Tiers? (Include an explaination)

[rokimomi]

ok. see everyone one here is putting down their tiers list and everyones is different. I'm saying nobody is the best. its just on your perefernce.

Tiers are not on preference. Link is obviously worse than most characters yes? So if it was my preference to put him on top, that would be contradictory to the facts. MMMMyesss. I was once flamed for giving my opinion as well.

 

[Houndoomshocka]

You guys are funny. Remember, you need to have explainations with it!

Top Tier:
Fox - Speed and Agility. Fox can move fast and pull off attacks in any direction quickly.
Kirby - If you don't KO Kirby, he will get back on stage and stone you.

High Tier:
Samus - In my CPU experience, Samus has typically lasted the longest when I play against 3 Level 9 CPUs
Luigi - Good jumping and power
Ness - Powerful and annoying attacks

Mid Top Tier:
Pikachu - Agile, but on the light side. If Pikachu's special attacks were a little harder to dodge, he'd be in the top.

Mid Tier:
Captain Falcon - Falcon Punch is powerful to land, but hard to land. Top Speed, but not the fastest attacks.
Mario - Mid of Mid Tier. Go figure
Yoshi - Slow attacks and movement, but high endurance and 2nd jump is difficult to stop

Low Tier:
Link - Worst jumping capability. Good attacks but slow, and a slow grab.
Jigglypuff - Worst endurance. Easily KO'ed before 100%, and no 3rd Jump.
Donkey Kong - Slow attacks and easy to hit. Relatively weak (%wise) grab, and easy to KO when there is no land under him.

There
we
go

 

[rokimomi]

^ ...BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!. No sir, you are the funny one.

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

Kirby - If you don't KO Kirby, he will get back on stage and stone you.

I didn't know kirby was a drug dealer

 

[platinum kirby]

Yeah, that guy's list is the silliest list I've ever beheld >_>.

 

[Iggy K]

You guys are funny. Remember, you need to have explainations with it!

Top Tier:
Fox - Speed and Agility. Fox can move fast and pull off attacks in any direction quickly.
Kirby - If you don't KO Kirby, he will get back on stage and stone you.

High Tier:
Samus - In my CPU experience, Samus has typically lasted the longest when I play against 3 Level 9 CPUs
Luigi - Good jumping and power
Ness - Powerful and annoying attacks

Mid Top Tier:
Pikachu - Agile, but on the light side. If Pikachu's special attacks were a little harder to dodge, he'd be in the top.

Mid Tier:
Captain Falcon - Falcon Punch is powerful to land, but hard to land. Top Speed, but not the fastest attacks.
Mario - Mid of Mid Tier. Go figure
Yoshi - Slow attacks and movement, but high endurance and 2nd jump is difficult to stop

Low Tier:
Link - Worst jumping capability. Good attacks but slow, and a slow grab.
Jigglypuff - Worst endurance. Easily KO'ed before 100%, and no 3rd Jump.
Donkey Kong - Slow attacks and easy to hit. Relatively weak (%wise) grab, and easy to KO when there is no land under him.

There
we
go

Yes, WE'RE the funny ones.

 

[Dancin Jesus]

Tiers are not on preference. Link is obviously worse than most characters yes? So if it was my preference to put him on top, that would be contradictory to the facts. MMMMyesss. I was once flamed for giving my opinion as well.

??? u can be link and be better than isai being fox. its possible, therefore it doesnt mean link is better or worse, hes your character of preference. tiers just cant be set, thats all. no set list.

if people dissagree obviously its not set.

 

[rokimomi]

Its based on people playing on the same lvl. If you made a copy of yourself, and battled the two. Who would more likely win. Its usually based of tournies. Since 64 dosent have many tournies, its all statistics. Numbers. Measurements. Speed. Etc. You see now? Technically all the players isai uses are top tier in your method. I agree there's no set tier, but there's at least a foundation.

 

[Dancin Jesus]

Its based on people playing on the same lvl. If you made a copy of yourself, and battled the two. Who would more likely win. Its usually based of tournies. Since 64 dosent have many tournies, its all statistics. Numbers. Measurements. Speed. Etc. You see now? Technically all the players isai uses are top tier in your method. I agree there's no set tier, but there's at least a foundation.

agreed 100%

 

[Fabrian]

Its based on people playing on the same lvl. If you made a copy of yourself, and battled the two. Who would more likely win. Its usually based of tournies. Since 64 dosent have many tournies, its all statistics. Numbers. Measurements. Speed. Etc. You see now? Technically all the players isai uses are top tier in your method. I agree there's no set tier, but there's at least a foundation.

Agreed 85%
Wouldn't that make no sense to base tiers on lets say a copy of yourself? I mean in this game every charachter has a diffrent feel to them. That would lead to diffrent gameplay styles and when your that far out in the familly tree and you figure out none of them are at all related in this game it becomes somewhat impossible to make a tier list.

Even Isai has fought some japanese Dks that owned him once or twice.

 

[rokimomi]

Every one has fought someone that owned them. In melee, Game and Watches pull ahead. But its based off tourney resaults. We would need to conduct various tournyments and vast numbers of players to acheive a tier list as accurate as melee's is now. Remember that fox used to be like, third, now he's number one and falco moved up a bunch and is number 2. Its the majority as well. I dont know how to explain it better. But dont tempt me. OH yeah.

Current Metagame. Thats the key phrase.

 

[ShoeThief]

Basically, If all characters were played to their full potential by players of equal skill, and in conditions where no character had an edge based off of stage, items, luck, etc.

The tiers would come into play. Thus, Pika would win, Kirby second, Ness third, Fox fourth, and so on.

 

[Fabrian]

Basically, If all characters were played to their full potential by players of equal skill, and in conditions where no character had an edge based off of stage, items, luck, etc.

The tiers would come into play. Thus, Pika would win, Kirby second, Ness third, Fox fourth, and so on.

The problem with that is that all the characters have counterparts which they do bad against.
C.Falcon its kirby and ness mostly
Yoshi its luigi and jiggly
Kirby its fox... you know what i mean
So then tiers is completely based on personal preference as characters have their counterparts. The reason why we think in ranks from highest to lowest is because of the ability of the players themselfves, who can't keep up (or have a harder time) with the disadvantages of certain characters to be able to consider them to be good ( that or many have not seen any master a less popular character).

Some people make ness look like hes invincible. Some make yoshi look like he has an unlimited star. Some make pika look like he's the best edgeguarding king. Some make kirby look like he's using a gameshark code. Even some who make fox look like he was from Marvel vs Capcom... but not even malva has been able to do great things with all characters in a match.

because tiers are mostly based on personal preference and we have not seen everykind of player in this game yet, I'll say that we should base these rankings more on popularity.

Really though from what I've seen that is what most of you have done anyways.

 

[rokimomi]

Well, yah. Falco pwns fox, yet fox is highest. If we organize more tournies, then some tiers could pop up.

 

[Dancin Jesus]

Well, i agree with falcon and fox being in the top. Every falcon player i play usally pwns me. I've beaten a few but he is an amazing player if u learn him right

 

[ckrocker]

its true, there's a lot of possibilities for Fox being #1...although I like Falcon better.

 

[platinum kirby]

Yes, Fox has many more chances of beeing pushed up to the top tier.

And no. The list still reflects, as of what is known so far, that statistically, tactically, strategically and skill-wise, pika is top tier, jiggz is mid, etc.

 

[Fabrian]

Yes, Fox has many more chances of beeing pushed up to the top tier.

And no. The list still reflects, as of what is known so far, that statistically, tactically, strategically and skill-wise, pika is top tier, jiggz is mid, etc.

I still quote that "Most of us" have still not seen all the characters mastered... Many more people play fox/pika nowadays so I still think it's based on popularity.

 

[platinum kirby]

Wrong again. several experts and pros have played the characters well and long and thoroughly enough to have come up with a more or less solid tier list for this game. The current metagame is awfully poor, and I'm sure the tier list could slightly change if we made tournments, but definitely NOT by much, not even close, no no no.

I don't know why you keep on saying that the list is based on popularity. This is not a popularity list, it's a TIER list. And if people suddenly started using Jigglypuff more than Pikachu, I HIGHLY doubt they'll discover any strategy or tactic that would put her above Pikachu. >_>

 

[rokimomi]

Lets see by this next tourny. I wanna see link go up in the ranks.

 

[Fabrian]

Wrong again. several experts and pros have played the characters well and long and thoroughly enough to have come up with a more or less solid tier list for this game. The current metagame is awfully poor, and I'm sure the tier list could slightly change if we made tournments, but definitely NOT by much, not even close, no no no.

I don't know why you keep on saying that the list is based on popularity. This is not a popularity list, it's a TIER list. And if people suddenly started using Jigglypuff more than Pikachu, I HIGHLY doubt they'll discover any strategy or tactic that would put her above Pikachu. >_>

there are some moves/tactics that have been used outside this area of the world.. like in that chinese match of yoshi vs fox...

 

[platinum kirby]

LMAO. First, it's not Chinese, it's japanese. It's sossy's Yoshi vs. I don't remember who's Fox.

Sossy uses parry, DJC, low DJC, crouch cancels...Fox player uses SH double laser, shine cancelling and others.

There are no tactics that we are not aware of, as of now. The latest was Jiggs' super dash but it turned out to be not so practical, , so it wasn't taken very seriously (though it looks cool as hell).

Again, wrong.

 

[platinum kirby]

on a side note, I've played the japanese version and the physics are different. **** Link...

 

[greenblob]

I still quote that "Most of us" have still not seen all the characters mastered... Many more people play fox/pika nowadays so I still think it's based on popularity.

Actually, I rarely see Pikachu players. If tiers were a popularity list, it'd look something like this:

Kirby
Mario
Ness
Fox
Link
Luigi
Falcon
Samus
DK
Pikachu
Yoshi
Jigglypuff

 

[Fabrian]

^^ yes they were chinese because it wasn't sossy... I know which match your talking about... I'm talking about one i saw from vid from china...
I have friends that live there also in korea and in singapore 2 in philippines...
Oh wait justapnoy is there with his friends that i all know IRL... so that makes countless people

 

[platinum kirby]

Oh, My mistake then, I apologize.

Even so, I can't imagine which unknown techniques they could be using. Isai pretty much uses everything and he left nothing conceived when he taught me new stuff last August....O.o.....

 

[rokimomi]

Oh, My mistake then, I apologize.

Even so, I can't imagine which unknown techniques they could be using. Isai pretty much uses everything and he left nothing conceived when he taught me new stuff last August....O.o.....

New? Are there any we dont know?

 

[platinum kirby]

This guy Fabrian claims that there are not widely known/well-known techniques that he has noticed from wacthing certain vids. I'd like to know what so claimed tactics are.

 

[Fabrian]

This guy Fabrian claims that there are not widely known/well-known techniques that he has noticed from wacthing certain vids. I'd like to know what so claimed tactics are.

Malva hasn't used everything... he said so himself in the ssb pros board when it was up. He's faced people even now that do things that he didn't know could be done. Until someone totally masters all characters I'll still believe that tiers are based more on popularity then anything else. ( I played Malva many times he's more than amazing, but he hasn't mastered every character...)

If someone finds me online i'll be glad to do a demo ^^ but I can't do all of them because of my dam keyboard.

 

[platinum kirby]

X_X....I guess we'll never agree upon the same thing.

Yes, I'm aware he hasn't mastered every character. Then again, the list is based on the techniques, tactics and strategies that have been discovered for each character. It is true that, at the beginnig (mostly), the more popular characters are up there because his/her good tactics are discovered first. However, it's been more than seven years and people have played the characters long enough to come up with a fairly solid tier list, so far.

I'm pretty sure there are techniques we are not aware of, but 1) Until someone discovers a technique for a character that remarkably boosts his/her gameplay (which has happened yet, and that's why I point out I want to know what new stuff you're talking about), there won't be changes in the tier list, and 2) The list is still N - O - T based on popularity. It's based on bla bla bla that,up to now, we know about each character and how effectively that can be used against each fighter, regardless there are 100 things we don't know about Link or Samus.

Ready for reply!

 

[Fabrian]

^^ well I only said that because I remember when everyone used to play kirby, kirby = top of the top. Then fox and pika are the top picks nowadays (pika usually is chosen on the second match.) They are moving in and now kirby went down.

Ness went up a bit after the djc videos. Falcon is close and right under ness right now because falcon has easy 0 to death combos but he takes timing and no one wants to play him (by that i mean less people play him as a main); but he has potential.

 

[platinum kirby]

Yeah, at first it seemed popularity=top tier, but not now, not for any game now.

And Ness had been considered high->top before DJC became widely known.

 

[Fabrian]

Yeah, at first it seemed popularity=top tier, but not now, not for any game now.

And Ness had been considered high->top before DJC became widely known.

thats because people liked him for his down smash >.> same thing he was still popular.

 

[ant-d]

Lol? As if the tier list is based purely/mainly upon popularity. Platinum Kirby is exactly right.

Popular characters are popular because they are good characters. Of course they are high on the tier list =/

 

[Fabrian]

Lol? As if the tier list is based purely/mainly upon popularity. Platinum Kirby is exactly right.

I said most of these are based on popularity my point was that if we make one now it's like adding to the fad...

 

[platinum kirby]

Having a good spike has nothing to do with the tier list of that time. People liked Samus' spike just as much and she was never considered past low-mid tier. Why don't you go argue this popularity=tier list thing with CvS2, Marvel vs. Capcom 2, SFA3 or KOF players? Maybe they can give you reasons that I, seemingly, haven't been able to make you understand...

 

[Fabrian]

I meant that spammable down smash attack with the yo-yo. The only spike that actually affects anything is kirby's down aerial and yoshi's.
And don't worry platinum I came to common terms with you and that last post on the popularity thing you don't need to defend yourself. I just don't want to see another weird tier list that makes people talk on kaillera.

I'm still willing to give a demo of the new things i've seen

 

[Eric Cartman]

Sorry, I don't mean to be double posting but I do have quite a lot to say on this topic and now I'll make an explanation to the teirs as I see them.

*TOP*
Captain Falcon
Fox
Samus
Kirby


C.Falcon, Fox and Kirby are in the Top because of several aspects that make them stand out. Speed(C.Falcon and Fox), Agility(All 4), Jump - Attack Combos(All 4) and Power (Samus and partially Kirby.)

Speed and agility is always a very useful aspect in SSB...it's just that kind of game. It actually depends on the player and what he relies on...speed&agility or power&defense.

The "Jump - Attack Combos" are the best for these 4 chars.:
Captain Falcon's jump and "Explosive Air Kick" is "well rounded" and this is because of his agility and recover rate. This also slows down the opponent's recovering (e.g. burns).
Fox's jump and "Thrust Forward" is rather slow but makes up for it with it's power. This also has an affect of slowing down the recover rate but not as much.
Samus's jump with "Multiple Spining" is very useful and that's why it deserves noticing. Not only does it seriously slow down the opponent's recover rate but can be used to hold off other foes using the mines in the air (you've gotta really move your fingers on that one.)
Kirby's jump and "Sword Smash" is actually pretty "horrible" because of the unability to move sideways and diagonaly during the attack. This aspect of it can even finish you off if you aren't careful using it off the edge...but there is also a good side to this, you can always take someone off the edge with Kirby using this smash.

Samus's poor agility and speed (although they're not THAT poor) he makes up with his "power" moves (if oyu can do them right.) Kirby's power depends of course on the character that was asimilated (sucked up) by Kirby. Kirby by himself (just plain Kirby) isn't really a force to be meddled with when talking about power but other aspects make up for that...agility, recover rate and others.

All together the throwing aspect of these 4 is well enough to make it to Top and I guess all the other aspects are up there with it. There don't seem to be problems with the third jump either except for Fox.


*MIDDLE*
Pikachu
Ness
Jigglypuff
Mario
Link


The Middle is filled with those chars mostly becuase of the overall qualities: Speed (not extreme speed but fast enough, except for Link), Power (Link's, Ness's and Jigglypuff's powers aren't that bad) and Even Qualities (Mario, Pickachu and probably all others in here are just plain "OK"...there's just no way to explain this...

Although Link IS slow and lacks a good third jump,in my opinion he barely makes it to Middle but he just has "something"...

All together these 5 are "good" but note that I put "" around good...the third jump and throws are "well enough" to be Middle


*LOW*
DK
Luigi


Well, Luigi is just "not good enough to cut it". This is usually caused by the almost identical attacks between Mario and Luigi. As SLaKKiCHu said, "It's hard to think that Luigi, a character that falls only slightly short of Mario in most catagories should be rated so low, but I guess that's the nature of Smash."

DK just doesn't cut it...His overall qualities are too low to be made up by his power.

All together these are just the "Trash", not to offend anyone but these 2 just don't cut it.

You are a complete ******* noob...how is samus *TOP* tier??? She's an awful character, all around

 

[Fabrian]

T.T samus might not be great but she isn't trash and luigi does not suck...
But that guy you quoted eric, thinks samus is a male character anyways Xd...

 

[Darth Taco]

ZOMG, Fox Pwns all! I always win with Fox, ALWAYS. Fox for Prez! (Or top tier)