Social "Time to Tip the Scales!" - Robin Social Thread

[Soupenomics]

Yeah, voting multiple times isn't going to work considering the poll is IP locked.

I can dream!

 

[Hong]

In all honesty, the benefit of this poll (with a rather minute and unstable origin) is to assess whether or not others like Robin, and whether or not they like Robin more than Chrom. We already saw that the users prefer Robin over Chrom. Adding more votes to it does not change what we can assess from that poll, since Robin was already more favoured.

Just my two gold.

 

[False Sense]

I guess this just asserts what I said earlier; Robin is, in fact, popular as a character. And it if this pole is any indication, there do seem to be some people who would prefer Robin over Chrom as an SSB4 character. It's not much, but I guess every bit counts.

 

[Hong]

If I may be so bold, I would say that Robin would fall under Sakurai bias, where as Chrom, Lucina, and a few of the older Fire Emblem characters would fall under Intelligent Systems bias.

What do I mean by that?

Well, let's say Sakurai-san plays Awakening on his own volition. This is highly likely, given that it was an immensely popular game for the system that he, if his Twitter and press sightings are anything to believe, plays quite a bit. This is even more likely given that the game, under the precept of it being made as if it would be the last Fire Emblem and try to deliver the best of all the games combined, tried to appeal to fans old and new. Wearing his developer hat, if he lplayed Awakening and wanted a new Fire Emblem character, which of the three protagonists would be most appealing in the best interest of Smash Bros? Robin, no doubt.

Of course, in reality, we don't need developer insight to know that he would discuss things with Intelligent Systems, and they would vouch for Lucina or even Chrom as far as new faces go. But at the same time, I don't think it's unreasonable for Sakurai-san to propose the idea of Robin. He can see beyond the limitations of the character being "My Unit". With Villager, R.O.B. and WFT being in the fray, we know he wants interesting characters, and ones that offer contrast to the existing roster.

You are free to argue anything I have said, but I have solid grounds for vouching for Robin having a decent chance. More so, I can see little reason for taking Chrom or Lucina unless they either want to replace Ike or give them a pairing duo, the latter being a 100% viable solution.

 

[False Sense]

If I may be so bold, I would say that Robin would fall under Sakurai bias, where as Chrom, Lucina, and a few of the older Fire Emblem characters would fall under Intelligent Systems bias.

What do I mean by that?

Well, let's say Sakurai-san plays Awakening on his own volition. This is highly likely, given that it was an immensely popular game for the system that he, if his Twitter and press sightings are anything to believe, plays quite a bit. This is even more likely given that the game, under the precept of it being made as if it would be the last Fire Emblem and try to deliver the best of all the games combined, tried to appeal to fans old and new. Wearing his developer hat, if he lplayed Awakening and wanted a new Fire Emblem character, which of the three protagonists would be most appealing in the best interest of Smash Bros?

Of course, in reality, we don't need developer insight to know that he would discuss things with Intelligent Systems, and they would vouch for Lucina or even Chrom as far as new faces go. But at the same time, I don't think it's unreasonable for Sakurai-san to propose the idea of Robin. He can see beyond the limitations of the character being "My Unit". With Villager, R.O.B. and WFT being in the fray, we know all he wants interesting characters, and ones that offer contrast to the existing roster.

You are free to argue anything I have said, but I have solid grounds for vouching for Robin having a decent chance. More so, I can see little reason for taking Chrom or Lucina unless they either want to replace Ike or give them a pairing duo, the latter being a 100% viable solution.

Given how much emphasis Sakurai has placed on wanting unique characters, I'd think he'd take Robin in a heartbeat if given the chance.

And if that OP is accurate, then the director of Awakening actually favors Robin. So, between Sakurai likely wanting Robin, and IS possibly suggesting Robin...

I think Robin actually has more of a chance than a lot of people give him credit for.

 

[Hong]

Honestly?

I think the first instinct for choosing an Awakening character wouldn't be not one of the three protagonists, but two.

The pairing system could transfer to Smash Bros very naturally, play unlike anyone else and be a lot of fun. That said, it's a tad more complicated to have a character on the sidelines that actually participates. Another dissuasive possibility is that it just doesn't work as imagined, which happens all the time in game development. I can vouch for that.

I don't think Robin needs to be paired to be fun, but I wouldn't be surprised if Chrom/Lucina or Chrom/Robin appear together.

 

[Nightshade98]

Honestly?

I think the first instinct for choosing an Awakening character wouldn't be not one of the three protagonists, but two.

The pairing system could transfer to Smash Bros very naturally, play unlike anyone else and be a lot of fun. That said, it's a tad more complicated to have a character on the sidelines that actually participates. Another dissuasive possibility is that it just doesn't work as imagined, which happens all the time in game development. I can vouch for that.

I don't think Robin needs to be paired to be fun, but I wouldn't be surprised if Chrom/Lucina or Chrom/Robin appear together.

A Chrom/Robin pairing would make both sides happy. Again I want all 3 but i know that's not happening. So this seems like a good way to fit in 2 characters in one. It could offer a very unique gameplay style, as you said.

 

[False Sense]

A Chrom/Robin pairing would make both sides happy. Again I want all 3 but i know that's not happening. So this seems like a good way to fit in 2 characters in one. It could offer a very unique gameplay style, as you said.

...Er...

I don't know if I would really like a tag team of Chrom/Robin. I guess it's the same reason people disliked the idea of a Diddy/Dixie tag team. It just feels odd to me that the characters have to be paired up in order to make it onto the roster, and I'd rather just have one than have both be tacked onto each other's movesets.

 

[Hong]

From my preference, I think Chrom and Lucina would make the more fun duo, specifically because they have a similar spin on the same sword. On the flip-side of things, you can make like a dozen Robin movesets that don't involve Chrom.

 

[Nightshade98]

...Er...

I don't know if I would really like a tag team of Chrom/Robin. I guess it's the same reason people disliked the idea of a Diddy/Dixie tag team. It just feels odd to me that the characters have to be paired up in order to make it onto the roster, and I'd rather just have one than have both be tacked onto each other's movesets.

I'm just throwing around ideas. I want them to be separate characters as much as you do. I'm just stating possibilities.

From my preference, I think Chrom and Lucina would make the more fun duo, specifically because they have a similar spin on the same sword. On the flip-side of things, you can make like a dozen Robin movesets that don't involve Chrom.

It does seem like the best choice if there is a duo character. Chrom and Lucina have very similar fighting styles. Which would make sense for a duo character. And then I get Lucina (Can you tell I'm incredibly biased? Shipping is serious business as you know)

 

[Pacack]

Well, one serious thing going for the tag team idea is that Sakurai did come up with a duo mechanic before that he just couldn't get to work. Since Diddy's obviously back without Dixie, he'll need a different pair of characters if he wants to revisit that mechanic (which is something that he's been shown to do before). Chrom/Robin or Chrom/Lucina would work very well for that if he chooses to go for it.

My preference if we have to have a tag team would definitely be Chrom/Robin, though. Even as a tag team, Chrom and Lucina just don't appeal to me since it would just be adding more blue-haired swordsmen in the end.

And, you know what? I think it would be the preference of Sakurai as well. Remember that the reason Roy was chosen before was because Sakurai wanted a visually unique clone of Marth, and Roy's phir3 worked perfectly. If he was wary about adding characters with too many similarities (specifically from the Fire Emblem series, I might add), then he might very well see Chrom or Chrom/Lucina as too similar to the other Fire Emblem representatives for his tastes. If that's the case, he'd go for Robin, Chrom/Robin, Anna, or Tiki before he goes for Chrom, Lucina, or a Chrom/Lucina tag team.

 

[BluePikmin11]

You can have blue hair and be appealing at the same time from a gameplay perspective.
To completely abandon a character because of a visual similarity doesn't seem like a good idea.

 

[Nightshade98]

Hm.....going back to the Arena Ferox stage apparently there are two versions of the boxing ring stage. Maybe there's two versions of Arena Ferox? I'm probably just overthinking it. Edit: Now that I think about it that wouldn't make much sense

 

[ToothiestAura]

Yeah, voting multiple times isn't going to work considering the poll is IP locked.

Hiding one's IP is dreadfully easy.

Er, in all seriousness, voting multiple times does kind of skew potential evidence we could use in Robin's favor... I know we want to show our support, but we don't want to take it too far, now do we?

Robin was already ahead by 30 or so when I cast my 8 votes.

 

[IsmaR]

Hm.....going back to the Arena Feroc stage apparently there are two versions of the boxing ring stage. Maybe there's two versions of Arena Ferox? I'm probably just overthinking it. Edit: Now that I think about it that wouldn't make much sense

It doesn't sound like overthinking to me. It'd be like Pokemon Stadium's transformations mixed with the chance of alternate stages ala Mushroomy Kingdom. That or "because magic" will ensue.

Don't see how that pertains to Robin, anyway.

 

[Nightshade98]

It doesn't sound like overthinking to me. It'd be like Pokemon Stadium's transformations mixed with the chance of alternate stages ala Mushroomy Kingdom. That or "because magic" will ensue.

Don't see how that pertains to Robin, anyway.

I probably just went on a rant this morning. I'm sorta sickish (now officially a word) so I was kinda out of it earlier

 

[Pacack]

You can have blue hair and be appealing at the same time from a gameplay perspective.
To completely abandon a character because of a visual similarity doesn't seem like a good idea.

True, but how many times are we going to do the same thing with Fire Emblem? There's way more to offer than just blue haired swordsmen, but you'd never guess that from the smash representation alone. It makes the series look incredibly bland to an outsider looking in.

Don't get me wrong, both Marth and Ike are very interesting characters. But, two characters looking that similar and using the same basic weapon already makes the series look a little bland. Adding a third (or fourth) would be a ridiculously bad idea.

 

[Hong]

You can have blue hair and be appealing at the same time from a gameplay perspective.
To completely abandon a character because of a visual similarity doesn't seem like a good idea.

I don't like how it affects people unfamiliar with the series.

Hm.....going back to the Arena Ferox stage apparently there are two versions of the boxing ring stage. Maybe there's two versions of Arena Ferox? I'm probably just overthinking it. Edit: Now that I think about it that wouldn't make much sense

100% valid thing to talk about.

It's possible. There can be some kind of system for choosing alternative arenas on the selection screen or something, and it just hasn't been formally announced.

I still have a hard time imagining how Arena Ferox transforms.

 

[False Sense]

You can have blue hair and be appealing at the same time from a gameplay perspective.
To completely abandon a character because of a visual similarity doesn't seem like a good idea.

Oh, certainly. Visual similarity alone is, I think, not a valid reason for a character's exclusion. Rosalina seems to be evidence of that, considering how much she resembles Peach.

However, it's when the visual similarities is stacked upon similarities in abilities and fighting styles that an issue arises. Chrom not only resembles Marth and Ike from a visual perspective, but he literally has the same abilities as them. It's at a point where I think the developers would have to actively try their hardest to make Chrom NOT be a clone of the other two. While it's not impossible, I don't think that kind of similarity is an appealing trait for a new character. Especially when you have a character like Robin as a possibility, who, contrary to Chrom, has a very wide amount of possibilities for a unique moveset.

 

[FinalStarmen]

[Sakurai] can see beyond the limitations of the character being "My Unit".

With Villager, R.O.B. and WFT being in the fray, we know he wants interesting characters, and ones that offer contrast to the existing roster.

It is rather unfortunate (in fact, it is foolhardy and asinine) there are still incessant complaints over including the Awakening Avatar simply because of his/her role as a "representational" character akin to Villager (and possibly the Mii), disregarding any and all qualitative traits the character yet possesses.

 

[Hong]

It is rather unfortunate (in fact, it is foolhardy and asinine) there are still incessant complaints over including the Awakening Avatar simply because of his/her role as a "representational" character akin to Villager (and possibly the Mii), disregarding any and all qualitative traits the character yet possesses.

What? But since you can customize their appearance, obviously they can't be a playable fighter. I don't want Sakurai-san to shatter the image I had of shota Robin. No amount of moveset potential or character originality is worth an association that a part of the player-base has with the character. We must call off Robin's implementation as a fighter immediately. That would be simply unacceptable.

 

[False Sense]

What? But since you can customize their appearance, obviously they can't be a playable fighter. I don't want Sakurai-san to shatter the image I had of shota Robin. No amount of moveset potential or character originality is worth an association that a part of the player-base has with the character. We must call off Robin's implementation as a fighter immediately. That would be simply unacceptable.

Well, to be fair, Robin's nature as an avatar character is really the only thing going against him/her...

 

[Hong]

Well, to be fair, Robin's nature as an avatar character is really the only thing going against him/her...

If you want My Unit to be an Avatar, that is up to you. If you want to be Link, that is up to you.

The character has a preset personality, preset dialogue and narrative decision. It's localization's fault for calling it "Avatar" instead of focusing the marketing on it being a customizeable unit like they originally were. Not saying they didn't want players to make it a representation of themselves if they wish, but they never specifically designed them to be YOU. Only if you want Robin to be. Even the developers of the game went for crazy looking Robins or female MUs. Obviously they don't associate themselves with the character.

If you want an analogy, look at characters in an MMORPG. The vast majority of players just make a character with the features they like the most for a character, especially with MMORPGs where PCs are not always human. I would argue that even the number of RPers exceed the number of people who try to make a character like them.

I would say Robin is between Link and Villager in terms of association.

You are addressed in Legend of Zelda as being Link, and see things through his eyes, but you can't customize his appearance much. Link's personality is set in stone.
With Villager, little of his origins are presumed. You have no name, little story, and the character never really speaks, so you can't assume a personality.

Robin has the preset story, narrative decisions, and to an extent the characters sometimes address Robin as being you, and you see through her perspective. Examples: Confessions and item shops. Everywhere else, Robin is Robin.

 

[FinalStarmen]

What? But since you can customize their appearance, obviously they can't be a playable fighter. I don't want Sakurai-san to shatter the image I had of shota Robin. No amount of moveset potential or character originality is worth an association that a part of the player-base has with the character. We must call off Robin's implementation as a fighter immediately. That would be simply unacceptable.

There is a misunderstanding. Just to be perfectly concise, I am not directly associating you with this fallacious mindset or even accusing others on this thread of such. Rather, your mention of the Villager and Avatar brought me about a horrible reminder that anytime the two characters are even remotely connected to one another because they are manifestations of the players themselves, I usually bear witness to an argument against the Avatar's inclusions just because of that (the Miis are frequently plagued with this infested disease).

I must note dutifully, again, I was not insinuating you as this mentality, but instead was trying to bring about a semi-related inconvenience I wanted to address (said inconvenience being The Avatar's nature as a "representational" character being a detriment, which it is not). I only used your words as a way of maintaining an on-topic discussion, because I was unsure as how to do so otherwise.

I was unclear in my statement, and I do apologize for the inconvenience.

 

[False Sense]

If you want My Unit to be an Avatar, that is up to you. If you want to be Link, that is up to you.

The character has a preset personality, preset dialogue and narrative decision. It's localization's fault for calling it "Avatar" instead of focusing the marketing on it being a customizeable unit like they originally were. Not saying they didn't want players to make it a representation of themselves if they wish, but they never specifically designed them to be YOU. Only if you want Robin to be. Even the developers of the game went for crazy looking Robins or female MUs. Obviously they don't associate themselves with the character.

If you want an analogy, look at characters in an MMORPG. The vast majority of players just make a character with the features they like the most for a character, especially with MMORPGs where PCs are not always human. I would argue that even the number of RPers exceed the number of people who try to make a character like them.

I would say Robin is between Link and Villager in terms of association.

You are addressed in Legend of Zelda as being Link, and see things through his eyes, but you can't customize his appearance much. Link's personality is set in stone.
With Villager, little of his origins are presumed. You have no name, little story, and the character never really speaks, so you can't assume a personality.

Robin has the preset story, narrative decisions, and to an extent the characters sometimes address Robin as being you, and you see through her perspective. Examples: Confessions and item shops. Everywhere else, Robin is Robin.

This is exactly what I've been saying about Robin all along. He's not so much a pure avatar character, rather a character that has customizability. He's still very defined as a character (and I'd argue he's much more fleshed out than characters like Mario and Link are...).

The main problems Robin has as a potential Smash character are more of the side effects of being an avatar like character, namely the fact that he's not the face of Awakening. That title would go to Chrom. Despite that, I do feel that Robin is the heart of the game, and as a result, a bit more deserving than Chrom.

 

[FlareHabanero]

From my preference, I think Chrom and Lucina would make the more fun duo, specifically because they have a similar spin on the same sword. On the flip-side of things, you can make like a dozen Robin movesets that don't involve Chrom.

Yeah, if you really want a character that can break the game, then go with that. Because, let's face it, nobody knows how the hell to balance duo characters.

 

[Hong]

There is a misunderstanding. Just to be perfectly concise, I am not directly associating you with this fallacious mindset or even accusing others on this thread of such. Rather, your mention of the Villager and Avatar brought me about a horrible reminder that anytime the two characters are even remotely connected to one another because they are manifestations of the players themselves, I usually bear witness to an argument against the Avatar's inclusions just because of that (the Miis are frequently plagued with this infested disease).

I must note dutifully, again, I was not insinuating you as this mentality, but instead was trying to bring about a semi-related inconvenience I wanted to address (said inconvenience being The Avatar's nature as a "representational" character being a detriment, which it is not). I only used your words as a way of maintaining an on-topic discussion, because I was unsure as how to do so otherwise.

I was unclear in my statement, and I do apologize for the inconvenience.

I was being silly, and not targeted at you.

Yeah, if you really want a character that can break the game, then go with that. Because, let's face it, nobody knows how the hell to balance duo characters.

I think it will go fine with Bandai Namco on board.

 

[Sabrewulf238]

If I may be so bold, I would say that Robin would fall under Sakurai bias, where as Chrom, Lucina, and a few of the older Fire Emblem characters would fall under Intelligent Systems bias.

What do I mean by that?

Well, let's say Sakurai-san plays Awakening on his own volition. This is highly likely, given that it was an immensely popular game for the system that he, if his Twitter and press sightings are anything to believe, plays quite a bit. This is even more likely given that the game, under the precept of it being made as if it would be the last Fire Emblem and try to deliver the best of all the games combined, tried to appeal to fans old and new. Wearing his developer hat, if he lplayed Awakening and wanted a new Fire Emblem character, which of the three protagonists would be most appealing in the best interest of Smash Bros? Robin, no doubt.

Of course, in reality, we don't need developer insight to know that he would discuss things with Intelligent Systems, and they would vouch for Lucina or even Chrom as far as new faces go. But at the same time, I don't think it's unreasonable for Sakurai-san to propose the idea of Robin. He can see beyond the limitations of the character being "My Unit". With Villager, R.O.B. and WFT being in the fray, we know he wants interesting characters, and ones that offer contrast to the existing roster.

You are free to argue anything I have said, but I have solid grounds for vouching for Robin having a decent chance. More so, I can see little reason for taking Chrom or Lucina unless they either want to replace Ike or give them a pairing duo, the latter being a 100% viable solution.

I don't think it would be unreasonable to think intelligent systems would also vouch for Robin, along with Chrom and Lucina.

The way you speak makes it sound like Robin is the unimportant black sheep character of awakening that IS wouldn't even consider. Robin kinda fails on the "blank avatar" front since they're still their own defined character, with defined dialogue and a defined storyline surrounding them.

 

[Hong]

I don't think it would be unreasonable to think intelligent systems would also vouch for Robin, along with Chrom and Lucina.

The way you speak makes it sound like Robin is the unimportant black sheep character of awakening that IS wouldn't even consider. Robin kinda fails on the "blank avatar" front since they're still their own defined character, with defined dialogue and a defined storyline surrounding them.

Even though Awakening had a Fire Emblem (the object), Robin in a sense feels like a living Fire Emblem. A large part of the plot importance of Robin is like the Fire Emblem, and the character may as well have been a bloated fish carcass.

Taking that away, you still get more plot relevance from Robin as a character than Chrom, so I suppose you are right. They probably care more about Robin than I give them credit for.

 

[AustarusIV]

The pair-up idea with Chrom and Robin sounds really interesting, but like others have said I don't know how it's going to be balanced out.

If you ask me, I think Robin is interesting enough just by him/herself.

 

[Sabrewulf238]

I could swear I read somewhere that the director's favourite awakening character was Robin.....

Or some notable development member.

 

[FinalStarmen]

To be fair, though, I can understand if somebody were to misinterpret my post. That, and, my sarcasm detector is broken beyond repair.


Moving onto other theoretical matters - let's say with the arrival and end of April, no Fire Emblem newcomer is revealed. Barring Roy's return (or none at all), would the Avatar (Robin, Tactician, etc.) make for a secret character surprise? I find it unlikely, considering Fire Emblem's popularity should be capitalized at its maximum potentiality, but all things considered, would the Avatar be more better-suited as a secret character?

 

[False Sense]

The pair-up idea with Chrom and Robin sounds really interesting, but like others have said I don't know how it's going to be balanced out.

If you ask me, I think Robin is interesting enough just by him/herself.

Personally, if they ended up revealing Chrom/Robin tag team as a newcomer, my reaction would likely be something along the lines of "Oh come on, so you were fine with adding Robin into the game after all but you had to stick Chrom on him/her?"

Robin doesn't need a backup character to be unique.

 

[ToothiestAura]

The pair-up idea with Chrom and Robin sounds really interesting, but like others have said I don't know how it's going to be balanced out.

If you ask me, I think Robin is interesting enough just by him/herself.

I feel that if Robin is given a stance change moveset that would be essentially the same thing as giving us a Robin and Chrom tag team. Robin for the magic and Chrom for the sword. It makes more sense too. Gives us the two main characters. Plus, Robin's not that great with a sword anyway.

Despite that, I'd still rather Robin alone. I just wouldn't be upset if it were a tag team.

 

[Deleted member]

Well, speaking about Chrom/Robin duo :

http://smashboards.com/threads/chrom-and-robin-the-shepherds-of-ylisse-awaken-for-ssb4.340775/

 

[Nightshade98]

Well, speaking about Chrom/Robin duo :

http://smashboards.com/threads/chrom-and-robin-the-shepherds-of-ylisse-awaken-for-ssb4.340775/

Yeah. Someone's been busy.

Even though Awakening had a Fire Emblem (the object), Robin in a sense feels like a living Fire Emblem. A large part of the plot importance of Robin is like the Fire Emblem, and the character may as well have been a bloated fish carcass.

Taking that away, you still get more plot relevance from Robin as a character than Chrom, so I suppose you are right. They probably care more about Robin than I give them credit for.

Like it was said earlier , they put a LOT of time into Robin. They do care about him. Also, here's a random question, Would Robin technically count as a Fire Emblem hero AND villain in Smash? He is technically the final boss, Grima possessed or not.

 

[False Sense]

Yeah. Someone's been busy.

Like it was said earlier , they put a LOT of time into Robin. They do care about him. Also, here's a random question, Would Robin technically count as a Fire Emblem hero AND villain in Smash? He is technically the final boss, Grima possessed or not.

I've thought of this before. Technically, I would think no, he'd/she'd be more of a hero than anything. But at the same time, this is probably the closest the Fire Emblem series can get to having a villain character. With the constantly changing character lineup, Smash can't really invest in more than one character per saga, so adding a villain for the franchise is likely not going to happen anytime in the near future. So I guess Robin could be considered sort of villainous, especially if his/her Final Smash incorporates Grima.

 

[GuyWithTheFace]

Moving onto other theoretical matters - let's say with the arrival and end of April, no Fire Emblem newcomer is revealed. Barring Roy's return (or none at all), would the Avatar (Robin, Tactician, etc.) make for a secret character surprise? I find it unlikely, considering Fire Emblem's popularity should be capitalized at its maximum potentiality, but all things considered, would the Avatar be more better-suited as a secret character?

I could very well see Robin as a secret character, but not seeing Robin in April doesn't mean no Robin/Robin is secret. Rosalina wasn't revealed for SM3DW, and a release seems to take precedence over an anniversary...

 

[Hong]

Yeah. Someone's been busy.

Like it was said earlier , they put a LOT of time into Robin. They do care about him. Also, here's a random question, Would Robin technically count as a Fire Emblem hero AND villain in Smash? He is technically the final boss, Grima possessed or not.

When Robin is sane, she is a hero. When Grima wrests control of her mind, she is a villain.

In my moveset, I tried to incorporate a Final Smash that has Grima taking control for a moment, as well as a few moves that draw upon the darkness.

That said, for all intents and purposes, Robin is under the hero category. Grima (controlling Robin) is certainly a possible PC in of himself, however. I imagine some Ganondorf-esque strikes that deliver dark flames and electricity, as well as calling up spikes through the ground.

One of 2373269329062 ways to make Robin a valid and interesting character.

 

[FlareHabanero]

I think it will go fine with Bandai Namco on board.

Nope.

Making these type of characters is very easy to mess up, even for professionals.

I'm just so squeamish over any type of duo, due to the failed attempts at doing it with Ice Climbers.