Tier List Speculation

[Binary Clone]

I'm always going back and forth on Zard.

He has amazing grounded mobility to help make up for hist fatness and he does have a mostly good tool-kit.

But then, at the same time, stuff just seems to kinda not work for him or mesh well or something. Something, I feel, is missing for him.

Idk. I just can't decide quite how I feel about him.

He's missing the flying flamethrower he deserves

@JOE!

 

[Life]

Ledge dash? Dunno what his frame data on it is but it's probably ur best bet anyway

In theory Zard can get off the ledge pretty easily with glide attack, but it's a big risk since he loses all his jumps if he screws up, so I'm hesitant to use it more than occasionally.

I've always been bad about ledgedashing, but maybe it's finally time to grind it out.

 

[DMG]

I had the same opinion about ledge dashing until I realize how god dang broken it is for a decent number of chars. Landing onstage with invincibility from the edge, sometimes with invincible attacks, is way too good to pass up.

 

[Mc.Rad]

I had the same opinion about ledge dashing until I realize how god dang broken it is for a decent number of chars. Landing onstage with invincibility from the edge, sometimes with invincible attacks, is way too good to pass up.

mmmmmmmmmm Up-Tilt abuse

 

[Life]

I had the same opinion about ledge dashing until I realize how god dang broken it is for a decent number of chars. Landing onstage with invincibility from the edge, sometimes with invincible attacks, is way too good to pass up.

*points to Squirtle icon*

I'm assuming the ledge at the middle of Temple is still one of the better places to practice?

(something something ledgedash tier list)

 

[DMG]

Practice on normal stages. Treat each flub / SD as if it were a real stock in a real match.

Your pride won't allow you to be bad or lazy at ledge dashing after that

 

[Scuba Steve]

The way ledge jumps work in PM also gave some characters much better options from the ledge, especially when platforms are involved. Wavelanding on platforms after ledgejumping is basically what Fox has already been able to do in Melee on stages like Yoshi's Story.

Sometimes I feel like you can double jump and attack a bit too early out of the ledgejump, though.

 

[robosteven]

Point is, we might want to revise how bad Jiggs really is in this game.

We might want to revise how bad everyone might be in this game.

Aside from characters that have things that straight-up do not work (e.g. Pikmin Chain), if Puff isn't actually that bad then we really need to tone down all of these constant buffs and let the metagame continue to develop with the sub-par characters so we can figure out what they "really need in order to compete" instead of going full-speed-ahead with buffs to everything from Melee.

What I'm saying is that if Puff is actually okay in PM then we all need to slow the **** down with how bad the other characters might be instead of hopping aboard the buff train for everyone else. I'm all for Puff getting more options or better tools, but from a design standpoint it doesn't make much sense to me for her not to get something at this point, even if small, where other characters like Bowser, Ganon, G&W, etc. have been getting new things* for the past few patches. It just seems contradictory to me is all.

tl;dr If Puff is actually on par with the rest of the cast like you seem to be implying (correct me if you're not), then we should probably wait much longer for the metagame to develop than we have been in previous builds before we go buffing or nerfing characters, as opposed to simply making tweaks that fall more in line with the PM design goals like in 3.5.


*new things meaning new options that they didn't have in a previous build, or in Melee, like G&W up-b or Bowser side-b setups

edit: Waiting for someone to call me out on the fact that Marth, Fox, Falco, Captain Falcon, etc. didn't really get any new things either.

 

[TTTTTsd]

So, it's not PM social but this IS relevant to the development of characters and options but uh....shield dropping in PM is approximately way easier than it is in Melee and after I post this there's really no excuse to not get it at least 75% of the time.

As it turns out, there are specific angles you can press on the control stick that will allow you to shield drop with any given timing, fast or slow. Diagonal but not quite straight diagonal in either direction allows you to instantly shield drop from a platform with no timing requirements.

@Umbreon and I both tested, and he came up with some angles for reference, those being 270 +/- 40 degrees, so anything within this angle.

I encourage y'all to go and try it, it's basically consistent, easy shield dropping. It's not large metagame changing but I wager this might help a handful of characters now that it's a really easy to use option (compared to Melee)

...yes, I was labbing way too hard when I discovered this a couple of days ago....but it's pretty damn neat!

 

[robosteven]

So, it's not PM social but this IS relevant to the development of characters and options but uh....shield dropping in PM is approximately way easier than it is in Melee

yeah so are most things

As it turns out, there are specific angles you can press on the control stick that will allow you to shield drop with any given timing, fast or slow. Diagonal but not quite straight diagonal in either direction allows you to instantly shield drop from a platform with no timing requirements.

You're right though, that is neat. Gonna have to practice it.

 

[Soft Serve]

But shield dropping is already pretty easy, although this will really help people who's controller itself has bad notch positioning relative to the gate for the threshold

 

[TTTTTsd]

But shield dropping is already pretty easy, although this will really help people who's controller itself has bad notch positioning relative to the gate for the threshold

Also lets you do it reactively and quick which is good for high tension, high action. It's just much easier in general, pretty nice trick for flawed controllers/notches (never thought of that myself!)

 

[robosteven]

But shield dropping is already pretty easy, although this will really help people who's controller itself has bad notch positioning relative to the gate for the threshold

not if you're impatient like me

and not if you haven't practiced it at all

like m-me...

 

[InfinityCollision]

That's Exactly what bothers me the most about mewtwo.. His movement is uncomfortable and that holds me back a lot.

Poor waveland ECB aside, I can't say I've ever found Mewtwo's movement "uncomfortable". Unconventional, sure, but there's nothing wrong with that and I wouldn't say it's held me back at all.

If we really want to normalize dash/run movement somewhat on the slower end of the cast then I obviously wouldn't complain about buffing his terminal run speed to 1.55~1.6, but that's about as high as I'd be willing to go. Leave his initial dash speed at 1.4. It'd be a slight buff, but only very slight. His other options would still be faster, basically just gives him a marginally better DD and pivot game.

Emphasis on diverse but relatively committed movement options is part of his core design, changing that would have widespread ramifications.

 

[Idostuff]

I know yall have been saying that MK is top 5 since 3.6 came out, but can someone explain why? It must be all theory right? Because i dont see anyone putting out the results yet. I too think he is high tier (top 10ish) but I guess I just haven't seen anyone perform up to the level of where everyone is placing him to be convinced of his top 5'ness

 

[DMG]

Fast Mini Sheik with a Sword and Kill Power

The math does itself

 

[robosteven]

Fast Mini Sheik with a Sword and Kill Power

The math does itself

you forgot his four+ recovery options

 

[Kneato]

I like numbers yes I do, I like numbers how bout you.

I used matchup data from the WIP matchup chart to get this tier list. This chart gathered data from most of the various matchup threads and top players in order to estimate character matchups.

I made an equation that combines character's average matchup, how likely a character is to get counterpicked, and strength of their negative matchups, and spits out an approximate "score".

Notes:
- Tier cutoffs are mostly arbitrary. The ones that aren't are S tier, which consists of characters strong enough to mostly negate the effects of being counterpicked, and F tier, which is reserved for Bowser who's "score" was about twice as bad as the next character up, DK.

- Most of this is reflective of character's pre-3.6 states.

- There are still gaps in the data, with some characters being affected by this more than others. Notably Pit, Peach, Yoshi, and Squirtle were missing a lot and the equation seemed to skew their "score" upwards.

This was mostly for fun but the results seem to be a semi valid representation of the state of the character list. What do you guys think?

 

[eideeiit]

Fox - laser + sword - uthrow + sheik pal dthrow - shine + roy/marth dtilt - sweetspotting + dimensional cape - some fall speed + shuttle loop - some gravity + drill run - clanking + 3 jumps = Meta knight

 

[robosteven]

S to F is a dumb range.

 

[Narelex]

I know yall have been saying that MK is top 5 since 3.6 came out, but can someone explain why? It must be all theory right? Because i dont see anyone putting out the results yet. I too think he is high tier (top 10ish) but I guess I just haven't seen anyone perform up to the level of where everyone is placing him to be convinced of his top 5'ness

Fast movement speed. One of the best dashdances in the game. Quick moves, decent finishers. Solid OOS options, good grabs, good techchase, a very scary punish game and being above him is a death sentence.

Honestly I don't know why people don't think he's top tier.

 

[DMG]

numbers

Seems pretty off on some characters due to either pessimistic MU ratings or some heavy weight thrown on slight unfavorable MU's. Based on MU safety:

Samus
ROB
Diddy
Zamus
Wario

Would all clearly be higher

 

[Narelex]

Seems pretty off on some characters due to either pessimistic MU ratings or some heavy weight thrown on slight unfavorable MU's. Based on MU safety:

Samus
ROB
Diddy
Zamus
Wario

Would all clearly be higher

Also community MU spread isn't at a reliable state yet. Most people aren't good enough to contribute.

 

[Kneato]

Seems pretty off on some characters due to either pessimistic MU ratings or some heavy weight thrown on slight unfavorable MU's. Based on MU safety:

Samus
ROB
Diddy
Zamus
Wario

Would all clearly be higher

Might be the pessimistic MU ratings because all matchups are weighted equally. The chart has ROB with an average MU of .1 (on a -3 to +3 scale) and he only has 4 more positive matchups than he has negative. Which I guess would imply he is a relatively balanced character and plops him in the above average tier.

On the other end, people gave Wario an average of -.3 on the chart and he has 7 more negative matchups than he has positives. This would imply being slightly underpowered and puts him in the below average tier.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

On Zard ledge options, he can ledge hop ac fair, that seems decent. He also has a semi decent stall (maybe not fully invincible, but still useful). You can also do jump away from ledge nair/bair. I wouldn't call it great.

 

[Kneato]

Also community MU spread isn't at a reliable state yet. Most people aren't good enough to contribute.

I know its not. Lots of data is missing and I don't think all of the matchups are completely accurate. I know that means that tier list is innacurate. But TBH that chart is basically our best effort so far and if people want more reliable data, we need to convince more good players to contribute.

 

[Player -0]

If his flamethrower were okay it would probably be good but rip lol.

 

[Kneato]

I know its not. Lots of data is missing and I don't think all of the matchups are completely accurate. I know that means that tier list is innacurate. But TBH that chart is basically our best effort so far and if people want more reliable data, we need to convince specifically more good players to contribute.

EDIT How did this message happen

 

[Binary Clone]

If his flamethrower were okay it would probably be good but rip lol.

I'm... I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. That if it were good, it would be good?


I also think that the MU chart-based tier list is a fun idea. Obviously it's rough because the MU charts are unreliable at best right now, but lines up in a very general sense, I think, with a handful of exceptions.

 

[Narelex]

I know its not. Lots of data is missing and I don't think all of the matchups are completely accurate. I know that means that tier list is innacurate. But TBH that chart is basically our best effort so far and if people want more reliable data, we need to convince more good players to contribute.

I've been overhauling the MK MU list over the list few days based off feedback and I have yet to give it to auramaude so it's currently inaccurate.

I'm... I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. That if it were good, it would be good?

If he was talking about flying flamethrower. I think he meant if Base flamethrower was actually good a flying one would be as well.

 

[Spralwers]

This was mostly for fun but the results seem to be a semi valid representation of the state of the character list. What do you guys think?

Far too many "tiers."

The reason you create tiers is because you see noticeable gaps in power levels. So much so that you say "this/these character(s) are better enough that they get put into their own, higher tier, above these others."

When traveling up the tier list from the prospective bottom, there is no way I can make six distinct cutoffs in character power level. 3 at most.

I do understand that you said the cutoffs are arbitrary, but ironically the cutoffs are, IMO, the most important aspect of making a tier list. I do like the approach of ordering the tier list by prospective MU ratios, it's probably how it's gonna have to be done. The other way of making a tier list is predicting who has the highest skill ceiling by analyzing and comparing the strengths/weaknesses of movesets, then ordering the tiers that way. But I think that's too difficult to do in this game.

 

[Jonyc128]

I had the same opinion about ledge dashing until I realize how god dang broken it is for a decent number of chars. Landing onstage with invincibility from the edge, sometimes with invincible attacks, is way too good to pass up.

Ledgedashing with Mario is super good, I think you get 10-11 frames of invulnerability if done frame perfectly.
So far I can Ledgedash ->Shield, Ledgedash ->Jab, Ledgedash -> dsmash, and I'm pretty sure I could get Ledgedash -> to any tilt since all of them are 5 frames or less.

 

[Kneato]

Far too many "tiers."

The reason you create tiers is because you see noticeable gaps in power levels. So much so that you say "this/these character(s) are better enough that they get put into their own, higher tier, above these others."

When traveling up the tier list from the prospective bottom, there is no way I can make six distinct cutoffs in character power level. 3 at most.

I do understand that you said the cutoffs are arbitrary, but ironically the cutoffs are, IMO, the most important aspect of making a tier list. I do like the approach of ordering the tier list by prospective MU ratios, it's probably how it's gonna have to be done. The other way of making a tier list is predicting who has the highest skill ceiling by analyzing and comparing the strengths/weaknesses of movesets, then ordering the tiers that way. But I think that's too difficult to do in this game.

The way I cut the tiers was, S was the only tier with a positive score, which would imply they are so good they are almost immune to character counterpick.

Bowser got his own tier just because his score was the lowest by an incredible margin.

And each tier in between ranges over about a 1 point difference in "score".

For the sake of tiers representing actual power differences, I'd probably cut it like so:

There is now a rather sizable difference between every jump in tier.

If this were based off of completely accurate data, I would say that C and D tier characters need a bit of help, and S tier characters need to be toned down somehow.

 

[Life]

I think he was talking about ledgehop flamethrower as a ledge option for Zard.

 

[Rawkobo]

The way I cut the tiers was, S was the only tier with a positive score, which would imply they are so good they are almost immune to character counterpick.

Bowser got his own tier just because his score was the lowest by an incredible margin.

And each tier in between ranges over about a 1 point difference in "score".

For the sake of tiers representing actual power differences, I'd probably cut it like so:

View attachment 72769

There is now a rather sizable difference between every jump in tier.

If this were based off of completely accurate data, I would say that C and D tier characters need a bit of help, and S tier characters need to be toned down somehow.

Something tells me I need to go have a look at this community matchup page. Wario in C and ROB/Lucario/Diddy in B? That seems really weird and off to me.

Also, I don't necessarily agree with the nerfing of any of the S-tiers, even if MK has become an annoying little twit to fight at times. The gap isn't really that huge anymore.

 

[Kneato]

Something tells me I need to go have a look at this community matchup page. Wario in C and ROB/Lucario/Diddy in B? That seems really weird and off to me.

Also, I don't necessarily agree with the nerfing of any of the S-tiers, even if MK has become an annoying little twit to fight at times. The gap isn't really that huge anymore.

Check out the match up chart. The reason I say nerf the S tiers isn't just because they are the best in the game right now. It's because they virtually can't be counterpicked (if the data is accurate).

Fox literally loses to no one. The others lose only a handful of matchup and not by much. They circumvent the whole possibility of disadvantage by counterpick which everyone else has to deal with.

It leads to a dilemma. If you main any other character, you are at risk of meeting a poor matchup in bracket and getting knocked out because of it. So you may pick up a secondary to cover your weak matchups...

...but why do that and split your efforts among two characters when you could just main one S tier?

 

[Narelex]

Check out the match up chart. The reason I say nerf the S tiers isn't just because they are the best in the game right now. It's because they virtually can't be counterpicked (if the data is accurate).

Fox literally loses to no one. The others lose only a handful of matchup and not by much. They circumvent the whole possibility of disadvantage by counterpick which everyone else has to deal with.

It leads to a dilemma. If you main any other character, you are at risk of meeting a poor matchup in bracket and getting knocked out because of it. So you may pick up a secondary to cover your weak matchups...

...but why do that and split your efforts among two characters when you could just main one S tier?

Well I recently was informed more on the MK Link MU. Including the fact he can chaingrab him from 52% to 150% so we have another MK counter right there.

EDIT forgot to mention this then leads to an Up-b or Dair which will kill you.

 

[mimgrim]

Well I recently was informed more on the MK Link MU. Including the fact he can chaingrab him from 52% to 150% so we have another MK counter right there.

EDIT forgot to mention this then leads to an Up-b or Dair which will kill you.

Don't get grabed.

Your a super fast little puffball. You shouldn't be getting grabbed by a tether grab that much unless you goofed up.

I seriously fail to see how a good punish game from X character on Y character makes X character a counter to Y character if Y character can still dominate the neutral on X character really bad while still having a good punish game themselves on X character. Otherwise Fox wouldn't have nearly as many good MUs as he does.

MK is still a fast little thing and should be able to easily keep Link from doing things as a result.

I def can't see Link being a counter to MK.

 

[Narelex]

Don't get grabed.

Your a super fast little puffball. You shouldn't be getting grabbed by a tether grab that much unless you goofed up.

I seriously fail to see how a good punish game from X character on Y character makes X character a counter to Y character if Y character can still dominate the neutral on X character really bad while still having a good punish game themselves on X character. Otherwise Fox wouldn't have nearly as many good MUs as he does.

MK is still a fast little thing and should be able to easily keep Link from doing things as a result.

I def can't see Link being a counter to MK.

He also does well at boxing MK out and CCing a lot of his Moves. Me and Umbreon had this discussion on skype. Its not just the chaingrab. By "counter" I mean a negative MU.

MK's MU's probably don't get worse then 40/60 max.

 

[Rawkobo]

Check out the match up chart. The reason I say nerf the S tiers isn't just because they are the best in the game right now. It's because they virtually can't be counterpicked (if the data is accurate).

Fox literally loses to no one. The others lose only a handful of matchup and not by much. They circumvent the whole possibility of disadvantage by counterpick which everyone else has to deal with.

It leads to a dilemma. If you main any other character, you are at risk of meeting a poor matchup in bracket and getting knocked out because of it. So you may pick up a secondary to cover your weak matchups...

...but why do that and split your efforts among two characters when you could just main one S tier?

I don't think the data is accurate, which might be my problem here.