Q&A Tips & Answers from a Passing Ninja - Greninja Q&A Thread

[Gunla]

I know the sweetspot of Greninja's U-Smash, but what is the sweetspot of his D-Smash? And does his S-Smash have a sweetspot?

Neither DSmash nor FSmash have sour or sweet spots.

 

[metroidfan987]

Damn. Greninja's D-Smash not having the 'strong' sound effect makes me sad .

 

[Reminae]

How should i be using water shuriken, I'm fairly new to the character and that is a really lacking part of my game. If i should make this its own thread just tell me.

 

[DD_]

How should i be using water shuriken, I'm fairly new to the character and that is a really lacking part of my game. If i should make this its own thread just tell me.

You're in the right thread!

Like most of Greninja's tools, you want to use the shuriken to cover space. it also has a place in footsies where the opponent won't know if you are charging it or not. If someone is playing really turtley you can poke them with little ones, or throw in a big one to cover some ground. It's a very flexible tool that is all about the utility. Experiment with it and see what you can come up with, or more, what it makes your opponents do.

 

[Reminae]

You're in the right thread!

Like most of Greninja's tools, you want to use the shuriken to cover space. it also has a place in footsies where the opponent won't know if you are charging it or not. If someone is playing really turtley you can poke them with little ones, or throw in a big one to cover some ground. It's a very flexible tool that is all about the utility. Experiment with it and see what you can come up with, or more, what it makes your opponents do.

Thanks alot for this, While playing a few sets on smashladder i noticed that water shuriken almost completely shut down sword characters, but characters like samus and villager i really struggled to get in on. What are some ways you guys get around long ranged keep away characters, that have more projectile priority than we do.

 

[TheRealDonquavious]

Greninja'e excellent air and ground mobility allows him to get through projectiles much more easily than most characters. You can either simply WALK toward them and perfect shield or approach through the air if you see the opportunity. Shadow sneaking through then is not recommended, but it might work once as a crazy mixup.

 

[DD_]

If you get a hard read you can shadow sneak. Even if you don't get much out of the hit it will make the opponent consider their projectile habits a bit more. The worst thing you can do is panic and rush in. Just take your time gaining space on the ground or air and if you do opt for air, jumping straight as opposed to forwards is always an options to conciser.

You can catch a lot of people with a straight jump nair after walking towards them, as they may panic and just try to throw themselves at you to get you away

 

[Jamurai]

Not sure if this is the right place to ask this so apologies if not.

I don't know much about the frog so... what's holding Greninja back from being a high-tier threat? He seems like a solid character in general, is he just really hard to play?

 

[TheRealDonquavious]

He has a very bad out of shield game and relatively bad frame data, apart from that he doesn't have too many weaknesses. I personally believe that he is a high tier character or VERY close to it, he just requires a lot more effort and thought to play than a lot of characters. The commitment that it takes to play him and the strange way he plays very often keep people away from trying him

 

[Xam]

Any tips on consistently punishing rolls. I try to walk with the roll and up tilt but it always misses. Maybe some other good moves for roll punishes. Grab is the only other one I can think of.

 

[Shack]

Not sure if this is the right place to ask this so apologies if not.

I don't know much about the frog so... what's holding Greninja back from being a high-tier threat? He seems like a solid character in general, is he just really hard to play?

- One of the worse Shield Grabs in the game, there's literally no point on even attempting to shield grab anything.
- Laggy start up on aerials and his Nair does have follow ups, but he'd be a lot better if he had something with a faster/longer hit box like Mario, Link, etc.
- Requires a lot of practice to get his combos down and kill set ups.
- Struggles to get kills outside of hard reads. He also doesnt have many kill set ups from grab, he pretty much needs to land a jab, dtilt, utilt or nair.
- Doesn't have a safe approach, he relies on out playing and punishing your opponent.

He has a lot of potential, but just lacks the easiness that other characters have when it comes to racking up damage and finishing a stock.

 

[Rizen]

I was playing vs Greninja and couldn't figure out how to punish shadow sneak. How does that move work and when is Greninja vulnerable?

Thanks.

 

[FullMoon]

I was playing vs Greninja and couldn't figure out how to punish shadow sneak. How does that move work and when is Greninja vulnerable?

Thanks.

Shadow Sneak has almost 40 frames of endlag, if you shield it that should plenty of time to punish it.

 

[Dark Dire Wolf]

I've been playing Greninja on the backfoot. I'm not sure if the right phrase to my playstyle is giving up the neutral, but I'm mostly baiting and retreating rather than pushing the action. Is this the right playstyle for the frog?

 

[Guimartgon]

How implemented are footstools in your gameplay? How can I implement them in mine? I never do them and have a ton of issues getting them but then I see a good number of Greninja players getting them on actual players, not CPUs, and getting Dair combos out of them and I feel like there's a big chunk of the frog that I'm not utilizing.

 

[Makani]

I've been playing Greninja on the backfoot. I'm not sure if the right phrase to my playstyle is giving up the neutral, but I'm mostly baiting and retreating rather than pushing the action. Is this the right playstyle for the frog?

I believe so, that's how i've been playing him recently with massive success. Bait and retreat then once you've got your opponent guessing charge them, then back to baiting and retreating.

 

[Sh1n3]

Can someone add me to the Skype Group? Skype name is insertnamehere9912

 

[Illusion.]

Can someone add me to the Skype Group? Skype name is insertnamehere9912

I gotchu.

 

[Sh1n3]

I gotchu.

Thanks CK

 

[Spirst]

How implemented are footstools in your gameplay? How can I implement them in mine? I never do them and have a ton of issues getting them but then I see a good number of Greninja players getting them on actual players, not CPUs, and getting Dair combos out of them and I feel like there's a big chunk of the frog that I'm not utilizing.

Footstool combos are something I wholeheartedly believe every competent Greninja player should have down. Ever since learning them, I feel like Greninja's punish game increases quite noticeably. Being able to tack on 40-ish % from a whiffed smash or whatever other opening you find is reaaaally good. While it may not see use in every game/MU (Luigi is annoying to try it on because of that nair), just the threat of it can be intimidating. What I do is try empty hops to see how the person will react. If they tend to commit, follow the shorthop with a nair and start the footstool combo from there. At higher mid percents, nair>FS stops being reliable and you'll need to make use of dtilt>FS. At even higher percents, you can do jab 2>FS but I don't get that one much at all.

 

[LiL.Will]

@ Spirst
Are the footstool setups guaranteed or is it more off of reading DI?

This is question is for everyone. How do you all use Neutral Air? I rarely almost dont even use it due to it being unsafe on shield and usually not in range to punish with it. I feel passing up this move is dropping a huge tool for Greninja as it leads into combos/kill setups I watched some vids but even then I rarely see high level Greninjas use it.

Another one would be about his bait and punish options when dealing with a character who can camp or has the lead basically in that position I would have to approach to get back in control...yes I know approaching with Greninja is bad but when in that situation what should I do? I had a tough time in the TL MU due to bombs and the boomerang and I felt like I couldn't punish or play the general style of Greninja.

 

[Spirst]

The footstool itself can be DId but it's character dependent on how much it actually matters. Kirby, for example, can DI in towards Greninja after right after Greninja chains nair>FS to escape the forced getup. If he tries to DI away from Greninja though, he'll get hit. If a character like, say, Mewtwo, tried to do this, he would get hit either way since his hurtbox is large. At some point, I'm going to look into this more to see what setups work on what character at a percent range and which characters can DI to get away. Probably won't be for at least 2 weeks though since real life is busy.

As for nair, I use nair for crossups or as punishes for whiffed smashes or any kind of overcommitment actually. It's definitely not something you want to be using too much since it's pretty easily punishable and comes out frame 12. It does have a lot of nice followups though and decent damage. Sweetspot nair>FS at lower percents then sourspot>FS at slightly higher percents works out. Nair>dash attack>RAR bair/Fair. At high percents, sourspot nair>Fair is a kill setup. Nair>Dtilt>FS. And so on. Nair>Fair alone is 25% which is prety damn good for how low effort it is. Greninja's great mobility means the move has good crossup usage on shield to bait things like Mega Man utilt or an OoS option.

 

[cheesecakesquared]

I have been practicing the nair->footstool at low % for a few months now but have only done it twice on an idle CPU.

I am pretty determined to get this down, but I feel like I am just doing it completely wrong. Any advice/words of wisdom?

 

[Spirst]

Try it against a character like Mewtwo/Yoshi at first and have them at about 6% instead of 0%. 0% has a tighter window because of less knockback. At 0%, you can do nair>dtilt>FS but you can practice that later. Do the nair>FS from a running nair instead of standing and then just doing it. The nair should be done just as you're descending from the the shorthop instead of rising with it. A lot of it comes down to muscle memory once you've practiced it enough times. It seems hard at first but it's really not that bad. Also, try not to stiffen up too much once you get the nair or the muscle stiffness will screw with the followup.

 

[Guimartgon]

So I've been trying to implement footstools into my game and so far so good as far as footstooling goes but I'm having issues Dairing fast enough to get the jab lock. The inputs I'm doing are [Nair/Dtilt] inmediate+. What are yours? Do I just need to be more precise/faster? And also, does anyone use tap jump to footstool? Because I have it off like most people and I'm wondering if Greninja should be played with tap jump

 

[Makani]

So I've been trying to implement footstools into my game and so far so good as far as footstooling goes but I'm having issues Dairing fast enough to get the jab lock. The inputs I'm doing are [Nair/Dtilt] inmediate+. What are yours? Do I just need to be more precise/faster? And also, does anyone use tap jump to footstool? Because I have it off like most people and I'm wondering if Greninja should be played with tap jump

It'll probably be easier to just + instead of , your thumb will have to move further to hit the c-stick than the A button.

 

[Masonomace]

Sup Greninja boards. I got a question in regards to something I'm doing with this Jump Height Rankings thread.

Q: I'm messing around testing Greninja's Up Special Hydro Pump, & I have some directions already compiled & tested, but what other joystick directions or patterns do Greninja players use for recovering?

For a reference, I made this table with Greninja's Hydro Pump heights using a custom stage made for testing vertical heights of Up Specials. If you look at the table under the Up direction on the Game cube joystick & see 17/17, this means that the first number was Hydro Pump used from the floor which is considered the Zero platform aka no height, & the second number is the airborne result, which I got by using the 1/4x speed Hold L & tapped L twice to drop through the Zero platform floor & inputted Up B afterwards. So Greninja goes 17 platforms high grounded & airborne when traveling straight up.

Up B | | OR | ANDOR| ORAND | AND
Quick Attack| 11/11 | 7/7 | 17/17 | 17/17 | 14/14
Hydro Pump| 17/17 | 11/11 | 13/13 | 15/15 | 11/11

Notice that Greninja has a different platform height when comparing the directional recovery pattern going diagonal first & then going straight up reaches higher. When Greninja holds up first & then diagonal, he actually goes less high. In Pikachu's case, it doesn't matter much whether Pikachu goes up or diagonal & ends diagonal or up last, he goes the same height in the end. Greninja doesn't though, which is interesting to me because their Up Specials are quite similar.

Thanks in advance. Any tips or help on more recovery patterns to test would be appreciated to the max.

 

[Guimartgon]

Ummm I myself do OR AND OR Quite a bit against slower characters to directly recover onto the stage and stay away from them(Unlike Pikachu, Greninja can slide a lot while landing with Up B).
To snap the ledge I like to go for OR OR OR AND. This is probably one of the safest ways to recover straight to the edge(Only beat by a very well timed drop off bair.)

And then one that some Greninja players do is AND OR AND Helpful to dodge most attempts at edgeguarding you.
Most of these don't necessarily cover a lot of distance but that's the other joystick inputs I use and see other Greninja use

 

[LiL.Will]

Hey Greninja mains once again im having some trouble with Greninja but this time its on dealing with a certain playstyle.

Honestly I have been doing well playing the bait and punish general meta with Greninja but when I deal with more defensive oriented players who actually get more advantage when I give them space I tend to lose pretty badly. How should I play those matches more I try being more aggressive but just like many people have told me on this board Greninja has no approach options so I tend to get stumped on how to counter their walls.

Thanks in advance for anyone answering this really trying to push my Greninja to a high tournament level.

On a side note Spirst or Gunla would it be ok to make a Moveset Discussion thread? I would really like to contribute to Greninja's meta and get the ball rolling as I feel as a character whos considered good he still isn't used very well when it comes to tournament representation.

 

[Spirst]

On a side note Spirst or Gunla would it be ok to make a Moveset Discussion thread? I would really like to contribute to Greninja's meta and get the ball rolling as I feel as a character whos considered good he still isn't used very well when it comes to tournament representation.

Tags don't work after an edit by the way. Wouldn't have saw this unless I manually clicked to read this thread.

That aside, you mean like this? I'd be up for doing that. We have a thread that kind of acts like a moveset thread here but the focus can probably be narrowed. If we get enough people contributing, it could be good discussion.

Thoughts, Gunla ?

 

[LiL.Will]

Tags don't work after an edit by the way. Wouldn't have saw this unless I manually clicked to read this thread.

That aside, you mean like this? I'd be up for doing that. We have a thread that kind of acts like a moveset thread here but the focus can probably be narrowed. If we get enough people contributing, it could be good discussion.

Thoughts, Gunla ?

Yes! Something like that would be wonderful to start as we would really be able to see how we can fully utilize Greninja's tools bit by bit. I always felt the "Mysterious Arsenal" thread was more of an introduction to Greninja just to get a good start on where to go.

I know TTYK started a thread on a list of Greninja's AT's and useful mechanics that benefit Greninja sort of like the one the Shiek boards have what happened with that? I really wanted to help contribute some uses of the ATs I use with Greninja haha.

Also sorry I didn't know that once you edit your post it wont tag them I'll remember that next time thank you.

 

[TTYK]

Yes! Something like that would be wonderful to start as we would really be able to see how we can fully utilize Greninja's tools bit by bit. I always felt the "Mysterious Arsenal" thread was more of an introduction to Greninja just to get a good start on where to go.

I know TTYK started a thread on a list of Greninja's AT's and useful mechanics that benefit Greninja sort of like the one the Shiek boards have what happened with that? I really wanted to help contribute some uses of the ATs I use with Greninja haha.

Also sorry I didn't know that once you edit your post it wont tag them I'll remember that next time thank you.

I stopped working on that thread a long time ago, nobody really seemed to be into it.

 

[Curleh_Mustache]

How do I use nair properly?

 

[Onyxsbayne]

Hello, sorry if it's been asked before, but I was wondering if anyone has any tips with the short hop footstool combos. Since Greninja is a high jumper, it's hard for me to get the footstools off and when I do, I either can't get the Dair fast enough or it doesn't spike them. Any suggestions?

 

[Guimartgon]

How do I use nair properly?

(This is just my view) Sparingly, the move is not too safe on shield, the way to make it safe is to land behind them but that can be hard at times, it's an amazing combo tool just don't treat it as an amazing approaching tool since it's not, look for small openings in your opponent's defense(you can force those openings with good movement, shurikens and safe shield pokes). And then if you're asking of what to do off of a nair, there's a plethora of options, just try them all out. A beginner B&B in my opinion is soft nair to Utilt to Uair at lower %s, and Nair to sweetspot Usmash at higher ones. You can them try to move on to getting Uair spikes from those Nairs which also have a ridiculous amount of follow up options(Such as Nair to Uair spike to Dtilt to Usmash)

Hello, sorry if it's been asked before, but I was wondering if anyone has any tips with the short hop footstool combos. Since Greninja is a high jumper, it's hard for me to get the footstools off and when I do, I either can't get the Dair fast enough or it doesn't spike them. Any suggestions?

I'd love some info on that as well, I still have issues with getting the actual Dair lock. and also, should I be using tap jump to footstool?

 

[Lemonade Candy]

What are my options after ftilt? Trying to incorporate it with perfect pivoting.

 

[Spiralviper]

How effective is Down-throw > RAR B-air?
I haven't seen any Greninja's use it, and I've been using it to moderate success.

Also, what does the shield-stun update mean for Greninja?

 

[Spirst]

Dthrow>RAR Bair is pretty good for mid % stuff. Fthrow>RAR Bair can be used at mid-high %s for maintaining momentum across the stage and setting up for an edgeguard.

The shield-stun update is interesting. If I'm understanding this right, our shuriken on shields should actually be worse than they were pre-patch in certain situations. The minimal shield commitment time (11frames then you can shield drop) is now overlapping with shield stun whereas before, they were separate. What this means is that if someone shields your shuriken during the shield lock frames, the shield stun eats those shield lock frames if there is any to eat and allows them to drop shield sooner than they would have been able to pre-patch because those shield lock frames were gotten rid of by shield stun. If the hitbox connects on shield past those shield lock frames, since there's nothing for the shield stun to eat, they'll take the added shield stun frames before they can use an oos option (which is when they can shield drop). This should let people be able to react faster to shurikens on shield with shield drops provided they time it correctly which isn't too hard to do since punishment for missing powershield isn't as bad with the new overlap.

On the plus side, our nair was -8 on oos options and -1 on shield drop (since shield drop is 7 frames). With the new shieldstun formula, we're likely + on shield drop now. RAR Nair>Jab should be a good option.

Also, taking into account the whole shield drop vs oos thing, Greninja should benefit, I think. He had no actual OoS game to begin with. Shield drop>jab or dtilt or whatever was all he really got out of shield defensive options. Being able to drop shield sooner for jabs is good. I don't like the patch regardless though.

 

[Lavani]

Someone should check and see if it's possible to roll out of fully charged Water Shuriken after shielding a hit. The multihits on it have really low hitlag.

 

[FullMoon]

Someone should check and see if it's possible to roll out of fully charged Water Shuriken after shielding a hit. The multihits on it have really low hitlag.

Quick labbing, but yes you can.