Q&A Tips & Answers from a Passing Ninja - Greninja Q&A Thread

[Shack]

I've noticed this too. One thing people seem to know and look out for is his SHFF Nair, so if they are shield grabbing me, I will just about never use it in the neutral. If they know you like to do it and no one has an advantage they will more than likely shield grab. So yeah I just use it less and only use it when I can which isn't always easy.

Yeah I find myself really only using jabs and dtilts as safe pokes, everything else gets punished hard

 

[E.Lopez]

Short hop fast fall aerials are something you can practice alone and are very important in Greninja`s gameplay.
First learn to short hop and fast fall at the apex of your jump. Since you cannot fast fall before you reach the apex of your jump, this is the fastest way to perform short hop -> fast fall (SHFF).
Then once you can SHFF consistently, try to input an aerial between the SH and FF so that you hit the opponent standing on the ground.
Start with SHFF Nair, then SHFF Fair and SHFF Bair. Fair is the hardest to learn, but also the strongest and safest if spaced right. And practice against a small opponent like Pikachu to make sure that you`ll hit every character in the game, not just the big ones.

I'm in the same boat as _aeth. So I think I just really need to practice this and familiarize myself with the timing of his aerials, which are a bit difficult compared to other characters I use, simply because of the delay in the move coming out as well as how easy it is to jump way too high when trying to short hop in a fight.

That's why I'm struggling a bit right now with my Greninja play. I feel like I can't control him like I want to.

 

[David Galanos]

I'm in the same boat as _aeth. So I think I just really need to practice this and familiarize myself with the timing of his aerials, which are a bit difficult compared to other characters I use, simply because of the delay in the move coming out as well as how easy it is to jump way too high when trying to short hop in a fight.

That's why I'm struggling a bit right now with my Greninja play. I feel like I can't control him like I want to.

It just takes practice. After a while it'll be natural

 

[Talazala]

Yeah I find myself really only using jabs and dtilts as safe pokes, everything else gets punished hard

Are there any grabs that can get get Greninja out of dtilt? Just wondering how safe this is. I know Greninja is pretty low to the ground but I didn't think he was that low.

 

[Shack]

Are there any grabs that can get get Greninja out of dtilt? Just wondering how safe this is. I know Greninja is pretty low to the ground but I didn't think he was that low.

Not sure which ones do and don't, Samus' does since its out for so long.

 

[ephOE]

How do you deal with Greninja's terrible OoS options? Shielding seems so unsafe as Greninja, yet it's a huge part of the game.

 

[NinjaBoy72]

I'm kind of new to smash bros and I'm wanting to get better with greninja, I was wondering how you perform his hydro pump sideways?
I can only start it with him going up then side ways.
seems like you need good reaction speed to do it iunno
Is there a video showing you how to do that?

I use a n3ds xl

 

[David Galanos]

Has anyone had to deal with people who's play style revolves around throwing out moves to keep you from approaching/spacing? I've versed only a few people who do this but those few people have given me a really hard time, and they aren't really all that good of players tbh, except for one, but it feels kind of like a gimmick that they're using to give me a hard time, and there has to be a way around it. I wouldn't even call it spacing because they are mindlessly throwing out ariels and tilts. But does anyone have any advice for this? Shuriken isn't bad to disrupt them but I still can't really approach. Btw Mario is the character they use, but they do it with other characters too.

Please help ;-;

 

[ephOE]

Has anyone had to deal with people who's play style revolves around throwing out moves to keep you from approaching/spacing? I've versed only a few people who do this but those few people have given me a really hard time, and they aren't really all that good of players tbh, except for one, but it feels kind of like a gimmick that they're using to give me a hard time, and there has to be a way around it. I wouldn't even call it spacing because they are mindlessly throwing out ariels and tilts. But does anyone have any advice for this? Shuriken isn't bad to disrupt them but I still can't really approach. Btw Mario is the character they use, but they do it with other characters too.

Please help ;-;

One response is Greninja's spaced Fair, it outranges a lot of things. You just have to practice the timing because it doesn't have long active frames. It's pretty useful against Mario as he suffers from lack of disjoint, but it's a staple in pretty much all of Greninja's neutral game. I think Greninja's Ftilt is underrated, as it's faster than his F smash and has almost the same reach but with no blind spot. You can also angle it up or down, which can help against different approaches. If they're landing on your shield with attacks that autocancel too fast for you to grab (Greninja's standing grab sucks), OoS options include jab and Shadow Sneak. If neither of these are working and you can't seem to do anything to punish them landing on your shield, then you're shielding in one place for too long. Crouching and waiting for a hasty approach works too, since you reduce your hurtbox and can respond with Dtilt.

Shuriken pokes are good too, especially if the other character doesn't have great speed. You can SH before sending one off if you need to hit them in the air. You can also B-reverse or Wavebounce to give yourself a bit of extra room to work with.

Players that try to create walls like this usually get themselves stuck in patterns more than other players, and you can take advantage of this as well. If they are floaty characters, try getting underneath them if it's safe. If not, you should at least be able to dash underneath them and get behind them, either to hit them with a Bair or a pivoted tilt or F smash, or to just get away and make space. Perfect shielding is much easier in Smash 4 and if the other player is throwing out a predictable wall of moves, it should be even easier to execute. Don't let the other player scare you into shielding more than you have to, IMO Greninja's #1 weakness is shield pressure.

Hydro Pump is great for resetting to neutral. Keep in mind it has a little bit of startup, but if you have the space you can just push them away. It won't do much damage but it can keep he pressure off and can mess with the other player's rhythm.

Just remember that an approach isn't made up of just moving towards your opponent and Greninja has to bait a lot. You have less options out of a dash than you do out of walking, so remember that you don't always have to go fast. Sometimes, just waiting in one place is the best option. If they're tossing out lots of quick moves waiting for you to charge in, just walk the other way and see what they do.

Hope this gives some ideas.

 

[mimgrim]

How do you deal with Greninja's terrible OoS options? Shielding seems so unsafe as Greninja, yet it's a huge part of the game.

If you find yourself in shield it is probably best to just clean jump out of it to escape pressure. I would also think an Up Special OoS might be decentish to reset to neutral. But you generally don't want to shield that much as Greninja if you can help it.

I'm kind of new to smash bros and I'm wanting to get better with greninja, I was wondering how you perform his hydro pump sideways?
I can only start it with him going up then side ways.
seems like you need good reaction speed to do it iunno
Is there a video showing you how to do that?

I use a n3ds xl

Preform an Uspecial and then really quickly after that move the control stick to either side. If you go up then sideways then you were to slow in moving the stick to either side. If you perform Shadow Sneak instead then you were moving the control stick to either side too fast.

Has anyone had to deal with people who's play style revolves around throwing out moves to keep you from approaching/spacing? I've versed only a few people who do this but those few people have given me a really hard time, and they aren't really all that good of players tbh, except for one, but it feels kind of like a gimmick that they're using to give me a hard time, and there has to be a way around it. I wouldn't even call it spacing because they are mindlessly throwing out ariels and tilts. But does anyone have any advice for this? Shuriken isn't bad to disrupt them but I still can't really approach. Btw Mario is the character they use, but they do it with other characters too.

Please help ;-;

First off, Greninja does not have a strong approach game. He's more about baiting and punishing. Instead of trying to approach them use Shuriken and stay just out of their range and wait for them to over-extend, and with the play-style you described them as having it is bound to happen often, and punish.

 

[David Galanos]

One response is Greninja's spaced Fair, it outranges a lot of things. You just have to practice the timing because it doesn't have long active frames. It's pretty useful against Mario as he suffers from lack of disjoint, but it's a staple in pretty much all of Greninja's neutral game. I think Greninja's Ftilt is underrated, as it's faster than his F smash and has almost the same reach but with no blind spot. You can also angle it up or down, which can help against different approaches. If they're landing on your shield with attacks that autocancel too fast for you to grab (Greninja's standing grab sucks), OoS options include jab and Shadow Sneak. If neither of these are working and you can't seem to do anything to punish them landing on your shield, then you're shielding in one place for too long. Crouching and waiting for a hasty approach works too, since you reduce your hurtbox and can respond with Dtilt.

Shuriken pokes are good too, especially if the other character doesn't have great speed. You can SH before sending one off if you need to hit them in the air. You can also B-reverse or Wavebounce to give yourself a bit of extra room to work with.

Players that try to create walls like this usually get themselves stuck in patterns more than other players, and you can take advantage of this as well. If they are floaty characters, try getting underneath them if it's safe. If not, you should at least be able to dash underneath them and get behind them, either to hit them with a Bair or a pivoted tilt or F smash, or to just get away and make space. Perfect shielding is much easier in Smash 4 and if the other player is throwing out a predictable wall of moves, it should be even easier to execute. Don't let the other player scare you into shielding more than you have to, IMO Greninja's #1 weakness is shield pressure.

Hydro Pump is great for resetting to neutral. Keep in mind it has a little bit of startup, but if you have the space you can just push them away. It won't do much damage but it can keep he pressure off and can mess with the other player's rhythm.

Just remember that an approach isn't made up of just moving towards your opponent and Greninja has to bait a lot. You have less options out of a dash than you do out of walking, so remember that you don't always have to go fast. Sometimes, just waiting in one place is the best option. If they're tossing out lots of quick moves waiting for you to charge in, just walk the other way and see what they do.

Hope this gives some ideas.

thanks!

Ik this would belong in the MU thread, but I don't want to bring up this character when I missed the week she was in. I was fighting a peach, and he would short hop and go into her float, and then down air over and over, and if i got into the down air he could get a fair or back air off of it. Anyone have any ideas to deal with that? Short hop shuriken? It was kinda hard to deal with cause if I touch her I eat a ton of damage

 

[ephOE]

thanks!

Ik this would belong in the MU thread, but I don't want to bring up this character when I missed the week she was in. I was fighting a peach, and he would short hop and go into her float, and then down air over and over, and if i got into the down air he could get a fair or back air off of it. Anyone have any ideas to deal with that? Short hop shuriken? It was kinda hard to deal with cause if I touch her I eat a ton of damage

If Peach does a short hop and floats, Bair and Fair and WS would all work. Her aerials don't have superb range. And if she short hops instead of floating just above the floor, you can always run underneath her. I believe Greninja's tongue isn't part of his hurtbox when he's using an Utilt, so both Utilt and angled Ftilt might help as well depending on how she approaches.

It's kind of like dealing with other floaty characters, except Peach... actually floats.

 

[Dark Dire Wolf]

Just got the game today, I love it! So I'm maining Greninja, and I've a few questions:

How often do you folks incorporate his tilts? I think his uptilt has some combo potential.

How often do you down smash spike? If I miss, there's a fat chance I've shot downward to my death, so I've found it risky.

Finally, shadow sneak seems slow to start up for me, or I need to buy a newer controller. When I try to hold B to increase the distance, it seems like it takes a while for the move to start, is this the mechanic or just me?

Thanks.

 

[Beach]

So I was looking to pick up Greninja and I was wondering how one should incorporate Hydro Pump gimping into a ledge game because I can't really seem to pull it off well.

 

[ephOE]

Does anyone ever use the regular get up from the ledge? I feel like since Greninja just puts himself in a bad position by shielding, there's no point unless the other player isn't close enough to edgeguard you. I find myself jumping or rolling mostly, getup attack if there's an easy punish, or drop off and use an aerial if I can get a Fair or Bair in, or even Hydro Pump out and back in if they aren't shielding or throwing out lots of hitboxes. But I don't think I ever use the regular get up. Maybe once or twice when I thought being able to jab right away was the best option.

 

[Greninja'd]

What stages benefit Greninja?

 

[Gombi]

Hi i am searching for a speedy character that doesn't have too much of Bad MU to cover my main and i stopped on 2 choice with are Greninja and Pikachu. I would like to know from other people who have experience with it how do those 2 compared to each others, how to they differ from the other ? What are do they have or not have over the other ?

Thanks a lot for the answer

 

[elusiveTranscendent]

Hi i am searching for a speedy character that doesn't have too much of Bad MU to cover my main and i stopped on 2 choice with are Greninja and Pikachu. I would like to know from other people who have experience with it how do those 2 compared to each others, how to they differ from the other ? What are do they have or not have over the other ?

Thanks a lot for the answer

I think somebody brought up this exact question in this thread a bit earlier?

 

[Gombi]

I think somebody brought up this exact question in this thread a bit earlier?

yep found it overall greninja have more range and a bit more killpower but a lot more laggy ?

 

[Falco_Phantasm]

I secondary main greninja and I just wanted to clarify if this would be considered a true combo.

N-air->Down Tilt->Down Throw->F-Smash

 

[elusiveTranscendent]

I secondary main greninja and I just wanted to clarify if this would be considered a true combo.

N-air->Down Tilt->Down Throw->F-Smash

I think somebody could DI out of that Dthrow

 

[Falco_Phantasm]

I think somebody could DI out of that Dthrow

I think it might work better on heavy's, I need to run a few more test

 

[ephOE]

I secondary main greninja and I just wanted to clarify if this would be considered a true combo.

N-air->Down Tilt->Down Throw->F-Smash

Nair > Dtilt might be character specific even at low %. Down Throw to F smash is rarely guaranteed.

 

[V23]

Hi guys, quick quesions as i got alot of mixed up info up this, in the current Wiiu version can you still Uair meteor with fastfall? cuz i saw for example in some places a note that says you cant shadow sneak while running, yet it worked for me (WiiU) sorry if this quesion has been answered 65000 times before, i really want to go full main on greninja and this info is critical.

Also, i think i metored falcon with Fair somehow, is t hat even a thing? or i just had a brainfart o:?

thx guys keep it up[air]

 

[elusiveTranscendent]

Hi guys, quick quesions as i got alot of mixed up info up this, in the current Wiiu version can you still Uair meteor with fastfall? cuz i saw for example in some places a note that says you cant shadow sneak while running, yet it worked for me (WiiU) sorry if this quesion has been answered 65000 times before, i really want to go full main on greninja and this info is critical.

Also, i think i metored falcon with Fair somehow, is t hat even a thing? or i just had a brainfart o:?

thx guys keep it up[air]

Yep! It's still possible to do the uair meteor.
Running Shadow sneak got taken out of the 3DS version so high possibility of it being taken out of the Wii U version in the future.
I have no idea on the fair meteor. Nothing of the sort has ever happened to me.

 

[V23]

Yep! It's still possible to do the uair meteor.
Running Shadow sneak got taken out of the 3DS version so high possibility of it being taken out of the Wii U version in the future.
I have no idea on the fair meteor. Nothing of the sort has ever happened to me.

This reply made me both happy and sad, happy since its on! sad since i wasn't being able to do it not cuz it was taken out but cuz i'm bad.. got any current vids that show it being preformed (and kills) in a live match that i can study? THX btw :DDD

 

[BZero]

So I'm a greninja main and I've seen some players do an aerial reversal shuriken. Anybody have any tips on how to do that cause I keep trying to but it's really difficult.

 

[elusiveTranscendent]

So I'm a greninja main and I've seen some players do an aerial reversal shuriken. Anybody have any tips on how to do that cause I keep trying to but it's really difficult.

It's a b reversal whilst in the air. You do the input for neutral b then flick your control stick in the opposite direction while it's still starting up.

 

[BZero]

It's a b reversal whilst in the air. You do the input for neutral b then flick your control stick in the opposite direction while it's still starting up.

Oh alright. Thanks a lot! Must've been doing it wrong

 

[LiL.Will]

I have been playing this character on the side alot since the release as he is my favorite pokemon but...

I have always had trouble understanding his meta I feel like the character doesn't suit my playstyle but I can't help from not selecting him from time to time. Im a player who really thrives off a heavy neutral game and likes to mostly play aggresively so I have some questions and hope I get some critique if Im even heading in the right direction with him.

I mainly do a lot of empty hops with this character trying to looking mainly for grabs I can't seem to figure out what are great poking moves but I mainly use Jab,Dtilt,and retreating Fair. I like his Bair but its very weird I try to get the knockback hitbox of Bair because I feel its a nice spacing move to use as a mixup.

Nair seems like a great combo starter but it doesn't feel safe at all to use most of the time how is it mainly used?
Do any of his throws give him anything? I know U-throw>Uair is a thing but at higher percents im sure its not a guaranteed combo.

Could anyone give me a list of notable players to watch and why? I've only seen Bajisci,Nietono,and Amsa before the 1.0.4 patch.

Thanks in advance I really love this character and it would be swell to also perform well with him might even main him if I get alot of enjoyment out of it.

 

[Guimartgon]

Hi! I'm still very new to the competitive scene so sorry if I come out as ignorant but is it me or Greninja's bair can spike in a similar way as his Uair? I don't know if this is too important to make a new thread so just gonna ask here.
I think I spiked someone in FG, I got him off the stage and then edgeguarded with the very first kick of the Bair and then Fast Falled and he fell at the same speed as I did, none of the other kicks connected and I then Up B'd horizontally since he was a mario and that would gimp him and then upwards to sweetspot the ledge.

 

[elusiveTranscendent]

Hi! I'm still very new to the competitive scene so sorry if I come out as ignorant but is it me or Greninja's bair can spike in a similar way as his Uair? I don't know if this is too important to make a new thread so just gonna ask here.
I think I spiked someone in FG, I got him off the stage and then edgeguarded with the very first kick of the Bair and then Fast Falled and he fell at the same speed as I did, none of the other kicks connected and I then Up B'd horizontally since he was a mario and that would gimp him and then upwards to sweetspot the ledge.

Theoretically, pretty sure, yes. Seems like it would be a lot harder and inefficient though, considering how bair only has like 3 hits? So you'd only be getting 2 hits of pulldown, cause you'd need to wiff the third.

 

[Funkermonster]

What do you guys use Exploding Attack for? I've been in a customs tournament yesterday and I haven't used any of his customs all that much. I sometimes run off below the ledge and use Exploding Attack to edgeguard, but is there anything else it can be useful for? I know its highly situational, but still.

 

[Gunla]

What do you guys use Exploding Attack for? I've been in a customs tournament yesterday and I haven't used any of his customs all that much. I sometimes run off below the ledge and use Exploding Attack to edgeguard, but is there anything else it can be useful for? I know its highly situational, but still.

Not only does it KO at 100% near a ledge, but it can help deal with some of Villager's campier tools.

It's definitely his most practical custom.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I have been playing this character on the side alot since the release as he is my favorite pokemon but...

I have always had trouble understanding his meta I feel like the character doesn't suit my playstyle but I can't help from not selecting him from time to time. Im a player who really thrives off a heavy neutral game and likes to mostly play aggresively so I have some questions and hope I get some critique if Im even heading in the right direction with him.

I mainly do a lot of empty hops with this character trying to looking mainly for grabs I can't seem to figure out what are great poking moves but I mainly use Jab,Dtilt,and retreating Fair. I like his Bair but its very weird I try to get the knockback hitbox of Bair because I feel its a nice spacing move to use as a mixup.

Nair seems like a great combo starter but it doesn't feel safe at all to use most of the time how is it mainly used?
Do any of his throws give him anything? I know U-throw>Uair is a thing but at higher percents im sure its not a guaranteed combo.

Could anyone give me a list of notable players to watch and why? I've only seen Bajisci,Nietono,and Amsa before the 1.0.4 patch.

Thanks in advance I really love this character and it would be swell to also perform well with him might even main him if I get alot of enjoyment out of it.

Greninja has like no neutral game tools. Shuriken and Bair seems like the only real moves you can use. You're gonna have to use running grabs (cuz his standing grab sucks) and be a little risky. Try to avoid fighting in the neutral game and put as much pressure on your opponent as possible. Dair on shields works along with jab1 > jab2 > running grab > up throw > Uair.

 

[mimgrim]

Greninja has like no neutral game tools. Shuriken and Bair seems like the only real moves you can use. You're gonna have to use running grabs (cuz his standing grab sucks) and be a little risky. Try to avoid fighting in the neutral game and put as much pressure on your opponent as possible. Dair on shields works along with jab1 > jab2 > running grab > up throw > Uair.

Don't listen to this guy, please.

To quote myself from other threads, because I've already gone into this before on why Greninja's neutral isn't bad;

You shouldn't be approaching with Greninja anyway has his approach game isn't that good and that isn't what he is suppose to doing. x_x

You want to give the illusion that you are approaching when in reality what you are doing is just staying just out of the opponents range waiting from them to over commit so you can Punish them. Greninja excels at doing this. If you are playing the neutral any other way with Greninja then you are probably playing him wrong. x_x

I really wish people would get it out of their heads that approaching = the only way to play the neutral game. >_>

Saying Greninja has a bad neutral is... misleading.

Same with Melee Falcon.

You don't simply have some of the best mobility in the game and have a bad neutral as well. It isn't possible.

I think what you guys are looking for is a bad approach game instead of a bad neutral game. And no, they are not one and the same.

The neutral game is about leading to the punish game. About getting your opponent to over extend and do something unsafe in neutral for you to punish. Greninja (and Melee Falcon) are actually great at doing this. But they suck at the aggressive/approaching game which is why they are passive aggressive characters. But their neutral is still really good.

Baiting and punishing is the entirety of the neutral game. The neutral game is the concept of neither plwyer being in advantage or disadvantage with each player trying to get the other into disadvantage while getting yourself into advantage. Nothing more, nothing less.

Mobility is the most important aspect of the neutral game and Greninja is one of the most mobile characters in the game. After that is safe attacks that are hard to punish, of which Greninga does have wehn spaced correctly.

TL:DR Greninja has a fantastic neutral

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Don't listen to this guy, please.

To quote myself from other threads, because I've already gone into this before on why Greninja's neutral isn't bad;







TL:DR Greninja has a fantastic neutral

when i said greninja didn't have a neutral game, i meant that he can't throw out any moves to control space. That's actually poking tools so I kinda misused them. However, I am only partially wrong since poking tools somewhat goes hand-in-hand with the neutral game.

 

[FullMoon]

when i said greninja didn't have a neutral game, i meant that he can't throw out any moves to control space. That's actually poking tools so I kinda misused them. However, I am only partially wrong since poking tools somewhat goes hand-in-hand with the neutral game.

Retreating short hop F-Airs are safe on block and disjointed. From what I remember aMSa uses it a lot. Well spaced F-Airs in general are safe on block as well.

 

[mimgrim]

Poking is just another way of controlling space. x_x

Also Fair is a great neutral tool that controls space beyond just poking.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Poking is just another way of controlling space. x_x

Also Fair is a great neutral tool that controls space beyond just poking.

Oh...... Welp..... I need to hit the lab some more then. Thanks for more knowledge though lol

EDIT: I have a question. How does one use shadow sneak well?