Tiers? (Include an explaination)

[Zantetsu]

W00 I found it! :D

Epic bump because we seriously need to get a GOOD tier list figured out XD

My thoughts are, we get some intelligent smashers to actually debate this in some private chat or something.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

W00 I found it! :D

Epic bump because we seriously need to get a GOOD tier list figured out XD

My thoughts are, we get some intelligent smashers to actually debate this in some private chat or something.

TOP

Pikachu
Fox
Falcon

 

[Zantetsu]

TOP

Pikachu
Fox
Falcon

Thats an easy given. It's the lower tiers we always have trouble with -_-

 

[Surri-Sama]

TOP

Pikachu
Fox
Falcon

Kirby is higher then Fox and Falcon easy

~~~Top~~~
Pikachu
Kirby

**Ness**
~~~High~~~
Fox
Falcon
~~~Mid~~~
Mario
Jiggly

***Yoshi***
~~~Low~~~
DK
Luigi
~~~Bottom~~~
Link
Samus



The astisk's show chars im not sure about due to arguements never ending

 

[Zantetsu]

Kirby is higher then Fox and Falcon easy

Explain... Haven't we all said kirby sux at high level play? XD

 

[killa k]

u tilts...simple as that lmao. then again i kinda disagree w/ kirby bein higher.

 

[Duff0]

u tilts...simple as that lmao. then again i kinda disagree w/ kirby bein higher.

DI is your friend

It's also mine and every other smasher's

 

[Fabrian]

Explain... Haven't we all said kirby sux at high level play? XD

All? I never said that... Kirby does not suck at high level play... but you don't get any games online if you play kirby cuz you get kicked and you get called names so only newbies play him.

All the kirby pros are gone anyways so you won't see good kirbys for a while =/...

oh yeah ^ you can DI out of utilt but it's a b**** to do so if the guy's good... then again DI isn't a counter argument cuz everything is DIable except grabs...

Edit:
Everyone hates playing kirbys for different reasons, ranging from his off stage edge guarding/edge mind games to his down tilts, to his utilt shield break, to his spikes and many other things... The only thing he doesn't have going for him is his throws (except in hyrule) and uair (but i've seen videos of it used effectively in lengthy combos).

 

[Zantetsu]

All? I never said that... Kirby does not suck at high level play... but you don't get any games online if you play kirby cuz you get kicked and you get called names so only newbies play him.

All the kirby pros are gone anyways so you won't see good kirbys for a while =/...

oh yeah ^ you can DI out of utilt but it's a b**** to do so if the guy's good...

Kirby is easy to combo at low % and he doesn't have any projectiles so you can easily camp then spam projectiles at him.

I've played a few people who play a really good kirby but I still don't think he's THAT good to be 2nd best.

 

[Fabrian]

Kirby is easy to combo at low % and he doesn't have any projectiles so you can easily camp then spam projectiles at him.

I've played a few people who play a really good kirby but I still don't think he's THAT good to be 2nd best.

I forgot to mention he easily breaks projectiles his aerials eats through them... this isn't brawl XD
and for foxes laser he has one of the easier times blocking/dodging them... and usually you can end the utilt combo by eating them up >.> thus stealing their projectiles. Really good with link and mario.

I find all characters except samus and yoshi are easy to combo at low percentages >.> and he has a pretty long list of characters which are easier to combo below him so it's not that bad. captain falcon actually has it much worse >.>.. so the lowest i think he would be is third...

 

[Wenbobular]

I forgot to mention he easily breaks projectiles his aerials eats through them... this isn't brawl XD
and for foxes laser he has one of the easier times blocking/dodging them... and usually you can end the utilt combo by eating them up >.> thus stealing their projectiles. Really good with link and mario.

I find all characters except samus and yoshi are easy to combo at low percentages >.> and he has a pretty long list of characters which are easier to combo below him so it's not that bad. captain falcon actually has it much worse >.>.. so the lowest i think he would be is third...

Yoshi? Grab --> Usmash --> Uair with Falcon works for me

 

[Surri-Sama]

Yoshi? Grab --> Usmash --> Uair with Falcon works for me

Again i see people using facts that affect all msot every char, as a reason to demote ONE char.....every char other then Samus can be Combod to hell by CF...its tru!!!

The fact is Kirby has VERY high priorty, very good recovery...and very effective combos....he has no projectiles...but it doesnt really hurt him because like said before his Ftilt is fast and stops allmost all of them....

LAst but not least he has no true counter weight...he can even combo samus

 

[Winston]

Why is ness so high up? I think people are too easily seduced by his comboing ability and forget that all of the other characters have comboing ability that's effectively equal to his. DJC gives him fast attacking ability, obviously, but he's still not that maneuverable overall. He doesn't have a good projectile.

Ness below Fox definitely, and I'd say below Falcon also.

I'd use basically the same argument for Fox above Kirby, also.

 

[CbGreiga]

Ness deserves to be higher up on the list because of three things: Combo ability, Specials, and Throws
His second jump may be the most useful in the game next to Yoshi and gives godly combo ability if timed correctly

Pk Fire may be a bit slow but the pillar effect makes it perfect for smash spamming. Pk Thunder is great for mindgames and his recovery is the second strongest attack in the game.

If placed correctly Ness's throws can kill at nearly 50% plus the fact that most attacks are shield-pushers makes it easier to camp.

I would give him the 2nd spot only because Pikachu utterly destroys him in the air

 

[Exypnos]

taken directly from smashwiki
A tier list is a ranking of each character's metagame, based on tournament settings. It is an indicator of how each character is expected to perform, under tournament settings, in relation to the rest of the cast. Thus, tiers measure the potential of each character based on all currently known techniques and strategies that have been shown to be useful in tournaments. Tier lists are common in fighting games as well as many other competitive games involving a large selection of characters.

The tier list does not say anything about any single matchup. For example, if two players are equally matched in skill, and one uses Fox and the other uses Pichu, the tier list alone can not be used to predict the outcome of the match accurately. This is because the tier list looks at a character's overall potential and effectiveness, and individual matchups can be soft or hard counters that affect but do not entirely determine a character's ranking. For instance, in the aforementioned example, if the Fox vs. Pichu matchup was dramatically tipped in Pichu's favor, but Pichu suffered from poor matchups against every other character in the game, it would mean that Pichu beats Fox, but Pichu is still worse than Fox.

 

[Zantetsu]

The tier list does not say anything about any single matchup.

Wow, then I guess the match up guide dphanna made just matches the tier list by luck huh?

Remember that smashwiki is smashwiki. Things can be edited.

 

[Winston]

Ness deserves to be higher up on the list because of three things: Combo ability, Specials, and Throws
His second jump may be the most useful in the game next to Yoshi and gives godly combo ability if timed correctly

Irrelevant. Pikachu, Kirby, Fox, Falcon, even Mario all have "godly combo ability". At the upper levels of play, if it's ness vs a fox or falcon, whoever gets the first combo-starting hit will likely take a stock. So it comes down to: who's better at getting that first hit? Ness, or fox and falcon?

Pk Fire may be a bit slow but the pillar effect makes it perfect for smash spamming. Pk Thunder is great for mindgames and his recovery is the second strongest attack in the game.

wtf....?

 

[Surri-Sama]

So it comes down to: who's better at getting that first hit? Ness, or fox and falcon?

by simply using your arguement...you lose the arguement...Ness's Priority alone make him better then every characture other then Kirby and Pikachu (and look where he sits on the tier list)

wtf....?

yes wtf?

 

[Zantetsu]

yes, technical skill. You dont need to have much technical skill to do mindgames... And experience has nothing to do with skill

You have no idea what I said, did you. Also, use the quote button so it's easier to know wtf your talking about. C.BJ above got confused cuz u said it out of no where instead of quoting.

 

[NixxxoN]

Fox > Ness.

Falcon = Ness

imo.

Ness aerial moving is ****, dont forget that.

 

[Peek~]

S: Pikachu Kirby Fox
A: C.Falcon Mario Jiggs
B: DK/Yoshi/Ness
C: Samus/Luigi Link

S: Pikachu Kirby Fox C.Falcon

A: Mario Jiggs Yoshi

B: DK Ness Luigi

C: Samus Link

I'm going to post this every chance I get until its accepted.

 

[NixxxoN]

A: Mario Jiggs Yoshi

B: DK Ness Luigi

Well Ness is better than Yoshi for sure

 

[AetherLord]

IMO

-Top-
Pikachu
Kirby
Ness
Fox

-Middle-
C. Falcon
Mario
Luigi
Jigglypuff


-Low/Bottom-
Yoshi
DK
Samus
Link

 

[Winston]

by simply using your arguement...you lose the arguement...Ness's Priority alone make him better then every characture other then Kirby and Pikachu (and look where he sits on the tier list)

Look, it's not like getting the first hit is sitting around throwing attacks at each other. Priority isn't everything, and even though ness' aerial priority is good, he can still be hit. Because fox and falcon run circles around him.

Don't forget, fox has lasers, falcon has dashdance grab, ftilt (which beats aerials), and backair (which has about as much priority as ness does).


Also, general issues:

Good players almost never play kirby, so I don't think it's worth discussing his exact place in top tier, because the tier list is supposed to reflect how good the character is at the top of the human metagame. He's somewhere in top tier, let's just leave it there.

 

[Zantetsu]

S: Pikachu Kirby Fox C.Falcon

A: Mario Jiggs Yoshi

B: DK Ness Luigi

C: Samus Link

I'm going to post this every chance I get until its accepted.

I really agree with this list a lot.

IMO

-Top-
Pikachu
Kirby
Ness
Fox

-Middle-
Mario
Luigi
Jigglypuff
C. Falcon

-Low/Bottom-
Yoshi
DK
Samus
Link

Falcon below luigi, mario, and jigs? You messed up big time there.

 

[ant-d]

 

[swebits98]

I really agree with this list a lot.



Falcon below luigi, mario, and jigs? You messed up big time there.

i dont think u are right. we think that only pikachu and kirby are a bit better than the rest. and link and samus are a bit worst than the rest. but the difference is too small, not worth a topic.
im not picking on u, but u were the last person to post something.
some chars have little advantage against other characters in matchess but it doesnt make them better or worse overall. its easy to know this when u play very good players all the time

 

[Zantetsu]

i dont think u are right. we think that only pikachu and kirby are a bit better than the rest. and link and samus are a bit worst than the rest. but the difference is too small, not worth a topic.
im not picking on u, but u were the last person to post something.
some chars have little advantage against other characters in matchess but it doesnt make them better or worse overall. its easy to know this when u play very good players all the time

It may seem that the tiers are extremely close for you because you don't play a variety of people. If you actually think of the tier list how it is now and put a pika against a link, pika can easily destroy link. Pika can get a quick combo and link is done. Pika is godly at edge guarding and link's recovery is so pathetic.

Since you don't play online, your probably not used to people like grab whores and things like that XP

 

[swebits98]

i think you play many bad people and no top players. if what u say is right, then play isai or maltfox's link against ur pikachu. do ur 'quick combo and link is done'. i think u guys should ignore the bad players strategies, i think u dont play enough good players to know. i think top players will agree with me about what i said before.

 

[Zantetsu]

i think you play many bad people and no top players. if what u say is right, then play isai or maltfox's link against ur pikachu. do ur 'quick combo and link is done'. i think u guys should ignore the bad players strategies, i think u dont play enough good players to know. i think top players will agree with me about what i said before.

Saying I don't play top players is hillarious because I played SuPeRbOoMfAn last night and I used to play with Isai and Johnny until my mupen started screwing up and slowing down.

You obviously didn't understood what I wrote. I never said my pika could take out any link but put it this way.

Isai's pikachu vs someone else's link. Isai's stocks would have way more left over then what it usually does.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

i think you play many bad people and no top players. if what u say is right, then play isai or maltfox's link against ur pikachu. do ur 'quick combo and link is done'. i think u guys should ignore the bad players strategies, i think u dont play enough good players to know. i think top players will agree with me about what i said before.

Unless Isai comes in here and says link beats pika, you sound kinda dumb.
I'm just picking on this post, not you lol.

lol pika is much better then link, and link is far worse then pika. there not barely apart.

EDIT: you never said pika was worse then link, sorry. lol

EDIT EDIT: Don't use Isai as an example, considering he can beat almost anybody with any character.

 

[swebits98]

sorry, but i think u misunderstood me. i didnt say link is better than pikachu. if u read, i said link and samus are a little bit worse off than the rest. but players skill is better than any character list. the difference between characters by themselves is too small.

u probably play on internet which is slower than normal, even with p2p smash there are delays.

Isai's pikachu vs someone else's link. Isai's stocks would have way more left over then what it usually does.

now i see u dont use logic, sorry i cant discuss with u.

Vex: if pikachu is MUCH better than link then you can beat top japanese players link with pikachu then? im not using isai in this example. it only matters about player skill, but as i mentioned the character difference is small. im not talking about average players, im talking about the top players. sorry if u r not that.

and i read the post where isai says superboom is not in the league of top japanese players. because someone said superboom is top 5. isai said no, not from what he has seen.

 

[Zantetsu]

sorry, but i think u misunderstood me. i didnt say link is better than pikachu. if u read, i said link and samus are a little bit worse off than the rest. but players skill is better than any character list. the difference between characters by themselves is too small.

u probably play on internet which is slower than normal, even with p2p smash there are delays.

I do play online but only p2p w/ mupen which is almost always 2-3 frames of delay and that's about it. And idk what you mean by "slower" because I get a full 60FPS

now i see u dont use logic, sorry i cant discuss with u.

I really don't understand how you were saying "Ok put maltfox against you and see who wins" which it's obvious maltfox is better but when I say "Isai vs anyone" you say I don't use logic?

You did the exact same thing and it looks like your avoiding what I tried to tell you. All I'm trying to say is that the gap between pika and link is big enough for link to have almost a 0% chance of winning a tournament of equally skilled players with a pika or kirby involved.

and i read the post where isai says superboom is not in the league of top japanese players. because someone said superboom is top 5. isai said no, not from what he has seen.

Boom is most likely better then maltfox so if you use malt as an example, then I should be able to use boom as an example.

 

[Zephramrill]

Original Smash Bros was really balanced which was nice. Pika Kirby Yoshi stand out for me personally

 

[Vex Kasrani]

sorry, but i think u misunderstood me. i didnt say link is better than pikachu. if u read, i said link and samus are a little bit worse off than the rest. but players skill is better than any character list. the difference between characters by themselves is too small.

u probably play on internet which is slower than normal, even with p2p smash there are delays.



now i see u dont use logic, sorry i cant discuss with u.

Vex: if pikachu is MUCH better than link then you can beat top japanese players link with pikachu then? im not using isai in this example. it only matters about player skill, but as i mentioned the character difference is small. im not talking about average players, im talking about the top players. sorry if u r not that.

and i read the post where isai says superboom is not in the league of top japanese players. because someone said superboom is top 5. isai said no, not from what he has seen.

theres differences between american and Japanese Smash, and your an idiot from what you've said. The game may be more balanced then melee or brawl, but a top link will never stand a chance against a top pikachu. I really don't like arguing, its plain and simple.

Also I don't use Pikachu I use fox, and I can probably do really well against top Links or not. Link cant do anything while being shield pressured and hes gimped so badly its not even funny.

 

[swebits98]

sorry, u misuderstood again.

and i can see more that its pointless discussing with you because you said 'equally skilled players' and then 0% chance of one of them winning. u dont use logic, im not being rude, so sorry if it seems like it. if someone is equally skilled then any character they use will have 50% chance of winning against another 50% equally skilled player, since u said equally skilled. also 'equally skilled' doesnt exist how u can use it? lol what metric do u use to determine equal skill? im sure u cant

its impossible to have a proper discussion with this logic so i guess ill leave u less informed people to discuss against urselves

 

[Vex Kasrani]

sorry, u misuderstood again.

and i can see more that its pointless discussing with you because you said 'equally skilled players' and then 0% chance of one of them winning. u dont use logic, im not being rude, so sorry if it seems like it. if someone is equally skilled then any character they use will have 50% chance of winning against another 50% equally skilled player, since u said equally skilled.
its impossible to have a proper discussion with this logic

No, an equally skilled Pika vs a equally skilled Link means Pika has large chance of winning.
The character's ability is to large a gap for the link to win.

 

[Zantetsu]

sorry, u misuderstood again.

and i can see more that its pointless discussing with you because you said 'equally skilled players' and then 0% chance of one of them winning. u dont use logic, im not being rude, so sorry if it seems like it. if someone is equally skilled then any character they use will have 50% chance of winning against another 50% equally skilled player, since u said equally skilled. also 'equally skilled' doesnt exist how u can use it? lol

its impossible to have a proper discussion with this logic

So your saying if I cloned myself, played myself pika vs link, then the chance would be 50/50?

Just confirming what you said because i'm lmfao at the moment and I'm hoping that's not what you meant XD

Also, quit trying to avoid our points by "You guys don't use logic"

 

[killa k]

pointless arguement :D


/10charz <----idk wut da *** that means lmao (facepalm)

 

[tigerbombzz]

sorry, but i think u misunderstood me. i didnt say link is better than pikachu. if u read, i said link and samus are a little bit worse off than the rest. but players skill is better than any character list. the difference between characters by themselves is too small.

u probably play on internet which is slower than normal, even with p2p smash there are delays.



now i see u dont use logic, sorry i cant discuss with u.

Vex: if pikachu is MUCH better than link then you can beat top japanese players link with pikachu then? im not using isai in this example. it only matters about player skill, but as i mentioned the character difference is small. im not talking about average players, im talking about the top players. sorry if u r not that.

and i read the post where isai says superboom is not in the league of top japanese players. because someone said superboom is top 5. isai said no, not from what he has seen.

1st of all...you are a fuking turd...GG K THX BAI

2ND...ive seen ur videos and i probably just got worst by watching them...pawned!

3rd of all...stop riding isais and malfoxs cok all day...unless you want some **** in ur mouth like a lil fuking r tard.

seriously though...a brand new NUB pikachu is > then a brand new NUB link! I will pawn you, malNUBfox, any of u fukers anyday. YES pikachu is auto hax broken! Yes skillz do take role on how you can play and manage a character but wen you play me you better PICK JESUS sons as a fuking secret character if you want to beat me sons cuz i will SERVE YOU UP LIKE OMARION! gg k thx bai...sniff! worth it im tooo hax l33tsauce!