Tier List Speculation

[Boiko]

Sheik, Ike, Marth, and Roy are all pretty common MUs to see.

 

[Ripple]

they don't body DDD's bad MUs....

 

[DMG]

D3 is bad, hail Satan Ripple Satan

 

[Boiko]

they don't body DDD's bad MUs....

I think we're making different points and we're both being too vague to actually communicate.

 

[Foo]

But it being way out there in front of him causes it to active earlier. If you don't have disjoint then you need to be extremely careful to edgeguard against it without dying. Isn't a bad recovery supposed to be one of Falcon's weaknesses?

Grounded Raptor Boost doesn't have them in front like that, aerial Raptor Boost in Melee didn't have them like that, so why is it like this?

Spoiler: Screenshots

I just don't see why it needs to be like that.

I think that it's because falcon keeps moving after raptor boost in PM aerial raptor boost. For grounded raptor boost, falcon stops moving when it colides and the same goes for melee aerial raptor boost.


Anyhow

@ Ripple @Lunchables @ Boiko Hopefully I can state both sides accurately.
Lunchables is making the point that DDD is a higher tier than Ripple thinks because DDD fairs well against top tier characters. This is important because those top tiers are the most popular characters. Therefore, if you bring a DDD to a tourney, you will likely have a good % of good matchups. While DDD loses a lot of matchups, you'll probably encounter more marths and foxes than all those characters combined.

As for ripple, I believe he is saying that top tiers are only top tiers because they beat lower tier characters, so basing a character's tier purely off of the top tier matchups doesn't work. Hard to pull something out of so few words, but I tried.

 

[Deleted member]

im watching sets that arent even mine with roy in them and just watching them pisses me off. im done until this stupid ass character gets the nerf bat

 

[FreeGamer]

<insert main/secondary here> is bottom 10, can we give them <insert buff that would better fit 3.02 or Brawl Minus>?

 

[Strong Badam]

D3's believed viability is entirely related to Fox.

who does DDD get bodied by? Ivy, TL, ZSS, Wario.

who does fox body? those characters

I don't agree that Wario "bodies" DDD, though he does have an advantage. He absolutely has nowhere near the same advantage as Ivy or TL, that's for sure.

 

[941]

im watching sets that arent even mine with roy in them and just watching them pisses me off. im done until this stupid *** character gets the nerf bat

Roy is a character I genuinely don't like to play against. Not trying to say he's OP, broken, etc., but He can be very frustrating. His sweet-spots can kill at such early percentages, and they happen to be in the same place I want my character to be so I can attack or grab him. It's not like Marth, where a tipper F-smash makes me feel like I wasn't spacing well to begin with, but rather, makes me feel like I just got destroyed because he got his attack out 1 or 2 frames before I did.

 

[DrinkingFood]

im watching sets that arent even mine with roy in them and just watching them pisses me off. im done until this stupid *** character gets the nerf bat

inb4 the only change is dtilt tipper nerf which will hardly matter because it's not like you can CC half the time you're DDing
unless you hold down cstick, and then it works until like 10% maybe depending on KBG

 

[Idostuff]

Nerfing d-tilt tipper KB and KBG doesnt only make it so you can CC the move, but it also makes it so it doesn't get insane guaranteed follow ups at all %s. Roy's recovery nerf such that he doesn't linger after up b, allowing you to edgeuard a sweetspot attempt by just rolling on stage. Those two things together should be a good minor adjustment on the character to make him not so crazy.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I'd also like to see fewer multihits on Roy's Up-B so that the move's a little easier to edgehog. Maybe something like the upper half of the move is one hit or something.

By the way this is what I hear every time I see posts in this thread about ROB:

OH NO A FATTIE WITH SHIEK'S MU SPREAD NERFNERFNERFNERF

 

[Deleted member]

I'd also like to see fewer multihits on Roy's Up-B so that the move's a little easier to edgehog. Maybe something like the upper half of the move is one hit or something.

By the way this is what I hear every time I see posts in this thread about ROB:

OH NO A FATTIE WITH SHIEK'S MU SPREAD NERFNERFNERFNERF

1. removing the float fixes that. The multihits on up b are good but the intended counterplay is to hold ledge + ledge roll to have the intangibility to beat it out... except he... floats there

2. the problem I have with rob is less of his viability and more of his toxic design, which Umbreon and I have pointed out many many many times in this thread. I'm ok with your character having a good MU spreadsheet if your character also follows da rules of smash. (Examples that aren't melee characters include 3.5 Ike and Diddy Kong)

 

[Bazkip]

I think that it's because falcon keeps moving after raptor boost in PM aerial raptor boost. For grounded raptor boost, falcon stops moving when it colides and the same goes for melee aerial raptor boost

Oh, alright. Thanks for explaining it rather than just saying "It wouldn't work properly".

Btw @Lunchables, did you check uthrow?

 

[Deleted member]

his u throw is weight independent

 

[Deleted member]

I'd also like to see fewer multihits on Roy's Up-B so that the move's a little easier to edgehog. Maybe something like the upper half of the move is one hit or something.

By the way this is what I hear every time I see posts in this thread about ROB:

OH NO A FATTIE WITH SHIEK'S MU SPREAD NERFNERFNERFNERF

the only issue i have with rob is that he can "get you" but its very hard to do that back unless you have an attribute that is already equally stupid like CF upthrow knee. a lot of people have issues with gyro or dthrow or whatever and frankly im fine with all of that.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Nerfing d-tilt tipper KB and KBG doesnt only make it so you can CC the move, but it also makes it so it doesn't get insane guaranteed follow ups at all %s. Roy's recovery nerf such that he doesn't linger after up b, allowing you to edgeuard a sweetspot attempt by just rolling on stage. Those two things together should be a good minor adjustment on the character to make him not so crazy.

70 KBG would still be 29 frames of KB, the move only has 13 frames endlag so yeah, no, the follow-ups will still be pretty free. 16 frames is plenty of time to dash forward, jump, and fair, even if you're not frame tight you can outreach them because lolsword. Plus it means if well spaced, he gets more follow-ups at higher percents

the only issue i have with rob is that he can "get you" but its very hard to do that back unless you have an attribute that is already equally stupid like CF upthrow knee. a lot of people have issues with gyro or dthrow or whatever and frankly im fine with all of that.

You may already know this but Sheik can kinda body ROB once she gets her hands on him too. Slap+needles bodies his recovery pretty badly (as they do most) since once he's below stage level his only option is boost straight up lmao, and the only way he avoids CG off dthrow is by DIing in, which gives you a slap into dash attack/regrab/tech chase depending

 

[Deleted member]

Note: Umbreon was also ok with 3.0 lucas (AND THE HOLOCAUST)
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Do we buff rob or do we nerf him !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[DrinkingFood]

what no, you can nerf ROB lol
just make sure he's not the only one
I have ideas for good ROB nerfs up to and including changes to make dsmash and dthrow less stupid, although if you guys think just a faster falling ROB would do the trick then sure, whatever
Gonna be salty tho when that ****s up all my combos for like a month after release... but i'll just grind a year of stuff all over again I guess

 

[Deleted member]

Note: Umbreon was also ok with 3.0 lucas (AND THE HOLOCAUST)
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Do we buff rob or do we nerf him !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

we should buff lucario

lucario has a bad neutral

 

[Deleted member]

we should buff lucario

lucario has a bad neutral

STOP SAYING THIS IM GOING TO KILL YOU

also DF if you think fixing d throw/dsmash is how you fix rob then you're looking at the character from a power balance perspective instead of a design perspective. Nerfing throws/normals will make him a worse character, but his gameplay will still be atrocious and toxic since we didn't address the main issue which is his attributes

 

[Deleted member]

yeah personally i have no issue with rob being a top tier, i just wish he was more interactive across the cast. you can keep dthrow and dsmash imo

 

[DrinkingFood]

STOP SAYING THIS IM GOING TO KILL YOU

also DF if you think fixing d throw/dsmash is how you fix rob then you're looking at the character from a power balance perspective instead of a design perspective. Nerfing throws/normals will make him a worse character, but his gameplay will still be atrocious and toxic since we didn't address the main issue which is his attributes

I just said changing falling speed is fine by me lol
and I already discussed that anything else, short of removing boosts entirely, still makes him play pretty much the way he does now in terms of violating the way the punishment game works
If you think anything else besides THAT is toxic then you're just incredibly salty, the rest of him works fine. Gyro and laser are both super manageable projectiles, can't really see anything else I'd call even potentially toxic besides the things we just listed.

 

[Apollo Ali]

maybe the super fatties should have all their defensive options buffed, like spot dodges, rolls, shield size.... idk.

 

[trash?]

you can make all the fattie buffs you want, but at the end of the day, a big hurtbox in smash always directly contradicts a large amount of weight by virtue of what a larger hurtbox means for combos

in hindsight, that USF4 example with zangief is a bit disingenuous; tall hurtboxes don't mean as much as you think they would in that game, since about 99% of the time, you are directly in front of your opponent. (however, I DO stand behind calling that statement of "small hurtboxes = guaranteed top tier" to be complete horseass)

in a smash game, you have to take into account that people can approach and combo you from quite literally every angle possible, so having a smaller hurtbox means everything. 'gief doesn't magically take twice the damage of an average fighter in SF4 because he's a big guy, but that same "big guy" concept in a smash game means you will be taking more damage than a marth or link, meaning there's really no positive purpose behind your heavy weight other than to even out that. to think of this on the flipside: jigglypuff can last an incredibly long time, despite being one of the lightest characters in the game. more ways of getting out of combos > more weight, defensively

unless you can find a way to break the inherent relationship between the two, then weight won't be anything to fatties than an equalizer

 

[DrinkingFood]

you can make all the fattie buffs you want, but at the end of the day, a big hurtbox in smash always directly contradicts a large amount of weight by virtue of what a larger hurtbox means for combos

in hindsight, that USF4 example with zangief is a bit disingenuous; tall hurtboxes don't mean as much as you think they would in that game, since about 99% of the time, you are directly in front of your opponent. (however, I DO stand behind calling that statement of "small hurtboxes = guaranteed top tier" to be complete horseass)

in a smash game, you have to take into account that people can approach and combo you from quite literally every angle possible, so having a smaller hurtbox means everything. 'gief doesn't magically take twice the damage of an average fighter in SF4 because he's a big guy, but that same "big guy" concept in a smash game means you will be taking more damage than a marth or link, meaning there's really no positive purpose behind your heavy weight other than to even out that. to think of this on the flipside: jigglypuff can last an incredibly long time, despite being one of the lightest characters in the game. more ways of getting out of combos > more weight, defensively

unless you can find a way to break the inherent relationship between the two, then weight won't be anything to fatties than an equalizer

You get more than just weight in correlation to large size tho. Jiggs largely gets out of combos due to floatiness, with her size and drifting speed helping out too. She's not a very good example. But regardless, you also typically get longer reach and generally larger hitboxes with a large size. The main issue to me is not that being large is bad, but that it's typically also combined with extreme slowness, either in move speed or in mobility. Ganon's and bowser's reach for example are both very good. And when they are hitting the opponent or spacing on their shield they are very good characters. But getting to that point is limited by their low mobility and higher commitment moves.

 

[Boiko]

Anyhow

@ Ripple @Lunchables @ Boiko Hopefully I can state both sides accurately.
Lunchables is making the point that DDD is a higher tier than Ripple thinks because DDD fairs well against top tier characters. This is important because those top tiers are the most popular characters. Therefore, if you bring a DDD to a tourney, you will likely have a good % of good matchups. While DDD loses a lot of matchups, you'll probably encounter more marths and foxes than all those characters combined.

As for ripple, I believe he is saying that top tiers are only top tiers because they beat lower tier characters, so basing a character's tier purely off of the top tier matchups doesn't work. Hard to pull something out of so few words, but I tried.

Yeah, I'm basically saying the same thing Lunchables is saying if that's the case.
D3 has positive, neutral, or barely losing match ups across almost all of the top tiers. That isn't a recipe for a bad character. Some may call it "anti-meta" like Samus in melee, but it's really not. D3 is just a good character.

 

[The_NZA]

Question: Can you Marth Killer Roy? Because a lot of characters can Marth Killer Marth in this game.

 

[DMG]

Question: Can you Marth Killer Roy? Because a lot of characters can Marth Killer Marth in this game.

Roy's Upb has multiple hitboxes. If you slide off the edge, his fire sword will surely sear your rear.

 

[jtm94]

So big heavy characters need good recovery because grabs lead into them being off stage and light characters need good recovery because slight hits lead into them being off stage. So everyone needs a good recovery? 3.02 had it right all along.

@ The_NZA
I'd probably say characters that won't get shield poked could probably do it to Roy easier than Marth because of the multihit properties and his hang time. As DMG said it is possible to slide off before the hitboxes are over though, I guess it comes down to timing.

 

[Deleted member]

So big heavy characters need good recovery because grabs lead into them being off stage and light characters need good recovery because slight hits lead into them being off stage. So everyone needs a good recovery? 3.02 had it right all along.

@ The_NZA
I'd probably say characters that won't get shield poked could probably do it to Roy easier than Marth because of the multihit properties and his hang time. As DMG said it is possible to slide off before the hitboxes are over though, I guess it comes down to timing.

the only way marth killer could work is if only the last hitbox makes you slide off and youd probably have to fastfall it too. however the setup position for it is both incredibly obvious and can only be a wd ff edgehog and both encourge roy to up b early to avoid it, or pull back to not hit shield at all and thus still grab the edge. marth has similar counterplay and ive never had an issue as a marth player with it (more than any other edge guard anyway) and roy seems stronger against it too.

 

[JustSomeScrub]

you can make all the fattie buffs you want, but at the end of the day, a big hurtbox in smash always directly contradicts a large amount of weight by virtue of what a larger hurtbox means for combos

in hindsight, that USF4 example with zangief is a bit disingenuous; tall hurtboxes don't mean as much as you think they would in that game, since about 99% of the time, you are directly in front of your opponent. (however, I DO stand behind calling that statement of "small hurtboxes = guaranteed top tier" to be complete horseass)

in a smash game, you have to take into account that people can approach and combo you from quite literally every angle possible, so having a smaller hurtbox means everything. 'gief doesn't magically take twice the damage of an average fighter in SF4 because he's a big guy, but that same "big guy" concept in a smash game means you will be taking more damage than a marth or link, meaning there's really no positive purpose behind your heavy weight other than to even out that. to think of this on the flipside: jigglypuff can last an incredibly long time, despite being one of the lightest characters in the game. more ways of getting out of combos > more weight, defensively

unless you can find a way to break the inherent relationship between the two, then weight won't be anything to fatties than an equalizer

Though not as much as Smash tall hurtoxes do mean a great deal in Street Fighter as well. Hitboxes are almost always connected to hurtboes in the game, there's rarely any "dijointed" hitboxes like swords in Smash. So a character sticking out big limbs can get counterpoked. Plus they have a tougher time avoiding/maneuvering around fireballs and other long lasting attacks that cover a lot of space. Characters like Zangief and Hugo have polarizing matchups just as DDD does.

That's just how it goes in fighting games. If you solo main a grappler/slow big character, you're going to run into bad matchups. Which is why players of these characters rarely see consistent success at top levels of play especially as players get that much better at zoning them out.

 

[PlateProp]

Why do all of dk's aerials lead into grab

Like I dont get why people think he's bad

 

[Rᴏb]

Because the character has peaked. There is (basically) nothing new for him to incorporate into his MU's because of how linear his design is; the only thing that can develop for him is the counterplay against him. He can only get worse.

Feel free to prove me wrong DK mains.

 

[foxygrandpa]

Because the character has peaked. There is (basically) nothing new for him to incorporate into his MU's because of how linear his design is; the only thing that can develop for him is the counterplay against him. He can only get worse.

Feel free to prove me wrong DK mains.

I dont think thats necessarily true. Theres still nobody close to optimizing him in terms of fundamentals.
Look at sheik for example. She's a traditionally easy character with pretty simple combos but lack of new techs doesnt really dictate her as an optimized character. She still has a lot of potential. DK is the same (to a lesser extent than sheik) in the sense that the way to get better with him is to simply just get better.

 

[Idostuff]

Thats funny that you mention the Sheik vs DK comparison, bc I think they are very similar characters.

 

[DMG]

Yup Luigi's busted, Dong beat Sethlon and Oracle. 20xx = Luigi

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

Yup Luigi's busted, Dong beat Sethlon and Oracle. 20xx = Luigi

Woah, really? When was this?

 

[BombKid0]

So whats happening? i just got here

 

[InfinityCollision]

So whats happening? i just got here

This thread isn't safe. Run away while you still can.