Tiers? (Include an explaination)

[BETA]

Yeah, I try to avoid using such a broken attack unless my opponent continually uses their character's broken moves.

The problem is that it's not easy dodging the move most of the time, seeing as how Yoshi can use his double jump to get through nearly ever countermeasure.

 

[Metà]

I never played SSB64 very competitively, but I did place second at the only tournament I competed at, against some of the best in my district. I was only about 11 at the time. I didn't even know how to L-cancel, but I had great timing, and found a way out of most "cheap" maneuvers people could dish out. Often, when people got frustrated with my playing style, I would just switch characters.

 

[rokimomi]

I use a sort of "get in your face tactic" in which I dont run away at all. Not really a tactic, but I find runing away a bad defence and if there are platforms, I use them to move around with even shorthops.

 

[platinum kirby]

Yoshi is also about DJCed N-air, dash attack, neutral A poking, and some egg projectile tactics, as well as DJC evading and mind games.

AND DK ISN'T BOTTOM TIER =/

 

[THE RED SPARROW]

^SPIKE!!!

 

[technomancer]

Here is my tier list:

Highest:
Kirby

Kirby, while not the best land fighter, is capable of removing a stock from any character at any time. His mindgames are great because of his multiple jumps. Also has powerful smashes and versatality of moves.

High:
Pikachu
Ness
Fox
C. Falcon

Pikachu's edgegaurding is sick and he combos very well.
Ness has 0-death rapid stomp combos that are difficult but very powerful, and all around, his close combat skills are the best in the game.
Fox makes it because of his land-cancellable deflector, excellent throw, and great speed.
C. Falcon is the fastest character in the game. He edgeguards reasonably, but has a huge array of attacks to get you off the edge. He juggles competitvely also. Falcon kick is solid when unexpected.

Middle:
Yoshi
Samus
Jigglypuff


Yoshi's Egg and eat move give him versatality, and his DjC can function very similar to Ness's for excellent combos. He has a good spike, but just doesn't compete with the faster characters.

Samus makes middle tier because of her variety and ease of finishing, as well as her weight. A good samus can beat nearly every playable character.

Sleep is very powerful and comboable, but not enough to save Jiggly from the faster characters. Very playable, but overall too slow and not enough like Kirby.

Low:
Link
Mario
Luigi

These characters are just not fast enough and don't do anything cool.

Link has a solid projectile game and powerful moves, but no real speed and tons of lag. He's very exploitable.

Mario has a solid projectile game and is very well rounded, but nothing really exploitable and a weak edgeguarding game.

Luigi is like Mario without any finishing power.

 

[Iggy K]

I think it would go something like this

Top Tier

Kirby
Pikachu
Ness

High Tier
Fox
Yoshi/Captain Falcon (can't decide which is better)
Jigglypuff

Middle Tier
Mario
DK

Low tier
Samus
Luigi
Link

 

[THE RED SPARROW]

Yeah, I try to avoid using such a broken attack unless my opponent continually uses their character's broken moves.

The problem is that it's not easy dodging the move most of the time, seeing as how Yoshi can use his double jump to get through nearly ever countermeasure.

It's in the game, live with it or don't get hit by it. I hate being shine comboed in SSBM by Falco but I don't go around instructing people to stop because it's "cheap." If it's so easy then learn ways to avoid it while exploiting Yoshi's blatant weaknesses.

PS, sorry if I sounded harsh, wasn't really my intention. Yoshi's DJ attacks are more annoying IMO.

 

[anactofdan]

Mario

I agree that Kirby is with out question the undisputed master of Smash 64 he is a powerful lagless forward smash excellent drill kicks and can spike you at just about any percentage while recovering with ease. I also agree with pichachu as a high Tier charcter he has a good back throw recover and aerial combo moves. What I am really here for is to represent mario which most people seem to be placing in the middle of thier middle tier. I believe mario to be third best after kirby and pichachu for several reasons. First his projectile is excellent and is a great way to get at a constant shield grabbing oppenent. All his smashs are strong perticular his up smash which can hit in front and slightly behind mario and has incrediable ko power. His recover is not amazing but it is effective and it has the huge benefit of being very diffucult to spike. This alone is the man reason i believe mario should be upper tier. With how powerful kirby and to extent ness are it is a blessing to often times be able to rip through them with your recover where even pichachu would get slammed down while he was changing direction in his quick attack

 

[rokimomi]

I on the other hand think that luigi deserves more credit than he's getting. His antigravity boots, or whatever makes him slide so far after being hit, ruins most combos and to the person who said he was like a mario with out a finisher, i think its the other way around.

 

[ant-d]

The tier list is based too much on combos which can be "escaped" with average DI skills. Luckily I don't care too much about the Tier List then =)

 

[jpwright]

In ranked order.

Top:

1. Ness - When mastered, his recovery move can be one of the most effective in the game, he has a great throw rating, decent smashes and speed, projectile attacks, and PK Fire. He's all-powerful. SPIIIIIIIIIKE!

2. Kirby - Kirby below Ness?! I think so. Ness has a distinct advantage over Kirby because of PK Thunder - a projectile move that's easy to control and can negate most of Kirby's offensive moves. His throws help here too. Kirby is top tier because of his recovery move, which is pretty decent, about equivalent to Ness.

Middle:

3. Pikachu - I was tempted to put Pikachu in top tier but decided against it for a few reasons - first, Pikachu just doesn't have very offensive moves. Weak smash, recovery move that is quick but doesn't do damage and takes a while to recover from, the only move that Pikachu has going is the down+b move, which a good player can avoid when not recovering and can be pretty ****ing if it misses.

4. C. Falcon - His agility honestly can't make up for poor strength/recovery. His third jump is absolutely useless in most cases, though Falcon Kick is a decent move. Falcon Punch is rarely useful unless the opponent is recovering, in which case a smash is just as effective. Any decent player can take advantage of the move.

5. Fox - He can juggle. But he falls way too fast to keep it up, which hurts him if he messes up for even an instant. His recovery move is not very useful for recovering but is decent in battle. Most of his other stats are downright average, his specialty moves tend to make up for some of these shortcomings though.

6. Jigglypuff - It pains me to put Jigglypuff so high because it's so difficult to be a consistent Jigglypuff player. The truth - Jigglypuff will get rocked by any of the faster characters.

7. Yoshi - Ground pounds are predictable but damaging, and the egg throw is a pain when mastered. Lack of a third jump is what keeps Yoshi so far down.

8. DK - Agghghghg. It also pains me to put DK so high based on brute force alone, because I won't lie, most of DK's stats are absolute crap. A masterful DK player can do well. I'm not even going to write about DK's throw. =P

9. Mario - Probably the easiest character to play with but still a little less than average on a broader scale. Poor recovery move, poor projectiles, tornado is rarely useful, smashes and other attacks ok.

Low

10. Samus - Suffers from many of the same problems as Link, but the down+b can be a great deterrent from up+b moves that are a pain for Samus. Throws are downright terrible. Recovery is also pretty poor.

11. Luigi - A less efficient version of Mario. I had to unlock this guy?!

12. Link - Little can save Link from what seems to be chronic incompetence. Slow, mostly poor attacks and an almost complete inability to throw anyone, ever. Bombs are rarely useful, but like Samus can sometimes be used as a deterrent. Down+a move is the only reason I could ever see anyone playing as Link, one of the better spikes in the game.

 

[ant-d]

In ranked order.

Top:

1. Ness - When mastered, his recovery move can be one of the most effective in the game, he has a great throw rating, decent smashes and speed, projectile attacks, and PK Fire. He's all-powerful. SPIIIIIIIIIKE!

2. Kirby - Kirby below Ness?! I think so. Ness has a distinct advantage over Kirby because of PK Thunder - a projectile move that's easy to control and can negate most of Kirby's offensive moves. His throws help here too. Kirby is top tier because of his recovery move, which is pretty decent, about equivalent to Ness.

Middle:

3. Pikachu - I was tempted to put Pikachu in top tier but decided against it for a few reasons - first, Pikachu just doesn't have very offensive moves. Weak smash, recovery move that is quick but doesn't do damage and takes a while to recover from, the only move that Pikachu has going is the down+b move, which a good player can avoid when not recovering and can be pretty ****ing if it misses.

4. C. Falcon - His agility honestly can't make up for poor strength/recovery. His third jump is absolutely useless in most cases, though Falcon Kick is a decent move. Falcon Punch is rarely useful unless the opponent is recovering, in which case a smash is just as effective. Any decent player can take advantage of the move.

5. Fox - He can juggle. But he falls way too fast to keep it up, which hurts him if he messes up for even an instant. His recovery move is not very useful for recovering but is decent in battle. Most of his other stats are downright average, his specialty moves tend to make up for some of these shortcomings though.

6. Jigglypuff - It pains me to put Jigglypuff so high because it's so difficult to be a consistent Jigglypuff player. The truth - Jigglypuff will get rocked by any of the faster characters.

7. Yoshi - Ground pounds are predictable but damaging, and the egg throw is a pain when mastered. Lack of a third jump is what keeps Yoshi so far down.

8. DK - Agghghghg. It also pains me to put DK so high based on brute force alone, because I won't lie, most of DK's stats are absolute crap. A masterful DK player can do well. I'm not even going to write about DK's throw. =P

9. Mario - Probably the easiest character to play with but still a little less than average on a broader scale. Poor recovery move, poor projectiles, tornado is rarely useful, smashes and other attacks ok.

Low

10. Samus - Suffers from many of the same problems as Link, but the down+b can be a great deterrent from up+b moves that are a pain for Samus. Throws are downright terrible. Recovery is also pretty poor.

11. Luigi - A less efficient version of Mario. I had to unlock this guy?!

12. Link - Little can save Link from what seems to be chronic incompetence. Slow, mostly poor attacks and an almost complete inability to throw anyone, ever. Bombs are rarely useful, but like Samus can sometimes be used as a deterrent. Down+a move is the only reason I could ever see anyone playing as Link, one of the better spikes in the game.

I don't know if this is a joke post or something. But it is the dumbest thing I've ever read on smashboards.

 

[Wonder]

You are losers controlled by a prison you build yourself. There is no strong or weak characters, that's just an excuse for vermillion like you because you are not able to play with them, so, you just say that some characters are better than others. But i'm gonna tell you something; I'm the only living God in this Game and able to beat everybody of you with his own favorite character, without problem and if you want, i will kill you with any other character, even Bowser.

 

[walugi]

I don't know if this is a joke post or something. But it is the dumbest thing I've ever read on smashboards.

and in comes "Wonder" to prove you wrong...

Wonder, you douche. Wrong section and the game is not perfectly balances.

P.S This is a forum, so every post is meant to convey the word of god himself and cannot be argued. Posts are not opinions <---------------------- Sarcasm!

 

[ant-d]

I did some research to come up with factual type tier lists.

Here's the verticle recovery tier list, it's based soley upon human limitation, verticle distance and Up+B negative frames. It shows each character's recovery without jumps. Yoshi and Jiggly are the only exceptions. Remember it isn't showing who is best. It is showing who goes the highest as well as other factors which I have stated above.

TOP

NESS/PIKACHU - 5 stories
LUIGI - 5 stories
MARIO - 4.5 stories

MIDDLE

KIRBY/FOX/JIGGLY (jumps) - 3 stories
YOSHI (jump)- 2.5 stories

BOTTOM

FALCON/LINK - 1.5 stories
DK/SAMUS
1 story = the distance between each set of windows in Saffron City tower (right side)

Notes:-
Luigi and Mario require full B button mashing of Down+B
Pika requires extended recovery and sharp angles
If you disregard UP+B negative frames then Pika's recovery covers the most distance (5.5 stories). Jiggly and Yoshi were added just to show how high they can recover with jump(s).

 

[rokimomi]

Finally a list based on fact. Jiggly has one of the best horizontal, but does anyone know if its better to just keep jumping up, or jump and rising pound and risk losing the lag time?

 

[ant-d]

Jiggly is middle tier using her jumps. Pound has only negative effects on verticle distance.

Luigi is below Pika and Ness because the probability of hitting all the frames of the Down+B is substantially low.

 

[ant-d]

Horizontal Recovery Tier List. This shows each characters horizontal recovery distance in the worst case scenario:- when the character has zero jumps left to recover.

TOP

NESS/PIKACHU

HIGH

LUIGI/DK
MARIO

MIDDLE

FALCON/FOX

LOW

LINK
KIRBY
SAMUS

BOTTOM

JIGGLY
YOSHI

It shows each character's recovery when they have no jumps.
Characters in orange die when they have no jump, they are added just for completeness.
Pika and Ness travel the most distance horizontally and vertically w/ no jumps. Pika pwns.
If Jumps were included then Jiggly and Kirby would be top. Yoshi would be High.

 

[felix45]

lol @ tier lists w/ luigi on the bottom.


not only is luigi's uppercut extremley easy to connect (dair to up b being the easiest) but his tornado is insanley good for keeping your opponent off the ledge, and he combos just as well as mario. the only thing luigi has worse off than mario is fireballs which aren't as spamable, but the uppercut and down b more than make up for that.

I've heard people consider luigi almost broken just because of his uppercut. it's almost as powerfull as jigz rest except you can recover from it much faster (platfoarms)

I'd say if the tier list looked like anything, it'd be this

Top:
Luigi
Kirby

High:
Pikachu
Ness
Captain Falcon

Middle:
fox
jigglypuff
mario
yoshi

Low:
samus
DK
Link


within each catagory placement within is easily debatable, I didn't really take time to seperate them out specificly. if you have any questions as to why what character landed into the general catagory of say, low, I'd be glad to explain.

and arguing combo-ability really isn't going to get you anywhere in SSB (for tier placement that is), every character has some type of 0-death combo up their sleeve if pulled right in the right situation. the only ones that are really situation specific are samus and DK, thus them making low. link gets low just because his recovery is horribly predictable and bad.

 

[rokimomi]

lol @ tier lists w/ luigi on the bottom.


not only is luigi's uppercut extremley easy to connect (dair to up b being the easiest) but his tornado is insanley good for keeping your opponent off the ledge, and he combos just as well as mario. the only thing luigi has worse off than mario is fireballs which aren't as spamable, but the uppercut and down b more than make up for that.

I've heard people consider luigi almost broken just because of his uppercut. it's almost as powerfull as jigz rest except you can recover from it much faster (platfoarms)

I'd say if the tier list looked like anything, it'd be this

Top:
Luigi
Kirby

High:
Pikachu
Ness
Captain Falcon

Middle:
err I have to go to work now I'll be back to edit this in later.

I think that's overdoing it a little with the tier list, but good to see some people on my side.

 

[ZoSo]

I think all the characters have a pretty even chance of beating one another, but for the sake of argument:

Top Tier

Pikachu

Kirby

Ness

High Tier

Falcon

Fox

Mario

Middle Tier

Jigglypuff

Luigi

DK

Low Tier

Yoshi

Link

Bottom Tier (Samus Tier)

Samus

 

[cfalcon]

fox should at least be in the top 4

 

[ZoSo]

fox should at least be in the top 4

I disagree. He's a really solid character, but he gets severely comboed by most of the cast and he doesn't really have the range or priority to maintain a safe approach. Even if he did, all it really takes is one good bump near the edge. A Fox off the stage = a dead Fox.

 

[cfalcon]

fox does have pretty good range f-air and b-air (well kinda)
and fox has teh Shl as an approach, only in this game its like twice as slow (cmopared to falco) and does twice the damage. but he can just laser spam and force the opponent to go offensive/ make mistakes...
also, falcon dies when hes off the stage, except he dies easier and gets comboed (Imo) easier than fox does. fox> falcon (i hate to do this im a falcon player)
and i believe they have the same amount of combo potential.
but your list is good, im not trying to start an argument, just pointing out what i think.

playing fox is just like fox in melee, youre either gonna pwn or get pwned

 

[ZoSo]

fox does have pretty good range f-air and b-air (well kinda)
and fox has teh Shl as an approach, only in this game its like twice as slow (cmopared to falco) and does twice the damage. but he can just laser spam and force the opponent to go offensive/ make mistakes...
also, falcon dies when hes off the stage, except he dies easier and gets comboed (Imo) easier than fox does. fox> falcon (i hate to do this im a falcon player)
and i believe they have the same amount of combo potential.
but your list is good, im not trying to start an argument, just pointing out what i think.

playing fox is just like fox in melee, youre either gonna pwn or get pwned

Yeah, it's pretty hard to dispute the merits of the SHDL. The only really problem with Fox's combos is that they tend to rely heavily on the drill, which can be DI'd. Falcon's tend to be more foolproof. Falcon also has better options for finishers, I think. I will say this much, though: Against a Kirby or a Jigglypuff, I would much rather be Fox.

EDIT: Upon further consideration, I've decided to switch Mario and Fox.

 

[Moocow007]

I disagree. He's a really solid character, but he gets severely comboed by most of the cast and he doesn't really have the range or priority to maintain a safe approach. Even if he did, all it really takes is one good bump near the edge. A Fox off the stage = a dead Fox.

Come up from below the edge and reverse edgeguard DI or whatever it's called now then you don't have so much of a dead Fox. He does have an insane approach too, lasers coupled in with ridiculous range on bair and fair make it easy to connect a first hit and start a combo.

 

[felix45]

I find it humerous that people nitpick about CF and fox when the real issue in most people's lists are luigi's placement. he should be high/top in every one, yet in every one I've seen besides my own he has been mid/low/bottom

 

[walugi]

Maybe he deserves to be low? And you're just wrong? Dunno, just an opinion.

 

[Iggy K]

Since I didn't post reasons

Top
Kirby- Great recovery, good combos, strong smashes, good mindgames, good throws, versatility, light, but that doesn't really matter when you have godly recovering.
Pikachu-Good recovery, combos, smashes, great edgeguarder, throws, fast, light.
Ness-DJC, good throws, powerful attacks, combos, 3rd jump is easily intercepted.
High
Fox-Combos, throws, shine, speed.
C. Falcon/Yoshi (I can't decide who's better, so I'll do yoshi first) Heavy, fast, juggles, combos, best shield in the game, strong attacks, DJC, laggy attacks, slow grabs, no 3rd jump.
Falcon-Fastest character in the game, juggles, strength, laggy attacks, lame 3rd jump.
Jigglypuff-Recovery, combos, great airial fighter, rest, light.
Middle
DK-Heavy, strong attacks, GREAT throws, slow, laggy, bad jumps.
Mario-Medium weight, good combos, pretty much medium in everything else.
Low
Luigi-Good recovery, good airial fights, everything else is just worse than Mario.
Samus-Projectiles, hwavy weight, combos affected by stage choice.
Link-Heavy weight, bad at everything else.

 

[walugi]

Excuse my ignorance, but what is special about Yoshi's shield?

 

[Iggy K]

Unlike other characters, it doesn't shrink. Though I'm still a little uncertain about my list, I'm sort of thinking Jiggs should be higher, but I'm not sure.

 

[walugi]

Oh right, but it breaks more easily doesn't it? and/or gets darker

 

[Iggy K]

Nope, it actually lasts longer, it does get darker though.

 

[2_Percent]

even though link's recovery is terrible, i don't think he's bottom

 

[ant-d]

Dunno where you got that info about Yoshi's shield.

Yoshi's shield is weak in that it takes less hits to break compared to Pika's. Yoshi's and Pika's shield last the same amount of time. This is when you hold the shield and wait for it to break.

So if you compare it, Yoshi's shield is weak.

 

[felix45]

Maybe he deserves to be low? And you're just wrong? Dunno, just an opinion.

um no.

how about go play a good luigi. you will feel the pain of his upb and downb. they are both way better than mario's. he has the same combo ability as mario, minus the fireball spammage, but plus the many more 0-death combos because of his up b.

I'm much more afraid of playing a good luigi in comparison to playing a good mario. I can take fireball spamage no problem. luigi I'm scared of because you know once you are 60-70%+ and he lands a dair you are dead.

 

[ant-d]

luigi I'm scared of because you know once you are 60-70%+ and he lands a dair you are dead.

If you DI behind Luigi then he cannot hit with Up+B after his Down-Air.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2602387597583186620

 

[felix45]

dang didn't know that
edit: is it hard to DI like that in SSB64? because people argue in melee that fox/falco vs jigz the uthrow to rest doesn't work if you DI (and it's true) but it's really hard to do it.

 

[Iggy K]

Dunno where you got that info about Yoshi's shield.

Yoshi's shield is weak in that it takes less hits to break compared to Pika's. Yoshi's and Pika's shield last the same amount of time. This is when you hold the shield and wait for it to break.

So if you compare it, Yoshi's shield is weak.

Really? I guess I must have messed up SSB64 and Melee again.