Tier List Speculation

[InfinityCollision]

Edit to be on-topic: http://shoryuken.com/2015/05/21/hum...hting-games-or-why-blocking-isnt-always-easy/

Average human reaction is 16 frames.

You do realize that you just linked to an article intended to demonstrate that human reaction time is meaningfully slower than that in most relevant situations? I suggest you try the Millia Blocker test for yourself.

 

[DahremRuhar]

You do realize that you just linked to an article intended to demonstrate that human reaction time is meaningfully slower than that in most relevant situations? I suggest you try the Millia Blocker test for yourself.

Fair enough, what I said there was a bit ridiculous. I had read that article awhile ago, should have actually let it sink in. I linked it, I shouldn't have, I retract my statement about reaction time in that case.

I do also want to point this quote out as well. "The takeaway here is that we’ve all probably got faster-then-normal reaction times by now, but we can’t react to everything. This drives home the importance of a varied approach to the offensive side of whatever fighting game you prefer. Don’t always go for a low. Don’t always throw. Be sure to mixup your approach, but also know when to keep some of your options out of the opponent’s mind—like the overhead in the Ultra Street Fighter IV example above—to throw out when they least expect them. And if you get hit with the occasional mixup, don’t get discouraged; we’re all only human"

That. If I have misread or understood the above discussion, let me know.
B-throw is a mixup that punishes DIing properly against D-throw. Let's just assume that it is impossible to react and DI to escape that mixup. Let's say you are forced to make a 50/50 guess. Okay, tough luck, don't get grabbed again. Adapt. Yes that's easier said then done, but that is also what separates the good players from the mediocre.

Yeah, Sheik is a fantastic character, but imo, having a few 50/50 mixups like that is good design. This isn't Smash 4, you don't get a reset every time your opponent hits you.

 

[Deleted member]

NO NO NO this is SO wrong. You can NEVER react to shine it is completely impossible even if humans had instant reaction it'd stll be impossible.

i legitimately cant tell i youre trolling or not

 

[Scuba Steve]

Average human reaction is 16 frames. If you have below average reaction time idk if you should bother with competitive video gaming.

Why you gotta do me like that, man

 

[Shokio]

the feels too strong tier

the feels strong tier

the feels not so strong tier

the I really don't know just guessing tier



the swagless tier


the gimme more swag tier


the too much auto-swag it's not that swag anymore tier


the fix my recovery tier


the fix my jank whatever that means tier


the stupid throws too good or too bad tier

Pikachu feels too strong? Is this a joke? And ZSS is fine, her throws are perfectly average.

I kinda agree with the auto-swag tier though lol.

 

[Scuba Steve]

I feel like everybody is getting so caught up on the frame data of these moves that they forget that like 90% of DI is done on prediction of what you're going to get hit by rather than raw reaction to the attack's animation. Not to say that frame data doesn't matter at all, but I just feel like people get their heads too deep into it sometimes to remember that it's thinking human beings behind the sticks.

 

[Zigludo]

as far as human reaction time is concerned I'm just going to say this

Plup landed 9 grabs on Leffen last night over the course of 3 games. Samus grab comes out on frame 19 in Melee. Fox spotdodge comes out on frame 3. So theoretically, if Leffen has a reaction time of less than 17 frames, he should have been able to spotdodge every grab on reaction. But in reality, he didn't, and Plup usually caught him shielding.

Leffen is arguably the best reaction-based player in the world and he managed to get grabbed by frame 19 grab a bunch of times. So, to those saying "you definitely can react in 14 frames", that seems somewhat dubious to me. you might be able to pull it off sometimes but I doubt you could get very consistent.

 

[Boiko]

Why is bucket braking a thing?

 

[The_NZA]

Why is bucket braking a thing?

Honestly, why is GnW a thing. Every time he does something like combo into his way too strong fsmash, or accidentally meteor someone into his way too strong usmash, or upb into his way too big and strong nair, or stick out his fsmash/ftilt to edgeguard you when he thinks you are going to recover with fox's side b instantly, and you react by double jumping and sidebing and it happens to stay out long enough to still kill you, i feel like vomiting. I realize his punish game takes skill to execute, but he still makes me want to vomit.

I don't get how you can have a bad neutral game with an amazing OOS escape that's faster than shine from shield and combos frame 1 3, an amazing dtilt, a low lag well spaced bair, decent wave dash, and a projectile that combos into the strongest smashes in the game, and an excellent jab. This character was the worst thing about 3.5 and the idea that he's mostly been kept the same is appalling to me. Any time i'm confronted with the idea that he still exists, the legitimacy of PM comes into question all over again as if I was watching a 3.02 character. My hate for him runs really really deep.

I literally don't understand why people spend so much time complaining about Fox and so little complaining about this 2d *******. Love him or hate him, you can't deny that Foxes work for their kills. I can't say the same thing about GnW.

 

[4tlas]

Why is bucket braking a thing?

Why is Magnet stall a thing? It just is.

Honestly, why is GnW a thing. Every time he does something like combo into his way too strong fsmash, or accidentally meteor someone into his way too strong usmash, or upb into his way too big and strong nair, or stick out his fsmash/ftilt to edgeguard you when he thinks you are going to recover with fox's side b instantly, and you react by double jumping and sidebing and it happens to stay out long enough to still kill you, i feel like vomiting. I realize his punish game takes skill to execute, but he still makes me want to vomit.

I don't get how you can have a bad neutral game with an amazing OOS escape that combos frame 1, an amazing dtilt, a low lag well spaced bair, decent wave dash, and a projectile that combos into the strongest smashes in the game, and an excellent jab. This character was the worst thing about 3.5 and the idea that he's mostly been kept the same is appalling to me. Any time i'm confronted with the idea that he still exists, the legitimacy of PM comes into question all over again as if I was watching a 3.02 character. My hate for him runs really really deep.

I literally don't understand why people spend so much time complaining about Fox and so little complaining about this 2d *******. Love him or hate him, you can't deny that Foxes work for their kills. I can't say the same thing about GnW.

UpB isn't frame 1 anymore, and you absolutely can deny that Foxes work for all of their kills.

 

[Foo]

i legitimately cant tell i youre trolling or not

Are you claiming that people can react to shine in the six frames of hitlag? Nobody in the history of smash has ever DI'd shine on reaction. People DI it because they are like, "I'm about to get shined"

 

[Ningildo]

*frame 3

A GnW main will be here to disprove your claims shortly. Or at least belittle you.

 

[Shokio]

Honestly, why is GnW a thing. Every time he does something like combo into his way too strong fsmash, or accidentally meteor someone into his way too strong usmash, or upb into his way too big and strong nair, or stick out his fsmash/ftilt to edgeguard you when he thinks you are going to recover with fox's side b instantly, and you react by double jumping and sidebing and it happens to stay out long enough to still kill you, i feel like vomiting. I realize his punish game takes skill to execute, but he still makes me want to vomit.

I don't get how you can have a bad neutral game with an amazing OOS escape that combos frame 1, an amazing dtilt, a low lag well spaced bair, decent wave dash, and a projectile that combos into the strongest smashes in the game, and an excellent jab. This character was the worst thing about 3.5 and the idea that he's mostly been kept the same is appalling to me. Any time i'm confronted with the idea that he still exists, the legitimacy of PM comes into question all over again as if I was watching a 3.02 character. My hate for him runs really really deep.

I literally don't understand why people spend so much time complaining about Fox and so little complaining about this 2d *******. Love him or hate him, you can't deny that Foxes work for their kills. I can't say the same thing about GnW.

Lmaooo. Yeah G&W is just a big ball of WTF. I don't hate him as much as you do, but yeah, it makes me scratch my head when I see the majority of the roster receiving significant nerfs while G&W has been left largely unchanged when he's one of the silliest mofo's in the game. The Dev Team will get around to him eventually though.

Foxes don't work for their kills though, generally speaking. Up-throw --> Up Air, Shine gimps, etc.

 

[mimgrim]

Waveshines are pretty slick imo. They just look really smooth.

I don't have that much of a problem with shine at this point. I just want Fox tweaked so that he gets less out of noninteractive strategies. Do that, keep the fun stuff, distill Fox down to the cool things.

That alone is half the reason Wolf gets significantly less complaints that Fox even if he's also crazy good.

Luas' Wavemagnet is slicker and smoother.

I still have huge problems with Shine (whereas I don't really have that much proble with Fox in general aside from lasers and think Falco and Wolf are fine). I just 100% hate Shine as a design concept, if they were more like how Magnets work in PM I wouldn't have much of a problem with them, either comes out slower (I believe Ness' comes out frame 8 and JCable on frame 10, which is good as it keeps it as a solid versatile move that isn't overbearing at 1 frame) or only hits in front them while also still being slower then frame 1 (I believe Lucas' comes out on frame 5 and is JCable on frame 9 and only hits in front of him and it is still a really good move for his kit and is still versatile). At the very least I would like them to be more like Magnets in terms of when the hit-box comes out and when it is JCable.

Though my absolute preference would be for Fox to lose his JC ability on his but keep its gimping ability and have that become it's niche, heck with this I wouldn't mind seeing its frame 1 invic come back so as to serve as a get off my move. But I realize that is pretty radical and will never happen so I would be just as fine with it receiving Magnet treatment.

I would like to see Falco gain Brawl reflector back with less end lag and more KB to make it a solid spacing tool and combo finisher. But again that is pretty radical and would still be fine if his Shine just received the Magnet treatment of not being frame 1. (Wolf's I would just want to recieve that Magnet treatment).

But meh. I've ranted about Shine enough.

the fix my recovery tier

As a TL main. Lolololol no. His recovery is fine as it is. it's not too weak and it isn't to strong. He has a lot of mix-ups when recovering with his bombs and other projectile to cover him (while he is already holding a bomb), Up Special goes up just the right amount of distance, and tether is, well, a tether and does fine for what it is (another mix-up to keep your opponent on their toes). But despite the mix-ups he has while recovering there is a ton of possible interaction from the opponent to mess with it and gimp him. Nothing about his recovery needs fixing.

Now if you are just talking about tether mechanic in general, then fine. But label it as such and not under the broader subject of recovery.

 

[Deleted member]

Why is bucket braking a thing?

because we dont know how to take it out

Are you claiming that people can react to shine in the six frames of hitlag? Nobody in the history of smash has ever DI'd shine on reaction. People DI it because they are like, "I'm about to get shined"

so what lol theres no functional difference, even mediocre players can consistently DI shines

 

[GDP]

because we dont know how to take it out



so what lol theres no functional difference, even mediocre players can consistently DI shines

ONLY if they read that they were about to get shined. That is a hugely meaningful difference. Other moves (such as throws that take >15 frames) are reactable WITHOUT a read.

What point are you trying to make here? I'm pretty sure it is an insignificant one

 

[Ripple]

so what lol theres no functional difference, even mediocre players can consistently DI shines

there is a difference when youre following the argument of "sheik's throws aren't reactable" which is what started this I believe.

players aren't reacting to the shine, they are reacting to getting aerial'ed whether on shield or not or even to the SH before the aerial.

seeing sheik grab you or even dash doesn't give you information ahead of time about which way the throw will happen.

 

[DrinkingFood]

14 frames is plenty to react to with practice

No, it's not
http://shoryuken.com/2015/05/21/hum...hting-games-or-why-blocking-isnt-always-easy/

@Umbreon decision based reaction time is very different from twitch reaction time. twitch reaction time usually involves a single stimulus with a single response. the lower bounds as far as expected human twitch reaction time are 12-14 frames depending on what outliers you cut out. Stuff like grabbing tech in place requires 18-19 frame reaction time and is usually considered doable, but just barely. As far as stuff like peach's frame 11 fthrow, you can generally just DI for the fthrow by default and then react to the other throws which are slower, or just not have to worry about them because they aren't menacing at those percents, so in reality you get 18 frames, counting from the start of the grab, plus the likelihood goes up if you know peach is guaranteed to be able to grab you based on positional/situational cues meaning you could have a much larger swath of time. Like if you're at high percent, the peach is gonna try and send you offstage, survival DI covers nair/fair/fthrow/etc and doesn't give you bad DI for very many other things since she can't get many follow-ups at that percent. And DIing shine? people miss that all the time. But when they don't, it's not reacting to shine itself, it's reacting to positioning. Like, spacy on top of you, what else are they gonna do that's as threatening as shine? So you react to them being on top of you. The difference for sheik's old throws was there was no way to react to position/situation since the start-up was a grab, so you had strictly that ~14 frames to react from the start of either throw, which as far as decision making (which includes identifying that one throw is happening rather than the other) is not possible; people who usually say they did DI it successfully on reaction are exhibiting confirmation bias which is really common when the threshold for reaction is just barely missed but they guessed right anways, so it "feels" like they were responsible for the correct DI because they almost were.

 

[Phan7om]

Dang, that ish got linked twice

 

[GDP]

I literally don't understand why people spend so much time complaining about Fox and so little complaining about this 2d *******.

Every scene has good foxes, therefore every bad/inexperienced player knows the feeling of getting repeatedly owned by Fox and not knowing what just happened.

That is not the ONLY reason people complain about fox. But I'm pretty sure it's a huge one. Gdubs on the other hand is still unpopular in this game, because it is new, and not every amazing character/strategy/playstyle has been discovered yet (this is actually a very unpopular opinion on this board as far as i can tell.)

Love him or hate him, you can't deny that Foxes work for their kills

I have seen the exact OPPOSITE sentiment expressed so many times from PM players that it numbs my brain.

 

[Foo]

so what lol theres no functional difference, even mediocre players can consistently DI shines

Because you said people DI it on reaction all the time even though that's blatantly and objectively false?

 

[DrinkingFood]

Dang, that ish got linked twice

yeah posted before reading lmao. I always knew there was something fishy going on when people say stuff like "human reaction time is like 14 frames bruh, you can totally just upsmash mewtwo out of teleport approaches", so I was super happy when somebody finally did an article on it, with a demonstrative mini-game thing to hammer the point home.

@Warchamp7 you should make up a quick site similar to humanbenchmark's site but where instead of reaction to one thing, you have to react to a few things and press the right button, and have averages/scoreboards etc so we can kinda put this discussion to rest
I tagged you because you're a website guy. Please do website things for me

 

[GDP]

For people wondering how quickly they can react to foxes techs, there's always this site:
http://reactiontraining.herokuapp.com/

It's a little flash app or something and it spits out how fast you reacted in milliseconds. Every time I get one wrong it crashes my browser though LOL

edit: apparently it's only stable on Google Chrome. So, there's that.

 

[ELI-mination]

My current tier list opinions of 3.6b (Characters not ordered within tiers):
S:
A:
B:
C:
D:
E:
F:

and are actually stupidly broken this patch. Godlike recovery, easy access combos, easy to land kill moves, and extremely quick aerials.

I literally JUST saw this for the first time
Are you ********

 

[InfinityCollision]

Eli

why

10why

 

[Boiko]

Why is Magnet stall a thing? It just is.

You understand the difference between those two things, right? Magnet stalling slows your descent. Bucket braking stops all of your momentum after getting hit by an attack. So you can live things you're not supposed to live. They're entirely different. I wish magnet braking was a thing. LOL.

 

[Manaconda]

I'm bored and I've decided it's time to complain about one of my characters again. Before any accusations of whining, I'd like to emphasize the fact that I think Peach is perfect apart from Toad and what I'm about to talk about (and maybe her broken as **** beam sword).

So what do you guys think about this?

To summarize, Axe was able to AGT the turnips Silly Kyle threw offstage to help him recover. You don't have to be on Axe's level to do this, there are scrubby Marths and GnWs I play against who can do this too.

That's way beyond turnip counterplay and wicked hurts her item game for anyone who knows the Peach MU (her item game advantage is a lot weaker onstage too but that's something else I'd rant about entirely). Throwing turnips offstage becomes detrimental to edgeguarding, one of Peach's notable strengths in Melee that helped her keep up with the top tiers. It's even worse in a game with better recoveries. In Melee they would just limit the opponent's attack options to specials and an item throw, and if they landed on stage with the turnip, you got a bunch of extra frames to attack them because their normals are occupied.

I was just reminded of it because I used to still do it to people who didn't know any better (I guess it's a gimmick, lol) but as of today literally everyone I regularly face can do it. Like the information spread and everyone AGTs and wavedashes into turnips and all that new ****.

I'm a little upset, and honestly just came here to vent and hope people notice how her item game is now, because I don't even know how to overcome this. It's gotten to the point where I only use turnips if I throw one to lead the way and follow right behind it to punish any possible catches, which is very predictable, or I don't throw it at all and try to keep them worried about it (less worried than in Melee though).

I sometimes intentionally get rid of stitchfaces against better players now. ;_;

Obviously I can AGT and catch turnips right back, but it's more and more tempting to go Falcon instead of Peach for matches recently just so I don't have to deal with their turnip bull****. Any tips from other item users? Out of like the 3 players that post in the Peach boards, they seem kind of miffed by this too.

 

[Player -0]

Bait then punish with floatfloat -> fall Nair/Fair during their Throw animation

 

[jtm94]

I believe that's reacting to a stimulus, not recognizing a stimulus, making a decision, and then reacting. I suppose someone with good reaction time could always DI one way and train themselves to recognize the animation for the other throw so well that they can swap in time, but I doubt it.

So I'm not sure your data is correct either.

I've seen people DI on reaction, it is humanly possible.
I guess it is true that if my controller is on the ground and I'm looking at the ceiling I will never DI correctly, they should make DI just happen for me so I don't have to play as hard as M2K or Mango to beat M2K or Mango, that isn't fair.

Wow Leffen got grabbed by Samus a couple times. That is clearly a scientific basis of which we should justify all forms of reaction on forever and ever. I don't need to go on about how baseless that/these arguments are getting. Tier List Spec has never been a thread that always had it together, but it's getting worse.

@ The_NZA
Stay salty my friend. I can use Fox and do 3 times better than with GnW on day 1.
It's people like you that come in and just drop heaps of complaints that get characters changed when they aren't problematic. We all know you hate GnW, you restating it every few pages doesn't change anything. It is honestly people exactly like you that make me want to quit this game because of your extreme negativity towards characters instead of playing the game as it is, the way the developers made it, you'd rather complain until unique traits are nerfed into the ground.

Is the character fairly easy? Yes. Does he have amazing movement? A slightly below average run speed, usable dash dance, good wavedash. Are his moves safe on shield? No. Can you DI out of bair completely or sdi out of it? Yes. Does the landing hitbox of dair have too much hit stun? Probably. Is there counter play to his throws? Yes.

There are multiple characters and traits that I am still dubious about going into 3.6. Some of them are on my character, but I am doing my best to play around them instead of slandering the players of these characters because at the end of the day I love playing this game, and I can take joy out of facing every single character.

 

[Boiko]

I've seen people DI on reaction, it is humanly possible.

That is clearly a scientific basis of which we should justify all forms of reaction on forever and ever.

 

[Manaconda]

Bait then punish with floatfloat -> fall Nair/Fair during their Throw animation

Bait what? Also item throws come out faster than it takes for Peach to float above their item throw height, move towards them, and fast fall FC aerial. Advice appreciated though.

 

[Arrow (Kyle)]

My tier list:
NYC
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Everyone else.

You all suck and will never be as good as us. Nuff said. Bunch of Fegs.

 

[DrinkingFood]

I'm bored and I've decided it's time to complain about one of my characters again. Before any accusations of whining, I'd like to emphasize the fact that I think Peach is perfect apart from Toad and what I'm about to talk about (and maybe her broken as **** beam sword).

So what do you guys think about this?

To summarize, Axe was able to AGT the turnips Silly Kyle threw offstage to help him recover. You don't have to be on Axe's level to do this, there are scrubby Marths and GnWs I play against who can do this too.

That's way beyond turnip counterplay and wicked hurts her item game for anyone who knows the Peach MU (her item game advantage is a lot weaker onstage too but that's something else I'd rant about entirely). Throwing turnips offstage becomes detrimental to edgeguarding, one of Peach's notable strengths in Melee that helped her keep up with the top tiers. It's even worse in a game with better recoveries. In Melee they would just limit the opponent's attack options to specials and an item throw, and if they landed on stage with the turnip, you got a bunch of extra frames to attack them because their normals are occupied.

I was just reminded of it because I used to still do it to people who didn't know any better (I guess it's a gimmick, lol) but as of today literally everyone I regularly face can do it. Like the information spread and everyone AGTs and wavedashes into turnips and all that new ****.

I'm a little upset, and honestly just came here to vent and hope people notice how her item game is now, because I don't even know how to overcome this. It's gotten to the point where I only use turnips if I throw one to lead the way and follow right behind it to punish any possible catches, which is very predictable, or I don't throw it at all and try to keep them worried about it (less worried than in Melee though).

I sometimes intentionally get rid of stitchfaces against better players now. ;_;

Obviously I can AGT and catch turnips right back, but it's more and more tempting to go Falcon instead of Peach for matches recently just so I don't have to deal with their turnip bull****. Any tips from other item users? Out of like the 3 players that post in the Peach boards, they seem kind of miffed by this too.

I've been thinking for a little while that peach is secretly bad in PM just because of how AGT affects her item game; of course being bad in PM doesn't seem to be that big a deal compared to bad melee chars like pichu bowser and friends, but most people seem to be way behind on the proper-responses-to-turnips meta but as soon as they catch up, people will have very little reason to stay in peach's zone when they can just run/jump circles around her, wait for her to commit, and deal with the turnips that she pulls in response to your far spacing

 

[GMaster171]

yeah posted before reading lmao. I always knew there was something fishy going on when people say stuff like "human reaction time is like 14 frames bruh, you can totally just upsmash mewtwo out of teleport approaches", so I was super happy when somebody finally did an article on it, with a demonstrative mini-game thing to hammer the point home.

@Warchamp7 you should make up a quick site similar to humanbenchmark's site but where instead of reaction to one thing, you have to react to a few things and press the right button, and have averages/scoreboards etc so we can kinda put this discussion to rest
I tagged you because you're a website guy. Please do website things for me

http://www.teyah.net/MilliaBlocker_v0.3.swf
This should work just as well, you have to hit any button in reaction to one of two overheads (both are around 16 frames, pressing before she starts is a penalty), but she also sometimes doesn't use either and you get penalized for hitting a button then.

 

[DrinkingFood]

http://www.teyah.net/MilliaBlocker_v0.3.swf
This should work just as well, you have to hit any button in reaction to one of two overheads (both are around 16 frames, pressing before she starts is a penalty), but she also sometimes doesn't use either and you get penalized for hitting a button then.

Well the thing is, reacting to stuff with a decision is something that can be trained so I was hoping to get numbers for something that takes the need for training out so we can get hypothetical lower-limit numbers for reaction time when you have to make a decision. Like with Milia's overheads, you need to be able to recognize the animations ASAP so you'd have to train your brain to react to the very first frame of the animation or else there'd really be no chance. This is assuming you can even do it; it says 16 frames which to means seems very unlikely from anybody who's not an outlier as far as actual potential reaction time goes. But the idea would be, jsut color shifts, and you press corresponding buttons, so there's no need to worry about what part of the animation you're reacting to, that's something the brain naturally identifies

 

[GMaster171]

Ah, I see what you mean. I'm of no help there sadly.

 

[Arrow (Kyle)]

>Spam Infraction

As if that wasn't a real tier list.


Feeeeeegs.

 

[DrinkingFood]

But about milia blocker in particular, I tried looking for first-frame animations to react to and found that for her front flip overhead kick (dunno names lol) she plants her hair between where her feet were. Using that and minimal practice I was hitting ~23-25 frames reaction. But then her other overhead completely removed her from that spot so I would have to be once again focused on the whole screen rather than any particular spot, making reacting to that one way more difficult if I was prepared for the other.

 

[Manaconda]

I've been thinking for a little while that peach is secretly bad in PM just because of how AGT affects her item game; of course being bad in PM doesn't seem to be that big a deal compared to bad melee chars like pichu bowser and friends, but most people seem to be way behind on the proper-responses-to-turnips meta but as soon as they catch up, people will have very little reason to stay in peach's zone when they can just run/jump circles around her, wait for her to commit, and deal with the turnips that she pulls in response to your far spacing

This is a big dent in her neutral game. Turnips mean so much to her in Melee but AGT in PM makes the commitment of pulling them more of a burden against people who know AGT.

I can't think of a reasonable way the PMDT would even fix this. Other item wielders have better uses for their items (occupying the stage, possibly leading into techchases, exploding) in addition to controlling space in front of you and hitting your opponent, unlike turnips which only do the latter. Making turnips an exception to AGT and airdodge catching (so you have to catch and throw them how you did in Melee) seems kind of extreme and unfair to Peach's opponents, but it could balance out the lack of exploding/lingering-on-the-stage properties that the other items have. I don't know honestly

http://www.teyah.net/MilliaBlocker_v0.3.swf
This should work just as well, you have to hit any button in reaction to one of two overheads (both are around 16 frames, pressing before she starts is a penalty), but she also sometimes doesn't use either and you get penalized for hitting a button then.

I must really suck because I can't block her dtilt or whatever her game's equivalent of that is, at all. I can block her jump-hair-whip thing and some other move involving an overhead kick very consistently though.

 

[1FD]

And ZSS is fine, her throws are perfectly average.

I kinda agree with the auto-swag tier though lol.

I'm talking about her tether grab changed to a normal grab
removal of unique stuff for normalization, she lost so much swag with all the recent patches it's sad

Now if you are just talking about tether mechanic in general, then fine. But label it as such and not under the broader subject of recovery.

or you could look at what that whole tier has in common
Ivy top of that tier might make it clearer

GW is swag
really easy to destroy things with him with and without swag

Game needs MORE swag, not less

Peach can't really be that bad just cause of her hitbox coverage and speed in close range
it's really hard to actually get hits on a peach that's just trying to not get hit and not really do much else
sure she doesn't threaten everyone with deathballs from across the entire stage but you can't reeeeeally threaten her either
her ability to control the pace of a match and stage control and closing in on people is lacking hard though for sure
Always was and now it's a little notasgood because of how good characters are in PM and her turnips giving some of their goodness to things like her tilts and toad
but if she could actually close gaps and threaten people around the stage even better than melee then basically every other character in the game would be ****ed right up
peach that can chase you down?
Wolf no like, no like at all

balance is hard like that