Toad/Captain Toad for Smash, Toad Brigade Assemble!

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

that doesnt negate the fact that weve still debated it in this thread of numerous occasions. you can say its not a debate all you want but its still something we did.

now if youll notice my wording i said nobody questioned the identity until 3d world so from since galaxy no one seemed to think there was a difference. and nothing suggest that the red toad in sunshine is the same red toad in galaxy.

You're missing the actual point. We know they are officially different people. Thus, why on earth would they make sense as alts when they aren't just different people, but have like nothing in common beyond the species? It doesn't make sense.

you seem to have missed my point about daisy entirely. my point was that its not unusual for characters to have non canon moves just look at falcon, fox, ness, lucas, zelda, daisy, doc, PP, ice climbers, r.o.b., ganondorf. so many characters do things that they dont do in their own games and whether or not it makes "sense" is actually subjective. smash's relation to the canon is loose at best, even the characters who are alts arent the same. from what i under stand enderman had to be shrink to fit steve, all the koopalings are the wrong size, really the only ones who are as similar as you seem to think they need to be are olimar and alph. toad, toadette, captain and even toadsworth may all play very differently but if sakurai wants them to be alts he can make them all alts and frankly it would make as much sense as having ganondorf be a clone of falcon (who are even more different than night and day) just cause the have the same body shape. there are far stranger things that make even less sense in smash.

besides if you think those two being alts is a bad idea you should have seen the last suggestion we got

And none of those examples are due to having a bad alt choice that makes zero sense. Those are moves that fit the character's ability(and PP is based upon its actual abilities from the various species, as there's a ton of PP-related species. It has barely any weird moves to begin with).

So no, I don't see a single one of those as a good point towards it. Many of those were clones or have actual circumstances for why it works that way.

The only thing an alt has ever done that's awkward is a loss of personality, but never once was it a moveset issue. Not even the Spirits being weird(and frankly, we know there's a lack of research anyway, as they obviously have non-canon based evolutions, like Nipper Plant evolving into Petey Piranha of all things) means anything related to alts. Cause that's a problem with the Spirits being poor. They didn't even know that they were using a fan-made Masked Man sprite. Obviously lack of research is obvious. That's the only time they even got the Toad and Captain Toad thing wrong anyway. Unlike them, Sakurai does his research. And he's not going to be unaware those two are still hard different as night and day. Captain Toad can't play like Toad, and Toad can't play like Captain Toad. Besides, every single clone/etc. example you noted actually do have logic behind them. It's not "non-canon move" so much as "they can believably do stuff like this due to their own abilities, animations that use it, and/or cause it comes from their games".

Nobody is asking you to fix the topic so it's more accurate or whatever, since you're supporting two entirely different characters in one slot, but trying to act like they're the same is just plain silly and ignoring facts now. You were simply wrong they were the same person. It's not a big deal. Don't be so stubborn about that fact.

 

[Oddball]

see this has been one of our bigger subjects of debate. as far as most people believed in his debut game captain toad was the toad and we had no reason to doubt that until 3d world. and i maintain that nintendo arent that bothered about toad's identity. as for the alt thing well perhaps it doesnt make a lot of sense but lets face it in smash there are loads of characters who have move and abilities that arent their own. a good example of this is daisy, sure in many games she in functionally identical to peach but the vast majority of peach's moves that daisy had as well are from games daisy wasnt even in.

Nintendo is weird that way. It's almost the same thing they do with Yoshi. There's a lot of Yoshis, and then there's Yoshi, but there's really not even that much to suggest The Yoshi is always the same The Yoshi.

Thus, why on earth would they make sense as alts when they aren't just different people, but have like nothing in common beyond the species?

They have almost everything in common to the point where people weren't even sure whether or not they were the same guy.

Cheerful mushroom person that's a friend of Mario, Luigi, and Peach who sometimes goes on adventures.
That's a lot to have in common.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Nintendo is weird that way. It's almost the same thing they do with Yoshi. There's a lot of Yoshis, and then there's Yoshi, but there's really not even that much to suggest The Yoshi is always the same The Yoshi.

That's probably cause of Miyamoto. He is not a fan of story and characterization in the first place.

He was mad that Rosalina even had a real backstory, and purposely made sure her story was massively lessened in Super Mario Galaxy 2.

He wants to save "story" for the Zelda series in general as is.

The person behind Captain Toad is the one who actually let us know they were always different people, which is the core reason people know for sure. 3D World also helped. Hell, Miyamoto can't even decide if Mario and Dr. Mario is the same person at this point. His only statement is "Mario would never be a real doctor", which is confusing. Though at least the various blurbs and such try to paint them as the same person.

 

[YoshiandToad]

I hate the argument that any character has taken another characters spot.

The fact that Piranha Plant got in doesn't mean we would have gotten Toad, Geno, Waluigi, Wart, Pauline or a Gooma Paratroopa if it wasn't for the Plant. if Nintendo wanted to have both Piranha Plant and Captain Toad it would have them both.

Also I can understand why people might be a tad disappointed that their favorite game character didn't get in, but anyone that's seriously upset of heartbroken is taking this way to seriously.

I suppose if you get down to brass tacks every character on the roster is competing with every potential character since they all take dev time and there's only so much time Sakurai has.

Mario, Pokemon and Fire Emblem seem to pretty consistently get new characters every game so whilst I don't think there's a designated 'Mario slot' as such I do think the reveal of a Mario character, any Mario character mind you, is a blow for other Mario characters overall.
Sakurai's mentioned back in Melee how he was considering Wario for playable but opted to leave him for later due to both time and not wanting to over-represent the Mario franchise in that edition, and his concern about adding Corrin in Sm4sh due to wondering if he was over-representing Fire Emblem within it.

Regarding the upset and heartbreak surrounding Plant's reveal, I mostly only noticed that level of disappointment with supporters of characters that appeared in the Grinch Leak. Always stings right after a deconfirmation admittedly and the Grinch leak had a fair few people mistakeningly think their MWs were in thanks to some dubious 'insiders' claiming it to be.

Didn't help that 'Plant Gang' memes were nearly all solely focused on mocking the poor sods who supported Shadow, Isaac(both were revealed as assists during this direct), Chorus Kids(who had been stung before with Gematsu), Mach Rider, Banjo(who got in regardless in the end, good for them) and Geno(who I think speaks for himself). That was probably pretty annoying for the supporters of those characters.

I do want to say though that Plant wasn't some final nail in the coffin for us Toad fans as we'd come to accept he wasn't getting in a long time prior to his reveal:

Toad was revealed and deconfirmed in the 'Everyone is Here' trailer(Peach showcasing the new Toad grab which did temporarily confuse me into thinking he was a newcomer, but I got over it quickly) and Blue Toad filling the same role for Daisy immedietly afterwards.
This was a big deal to us. It sucked a little, yes, but on a positive note it was a step up from Toad's treatment in Melee-Sm4sh in that he was now less of a hostage and more an acting bodyguard. In a way that was kinda cool. Not what we wanted but definitely an improvement from being treated like a total joke.

Captain Toad later got deconfirmed via a website update(I think just after K. Rool's reveal) that had the New Donk City stage reveal upon it, with Captain Toad front and center as a piece of the stage. That was probably the most crushing blow for us since Treasure Tracker had done really well and Captain Toad's cameo only viewable on the stage once ever 3 minutes or so. That was a bit of a let down.

I personally don't much care for Plant now although I did find him amusing during the Direct.
In hindsight I just wish we'd just either gotten either someone a little more worthwhile overall or a different generic mook like Goomba, Koopa Troopa, Shy Guy or even Rattata or a Moblin from a different series as these mooks seemed to have some fans. Plant's more unexpected, but that was mostly because he's treated like an item rather than a character in games like Mario Kart and 3D World.

Nintendo is weird that way. It's almost the same thing they do with Yoshi. There's a lot of Yoshis, and then there's Yoshi, but there's really not even that much to suggest The Yoshi is always the same The Yoshi.

Especially with Smash Yoshi. If Smash Yoshi is Yoshi's Island Yoshi...but 'The' Yoshi is a star child Yoshi as seen being born at the end of Yoshi's Island DS, then is Yoshi in Smash 'The' Yoshi or the Yoshi's Island Yoshi?

I wrote Yoshi so much I've lost track of what's going on there.

 

[Oddball]

Especially with Smash Yoshi. If Smash Yoshi is Yoshi's Island Yoshi...but 'The' Yoshi is a star child Yoshi as seen being born at the end of Yoshi's Island DS, then is Yoshi in Smash 'The' Yoshi or the Yoshi's Island Yoshi?

I wrote Yoshi so much I've lost track of what's going on there.

It almost sounds like you're starting to speak Yoshi.

 

[YoshiandToad]

It almost sounds like you're starting to speak Yoshi.

Fits my username at the very least.

 

[Otoad64]

That's probably cause of Miyamoto. He is not a fan of story and characterization in the first place.

He was mad that Rosalina even had a real backstory, and purposely made sure her story was massively lessened in Super Mario Galaxy 2.

He wants to save "story" for the Zelda series in general as is.

The person behind Captain Toad is the one who actually let us know they were always different people, which is the core reason people know for sure. 3D World also helped. Hell, Miyamoto can't even decide if Mario and Dr. Mario is the same person at this point. His only statement is "Mario would never be a real doctor", which is confusing. Though at least the various blurbs and such try to paint them as the same person.

personally I think the Dr. Mario series is an alternate reality where Mario (and everyone else according to Dr. Mario World) has a PhD. I wish the Mario series would have a more cohesive canon, nothing crazy, just something kirby or sonic level

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

personally I think the Dr. Mario series is an alternate reality where Mario (and everyone else according to Dr. Mario World) has a PhD. I wish the Mario series would have a more cohesive canon, nothing crazy, just something kirby or sonic level

It does at least have an idea they're all kind of like actors for its "canon". Incidentally, Dr. Mario should've been in Mario Kart by now. Also, same with Captain Toad. Only Toad is in so far.

Which honestly, it would've been easier if Toad and Captain Toad were the same person, but it not being the case, well. It sucks they did a poor job localizing it and confusing us. At least the Japanese Galaxy game made it clear they were unrelated, so it's a start?

 

[YoshiandToad]

It does at least have an idea they're all kind of like actors for its "canon". Incidentally, Dr. Mario should've been in Mario Kart by now. Also, same with Captain Toad. Only Toad is in so far.

Which honestly, it would've been easier if Toad and Captain Toad were the same person, but it not being the case, well. It sucks they did a poor job localizing it and confusing us. At least the Japanese Galaxy game made it clear they were unrelated, so it's a start?

Well we do have Captain Toad in Mario Kart Tour, so I'm hoping Mario Kart 9 will follow suit. Say what you will about the gacha game it has added some pretty requested characters to the roster such as Captain Toad, Dixie Kong and Nabbit.
I'm pretty shocked considering there's 11 different Mario alts in that game that none are Dr. Mario though. Seems like an obvious inclusion and they skipped it.

One thing I am curious about is Japan's take on Mario Maker's Mystery Mushroom outfit of Toad.
In the English version if you beat the single player with the Toad Mystery Mushroom outfit on, the Toad at the end of the game refers to you as 'Captain'.
I wonder if this is a genuine confusion between the two characters or if 'The Toad' is simply seen as the one in charge of all the other Toads.

 

[fogbadge]

You're missing the actual point. We know they are officially different people. Thus, why on earth would they make sense as alts when they aren't just different people, but have like nothing in common beyond the species? It doesn't make sense.


And none of those examples are due to having a bad alt choice that makes zero sense. Those are moves that fit the character's ability(and PP is based upon its actual abilities from the various species, as there's a ton of PP-related species. It has barely any weird moves to begin with).

So no, I don't see a single one of those as a good point towards it. Many of those were clones or have actual circumstances for why it works that way.

The only thing an alt has ever done that's awkward is a loss of personality, but never once was it a moveset issue. Not even the Spirits being weird(and frankly, we know there's a lack of research anyway, as they obviously have non-canon based evolutions, like Nipper Plant evolving into Petey Piranha of all things) means anything related to alts. Cause that's a problem with the Spirits being poor. They didn't even know that they were using a fan-made Masked Man sprite. Obviously lack of research is obvious. That's the only time they even got the Toad and Captain Toad thing wrong anyway. Unlike them, Sakurai does his research. And he's not going to be unaware those two are still hard different as night and day. Captain Toad can't play like Toad, and Toad can't play like Captain Toad. Besides, every single clone/etc. example you noted actually do have logic behind them. It's not "non-canon move" so much as "they can believably do stuff like this due to their own abilities, animations that use it, and/or cause it comes from their games".

Nobody is asking you to fix the topic so it's more accurate or whatever, since you're supporting two entirely different characters in one slot, but trying to act like they're the same is just plain silly and ignoring facts now. You were simply wrong they were the same person. It's not a big deal. Don't be so stubborn about that fact.

ok now I know your ignoring my posts. First of all what behaviour do the koopalings and jr have in common? None really the koopalings done even use the clown car that often. The point about PP is that he can switch between multiple PP type abilities something none of them can do in their own game. And can you explain why characters who don’t act the way they’re supposed is not a good reason for another character to do it. And lastly I have never once said that they were the same character I said it was a topic that came up in this thread all the time, in fact if you check the first post you’ll see I refer to them as different characters. I have not once in this whole debate said that they were, kindly read my posts properly before making accusations

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

ok now I know your ignoring my posts. First of all what behaviour do the koopalings and jr have in common? None really the koopalings done even use the clown car that often. The point about PP is that he can switch between multiple PP type abilities something none of them can do in their own game. And can you explain why characters who don’t act the way they’re supposed is not a good reason for another character to do it. And lastly I have never once said that they were the same character I said it was a topic that came up in this thread all the time, in fact if you check the first post you’ll see I refer to them as different characters. I have not once in this whole debate said that they were, kindly read my posts properly before making accusations

You mean they actually do act alike? The Koopalings actually do a lot in common with Bowser Jr., including being related to Bowser(before it was made clear they actually aren't), they can super easily be in the Koopa Clown Car(which is the moveset, not Bowser Jr. himself).

PP is a generic mook, not an established character like Toad and Captain Toad are. He's barely a character and is a horrible point to use.

Not everyone is a fan of the Koopa Clown Car moveset either.

If they're entirely different, why would you argue for them to be alts when they have no way to mesh their moveset together in a logical fashion? Honestly, are you just doing this to be contrarian at this point? They don't work as alts. Never have, never will. They're too different. There is no moveset that can fit for both like the Koopalings and Bowser Jr.(the Koopa Clown Car) either. These things don't exist as options. There's a clear context behind every single one of those examples, and none of those legitimately work in any possible way for Toad and Captain Toad. They aren't in a vehicle. They aren't a clone of another character nor used another as a base. Toad doesn't even have a hard set of defined abilities to work with, nor clear animations like even Ganondorf had(never mind Ganondorf's specific situation was due to having a tech demo model. If it wasn't for that, he wouldn't have been in Melee. Who knows when he'd have been added. As late as 4 and early as Brawl).

I didn't ignore your points. I told you the points don't work because they have legitimate context for why they make actual sense. They're still not remotely alt situations, but characters with combo movesets with context behind each one. This cannot be applied to Toad or Captain Toad. There's a reason Daisy was never a straight alt, because she's a very different person. She shares the same moveset, but has quite a few unique animations too.

Nonetheless, I'm done with this. They will never make sense as an alt situation. Unless you're suggesting a vehicle, which obviously you weren't(the only time where characters who only somewhat share something in common worked).

 

[fogbadge]

You mean they actually do act alike? The Koopalings actually do a lot in common with Bowser Jr., including being related to Bowser(before it was made clear they actually aren't), they can super easily be in the Koopa Clown Car(which is the moveset, not Bowser Jr. himself).

PP is a generic mook, not an established character like Toad and Captain Toad are. He's barely a character and is a horrible point to use.

Not everyone is a fan of the Koopa Clown Car moveset either.

If they're entirely different, why would you argue for them to be alts when they have no way to mesh their moveset together in a logical fashion? Honestly, are you just doing this to be contrarian at this point? They don't work as alts. Never have, never will. They're too different. There is no moveset that can fit for both like the Koopalings and Bowser Jr.(the Koopa Clown Car) either. These things don't exist as options. There's a clear context behind every single one of those examples, and none of those legitimately work in any possible way for Toad and Captain Toad. They aren't in a vehicle. They aren't a clone of another character nor used another as a base. Toad doesn't even have a hard set of defined abilities to work with, nor clear animations like even Ganondorf had(never mind Ganondorf's specific situation was due to having a tech demo model. If it wasn't for that, he wouldn't have been in Melee. Who knows when he'd have been added. As late as 4 and early as Brawl).

I didn't ignore your points. I told you the points don't work because they have legitimate context for why they make actual sense. They're still not remotely alt situations, but characters with combo movesets with context behind each one. This cannot be applied to Toad or Captain Toad. There's a reason Daisy was never a straight alt, because she's a very different person. She shares the same moveset, but has quite a few unique animations too.

Nonetheless, I'm done with this. They will never make sense as an alt situation. Unless you're suggesting a vehicle, which obviously you weren't(the only time where characters who only somewhat share something in common worked).

Ok now I’m sure you’re trying to bate me. How convenient that all the things that disprove your logic are exceptions to the rules.

As for why I may suggest they be toads if each other it’s probably because we think it’s the best we can get and it’s unrealistic to hope for both. If you need a context then the toad finding a backpack or cap using power ups that everyone in mushroom kingdom can use makes about as much sense as ended man suddenly getting shorter for no reason. I also find it interesting that you use the koopalings being related bowser as an example for why it works for them when it is in fact a non canon thing that resulted in localisation when you have been doubling down on the fact that toad and cap are conanically separate characters. As for you’re repeated point about them being separate characters well they’re all separate characters, olimar and alph, jr and the koopalings, the four heroes and the minecraft crew. And there’s no context for why the heroes can use spells they can’t or why the minecraft craft crew are suddenly all the same. If they’re all so different then why are they all alts? Fan service I think. And pointing out that not everyone likes the koopa clown car has got nothing to do with what we’re debating.

so here’s an idea don’t accuse me of being deliberately contrary when all you’re points are full of double standards, hypocrisy, contradictions and wilful ignorance of facts.

 

[Oddball]

I'm still waiting for a real reason why Toad and Captain Toad can't have the same moves. Just saying they can't and they are two different people doesn't work.

Dr. Mario and Ryu practically have the same moves (fireball, jumping uppercut, little spin attack) and they've got a LOT less in common than Toad and Captain Toad.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Ok now I’m sure you’re trying to bate me. How convenient that all the things that disprove your logic are exceptions to the rules.

As for why I may suggest they be toads if each other it’s probably because we think it’s the best we can get and it’s unrealistic to hope for both. If you need a context then the toad finding a backpack or cap using power ups that everyone in mushroom kingdom can use makes about as much sense as ended man suddenly getting shorter for no reason. I also find it interesting that you use the koopalings being related bowser as an example for why it works for them when it is in fact a non canon thing that resulted in localisation when you have been doubling down on the fact that toad and cap are conanically separate characters. As for you’re repeated point about them being separate characters well they’re all separate characters, olimar and alph, jr and the koopalings, the four heroes and the minecraft crew. And there’s no context for why the heroes can use spells they can’t or why the minecraft craft crew are suddenly all the same. If they’re all so different then why are they all alts? Fan service I think. And pointing out that not everyone likes the koopa clown car has got nothing to do with what we’re debating.

so here’s an idea don’t accuse me of being deliberately contrary when all you’re points are full of double standards, hypocrisy, contradictions and wilful ignorance of facts.

They aren't exceptions.

They actually make sense due to circumstances.

You're still trying to put characters that make actual zero sense together where no logic supports it.

The Toad has nothing actually in common with Captain Toad. You'd only have a good point about the Koopalings if they weren't thrown into a vehicle they actually have used, which is the actual moveset. Keep in mind that's the only reason they were alts. They can easily use the Paintbrush anyway.

And frankly, it's actually a more popular idea that the Koopalings shouldn't have been alts. Same with Alph(and Alph actually has the same abilities as Olimar, but different personalities).

The Four Heroes actually play alike. They just have slightly different spells per game and are combined together. There's like barely, what, one Hero who never uses Magic, and that's in Dragon Quest II. The rest actually do, making them fit properly well as Alts. As it's a Class, not the specific character. Toad isn't a "Class". He's a unique person as is. Who doesn't act very much like Captain Toad. So no, they don't fit well together.

All the Minecraft Crew literally are skins who have the same abilities, so that's a poor point too.

The Koopa Clown Car has everything to do with it. That's literally the only reason why the Koopalings were alts. They weren't going to be otherwise. The vehicle is 100% the moveset, not the characters, in that case.

I'm not going to continue any further. Your alt suggestion never made sense once. Nothing supports the logic. Your examples all ignore extremely important context to why they work in the first place. The most Toad would be is a semi-clone with his own abilities if he was related to Captain Toad, since that fits him ten times better.

 

[fogbadge]

They aren't exceptions.

They actually make sense due to circumstances.

You're still trying to put characters that make actual zero sense together where no logic supports it.

The Toad has nothing actually in common with Captain Toad. You'd only have a good point about the Koopalings if they weren't thrown into a vehicle they actually have used, which is the actual moveset. Keep in mind that's the only reason they were alts. They can easily use the Paintbrush anyway.

And frankly, it's actually a more popular idea that the Koopalings shouldn't have been alts. Same with Alph(and Alph actually has the same abilities as Olimar, but different personalities).

The Four Heroes actually play alike. They just have slightly different spells per game and are combined together. There's like barely, what, one Hero who never uses Magic, and that's in Dragon Quest II. The rest actually do, making them fit properly well as Alts. As it's a Class, not the specific character. Toad isn't a "Class". He's a unique person as is. Who doesn't act very much like Captain Toad. So no, they don't fit well together.

All the Minecraft Crew literally are skins who have the same abilities, so that's a poor point too.

The Koopa Clown Car has everything to do with it. That's literally the only reason why the Koopalings were alts. They weren't going to be otherwise. The vehicle is 100% the moveset, not the characters, in that case.

I'm not going to continue any further. Your alt suggestion never made sense once. Nothing supports the logic. Your examples all ignore extremely important context to why they work in the first place. The most Toad would be is a semi-clone with his own abilities if he was related to Captain Toad, since that fits him ten times better.

no sunshine the logic doesnt make sense to YOU but it makes sense to a lot of other people. do not come into this thread and tell me im wrong for thinking two characters can be alts based on my own understanding of how smash just because it doesnt make sense to you. and why dont you actually disprove my points rather than saying theyre poor huh? the heroes using spells they have no reason for knowing makes about as much sense as either of the toads having access to the other's moves. and the mine craft guys are just skins, alex and enderman have different models. and do not tell me that nothing supports my logic when you entire basis for saying that is to just tell me im wrong. just because something doesnt make sense to you doesnt automatically make the other person wrong.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I'm done.

Not interested anymore. I don't see any reason for them to be alts and when I say I'm done, it's a good time to just agree to disagree. I'll be fair that I didn't write enough of an essay to explain why your points are wrong, but I see no point in continuing it any further since you feel the need to talk down to me instead of only going after my points.

Look, I'm not going to debate anyone when that kind of response comes up. Now please drop it. I won't continue the alt thing anymore either way in return. Just don't talk to me about it, since you're not going to ever convince me. Whether you like that or not doesn't matter. I am not having the conversation with you, and in return, I won't discuss it anymore on the thread. That's perfectly fair.

 

[Oddball]

Captain Toad leads a group of Toads that do the same thing he does. He hands out with Toadette who other times hangs out with Toad. He can pick vegetables pout of the ground, like Toad. He goes on adventures and helps Mario finds items like Toad does. He goes karting at times, like Toad (who has even been Toadette's partner much like Captain Toad.)

Captain Toad likes treaure and has a backpack full of supplies.
Toad often gives Mario items and powers from a treasure chest.

So what is it that Captain Toad does that doesn't fit Toad (or vise versa)?

 

[fogbadge]

I'm done.

Not interested anymore. I don't see any reason for them to be alts and when I say I'm done, it's a good time to just agree to disagree. I'll be fair that I didn't write enough of an essay to explain why your points are wrong, but I see no point in continuing it any further since you feel the need to talk down to me instead of only going after my points.

Look, I'm not going to debate anyone when that kind of response comes up. Now please drop it. I won't continue the alt thing anymore either way in return. Just don't talk to me about it, since you're not going to ever convince me. Whether you like that or not doesn't matter. I am not having the conversation with you, and in return, I won't discuss it anymore on the thread. That's perfectly fair.

no sunshine you were the one talking down the me. you started this whole thing because i mentioned we used to debate toad's identity and told me we were wrong for thinking things that i never said and without even knowing which side of the debate i was on. for the record my point was always nintendo dont seem to care so why should we. so dont act like the victim here when youve been accusing me of things i have not been doing at all. if you cant explain to a person why theyre points are wrong and simply tell them that theyre wrong theyre gonna think you are attacking them and get rather defensive. so do not try and twist things around when you have been patronizing us from the start simply for having a debate ages ago.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Moving on, didn't somebody made a really good Captain Toad moveset that had something other than jumping as part of his abilities? That is, it lacked it.

I remember something like that. It was a really cool moveset and represented him super well.

I also remember us talking about some cool ideas for Toad only using his canon moves, since overall an issue was him not having a very defining set of abilities(which admittedly could be part of why he isn't playable yet. I hope either case changes).

 

[fogbadge]

i would like to apologise to my fellow toad fans for letting that get out of hand. but what youve got to understand is that i felt i was under attack for simply saying we used to debate something. which we havent in a very long time. and felt like i was being called stupid for thinking something was possible which another person didnt. so am i truly sorry if ive ruined things for you all.

 

[YoshiandToad]

Well let's all move on.

There isn't anything wrong with healthy debate but there was definitely a lot of going in circles there.

I have to say it's nice to see some discussion of any kind going on in the Toad thread though. Feels like it's been quite a while.

Moving on, didn't somebody made a really good Captain Toad moveset that had something other than jumping as part of his abilities? That is, it lacked it.

I remember something like that. It was a really cool moveset and represented him super well.

I also remember us talking about some cool ideas for Toad only using his canon moves, since overall an issue was him not having a very defining set of abilities(which admittedly could be part of why he isn't playable yet. I hope either case changes).

I'm not sure which moveset you're referring to...can you recall any particular moves from it? Might help us narrow it down.

We've had a fair few ones here, I think there's a few in the OP. It might be in there?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I'm not sure which moveset you're referring to...can you recall any particular moves from it? Might help us narrow it down.

We've had a fair few ones here, I think there's a few in the OP. It might be in there?

It was a video, which is all I remember. >.<;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqk0vlKgu2c It's not this one, I think. Since I remember the video having an image of Captain Toad's model, not a drawing. I'm pretty sure I never saw that one. I barely remember reading a regular Toad moveset, and trying to help figure out some moves that were less thrown in because he's a mushroom person and more from the games he's in.

...Oddly enough the only actual movesets I remember Toad having in any games is I think an Akuma-based one in Kart Fighter? Which was silly. I know that was used for M.U.G.E.N. too, at least one of his movesets.

 

[YoshiandToad]

It was a video, which is all I remember. >.<;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqk0vlKgu2c It's not this one, I think. Since I remember the video having an image of Captain Toad's model, not a drawing. I'm pretty sure I never saw that one. I barely remember reading a regular Toad moveset, and trying to help figure out some moves that were less thrown in because he's a mushroom person and more from the games he's in.

Ah, that one was mine.

Could it be this one by King Bob Gaming? I think this is the only model based one I can recall is all:

 

[Dan]

really? something must have happened otherwise all deconfirmed characters would be locked

I was told it was to prevent outside people from coming in and trolling/harassing the thread, but by the same mod I was told that wasn't the reason and the timing was just coincidental. It's just people taking this site way too seriously... if people can't handle a Smash character how will they deal with the real world? It is so trivial at the end of the day.

I'm totally with you on that. I hate the Plant's inclusion because it took the time and energy requiered for a whole character. Don't get me wrong, I don't think the Plant "took the spot" of one of my favorite characters. But it definitiely took a spot, because yes, that's how it works. The fact that it was "a surprise addition" doesn't play in its favor at all: it could have been basically anyone else and still work as a bonus for preorder. Heck, I even disagree with the very idea that a character is being used as a way to push preordering. It only works for a limited time anyway, and after that it's just a downloadable character like the others and you have to pay for it. Since it's his topic, Captain Toad or good old regular Toad would have been "surprising" as well, but it would have made more sense and pleased many more people, and it's just one example. There are many characters in the roster that I don't like or don't care about, but none of them feels like a total waste.

Yes. People argue that "stolen slots" is not a thing, but development time = develop time, and if they didn't choose Plant or any other character they would've done someone else... this is how reality works. For instance, if they chose not to do K. Rool, Ridley, Simon and Richter they would've chosen different characters, not just had 6 base roster newcomers lol.

For me personally, Byleth and Corrin are the only two on the same level as Plant. Corrin would've been good as an Ultimate newcomer and Byleth for whatever the next game is, but the timing was horrible. Plant really isn't the same as G&W, ROB and DHD; those are oddball/weird joke characters that feel good and are welcomed. I guess that's my personal opinion, but when people are passionate about the roster that's a shot to the gut. Give me Mach Rider instead.

i would like to apologise to my fellow toad fans for letting that get out of hand. but what youve got to understand is that i felt i was under attack for simply saying we used to debate something. which we havent in a very long time. and felt like i was being called stupid for thinking something was possible which another person didnt. so am i truly sorry if ive ruined things for you all.

Don't worry; same user was somehow arguing with me on a point we seemed to be in agreement on in the previous page lol.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Ah, that one was mine.

Could it be this one by King Bob Gaming? I think this is the only model based one I can recall is all:

Is this a Captain Toad or a regular Toad moveset?

Cause it was specifically a Captain Toad model. I don't think it was that one that you linked.

 

[Dan]

Ah, that one was mine.

Could it be this one by King Bob Gaming? I think this is the only model based one I can recall is all:

Whoever made this video is an absolute genius.

 

[fogbadge]

I was told it was to prevent outside people from coming in and trolling/harassing the thread, but by the same mod I was told that wasn't the reason and the timing was just coincidental. It's just people taking this site way too seriously... if people can't handle a Smash character how will they deal with the real world? It is so trivial at the end of the day.

i suppose with a character with that much support may attract a lot of trouble. though i dont think we got any troll when toad was deconfirmed for the base roster although many of us seem to have a more defeatist attitude

 

[Dan]

Plus Toad isn't as big of a name as Geno in the Smash speculation scene.

 

[Oddball]

Plus Toad isn't as big of a name as Geno in the Smash speculation scene.

Which, in itself, is really weird.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Which, in itself, is really weird.

It's probably because many don't get that Toad isn't just a species. But an actual character who shares the same name with a species. This is part of why Piranha Plant also drew a lot of ire, cause of "being a species". We had basically the same thing with Pokemon in some cases(Squirtle, Ivysaur, Incineroar especially are not actual specific ones. Charizard isn't either, but it's common enough in the anime people treat it like an individual. Pichu was introduced in the movies as two characters, not one, so that's basically a general species in Smash). Though the important thing to note is most of them had hard defined personalities in the anime unlike Piranha Plant so people tried to make an exception for all of them, even when it makes little sense. Like, only Pikachu, Mewtwo, Jigglypuff, and Lucario are blatantly based upon the anime from the start. Greninja eventually became like that.

Yoshi plays with it via the costumes, but there was one specific Yoshi in the cartoons, comics, and Super Mario World 2, so. It's treated like an exception. It's kind of awkward in that regard. It's also worth noting that there's also a ton of games where there's only one Yoshi, though it's no different with Toad. Which is why it makes no sense to think Toad is different from Yoshi in that regard. Like, the only difference in their circumstances is one would be listed under the Super Mario banner(and obviously the kind of alts they'd have. No, I'm not going to specify any particular ones. Though I think Daisy should lose the Toads and Peach should use Toadsworth instead so it doesn't look awkward when Toad is playable, but that's kind of it).

Toad is highly iconic, but many don't really seem to care he isn't playable yet. Geno also doesn't appear in other Mario games anyway, so fans don't really get their fix in using the character. The main Toad has had tons of appearances too. This might relate to it. Many believe getting in Smash makes the character more likely to be used in their home series(that's not really accurate) or the specific games will continue(again, that's not really accurate). The only thing a Smash appearance has helped with is getting Fire Emblem localized. Otherwise, it made practically no difference in terms of reviving characters/series. It definitely helps with sales due to the advertising effect, though.

 

[fogbadge]

It's probably because many don't get that Toad isn't just a species. But an actual character who shares the same name with a species. This is part of why Piranha Plant also drew a lot of ire, cause of "being a species". We had basically the same thing with Pokemon in some cases(Squirtle, Ivysaur, Incineroar especially are not actual specific ones. Charizard isn't either, but it's common enough in the anime people treat it like an individual. Pichu was introduced in the movies as two characters, not one, so that's basically a general species in Smash). Though the important thing to note is most of them had hard defined personalities in the anime unlike Piranha Plant so people tried to make an exception for all of them, even when it makes little sense. Like, only Pikachu, Mewtwo, Jigglypuff, and Lucario are blatantly based upon the anime from the start. Greninja eventually became like that.

Yoshi plays with it via the costumes, but there was one specific Yoshi in the cartoons, comics, and Super Mario World 2, so. It's treated like an exception. It's kind of awkward in that regard. It's also worth noting that there's also a ton of games where there's only one Yoshi, though it's no different with Toad. Which is why it makes no sense to think Toad is different from Yoshi in that regard. Like, the only difference in their circumstances is one would be listed under the Super Mario banner(and obviously the kind of alts they'd have. No, I'm not going to specify any particular ones. Though I think Daisy should lose the Toads and Peach should use Toadsworth instead so it doesn't look awkward when Toad is playable, but that's kind of it).

Toad is highly iconic, but many don't really seem to care he isn't playable yet. Geno also doesn't appear in other Mario games anyway, so fans don't really get their fix in using the character. The main Toad has had tons of appearances too. This might relate to it. Many believe getting in Smash makes the character more likely to be used in their home series(that's not really accurate) or the specific games will continue(again, that's not really accurate). The only thing a Smash appearance has helped with is getting Fire Emblem localized. Otherwise, it made practically no difference in terms of reviving characters/series. It definitely helps with sales due to the advertising effect, though.

yeah thats why the whole geno thing confuses me. hes got so many fans and i just dont get why. i guess they all think hes "cool" or something but i dont get that. though do they want him to appear more in the mario series itself? havent had to many interactions with them and that might explain it.

funny how out of all the characters sakurai said would be cool to have or has considered in the past hes the only one with such a huge following

 

[YoshiandToad]

I kinda want to see a hacked Bugs Bunny Crazy Castle game with the Looney Tunes characters swapped with Captain Toad and generic Mario enemies (Goomba, Koopa Troopa, Shy Guy, Spiny).

Ask and you shall receive.

Kinda.

Here's a .gif of what I thought it might sort of look like:

Sprites found at Spriter's Resource. Mario Maker, Wario's Woods and Captain Toad sheets.
Shy Guy made by A.J. Nitro
Additional sprites(pickaxe, turnip, Captain Toad enter and exiting doors) made by myself.

 

[fogbadge]

Ask and you shall receive.

Kinda.

Here's a .gif of what I thought it might sort of look like:

View attachment 297514

Sprites found at Spriter's Resource. Mario Maker, Wario's Woods and Captain Toad sheets.
Shy Guy made by A.J. Nitro
Additional sprites(pickaxe, turnip, Captain Toad enter and exiting doors) made by myself.

i like it

 

[Dan]

yeah thats why the whole geno thing confuses me. hes got so many fans and i just dont get why. i guess they all think hes "cool" or something but i dont get that. though do they want him to appear more in the mario series itself? havent had to many interactions with them and that might explain it.

funny how out of all the characters sakurai said would be cool to have or has considered in the past hes the only one with such a huge following

Mario RPG is a weird hybrid of a popular yet obscure game; we all know it has a cult following, and I think Geno is the vessel in honoring that. As I mentioned before, he truly has underrated moveset potential (like he can do stuff most people wouldn't even know like turn himself into a cannon).

The game is extremely unique in its art style and universe; it is home to so many unique and weird characters that only had that one appearance and nothing else. I'm honestly of the opposite mind where I don't see how people don't care for Mario RPG because of how unique and different it is. The game is hella charming to me at least.

I guess the word of the day here to describe Mario RPG is "unique" lol.

Ask and you shall receive.

Kinda.

Here's a .gif of what I thought it might sort of look like:

View attachment 297514

Sprites found at Spriter's Resource. Mario Maker, Wario's Woods and Captain Toad sheets.
Shy Guy made by A.J. Nitro
Additional sprites(pickaxe, turnip, Captain Toad enter and exiting doors) made by myself.

We need a button greater than 'Like' for this.

 

[fogbadge]

Mario RPG is a weird hybrid of a popular yet obscure game; we all know it has a cult following, and I think Geno is the vessel in honoring that

you gotta feel bad for mallow in that regard

 

[Dan]

Fellas, I just realized how we can make both sides happy:

you gotta feel bad for mallow in that regard

Funny you say that as I forgot to answer your question if Geno fans want him to appear again the Mario series... I mean, of course we do, but I think Mallow would look less weird than Geno in Kart, Golf, Tennis, etc.

A lot of Geno fans have said on multiple occasions that they wouldn't be mad if Mallow got in over him; it would just be funny. I mean, the reality of the situation is Mallow is a crybaby creampuff while Geno is this cool-looking mysterious figure with a gun on his arm... I mean, Mallow is definitely cool in his own regard but it's pretty obvious why people prefer Geno.

 

[fogbadge]

Funny you say that as I forgot to answer your question if Geno fans want him to appear again the Mario series... I mean, of course we do, but I think Mallow would look less weird than Geno in Kart, Golf, Tennis, etc.

A lot of Geno fans have said on multiple occasions that they wouldn't be mad if Mallow got in over him; it would just be funny. I mean, the reality of the situation is Mallow is a crybaby creampuff while Geno is this cool-looking mysterious figure with a gun on his arm... I mean, Mallow is definitely cool in his own regard but it's pretty obvious why people prefer Geno.

hmm good to know, ive barely seen anyone say this so thats why i wondered

 

[Oddball]

Geno is this cool-looking mysterious figure with a gun on his arm...

I've never got why anybody thinks he looks cool. He's a little naked wooden man with big ears, curly ribbon for hair and he wears an elf cape. I'm not sure what part of that makes is supposed to make him look cool.

But let's not turn this into the Geno thread Mark 2 (or is it 3?) That was closed and we're here to talk about Toad.

... I'm trying to figure out how we can work "I'm sorry but the Princess is in another castle" into Smash and not coming up with anything. A taunt maybe?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I've never got why anybody thinks he looks cool. He's a little naked wooden man with big ears, curly ribbon for hair and he wears an elf cape. I'm not sure what part of that makes is supposed to make him look cool.

But let's not turn this into the Geno thread Mark 2 (or is it 3?) That was closed and we're here to talk about Toad.

... I'm trying to figure out how we can work "I'm sorry but the Princess is in another castle" into Smash and not coming up with anything. A taunt maybe?

He could say that to Mario or Luigi as a special victory screen?

 

[Otoad64]

I've never got why anybody thinks he looks cool. He's a little naked wooden man with big ears, curly ribbon for hair and he wears an elf cape. I'm not sure what part of that makes is supposed to make him look cool.

But let's not turn this into the Geno thread Mark 2 (or is it 3?) That was closed and we're here to talk about Toad.

... I'm trying to figure out how we can work "I'm sorry but the Princess is in another castle" into Smash and not coming up with anything. A taunt maybe?

that should be in his reveal trailer, it would be something along the lines of peach using her neutral b before being blasted away, and after the gameplay montage mario asks him where peach is and he says it, or maybe the text appears above him?

as for the game itself

He could say that to Mario or Luigi as a special victory screen?

that's probably the best option