To the Elite Tourneydudes.

[Elusive Taco]

How exactly do you justify stages and settings like Final Destination with no items more skillful than Default settings on any stage?

If you think about it for more than a few seconds, you cant really count in the random factor in regards to item spawning or maps throwing things at people, because its equally random for all parties playing, and will statistically even out over the course of a match.

At the moment it seems like the tournament community in Smash consists of people who cant handle the "random" effects.

Its not bashing, its not Trolling, id like an answer and if possible a discussion.

 

[red stone]

it does not necessarily even out over the course of a match. it may not even out over the course of a set.


it evens out over the course of time in different matches, different battles, sets, and games. so yes, statistically it evens out, but it will only truly even out if you include every game ever played.


so basically, stuff like lava or random objects that fall from the sky are looked down upon because in a match, it may not always even out and you may be hit at a crucial moment which could cost you a lot.

don't take this the wrong way though. any competent tourney goer could easily take on a casual of any sort on any stage. however, when everyone is good at the higher levels, they agree amongst themselves to play certain levels and have certain rules to see who's the best according to those rules.

 

[BananaHammock]

Ok. No. Here's the main issue:

For the most part, stages are banned because of possibilities of camping. Hyrule Temple? Fox could run around FOREVER after getting one KO and stall the match for 8 minutes. Onett? You could sit on the other side of one of the houses and wait. Making your opponent come over in a risky attempt to get you. Random effects don't matter so much. That's why Corneria and Brinstar are legal in tournaments.

As for items, One of the bigger problems is the randomly exploding capsules and boxes. Not even you can deny that it would be completely unfair to lose a match because you got blown up by a random box falling in front of you as you were charging up a big smash at your opponent. If it weren't for those stupid exploding boxes (that for some dumb reason you can't turn off!), I personally wouldn't mind seeing "some" items turned on for tourney play.

Still there are some items that are just plain unfair and wouldn't be right for tourneys anyway.

So there's the real reasoning. It was very little to do with random stage effects, just camping issues and exploding boxes and capsules.

Also, does this thread belong here? It should probably end with this...

 

[DstyCube]

While i don't consider myself a 'tourneydude' I feel that tournaments are there to guage who has the most skill out of everyone else. And when you're trying to set a standard when it comes to skill, you want the conditions to be equally fair for each person. And while I feel that in all games in general, whether it be sports, cards, board games, and video games, in some cases requires a little luck to an extent but usually the person/team that wins has the most skill.

From what I understand tournaments try to eliminate as much 'random' effects as possible so that the person who comes out the winner is the one that generally has more skill, and that it wasn't the luck part of the game that pulled them a victory.

For example, say there is a match between Samus and Peach, both are at a relatively high percentage, and Peach is out over the ledge trying ot recover. Samus just unleashes a fully charged blaster only to have a bomb-omb appear right in front of her and gets blasted off the stage. The game would have been a victory for Samus if the bomb-omb hadn't appeared, but instead Peach won because of this random effect. Samus technically had more skill, and loss the match, in this case it wouldn't accurately gauge a person's skill, and that's why i think items, and stages with excessive movement and hazards don't accurately depict a person's skill which is what tournaments are trying to figure out.

 

[Mutated Arm Dude]

Because they can't handle a Bom-bomb in the way of their wavedash.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Well, you see, tournament standards have been raised beyond Final Destination, but still maintain focus on the skill of the individual players. Items aren't in tournament play to simply uphold this reasoning.

Sure, you can have an item that isn't broken. In theory it shouldn't have that much effect, but in this game, adding any random variable or trivial or cause the tide of the battle to go beyond a characters limitations.

Take for example: I have a Fox Ditto at E For All, with items. Since the items were on by default, we agreed to play without using any items that spawn in battle. When I was just about to KO my opponent, a Heart Container spawned in front of him as he was doing his dash attack. It cause him to recover a significant amount of damage, and that made me incapable of coming back within that brief period of time, thus, causing me the match.

This is only an example of how a random variable can change the outcome of a battle. But if you were to experiment, i'm positive that you'll find more examples. This only strenghts the other reason why items are banned; random spawns (Alot of them often carry an explosive crate).

Items aren't in tournament play because of sponateity, strenght and overwhelming disadvantages that can potentially occur from said items. It's not like we hate them, they just aren't a balanced addetive when skill determines the victor.

G'night all, i'm tired.

 

[Elusive Taco]

Ok. No. Here's the main issue:

For the most part, stages are banned because of possibilities of camping. Hyrule Temple? Fox could run around FOREVER after getting one KO and stall the match for 8 minutes. Onett? You could sit on the other side of one of the houses and wait. Making your opponent come over in a risky attempt to get you. Random effects don't matter so much. That's why Corneria and Brinstar are legal in tournaments.

Allthough it is a problem spawned purely from contenders for some kind of world record in lameness, ill give you Hyrule, but with items in play, the Onett situation would be easily avoided by the fact that the non-camper would be in reach of nearly all the item spawns, which he could use to flush out the camping *******.

As for items, One of the bigger problems is the randomly exploding capsules and boxes. Not even you can deny that it would be completely unfair to lose a match because you got blown up by a random box falling in front of you as you were charging up a big smash at your opponent. If it weren't for those stupid exploding boxes (that for some dumb reason you can't turn off!), I personally wouldn't mind seeing "some" items turned on for tourney play.

Still there are some items that are just plain unfair and wouldn't be right for tourneys anyway.

The chance of a hazardous item spawning right in front of you at THE crucial moment is tiny, almost negligable.
I played SSB on a regular basis till SSB:M was released, which i spent the better part of the following two years on, the only time ive witnessed a absolutely unavoidable hazard spawn right in front of a character is recently as i picked up SSB again with some dudes at my uni, which he survived as he was at around 100%.

The thing is, chaos is a factor in smash, and once youre good enough and fast enough at controlling your character, you can start to learn to play the odds and the map.
This is canon in most online competetition games, such as Counter-strike, WC3, WoW, Poker (Most extreme example) But is missing entirely from the fighter Genre, with the exception of Smash.

So what annoys me is that Tournaments encourage the supression of this entire spectrum of play, that adds alot more depth and tactical subtetlies than any other fighter.

 

[Mutated Arm Dude]

Smash is hardly a fighter, notice it's under the category of Action. If you want an entire skill-based fighter with no random factor, go play Street Fighter or something. The Smash titles have basically revolved around the concept of random.

 

[Elusive Taco]

Take for example: I have a Fox Ditto at E For All, with items. Since the items were on by default, we agreed to play without using any items that spawn in battle. When I was just about to KO my opponent, a Heart Container spawned in front of him as he was doing his dash attack. It cause him to recover a significant amount of damage, and that made me incapable of coming back within that brief period of time, thus, causing me the match.

Although i covered item randomness in my previous rant, the heart container is balanced in accordance to its power as it bounces and takes quite a while to land, giving all players a fair chance at it.

 

[shanus]

saying smash is an action game is like saying Debbie Does Dallas is a romantic comedy.... so dont even go into that argument

 

[Mutated Arm Dude]

It's on the ****ing website, Genre: Action. It might not be action to elitists, but it is when not limited to such extreme rules.

 

[Dullahan]

Although i covered item randomness in my previous rant, the heart container is balanced in accordance to its power as it bounces and takes quite a while to land, giving all players a fair chance at it.

You can pick up items in midair in Melee

 

[cF=)]

The chance of a hazardous item spawning right in front of you at THE crucial moment is tiny, almost negligable.

No, it's absolutely not when you're playing for, let's say, $20,000. You wouldn't randomly throw rocks at someone doing the 100 meters, nor would you have fun laying mines under a tennis court just for the sake of randomness.

We're not removing items using Action Replay, it's in the game menu if you decide to turn the chaotic factor on/off; your argument of the game MADE to be chaotic is ludicrous therefore. You also talked about Final Destination being the ONLY good stage, which is false... there's like 8 neutral stages depending on the tournament you're attending plus a bunch of stages where you can counter-pick. You could also host your own tournament with all stages on Random, but like I previously said, people won't bother waging money on that.

 

[LemonManX]

Everyone has pretty much summed it up.

The problem with items in a competitive match is that it adds an uncontrollable variable to the game. It allows for jerks to be item campers, and yes... whilst we could no doubt punish them for it by outmaneuvering them in combat... I just don't think including items in tournaments would accomplish anything.

If I was to lose to some newbie to the game because they lucked out and got a Golden Hammer then I would be pretty mad. Especially if it knocked me out of a tournament.

That's why they sometimes hold special Items Tournaments. They hold no sway in the competitive scene.

Now, there is no doubt items and such make the game fun. But for serious/competitive play it really just unbalances the game even more.

 

[Xanderous]

I NEVER THOUGHT OF IT THAT WAY

get out

 

[Elusive Taco]

No, it's absolutely not when you're playing for, let's say, $20,000. You wouldn't randomly throw rocks at someone doing the 100 meters, nor would you have fun laying mines under a tennis court just for the sake of randomness.

We're not removing items using Action Replay, it's in the game menu if you decide to turn the chaotic factor on/off; your argument of the game MADE to be chaotic is ludicrous therefore. You also talked about Final Destination being the ONLY good stage, which is false... there's like 8 neutral stages depending on the tournament you're attending plus a bunch of stages where you can counter-pick. Really, it's not THAT much stages that are banned.

Completely ignoring some of the stupidest comparisons ive ever seen, ill give in and try with esports instead.

Take CS for example, has been among the most popular games ever, and its no understatement to say that it has helped bring forth eSports a great deal.

Competitions in CS have had prizes ranging up to several hundred thousand dollars being hosted in locations spanning the globe. The Random factor in Cs is limited mostly to the spray of the gun, as almost all weapons have a deviation in accuracy on every shot, and the ones that dont have this inaccuracy have severe weaknesses to make up for it.

Now those who have played proffessionally in CS have learned to control their character precicely, learned to swiftly and accurately bring their crosshairs where they need to be, but from then on out, the rest of the game is all chance.

They know how many bullets in a burst are optimal before it becomes inefficient.
They know what their chances are at various ranges to hit (and kill) an opponent, also factoring cover, backup, and consequence should his position be known.

They know, statistically, where the enemy would be at X amount of seconds since round start. Lobbing accurate grenades and taking pot shots through walls whithout even seeing the enemy.

On the other hand they also know their opponent, and test them out accordingly with feints, double feints, distractions. Mind games.

If you play smash on default, you have huge amounts of depth that you can get into.

Item control, accuracy, ground control, riding the chaos and playing the odds.

 

[Elusive Taco]

That being said, one of the game's strengths is that it can be played and enjoyed in different ways.

 

[MrSilver]

Before I get into this I'd like to note I've always been a big advocate of having items on and a relatively large stage selection. I was one of the last tournament hosts to drop items and I still feel many tournaments have too limited stage selection. That said, I must concede that in Melee items are not suited for high level tournament play.

I think Red Stone said it best, it's a matter of time contraints. Yes, having items on is statistically fair and over a massive number of matches won't skew the results. However, at a tournament there are time constraints which means that you won't be able to play enough matches to iron out any bad luck that might befall a player. Now throw in the fact that there's quite some money and ego's involved and items just quickly become a hinderence more then a boon to a tournament. Having an item decide a match instead of the actions of the players means that the result of that match is partially invalidated. After all, you can hardly claim to be the better player when the only reason you won is because the other guy got blown up (or in my case 7 times over the course of a 2 game set...)

As some people have already stated this is mostly because of the exploding crates which can spawn on someone in the middle of a move, allowing no opportunity to do anything to save themselves. Many of the actual items themselves are less of a problem since they require a more active use to impact the match and also bring in some new levels of skill to the game which somewhat balances out the randomness of their spawning.

For Brawl though I intend to start of playing with items again, just like I did in Melee. Initially it will be more about learning the game then about finding out who is the best so items have much more of a place in such a scenario. And also, just because items where unfit for tournament play in Melee doesn't automatically mean they're no good in Brawl either, especially if there is an option to control the spawning of exploding crates.

 

[just1111]

ok even if items were on.... all you noobs would still get your ***** handed to you by the pro's. so items on or off really would make no difference to an "elite" playing a noob, however, when good people play good people they like stage to be set evenly, thus, no items.

 

[Ghettoblasta]

I've been playing in smash tournaments for quite some time myself. Contrary to my not really posting all that much here on the boards or anything. And as most of us tournament players can attest for is that we all started out playing with items. Items ARE FUN in casual matches amongst friends. They do add a certain factor/charm to the game. But if the game gives you the option to play without items is just as valid as being abe to play it with them. I see the validity in your arguement but look at it from our perspective. As everyone here has said, in the tournament scene, it's just to random of a factor that comes into play. I've played in tournaments with items, and still won. There's this certain "oh ****" factor that we have to worry about. In example. EXPLODING ITEM BOXES. I've lost a number of stock due to the random item box falling out of the sky when I'm in the middle of rushing down my opponent. It sucks when you lose to someting random like that. However, just because we choose not to play with items doesn't mean that we aren't capable of still performing well when this gameplay element is added to the mix. It's just a matter of leveling the playing field to where the most conclusive matches can happen. It's just you, and your opponent, there isn't the whole "Who can grab the super scope first." factor involved. Not to say that item can't be easily avoided it's just an example.

 

[MrSilver]

You give competitive players a bad name Just1111...

 

[Sintenal]

Before I get into this I'd like to note I've always been a big advocate of having items on and a relatively large stage selection. I was one of the last tournament hosts to drop items and I still feel many tournaments have too limited stage selection. That said, I must concede that in Melee items are not suited for high level tournament play.

I think Red Stone said it best, it's a matter of time contraints. Yes, having items on is statistically fair and over a massive number of matches won't skew the results. However, at a tournament there are time constraints which means that you won't be able to play enough matches to iron out any bad luck that might befall a player. Now throw in the fact that there's quite some money and ego's involved and items just quickly become a hinderence more then a boon to a tournament. Having an item decide a match instead of the actions of the players means that the result of that match is partially invalidated. After all, you can hardly claim to be the better player when the only reason you won is because the other guy got blown up (or in my case 7 times over the course of a 2 game set...)

As some people have already stated this is mostly because of the exploding crates which can spawn on someone in the middle of a move, allowing no opportunity to do anything to save themselves. Many of the actual items themselves are less of a problem since they require a more active use to impact the match and also bring in some new levels of skill to the game which somewhat balances out the randomness of their spawning.

For Brawl though I intend to start of playing with items again, just like I did in Melee. Initially it will be more about learning the game then about finding out who is the best so items have much more of a place in such a scenario. And also, just because items where unfit for tournament play in Melee doesn't automatically mean they're no good in Brawl either, especially if there is an option to control the spawning of exploding crates.

qft, entire reason why I stopped going to tournies, 6 stages only wtf

also, omg its Mrsilver!

 

[caduceus]

i always play with items on, im that cool.

 

[himynameisruss]

i find items to get in the way when i'm trying to play. don't like using them at all really...

 

[AR_Sam]

nobody is forcing you to play without your items. nobody is forcing you to play competitive melee. if you go to a tournament you are agreeing to play by the rules. the current set of rules for melee were not made over night. you act as if items add this unbelievable amount of depth to the game, but what you fail to realize is by using AT's and playing by tournament rules the game becomes way more in depth than you care to realize.

 

[dotpwn]

nobody is forcing you to play without your items. nobody is forcing you to play competitive melee. if you go to a tournament you are agreeing to play by the rules. the current set of rules for melee were not made over night. you act as if items add this unbelievable amount of depth to the game, but what you fail to realize is by using AT's and playing by tournament rules the game becomes way more in depth than you care to realize.

Quoted for Truth

 

[the grim lizard]

It's not fun to have the stage be the reason your opponent won.

 

[Jx31]

Why are people still making threads like this? Threads like this are just flame bait, please stop creating them. If you don't go to tournaments or play people who go by tournament rules, you shouldn't be bothered by it.

 

[Andromeda]

Because in competitive smash, people is supposed to win on skill and not luck.

 

[ThatOtherGuy]

Smash is hardly a fighter, notice it's under the category of Action. If you want an entire skill-based fighter with no random factor, go play Street Fighter or something. The Smash titles have basically revolved around the concept of random.

I've seen Guilty Gear XX classified as "Action". Are you going to try to tell me that's not a competitive fighter? It can be either way, something in-between, or something else entirely. It depends on the options you use.

And here I thought the Smash titles revolved around putting Nintendo characters against eachother with a myriad of options available. Maybe you would find your opinion more widely accepted if you went back to a certain imageboard.

As for the OP, I'm largely ambivalent about items. If containers didn't explode, that would be a start, but a lot of the items are purposely unbalanced to, you know, make picking them up worthwhile. Some items, like the hammers and apparently the curry, are difficult or impossible to counter without either using your own item (if there is one) or running around and waiting for either an item or for their item to end. That would change the entire pacing of the game.

Personally for Brawl I hope there's an alternate rule set with limited items (and that containers can be turned off, it never made sense that they were above other items in that regard). But even if there isn't, I won't complain about a consensus decision made by people I rarely if ever play, on the internet.

 

[BigRick]

Items indeed add depth to the game, yes it reduces camping... camping became more predominant because of the lack of items in the first place. You can also play with probabilities is mind, which is a skill that is tested in many other competitive games. Stage Hazards indeed test your anticipation/platforming skills, plus you can make battle tactics around them.

However, the random exploding capsules, crates, barrels is simply something that can't deal with. You have absolutely no control over it...

 

[just1111]

You give competitive players a bad name Just1111...

how is that?

 

[Vortok]

Items in melee (and Smash 64) were turned off mainly for the exploding barrels reasoning. Early tournements had items, with some (healing and overly powerful ones like stars, hammers, etc.) of them turned off.

Brawl (the forum you're posting in) is a new game, and thus it'll be reexamined. Thus far, we haven't seen any exploding capsules, so items may have a chance. There's a good chance that hammers/hearts/a few others will be turned off as their usage can sway the game in one direction or the other a bit too quickly. Many other items still have a chance, though. We'll just have to wait and see.

Stages were banned for a couple reasons. Being able to loop (and run away constantly) was one. Walk-off stages for waveshining, though they also lend to 0% kills when you have moves like certain throws (Ness fthrow on Mushroom Kingdom II, for example) that have set knockback would likely be the other major cause. Again... new game, so we'll have to wait and see.

 

[Kel]

1) This is the brawl forum

2) GB2 Gamefaqs

 

[Dinh]

how is that?

Because you talk trash on people you don't even know. There are about 5 people in the world who are allowed to do that, and at last check Just1111 isn't one of them. Until you learn to argue correctly and to keep baseless flames out of your discussion, please lurk more.

To everyone in this thread:
Items and certain stages are unused in serious tournaments because in a 5 minute match the statistics don't even out. Over the course of 100 matches, then yes, the statistics argument is valid. Not over one match, one set, or even one tournament.
For clarification, I'll give an analogy. In a scientific experiment, one variable is tested. All others are controlled as closely as possible to stop them interfering. In Melee, the variable that is tested is skill. Most items can be included in that "skill variable." However--and this is a BIG however--certain items like exploding capsules, crates, and barrels can completely change the course of a match, and therefore a test of skill, based on a totally random element. There is no way to use skill and experience to cancel that otherwise game-winning move that suddenly killed you because a boolean variable decided to be a 1 instead of a 0.
Taco, you raise some valid points and I can respect you due to your obvious knowledge in Melee and other games. I've never played Counter-Strike, though I can guess what it's like (it's a first-person shooter... come on.) I expect that one bullet deviating slightly could possibly affect the outcome of a game, set, match, tournament in the same way it does in Melee. But not to the same magnitude. Not remotely.
Container-type items have a 12.5% chance to explode instead of bestowing precious rewards. Heart containers heal 100% damage and can be picked up in the air. Bob-ombs (which I see nobody has spelled correctly thus far) explode when you attack them.
Stages like Hyrule are banned because a character like Fox, Shiek, Captain Falcon, et al, can hit you once then run away for the rest of the match, and there is nothing you can do about it. Most stages that introduce completely random elements are banned because of that. Notice that Poké Floats and Rainbow Cruise are both MLG tournament-legal. They follow a set pattern that can be predicted and used by a player with knowledge.

tl;dr Most items require skill, but certain ones are gamebreaking. There is no way to turn off exploding barrels/crates/capsules without all other items also being restricted. The trade-off is worth it. Some stages are banned because they introduce a totally random factor or are completely biased towards certain characters. No, FD isn't totally neutral. Kanto is the best.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Although i covered item randomness in my previous rant, the heart container is balanced in accordance to its power as it bounces and takes quite a while to land, giving all players a fair chance at it.

The Heart Container no longer bounces in Brawl. And sometimes it will either float down or spawn on the ground.

 

[Metalknux]

How exactly do you justify stages and settings like Final Destination with no items more skillful than Default settings on any stage?

If you think about it for more than a few seconds, you cant really count in the random factor in regards to item spawning or maps throwing things at people, because its equally random for all parties playing, and will statistically even out over the course of a match.

At the moment it seems like the tournament community in Smash consists of people who cant handle the "random" effects.

Its not bashing, its not Trolling, id like an answer and if possible a discussion.

I'm getting tired of this. I'm pretty sure the "Elite Tourneydudes" play with items on sometimes just for fun like you do. But in important matches where money is on the line, they don't want luck to be a factor.

 

[Doggalina]

qft, entire reason why I stopped going to tournies, 6 stages only wtf

also, omg its Mrsilver!

WRONG. 6 NEUTRAL stages. After the first match, you can counterpick a wide variety of stages, including PokéFloats (aka Falcon RapeLand)

 

[NES n00b]

. . . .yeah, Sintenal you went to tournies. You should know better then to say that there are only 6 stages.

Second, if any casual player wants to know why stuff are banned, I will pick Fox for each banned level and see how well you do. lol Seriously, it is because of either really bad random factors or overwhelming camping type tatics that cannot be countered.

Items are random. Even if it is miniscule, why do you want to add randomness to a COMPETITION.

And what is with the "elite" tourneydudes ****?

 

[Adi]

Another flamebait some unfortunate tourney goers have fallen into.