evolve into Captain Toad doesn't mean they're the same person. Toad and Captain are knowingly extremely different. There is no good reason for them to be alts at this point, because they don't actually play remotely the same as is. One's a regular good ole' jumping Mario character, while the other is a unique puzzle solver with a backpack and other various abilities and items. They're as different as night and day.

that doesnt negate the fact that weve still debated it in this thread of numerous occasions. you can say its not a debate all you want but its still something we did.

now if youll notice my wording i said nobody questioned the identity until 3d world so from since galaxy no one seemed to think there was a difference. and nothing suggest that the red toad in sunshine is the same red toad in galaxy.

you seem to have missed my point about daisy entirely. my point was that its not unusual for characters to have non canon moves just look at falcon, fox, ness, lucas, zelda, daisy, doc, PP, ice climbers, r.o.b., ganondorf. so many characters do things that they dont do in their own games and whether or not it makes "sense" is actually subjective. smash's relation to the canon is loose at best, even the characters who are alts arent the same. from what i under stand enderman had to be shrink to fit steve, all the koopalings are the wrong size, really the only ones who are as similar as you seem to think they need to be are olimar and alph. toad, toadette, captain and even toadsworth may all play very differently but if sakurai wants them to be alts he can make them all alts and frankly it would make as much sense as having ganondorf be a clone of falcon (who are even more different than night and day) just cause the have the same body shape. there are far stranger things that make even less sense in smash.

besides if you think those two being alts is a bad idea you should have seen the last suggestion we got