Tier List Speculation

[Player -0]

The problem lies more within his mobility than his throws.

Throw fix would change it so he has setups out of neutral (besides dash attack I guess). D Throw is questionably good.

Minor mobility stuff imo. Idk though.

 

[The_NZA]

The way ledge jumps work in PM also gave some characters much better options from the ledge, especially when platforms are involved. Wavelanding on platforms after ledgejumping is basically what Fox has already been able to do in Melee on stages like Yoshi's Story.

Sometimes I feel like you can double jump and attack a bit too early out of the ledgejump, though.

For the love of god let's not change this. This is the only thing giving Ness a remotely good ledge game....which he desperately needs.

 

[Kneato]

So you mathematically proved bowser sucks? I hate this game sometimes for how bad my main is apparently.

What would make him mathematically more successful?

A positive matchup

 

[JOE!]

So you mathematically proved bowser sucks? I hate this game sometimes for how bad my main is apparently.

What would make him mathematically more successful?

I'd give him the ability to just murder shields entirely with Bowser Bomb at least. Give him some BiS stuff like a chargeable Fsmash punch. Also, a fireball that moves really slow kinda like Aura Bomb from lucario instead of firebreath.

 

[AceGamer]

So you mathematically proved bowser sucks? I hate this game sometimes for how bad my main is apparently.

What would make him mathematically more successful?

Give him an anti air version of KK where grabs upwards at a 45 degree angle, kinda like Potemkins Heat Knuckle. It would still just lead into one of his 3 KK throws of course and come out frame 13 like normal but it would be a nice little buff to his defense. Naturally he wouldn't reach as far as this pic might suggest with his short arms lol

 

[Keman]

I know I am not the most knowledgeable(I am quite the Stream monster though >.>), but I was making a tier list just to get myself thinking about it and I came across something I wanted to ask here. Mainly about the format of it and comparison of the 2.

I started out and made this with the characters on the left generally being better. (little to no difference between Luigi and Wario, but Luigi being considered a bit better then Squirtle with not a lot of difference in the bottom of one tier to the top of the next)

In my head that is the better way, just because of how close all the characters really seem to be to me. Then I split it up into more tiers which looks like a more traditional list. Same Character placements, same left to right format, just split up more.

Even though is the exact same list per say, it can be perceived in a different manner. I guess I was wondering which format seems to display the state of the game better to you all?

If you want feel free to proclaim how this is the greatest list ever made, but that's not really the point here (I know we were all thinking how good it is though)

 

[mimgrim]

The problem lies more within his mobility than his throws.

I feel that Kirby mains have a tendency to underrate Kirby's mobility somewhat.

As Kirby actually has some good ground mobility going for him with a fast DD that can cover a good distance (think like Ike DD fast but trades a little bit of the speed for a little bit more distance from it, is pretty good imo) along with a good Wavedash and fast jumpsquat to WD easy. And on some stage he can full jump onto a platform and instant land kind of which allows for easy wavelands.

Obviously we aren't talking MK fast on the ground but Kirby can get pretty mobile (on the ground) when he wants to be.

Air is a bit of a different story, though multiple jumps and being to position himself decently from the ground to air makes up for it ever so slightly. Wouldn't mind seeing an increase of air mobility for him.

Also make Cutter Dash Air Dodge cancelable. :L

I know I am not the most knowledgeable(I am quite the Stream monster though >.>), but I was making a tier list just to get myself thinking about it and I came across something I wanted to ask here. Mainly about the format of it and comparison of the 2.

I started out and made this with the characters on the left generally being better. (little to no difference between Luigi and Wario, but Luigi being considered a bit better then Squirtle with not a lot of difference in the bottom of one tier to the top of the next)

In my head that is the better way, just because of how close all the characters really seem to be to me. Then I split it up into more tiers which looks like a more traditional list. Same Character placements, same left to right format, just split up more.

Even though is the exact same list per say, it can be perceived in a different manner. I guess I was wondering which format seems to display the state of the game better to you all?

If you want feel free to proclaim how this is the greatest list ever made, but that's not really the point here (I know we were all thinking how good it is though)

No way in hell is GnW the best character in the game.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

I refuse to believe bowser is that bad, given how many tools he's been given. I'd rather remain patient and see how he develops in the meta then jumping the gun with his placement. If he still ends up being bad, and you want to make bowser better, make the more ridiculous characters worse. If you don't, bowser will have to continue to get more and more ridiculous to compete.

 

[Narelex]

I know I am not the most knowledgeable(I am quite the Stream monster though >.>), but I was making a tier list just to get myself thinking about it and I came across something I wanted to ask here. Mainly about the format of it and comparison of the 2.

I started out and made this with the characters on the left generally being better. (little to no difference between Luigi and Wario, but Luigi being considered a bit better then Squirtle with not a lot of difference in the bottom of one tier to the top of the next)

In my head that is the better way, just because of how close all the characters really seem to be to me. Then I split it up into more tiers which looks like a more traditional list. Same Character placements, same left to right format, just split up more.

Even though is the exact same list per say, it can be perceived in a different manner. I guess I was wondering which format seems to display the state of the game better to you all?

If you want feel free to proclaim how this is the greatest list ever made, but that's not really the point here (I know we were all thinking how good it is though)

I feel like the more divided up it is, the easier it is to digest but the 3-4 divisions is probably accurate. This list has a lot wrong IMO

Sonic is far too low, Where's Star when you need him?

Steelguttey has said over and over again Olimar is mid tier and I think his onstage game is enough to warrant that.

Roy is too low, he is still extremely good.

Mewtwo is too low, have you seen Frozen? This character has a lot of tools and is quite adaptable.

GnW is not the best character in the game.

I refuse to believe bowser is that bad, given how many tools he's been given. I'd rather remain patient and see how he develops in the meta then jumping the gun with his placement. If he still ends up being bad, and you want to make bowser better, make the more ridiculous characters worse. If you don't, bowser will have to continue to get more and more ridiculous to compete.

I honestly think its more to do with how the character interacts in neutral and lets be honest Bowser has a great punish and edgeguard game but he has a difficult time getting to use it especially against the quicker characters or ones with dominating grab games.

Basically his neutral game is pretty terrible and since that's the cornerstone to winning matches at the highest level, he tends to get shafted. None of his new tools helped his neutral game. So we can give him as many tools as we want to improve his punish game but he won't become a better character until we can somehow help his neutral.

Balancing polarizing big characters is a daunting task overall.

 

[Keman]

No way in hell is GnW the best character in the game.

I didn't mean it like that persay the top4-5 are all interchangeable as most character who are close together are, it's not numbered 1-41. Im sure there are problems with the list.

 

[CORY]

am i the only person who thinks s tier shouldn't be large? like, 2, maybe 3 characters, tops? s tier feels like it should be "these characters don't have any real bad matchups, they could probably take some nerfs and still be totally fine because their strengths are so much better than their weaknesses" as opposed to top tier "these guys are really good, but they have a defined weakness that can just be worked around to a degree, but not really negated"? or is that basically the same thing in y'all's eyes? someone said something similar before (i forget who it was, just a page or two back) in regards to matchups; felt like his s tier was still too filled, but i agreed with the rationale.

I honestly think its more to do with how the character interacts in neutral and lets be honest Bowser has a great punish and edgeguard game but he has a difficult time getting to use it especially against the quicker characters or ones with dominating grab games.

Basically his neutral game is pretty terrible and since that's the cornerstone to winning matches at the highest level, he tends to get shafted none of his new tools helped his neutral game. So we can give him as many tools as we want to improve his punish game but he won't become a better character until we can somehow help his neutral.

Balancing polarizing big characters is a daunting task overall.

i still say that the problem lies more with the fast mobile characters getting too much out of neutral conversions. if you win neutral in a matchup 70% of the time and get 40% and stage positioning, that's still far better than getting 60% and stage positioning 30% of the time (as a really bad lopsided example). either the characters who have good mobility (and thus, good neutrals generally by extension) need to have conversions weakened, or the low mobility characters who tend to lose neutral need to have even stronger conversions (which seems even more polarizing, because then you literally get touch of death bowser and ganon, regardless of di decisions...).

but then you get people who're used to "fast and mobile and gets good conversions out of neutral" as the norm getting upset because suddenly the game doesn't feel fun because they're used to having all those positive traits, and there legit is something to be said about the fanbase's expectations.

 

[.alizarin]

is there a way to design fatties/slow characters in pm so stuff like this doesn't happen or like, happens less

i know it's not smash, this is just the first example that came to my mind

 

[Binary Clone]

i still say that the problem lies more with the fast mobile characters getting too much out of neutral conversions. if you win neutral in a matchup 70% of the time and get 40% and stage positioning, that's still far better than getting 60% and stage positioning 30% of the time (as a really bad lopsided example). either the characters who have good mobility (and thus, good neutrals generally by extension) need to have conversions weakened, or the low mobility characters who tend to lose neutral need to have even stronger conversions (which seems even more polarizing, because then you literally get touch of death bowser and ganon, regardless of di decisions...).

but then you get people who're used to "fast and mobile and gets good conversions out of neutral" as the norm getting upset because suddenly the game doesn't feel fun because they're used to having all those positive traits, and there legit is something to be said about the fanbase's expectations.

The problem is compounded by the fact that fast and mobile gets a lot out of neutral conversions by definition. Being fast and mobile means you can chase down your opponent as they're flying through the air in hitstun, and you can hit them again. Being slow means that's much more difficult, and means that you more frequently need to rely on things like juggles, where you don't tend to need to chase as hard or far in general. When you're fast and mobile, juggles and horizontal chases are just as easy, and allow for a wider range of opportunities for combo starters and continuances.

 

[Keman]

am i the only person who thinks s tier shouldn't be large? like, 2, maybe 3 characters, tops?

If you do that aren't you saying these are the top 2-3 characters in the game and they are clearly better then everyone else. Maybe Diddy, Fox, Falcon, or whoever really is that much better, but I don't see them being good enough to deserve that pedestal over the rest of the cast.

 

[mimgrim]

I didn't mean it like that persay the top4-5 are all interchangeable as most character who are close together are, it's not numbered 1-41. Im sure there are problems with the list.

No way in hell is GnW a top 5 character.

 

[Kneato]

I refuse to believe bowser is that bad, given how many tools he's been given. I'd rather remain patient and see how he develops in the meta then jumping the gun with his placement. If he still ends up being bad, and you want to make bowser better, make the more ridiculous characters worse. If you don't, bowser will have to continue to get more and more ridiculous to compete.

Based off of his pre-3.6 moveset, the consensus seemed to be that he had no positive or even matchups.

His 3.6 changes may well have changed that though.

 

[Kneato]

am i the only person who thinks s tier shouldn't be large? like, 2, maybe 3 characters, tops? s tier feels like it should be "these characters don't have any real bad matchups, they could probably take some nerfs and still be totally fine because their strengths are so much better than their weaknesses" as opposed to top tier "these guys are really good, but they have a defined weakness that can just be worked around to a degree, but not really negated"? or is that basically the same thing in y'all's eyes? someone said something similar before (i forget who it was, just a page or two back) in regards to matchups; felt like his s tier was still too filled, but i agreed with the rationale.

i still say that the problem lies more with the fast mobile characters getting too much out of neutral conversions. if you win neutral in a matchup 70% of the time and get 40% and stage positioning, that's still far better than getting 60% and stage positioning 30% of the time (as a really bad lopsided example). either the characters who have good mobility (and thus, good neutrals generally by extension) need to have conversions weakened, or the low mobility characters who tend to lose neutral need to have even stronger conversions (which seems even more polarizing, because then you literally get touch of death bowser and ganon, regardless of di decisions...).

but then you get people who're used to "fast and mobile and gets good conversions out of neutral" as the norm getting upset because suddenly the game doesn't feel fun because they're used to having all those positive traits, and there legit is something to be said about the fanbase's expectations.

I think this ties into what DrinkingFood has been advocating.

Both of the options you mentioned, making fast characters get worse conversions, or making slow characters get stronger conversions, both seem less than ideal.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but DrinkingFood has been suggesting that characters with less mobility have their base stats increased to aid their mobility. Now obviously, we don't want Bowsers blasting across FD at Fox speeds, but some minor adjustments could probably help these characters in a major way that won't completely polarize certain matchups.

 

[Life]

Bowser has this issue where your opponent picks Ice Climbers and proceeds to chaingrab you for like 80% plus an edgeguard if you're lucky, whilst also being the character in the game least able to avoid getting grabbed outside maybe Ganondorf. And that's one of several really bad matchups he has, most of whom are much more common than Climbers (stuff like Diddy Kong and Toon Link and Sheik).

Klaw dthrow is cool but does little to fix this.

That said, in matchups that don't hard counter him with severe zoning and/or grab games, he's quite playable. I can't name a character he beats, though. I could see Ganondorf?

To throw an idea out there, one thing that could help would be to allow Bowser to charge forward with Klaw, which would give him a burst approach option and a more threatening recovery. I'm imagining an animation where holding down the B button causes him to dive forward partway through the startup; releasing the button stops his momentum and finishes the animation. If this makes it too strong, maybe make the hitbox smaller or something?

The other alternative would be to nerf every chainthrow that works on him in the game; that might throw other stuff out of whack tho.

 

[CORY]

If you do that aren't you saying these are the top 2-3 characters in the game and they are clearly better then everyone else. Maybe Diddy, Fox, Falcon, or whoever really is that much better, but I don't see them being good enough to deserve that pedestal over the rest of the cast.

yes, that's what i'm saying.

why say s tier rather than a? a is top. they would have clear strengths and weaknesses, but their strengths are what's most useful to the meta and they tend to have fewer poor matchups as a result, but would still potentially have them.

getting into s-tier would mean they're better than that. brawl mk was s-tier. he was so much better than anyone else in that game and didn't have losing matchups (afaik). he didn't necessarily have 70-30's his favor all the way across, but he had no clear cut losing matchup himself, a step above everyone else.

if you have 6 or so characters in s-tier, it seems that the definition of s-tier is lower than it should be or there's a huge problem with an entire tier not having bad matchups at all.

 

[Narelex]

Bowser has this issue where your opponent picks Ice Climbers and proceeds to chaingrab you for like 80% plus an edgeguard if you're lucky, whilst also being the character in the game least able to avoid getting grabbed outside maybe Ganondorf. And that's one of several really bad matchups he has, most of whom are much more common than Climbers (stuff like Diddy Kong and Toon Link and Sheik).

Klaw dthrow is cool but does little to fix this.

That said, in matchups that don't hard counter him with severe zoning and/or grab games, he's quite playable. I can't name a character he beats, though. I could see Ganondorf?

To throw an idea out there, one thing that could help would be to allow Bowser to charge forward with Klaw, which would give him a burst approach option and a more threatening recovery. I'm imagining an animation where holding down the B button causes him to dive forward partway through the startup; releasing the button stops his momentum and finishes the animation. If this makes it too strong, maybe make the hitbox smaller or something?

The other alternative would be to nerf every chainthrow that works on him in the game; that might throw other stuff out of whack tho.

Ganon actually beats him from what Odds told me. Can't recall exactly why.

I think Roy is the highest placed character he does the best vs IIRC.

yes, that's what i'm saying.

why say s tier rather than a? a is top. they would have clear strengths and weaknesses, but their strengths are what's most useful to the meta and they tend to have fewer poor matchups as a result, but would still potentially have them.

getting into s-tier would mean they're better than that. brawl mk was s-tier. he was so much better than anyone else in that game and didn't have losing matchups (afaik). he didn't necessarily have 70-30's his favor all the way across, but he had no clear cut losing matchup himself, a step above everyone else.

if you have 6 or so characters in s-tier, it seems that the definition of s-tier is lower than it should be or there's a huge problem with an entire tier not having bad matchups at all.

By that definition Fox is the only S tier we have atm. Does he even have any MU worse then even?

 

[Keman]

Stuff

Ah ok so you are taking it in the literal sense. It was just what was on top and I always thought of the tiers always as tier 1, 2, 3, so on. Does the PM meta even have an S tier atm. In my eyes it doesn't but do people feel like there are characters atm that are really that much better? Would Fox having a matchup like D3 take him out of that classification?

 

[Kneato]

yes, that's what i'm saying.

why say s tier rather than a? a is top. they would have clear strengths and weaknesses, but their strengths are what's most useful to the meta and they tend to have fewer poor matchups as a result, but would still potentially have them.

getting into s-tier would mean they're better than that. brawl mk was s-tier. he was so much better than anyone else in that game and didn't have losing matchups (afaik). he didn't necessarily have 70-30's his favor all the way across, but he had no clear cut losing matchup himself, a step above everyone else.

if you have 6 or so characters in s-tier, it seems that the definition of s-tier is lower than it should be or there's a huge problem with an entire tier not having bad matchups at all.

For the record, in this:

There are 5 characters in S tier according to the matchup chart. Their matchups are as follows:

Fox:
Negative - 0
Neutral - 7
Positive - 32
Unknown - 1

MK:
Negative - 3
Neutral - 9
Positive - 28
Unknown - 0

Falco:
Negative - 3
Neutral - 8
Positive - 28
Unknown - 1

Wolf:
Negative - 3
Neutral - 15
Positive - 17
Unknown - 5

Marth:
Negative - 4
Neutral - 12
Positive - 24
Unknown - 0

People keep bringing it up so let me preface this again by saying that THIS DATA IS NOT 100% ACCURATE but it's the best picture we have right now. Given that, any character only losing 4 matchups in a cast of 41 characters is cause for concern. The next best character down is -

Sheik :
Negative - 7
Neutral - 16
Positive - 13
Unknown - 4

whose matchup spread starts looking much more reasonable.

What I'm saying is, this S tier isn't on the same level as the Melee or Brawl S tier, but it is still something that warrants a change.

 

[CORY]

Ah ok so you are taking it in the literal sense. It was just what was on top and I always thought of the tiers always as tier 1, 2, 3, so on. Does the PM meta even have an S tier atm. In my eyes it doesn't but do people feel like there are characters atm that are really that much better? Would Fox having a matchup like D3 take him out of that classification?

it might and if so, it would likely be fox. his matchup against ddd was in 3.5 and i don't think it was even a real losing matchup? (@ Ripple ?) even now, he probably doesn't have any outright losing matchups, but things are seeming to even out as the game progresses.

i'm thinking more in terms of "you don't have losing matchups" as in starting to hit the 60-40 ratio (so, they'd lose a bo5, but would feasibly get 2 games off the set. bo3 isn't unlikely to go to g3, but would still lose). hitting 70-30 is into counter character territory, because you'll maybe win 1 game in the bo5, so you shouldn't even take a game in bo3.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

it might and if so, it would likely be fox. his matchup against ddd was in 3.5 and i don't think it was even a real losing matchup? (@ Ripple ?) even now, he probably doesn't have any outright losing matchups, but things are seeming to even out as the game progresses.

i'm thinking more in terms of "you don't have losing matchups" as in starting to hit the 60-40 ratio (so, they'd lose a bo5, but would feasibly get 2 games off the set. bo3 isn't unlikely to go to g3, but would still lose). hitting 70-30 is into counter character territory, because you'll maybe win 1 game in the bo5, so you shouldn't even take a game in bo3.

Fortunately for us, our S tier isn't so distant that they're "Gods" of the cast.

 

[Keman]

By that definition Fox is the only S tier we have atm. Does he even have any MU worse then even?

What about D3, I thought Ripple was a spacie Killer? I don't have a clue about those matchups all I can go off of is what I have seen.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

The thing that baffles me is wario's placement on that list, he should be higher imo. Also why is link so high? I get that this list isn't the most accurate thing out there, but most of that list is at least understandable. The placement of those two, I find questionable, and would like to hear the reasoning for it.

 

[Narelex]

What about D3, I thought Ripple was a spacie Killer? I don't have a clue about those matchups all I can go off of is what I have seen.

He has poor OOS options outside of grab, and a pretty small shield for his size. So spacie shield pressure is very difficult for him to deal with.

Sure he punishes mistakes hard but its a giant uphill battle for D3.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

For the record, in this:

There are 5 characters in S tier according to the matchup chart. Their matchups are as follows:

Fox:
Negative - 0
Neutral - 7
Positive - 32
Unknown - 1

MK:
Negative - 3
Neutral - 9
Positive - 28
Unknown - 0

Falco:
Negative - 3
Neutral - 8
Positive - 28
Unknown - 1

Wolf:
Negative - 3
Neutral - 15
Positive - 17
Unknown - 5

Marth:
Negative - 4
Neutral - 12
Positive - 24
Unknown - 0

People keep bringing it up so let me preface this again by saying that THIS DATA IS NOT 100% ACCURATE but it's the best picture we have right now. Given that, any character only losing 4 matchups in a cast of 41 characters is cause for concern. The next best character down is -

Sheik :
Negative - 7
Neutral - 16
Positive - 13
Unknown - 4

who's matchup spread starts looking much more reasonable.

What I'm saying is, this S tier isn't on the same level as the Melee or Brawl S tier, but it is still something that warrants a change.

Can you say what bowsers match up lists are?

Anyways, I dont know how people would feel about any move that outright breaks a shield (no matter how slow or committable/punishable it is) but i think it would not help a lot. (a simple side step or movement option would negate it all day)

An anti air grab once again doesnt really fix things....

How about instead of giving bowser weird new tools that dont really fix the issue, lets give him a second move set for specials.

fire balls for fire breath or some kind of villager pocket (where he eat thes the projectile and spits it out, faster, stronger, whatever)
His Klaw will have a burst movement forward.
His up b will slide further or higher (something to change it up at least)
and a faster less damaging, less punishable bomb that IS affected by gravity and push back

And for the love of god, give bowser a decent grab range in comparison to his body

I mean look at his customs for smash 4, they are way more helpful than his original move set

 

[Kneato]

The thing that baffles me is wario's placement on that list, he should be higher imo. Also why is link so high? I get that this list isn't the most accurate thing out there, but most of that list is at least understandable. The placement of those two, I find questionable, and would like to hear the reasoning for it.

There's no reasoning. Its strictly based on a formula that calculates a score based on matchups.

Link got a high score because he has an average matchup of .08 on a scale of -3 to 3 (slightly above average), and he has 4 more positive matchups than he has negative.

Link:
Negative - 10
Neutral - 12
Positive - 14
Unknown - 4

Wario has an average matchup of -.29 and 7 more negative matchups than positive. This gives him a relatively low score.

Wario:
Negative - 20
Neutral - 6
Positive - 13
Unknown - 0

All these matchups are discussion from matchup threads in the respective player boards along with some top player opinion.

EDIT Matchup spreads added for those interested

 

[FreeGamer]

@Player -0
F-Throw buff would be nice, but not a real solution. Does nerfing Fox's kill power fix his issues?

 

[JesteRace]

I really feel uneasy at the idea of anything brought back from 3.02, or revisions from previous builds, as they generally didn't target the right areas imo. Rang's start up speed was nerfed to decentralize it's reliance in the neutral, which was compensated with better movement speed. Thus, he ends up having a more well rounded interaction with his opponent, which I think is fair. I think it would be more important to adjust the release points of his boomerang, lowering it, so he can have better angles and deal with smaller opponents. Usmash and grab need to work, that's all that needs to be said, bombs could stand an adjustment, and there isn't a reasonable argument to not give link his melee nair (with a adjustment to the animation of course) besides, "I don't want link to be good". There are a couple other changes you could give him, like a one frame faster jab, 1% more on ftilt, and 2% more on the final hit of aerial up b. If you added those changes, link would be insta viable, and honestly they're fairly conservative.

Although 3.02 as a whole was... just... terrible, not everything from 3.02 was bad and stupid and "degenerate". I, personally, don't think there was anything wrong with his bombs and don't see why they needed to be nerfed. I also understand that the rang was nerfed so as to decentralize his neutral game, I just think 3.5 accomplished that already and it didn't need to be nerfed again in 3.6. He's supposed to have a good boomerang. And if bombs are buffed back to 3.02 status, that too incentivizes the use of bombs instead of rang in certain situation. However, like I said, I'm actually totally fine with rang as it is if bombs are compensated for it, because holy crap, maybe Link should have a better projectile game than his small and speedy counterpart. The rest of the changes I agree with. And me wanting 3.02 dash attack back is just me wanting me more ammo for fast fallers, it's probably fine as is too.

 

[Ripple]

In 3.5 I would have said it's +1 for D3 but in 3.6 I'm leaning more toward even. I may have beat lucky but the games were close and he threw game 3 away going falcon

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

In 3.5 I would have said it's +1 for D3 but in 3.6 I'm leaning more toward even. I may have beat lucky but the games were close and he threw game 3 away going falcon

Do you have any opinion on D3-Ike in 3.6? I find that I hate fighting him a little less.

 

[Ripple]

D3 wins +1 still.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

But I have weapon triangle advantage D:

 

[TheoryofSmaug]

Bowser has this issue where your opponent picks Ice Climbers and proceeds to chaingrab you for like 80% plus an edgeguard if you're lucky, whilst also being the character in the game least able to avoid getting grabbed outside maybe Ganondorf. And that's one of several really bad matchups he has, most of whom are much more common than Climbers (stuff like Diddy Kong and Toon Link and Sheik).

Klaw dthrow is cool but does little to fix this.

That said, in matchups that don't hard counter him with severe zoning and/or grab games, he's quite playable. I can't name a character he beats, though. I could see Ganondorf?

To throw an idea out there, one thing that could help would be to allow Bowser to charge forward with Klaw, which would give him a burst approach option and a more threatening recovery. I'm imagining an animation where holding down the B button causes him to dive forward partway through the startup; releasing the button stops his momentum and finishes the animation. If this makes it too strong, maybe make the hitbox smaller or something?

The other alternative would be to nerf every chainthrow that works on him in the game; that might throw other stuff out of whack tho.

Gannon destroyed Bowser in 3.5, it is a little better now with the Frame 8 Dsmash and general speed buffs, the techroll buffs especially help in this matchup. But it's still awful, Gannon has guaranteed as **** stupid edge guards on Bowser, a command grab that travels forward and beats anything Bowser can do outside of committing to something like a Ftilt off a read. Once Gannon gets the forward B, he gets an easy techchase into grab into guaranteed chaingrab into free edgeguard.

 

[Scuba Steve]

For the love of god let's not change this. This is the only thing giving Ness a remotely good ledge game....which he desperately needs.

I do agree that the way the ledgejumps works right now gives some characters some desperately needed options at the ledge, notably many of the characters with poor ledgedashes. If there were some way to make it so you could air dodge just as quickly out of it but attack later, that would probably sate my thirst for keeping the low tiers down. In all seriousness, I just find the ability to attack so quickly out of ledgejump a little bit cheesy in some situations.

 

[redbeanjelly]

To throw an idea out there, one thing that could help would be to allow Bowser to charge forward with Klaw, which would give him a burst approach option and a more threatening recovery. I'm imagining an animation where holding down the B button causes him to dive forward partway through the startup; releasing the button stops his momentum and finishes the animation. If this makes it too strong, maybe make the hitbox smaller or something.

That sounds a lot like Wario shoulder charge to me. Idk, I've never been a fan of moveset changes that are so similar to other characters' stuff. That's part of the reason why the Jigglypuff Hyper Voice-sleep projectile thing never sounded appealing to me.

 

[Life]

That sounds a lot like Wario shoulder charge to me. Idk, I've never been a fan of moveset changes that are so similar to other characters' stuff. That's part of the reason why the Jigglypuff Hyper Voice-sleep projectile thing never sounded appealing to me.

It's closer to Quickdraw than anything, tbh. I know some people dislike burst movement specials, but if there's a character that could really benefit from it, it's Bowser.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

That sounds a lot like Wario shoulder charge to me. Idk, I've never been a fan of moveset changes that are so similar to other characters' stuff. That's part of the reason why the Jigglypuff Hyper Voice-sleep projectile thing never sounded appealing to me.

no like smash 4 customs for bowser