Tiers? (Include an explaination)

[Mura]

Me thinks DarkJaws doesn't know how to Z-cancel or else he wouldn't be talking about "no lag on dair and sideair attacks...which are lethal."

There shouldn't be any lag with any aerial. >_> We have z-canceling.

 

[Inu_Yasha]

god **** this thread spans nearly 6 years

 

[Surri-Sama]

Pikachu is a little ball of urine in SSB64, he is so cheap its freaking annoying. He could destroy DK with the utmost ease. If you think DK's grabs are good, you should see pikas backthrow...Its evil...

You know you allmost had me untill you called Pikachu cheap, sigh :\

and unforchanitly you cannot use facts to change someones minds on the net, so i guess everything you said about SWF was bogud, Good work on Defending DK in Melee though

 

[whaahppnd]

ok darjaws, first you claim your DK would have beaten isai's pikachu
then you say that you can't play SSB anymore cuz you played Melee so much

make up your mind and take one side!
if you cannot play SSB well, you cannot make the claims you are making (DK u-air sucking etc)
if you CAN still play SSB well, take up Boom or Sensei on their MM

 

[Dream Chaser]

I certainly cant use DKs up air (in 64) as effectively and in as many situations as other characters. Fox's up air, for example.

Some of DKs moves came out much slower in melee than 64 (eg f-air)
And I would say that he had been nerfed if I hadnt seen a Captain Jack pwning a fox on youtube. I am no longer any good at DK (after the transition to melee)

 

[Moneyman228]

You know you allmost had me untill you called Pikachu cheap, sigh :\

and unforchanitly you cannot use facts to change someones minds on the net, so i guess everything you said about SWF was bogud, Good work on Defending DK in Melee though

You can't use facts to change anybodies opinion anywhere, only the truly intellegent will listen to facts.

Pikachu is cheap, you can't deny that. Now that is FACT.

I'd main him if I didn't hate him so much

 

[Surri-Sama]

You can't use facts to change anybodies opinion anywhere, only the truly intellegent will listen to facts.

Pikachu is cheap, you can't deny that. Now that is FACT.

I'd main him if I didn't hate him so much

no you could change my mind if you ACTUALLY had any facts O_o, what makes pikachu cheap, the fact that you cant find a way around him, or the fact that people who play pikachu tend to be at a higher level (goign by tourny winners) of playing due to playign him >_>

 

[Moneyman228]

no you could change my mind if you ACTUALLY had any facts O_o, what makes pikachu cheap, the fact that you cant find a way around him, or the fact that people who play pikachu tend to be at a higher level (goign by tourny winners) of playing due to playign him >_>

I wasn't saying you should listen to me because I gave you facts. I was joking about pika, but if you want some facts about pika, then here they are(thanks to smash wiki).

Facts about Pika:

Pros:

1. Best recovery in game, hands down.
2. Possibly the fastest grab
3. Super High Priority Aerials
4. God-like edgeguarding
5. Powerful Grabs, especially Bthrow
6. Small Size
7. Quick Jumps/Dash
8. Has an infinite edge stall(borrowed from Smask Wiki)
9. Usable projectile
10. His Fsmash is disjointed and hits hard
11. Insane juggling skills

Cons:
Light + Floaty = easy KO(Floaty can be pro sometimes though)
Can be easily comboed...according to smash wiki
He has a vulnerability during his up B move...which isn't really worse than other people's vulnerability

Tactics:

Thunder Spiking:

Up smash someone than use down B, since his thunder has infinite range in SSB64, it should usually connect. According to smash wiki you can get a KO around 40% quicker than with just a U-Smash

This is why pikachu is cheap, here is a shorter version:
- |C|razy combo's
- |H|igh Priority Aerials
- |E|dgeguarding abilities are insane
- |A|busable Grabs
- |P|ure evil recovery + speed

no you could change my mind if you ACTUALLY had any facts O_o, what makes pikachu cheap, the fact that you cant find a way around him, or the fact that people who play pikachu tend to be at a higher level (goign by tourny winners) of playing due to playign him >_>

And what makes you think players are as good as they are just because they play as pikachu? A noob could play as pikachu, does that mean he will become an expert just because he plays pika? Oh, and how do you propose to 'get around him'? Does pikachu have a counter?

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

pikachu isn't cheap

NEWSFLASH: no ones cheap OMGWTF?!??!

 

[True Sonic]

Wow. This thread has turned into a crap storm over the years and it continues to be necromanced. Before posting on this thread look at the date of the original post. Sheesh.

 

[omfgomfg]

true sonic has no clue

 

[Surri-Sama]

pikachu isn't cheap

NEWSFLASH: no ones cheap OMGWTF?!??!

thanks

I wasn't saying you should listen to me because I gave you facts. I was joking about pika, but if you want some facts about pika, then here they are(thanks to smash wiki).

Facts about Pika:

Pros:

1. Best recovery in game, hands down.
2. Possibly the fastest grab
3. Super High Priority Aerials
4. God-like edgeguarding
5. Powerful Grabs, especially Bthrow
6. Small Size
7. Quick Jumps/Dash
8. Has an infinite edge stall(borrowed from Smask Wiki)
9. Usable projectile
10. His Fsmash is disjointed and hits hard
11. Insane juggling skills

Cons:
Light + Floaty = easy KO(Floaty can be pro sometimes though)
Can be easily comboed...according to smash wiki
He has a vulnerability during his up B move...which isn't really worse than other people's vulnerability

Tactics:

Thunder Spiking:

Up smash someone than use down B, since his thunder has infinite range in SSB64, it should usually connect. According to smash wiki you can get a KO around 40% quicker than with just a U-Smash

This is why pikachu is cheap, here is a shorter version:
- |C|razy combo's
- |H|igh Priority Aerials
- |E|dgeguarding abilities are insane
- |A|busable Grabs
- |P|ure evil recovery + speed



And what makes you think players are as good as they are just because they play as pikachu? A noob could play as pikachu, does that mean he will become an expert just because he plays pika? Oh, and how do you propose to 'get around him'? Does pikachu have a counter?

And all of this means nothign because i forgot one thing, you can play as pika too, so how can he be cheap, use the pika young tool :o

 

[Moneyman228]

And all of this means nothign because i forgot one thing, you can play as pika too, so how can he be cheap, use the pika young tool :o

He is cheap in comparison with all the other characters, and what is the Pika young tool? When I say pika is 'cheap', I mean he is 'unbalanced'. He has far to much power with far to little weaknesses.

Oh and just because you can play as him to doesn't mean he isn't cheap.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

I want to post in this thread about this dude has no idea about the meta game of a game, pika is not so cheap that he cannot be beaten, but boom nailed it right on the head, except samus isnt cheap

 

[Moneyman228]

I want to post in this thread about this dude has no idea about the meta game of a game, pika is not so cheap that he cannot be beaten, but boom nailed it right on the head, except samus isnt cheap

I understand perfectly what a metagame is. No character is so cheap that he can't be beaten, but I'm talking about the characters abilities in relation to those of other characters. Any character can be beat with good mind games and such, but its way easier to kill someone as pikachu than most other characters. As I've said before, pikachu is unbalanced, he is far to fast and powerful with few weaknesses.

 

[Wenbobular]

I understand perfectly what a metagame is. No character is so cheap that he can't be beaten, but I'm talking about the characters abilities in relation to those of other characters. Any character can be beat with good mind games and such, but its way easier to kill someone as pikachu than most other characters. As I've said before, pikachu is unbalanced, he is far to fast and powerful with few weaknesses.

I wouldn't say that Pika is that unbalanced.

Next on the list most people place Kirby, who has many of what some people might call "disjointed hitboxes," but I feel it much more appropriate to call them brick filled pillows. Kirby's Utilt is broken enough to space just about anyone, clank just about any move, and combo about half the cast to 60+, and that's just one move.

Ness has fun shield breakers on everyone, which can lead to fun Fair/Nair/Uair/Dair combos on anyone and can lead to a Dair above a whole lot of nothing.

Falcon - Uair is broken *johnsjohns*

Fox - At lower levels of play he can drill-->tilt, at high levels of play he has very good combo ability. Pika falls into a variety of Fox's combos, including being quite susceptible to jab --> Usmash.

I think what you forget in Smash64 is that everyone in the top/high tier has such [i[blatantly good[/i] offensive capabilities that their weaknesses count for almost nil. Let's look at weaknesses, no?

Pika - Light weight
Kirby - Light weight
Ness - Crap recovery
Falcon - Crap recovery
Fox - Crap recovery

The most glaring weaknesses within the generally considered top 5 characters are either weight or having a bad recovery. Neither of these weaknesses affect their offensive capabilities in any way whatsoever (except for Pika going straight to the edges of the map ¬.¬). So if each character was played to almost perfection (perfection would be pretty silly) then matches would be who gets the first hit and starts a long massive combo which leads to death. If you watch Isai play, a lot of his wins are because he's so good at getting that first hit and following up with something epic.

 

[Moneyman228]

I wouldn't say that Pika is that unbalanced.

Next on the list most people place Kirby, who has many of what some people might call "disjointed hitboxes," but I feel it much more appropriate to call them brick filled pillows. Kirby's Utilt is broken enough to space just about anyone, clank just about any move, and combo about half the cast to 60+, and that's just one move.

Ness has fun shield breakers on everyone, which can lead to fun Fair/Nair/Uair/Dair combos on anyone and can lead to a Dair above a whole lot of nothing.

Falcon - Uair is broken *johnsjohns*

Fox - At lower levels of play he can drill-->tilt, at high levels of play he has very good combo ability. Pika falls into a variety of Fox's combos, including being quite susceptible to jab --> Usmash.

I think what you forget in Smash64 is that everyone in the top/high tier has such [i[blatantly good[/i] offensive capabilities that their weaknesses count for almost nil. Let's look at weaknesses, no?

Pika - Light weight
Kirby - Light weight
Ness - Crap recovery
Falcon - Crap recovery
Fox - Crap recovery

The most glaring weaknesses within the generally considered top 5 characters are either weight or having a bad recovery. Neither of these weaknesses affect their offensive capabilities in any way whatsoever (except for Pika going straight to the edges of the map ¬.¬). So if each character was played to almost perfection (perfection would be pretty silly) then matches would be who gets the first hit and starts a long massive combo which leads to death. If you watch Isai play, a lot of his wins are because he's so good at getting that first hit and following up with something epic.

Now that I think about it Pikachu could be taken out with certain characters, I could imagine Ness DJC comboing him into oblivion. Perhaps I overestimated how good pikachu really is, on emularena I used my kirby against him and found him to be alot less annoying then before.

What is the best pika counter?

 

[Wenbobular]

Now that I think about it Pikachu could be taken out with certain characters, I could imagine Ness DJC comboing him into oblivion. Perhaps I overestimated how good pikachu really is, on emularena I used my kirby against him and found him to be alot less annoying then before.

What is the best pika counter?

Fox has Fair --> Usmash at certain percents and Pika makes for a good punching bag. Just don't get grabbed
Falcon is decent on Dreamland, the percents work out so that most of Falcon's throw --> Uair combos wind up nicely for a Dair or Up-b finisher.
Both of these characters have ways of dealing with Pika - Fox can laser spam and Falcon has an excellent dash and grab.
...I actually like playing the Samus in Samus vs Pika.

 

[Winston]

Best pika counter is knowing how to combo him and how to abuse dashdancing/your greater mobility with fox/falcon. He is basically the best character (debatable between him and fox), though, so it's not like these are true "counters".

Kirby's fine too >.>

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

dk on dreamland? LOL??

 

[Moneyman228]

Samus VS Pika? I main Samus but I find it hard to get past pikachu's grabs. Samus also doesn't have very good combo abilities. Most of your game is counterattacking and punishing and then following up with a Dair tech chase or other attacks that keep your opponent within chasing range. Samus's gun is a great finisher that I love to use .

I use kirby against pikachu because of his broken moves(Utilt anyone?).

EDIT: Also forgot to add that Samus grab is situational, thus making it hard to counter pika.

 

[Wenbobular]

Samus's grab makes for hilarious techchasing.
Pika is quite susceptible to the one combo Samus can consistently pull off, Dair --> Bair due to his relative floatiness.
Getting past grabs is an issue you have to deal with whatever character you're using, not just Samus.

 

[7kyro]

I don't care what anyone says.
Link can huck his boomarang and bombs farther in this game then any of the others.

that alone puts him higher then the low category.



...still trying to figure out why they nerfed him in brawl and stuck in toon link as the better man...

 

[Surri-Sama]

I don't care what anyone says.
Link can huck his boomarang and bombs farther in this game then any of the others.

that alone puts him higher then the low category.



...still trying to figure out why they nerfed him in brawl and stuck in toon link as the better man...

this is foolish, they buffed link in melee, look at his UpB for god sakes =.=

And he is definitly low tier because of he is heavy weight (easy to combo) bad recovery (very easy to edge gaurd) and his combos are short and the best ones are situational

 

[Wenbobular]

this is foolish, they buffed link in melee, look at his UpB for god sakes =.=

And he is definitly low tier because of he is heavy weight (easy to combo) bad recovery (very easy to edge gaurd) and his combos are short and the best ones are situational

Whoa whoa whoa, what?
Short and situational combos describe DK and Luigi and...might be too much to say about Samus's combo ability.
Link has very easy Usmash/Utilt juggles (especially against fastfallers and heavyweights, Usmash just chains into itself) and solid finishers in Up-b and Fair. Must better than situational DK combos and Luigi's relative inability to combo from 0 without drills.

 

[7kyro]

this is foolish, they buffed link in melee, look at his UpB for god sakes =.=

And he is definitly low tier because of he is heavy weight (easy to combo) bad recovery (very easy to edge gaurd) and his combos are short and the best ones are situational

So....they stuck in the bow and made his up-B more fun to watch and tether recovery an easy self destruct if you activate it too close to the wall. He's still slower than molasses, throws items half the distance as before, has a harder to time dash attack and up-A.

And on top of that they nerfed his back air - which was the sweetest kick by far.
I hardly see any real reason this pertains to ssb64.


Bottom line: I've killed foxs, pikas, and nesses, yet I still will come back to this character not only because of his superior ranged attacks but also because he adds that extra element in 2v2 -- you just have to know what you are doing...



and thats not even getting into my issue with him in brawl.
Toon Link is junk.

 

[Surri-Sama]

Whoa whoa whoa, what?
Short and situational combos describe DK and Luigi and...might be too much to say about Samus's combo ability.
Link has very easy Usmash/Utilt juggles (especially against fastfallers and heavyweights, Usmash just chains into itself) and solid finishers in Up-b and Fair. Must better than situational DK combos and Luigi's relative inability to combo from 0 without drills.

DK has more combos then you think, and when i say combos, im not talkign about brawl (2-3 hits) i mean real combos 6-8+

So....they stuck in the bow and made his up-B more fun to watch and tether recovery an easy self destruct if you activate it too close to the wall. He's still slower than molasses, throws items half the distance as before, has a harder to time dash attack and up-A.

And on top of that they nerfed his back air - which was the sweetest kick by far.
I hardly see any real reason this pertains to ssb64.


Bottom line: I've killed foxs, pikas, and nesses, yet I still will come back to this character not only because of his superior ranged attacks but also because he adds that extra element in 2v2 -- you just have to know what you are doing...



and thats not even getting into my issue with him in brawl.
Toon Link is junk.

you must only play local people, if you play online play me, ill show you how good link is =.=
even Isai's link has bad recovery, its fact xD

P.S.: Link was a LOT faster in melee then in ssb64 =.=

 

[Wenbobular]

Yes yes, but DK's combos are almost all based on some sort of terrain manipulation, i.e. PLATFORMS and BOXES. Other characters have combos that aren't so reliant (though platforms and the Hyrule box aren't too difficult to find, it's still a constraint). Thus, his combos are more situational than most of the characters that have combos.

 

[7kyro]

DK has more combos then you think, and when i say combos, im not talkign about brawl (2-3 hits) i mean real combos 6-8+



you must only play local people, if you play online play me, ill show you how good link is =.=
even Isai's link has bad recovery, its fact xD

P.S.: Link was a LOT faster in melee then in ssb64 =.=

SSB64 was such along time ago - I'd be surprised if i could even get one kill off of anybody online.

All Im saying is that Link was the coolest... not necessarily the best but definately not that last in the tier, and it would still be true even if you managed to drain all the personal opinion and bias out of the ranks...

 

[Surri-Sama]

Yes yes, but DK's combos are almost all based on some sort of terrain manipulation, i.e. PLATFORMS and BOXES. Other characters have combos that aren't so reliant (though platforms and the Hyrule box aren't too difficult to find, it's still a constraint). Thus, his combos are more situational than most of the characters that have combos.

i was comparing him to link (that being what we talked abotu and all) so i dont see how "Other characters have combos that aren't so reliant" has any matter, Links combos are abotut he same when it comes to situational btu DK has a much better (and abusable) grab, link has his projectiles, and personaly id rather have a 18% killing throw.

Also, how many stages dont have any platforms other then Sector Z, that people actually play on O_o

And for the other "link aint no bottom tier wtf" guy, all you said was "My oppinion would be right about link if there was no bais and no oppinions" and thats just an oximoron =.=..or maybe a simple contridtion, im not sure xD

 

[Wenbobular]

i was comparing him to link (that being what we talked abotu and all) so i dont see how "Other characters have combos that aren't so reliant" has any matter, Links combos are abotut he same when it comes to situational btu DK has a much better (and abusable) grab, link has his projectiles, and personaly id rather have a 18% killing throw.

Also, how many stages dont have any platforms other then Sector Z, that people actually play on O_o

And for the other "link aint no bottom tier wtf" guy, all you said was "My oppinion would be right about link if there was no bais and no oppinions" and thats just an oximoron =.=..or maybe a simple contridtion, im not sure xD

I got carried away and forgot we were just talking about Link
However, Link still beats DK in the combo department because only certain platforms work for DK platform combos (which are the only long combos I've seen for DK not involving a wall), and even then, all DK does is UAir a bunch ¬.¬ Link has much more versatile chaining moves (as in, more than one )
I suppose I can't deny DK's Marthlike grab range, but I wasn't exactly arguing Link's place on the tier list...just his combo ability.

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

dk has easy gimp combos

 

[Vex Kasrani]

I got carried away and forgot we were just talking about Link
However, Link still beats DK in the combo department because only certain platforms work for DK platform combos (which are the only long combos I've seen for DK not involving a wall), and even then, all DK does is UAir a bunch ¬.¬ Link has much more versatile chaining moves (as in, more than one )
I suppose I can't deny DK's Marthlike grab range, but I wasn't exactly arguing Link's place on the tier list...just his combo ability.

actually in ssb64, Dk has the grab trap, which is an infinite, in melee he can combo space animals to death O_o

 

[Mura]

Though DK's grab trap was a fake infinite. >.>. I thought Ant-d said something along the lines of mashing the control stick in a certain way to make it impossible for DK to grab again. >>

 

[Surri-Sama]

Though DK's grab trap was a fake infinite. >.>. I thought Ant-d said something along the lines of mashing the control stick in a certain way to make it impossible for DK to grab again. >>

yes but i dont think thats the point, the thign abotu DK's grab is, its mad!

seriously, it has the BEST range and the most knockback for any throw (backthrow) in the game

and as for links comboign ability if its notthe same as DK's its less, Links chains mostly and allmost entirly = Uairs/Usmash =.=

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

when someone trys to grab infinite me I just go and grab something to eat

 

[Wenbobular]

yes but i dont think thats the point, the thign abotu DK's grab is, its mad!

seriously, it has the BEST range and the most knockback for any throw (backthrow) in the game

and as for links comboign ability if its notthe same as DK's its less, Links chains mostly and allmost entirly = Uairs/Usmash =.=

...So Utilt, Nair, and boomerang don't exist right?
And what great DK combos are we talking about here? 10x Uair platform combos?
I don't count the grab infinite as a combo

 

[Steck]

i see many are putting Mario and Luigi in different tiers! They are basically the same character only Luigi jumps higher and his fireballs move in a line. Since I would think jumping higher is good why do I see Luigi lower? (perhaps this is a n00b question- I have not really played much 64 in years till recently)

EDIT: Holy crap its true. But I can't understand why...

 

[greenblob]

All I know is that Darth Fox's DK anally ***** my Jiggly.

 

[Surri-Sama]

...So Utilt, Nair, and boomerang don't exist right?
And what great DK combos are we talking about here? 10x Uair platform combos?
I don't count the grab infinite as a combo

Alright ill give you that, link has more Options for doign combos, but DK's and Links combos generaly do the same damage and are both relitivly situational, and even if Links combos are a little better DK's grab makes up for it by far