Tier List Speculation

[didds]

Most of my mains are okay with fox

But I personally feel invalidated by fox

He's pretty abusive once you get to know him on a personal level

 

[Tlock]

Oh, I completely agree with you.
I was just comparing my statements with people who are wrong about Fox.

But i've been playing and learning everything about my character nonstop for the past 5 months. I know just as much about their metagame as a character who was 12 years of development by thousands of players.

Yea.

 

[NickRiddle]

But i've been playing and learning everything about my character nonstop for the past 5 months. I know just as much about their metagame as a character who was 12 years of development by thousands of players.

Yea.

You don't understand though.
Fox is clearly OP.

 

[fabulouspants]

I'm better than m2k he's just using a better character.

 

[Terotrous]

Honest question: How many characters does Fox destroy in this game? Like, 65:35 or worse? Is there anyone that he loses to? There's always talk about nerfing Fox, but people that are for it tend to cite his properties rather than his matchups. Unless most of the cast is being invalidated by his existence, I don't see too much reason to nerf him.

I don't think there's that many, but the thing is that Fox is probably 55:45 vs most of the cast, while having at worst 40:60 matchups with 2 or 3 characters.

He's not preposterously OP, he's just a tiny bit better than everyone else, but it pays off in the long run.

 

[The_Guide]

I don't think there's that many, but the thing is that Fox is probably 55:45 vs most of the cast, while having at worst 40:60 matchups with 2 or 3 characters.

He's not preposterously OP, he's just a tiny bit better than everyone else, but it pays off in the long run.

I don't feel like that calls for a nerf. Especially since he could end up having negative matchups. The game is young, options need to be explored.

On the note of the latter, who could you see him possibly losing to? Or is that just a ballpark estimate, not meant to represent any characters in particular?

 

[Fade016]

Fox is really powerful, he may have 12 years of developed meta game but, on the contrary so is the meta game to fight fox. When it comes down to it, all characters have certain flaws and strengths, some more than others of course. but The persons mastery and style really dictates the strength of a character. most of the top level foxes I play against all use there shine uniquely. Fox will always be top tier because he has the tools to switch up his game so much. Just like Marth and most of the top tiers.

I personally think that in PM the character cast is better equipped to handle certain situations giving the player more freedom in the mental aspect of the game. Like for example Kirby can switch up his cutter direction for fake outs and the AGT mechanic. Which he could not do in melee. With the state that PM is in now I think fox will continue to be strong forever and possibly hold his crown, but there are so many more characters now that will give him a run for his money.

 

[The_Guide]

Fox is a really powerful character; he may very well be the best character in the game. What I don't get is why people think that that's a bad thing. :/

Even if he has a really good matchup spread, there's still reason to use other characters.

 

[Deleted member]

I didn't realize facts needed to be explained.
At least that's what people who constantly spout "Spacies OP" seem to show.

Oh please. The only thing I ever see people advocating for anymore is PAL-esque changes to Fox and Falco, and the reasons behind those potential changes have been put forth close to a million times.

 

[NWRL]

Buff Fire Emblem characters and nerf anything furry related. Thanks. Oh and buff Ganondork and Capn

 

[Strong Badam]

Fox is a really powerful character; he may very well be the best character in the game. What I don't get is why people think that that's a bad thing. :/

Even if he has a really good matchup spread, there's still reason to use other characters.

Here's the issue here bro:

It's incredibly rare for a character to be the best character in multiple games, let alone without any significant changes at all. For example, I play Cammy in SSF4AE2012. They're adjusting her in Ultra and I am glad because I'd feel silly using ~the best character in the game AGAIN and it being the same thing in an environment where approximately every other character has received balance adjustments to improve the game. Maybe if a lot of her **** was different and she was the best in a different way there'd be merit because I'd have to relearn a lot of things and apply her moveset in radically different ways, but I don't think it'd be fair for her to stay exactly the same especially if say Akuma/Fei Long were changed and not Cammy (a clear double standard).

There's also the fact that the character being the same gives Fox players from Melee a huge advantage that other players are factually unable to have. Mew2King often cites how he and several other players have put hundreds or even thousands of hours into their character to achieve the level of mastery that they have. Is it not painstakingly obvious that for 95% of Project M players at the moment this is LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE BECAUSE THEIR CHARACTER HASN'T EXISTED FOR THAT LONG AND ALSO GETS CHANGED WITH EACH UPDATE TO IMPROVE THE GAME? Players who main new Brawl characters or wildly changed Melee characters can't just go into the Hyperbolic Time Chamber on Kami's Lookout, practice, and come out with a level of mastery of my character as if they had been maining a character since 2006 (where they didn't even exist). This is the main reason why the lack of significant changes is particularly unfair in the eyes of many players. Even if those characters aren't necessarily a balance issue with regards to how good they are, they are certainly radically different from other characters in this way. This is clearly toxic to a game's tournament scene and not a part of the ideal Super Smash Bros. experience, regardless of the game's level of balance.

On top of that, unlike the rest of the cast, other than adjusting to new MUs no metagame advancement has to occur on the characters. Part of what makes a new game unique and interesting is this initial period of metagame advancement, where players are truly tested in what they can come up with in different situations, rather than just watching what someone else did and copying it, or even doing things you came up with 8 years ago. It's why I and many others love it when high level Melee players use new characters (Chillin/Silent Wolf's Wolf, Plup's Meta Knight, Fly Amanita's King Dedede, aMSa's Lucario, Professor Pro's Snake, Armada's Pit, etc. etc.), because we get to see their competitive mind explore and develop a metagame and execute it, rather than simply the latter.

As a player I don't really have an issue with Fox because I'm better than all but like 1 or 2 Fox players anyway, but I just wanted to clear things up to those who can't seem to understand why many people have an issue with the character.

 

[NWRL]

Aka if Adon gets nerfed then Foxco should be gutted as well

 

[Terotrous]

It's incredibly rare for a character to be the best character in multiple games, let alone without any significant changes at all. For example, I play Cammy in SSF4AE2012. They're adjusting her in Ultra and I am glad because I'd feel silly using ~the best character in the game AGAIN and it being the same thing in an environment where approximately every other character has received balance adjustments to improve the game. Maybe if a lot of her **** was different and she was the best in a different way there'd be merit because I'd have to relearn a lot of things and apply her moveset in radically different ways, but I don't think it'd be fair for her to stay exactly the same especially if say Akuma/Fei Long were changed and not Cammy (a clear double standard).

Well, it's worth noting that part of the reason Cammy is so amazing is because she's the best character in the game at exploiting a bug (unblockables), which is being fixed. It's kind of akin to the physics change from Melee to Brawl which indirectly nerfed (or buffed) a lot of characters.

 

[The_Guide]

Here's the issue here bro:

It's incredibly rare for a character to be the best character in multiple games, let alone without any significant changes at all. For example, I play Cammy in SSF4AE2012. They're adjusting her in Ultra and I am glad because I'd feel silly using ~the best character in the game AGAIN and it being the same thing in an environment where approximately every other character has received balance adjustments to improve the game. Maybe if a lot of her **** was different and she was the best in a different way there'd be merit because I'd have to relearn a lot of things and apply her moveset in radically different ways, but I don't think it'd be fair for her to stay exactly the same especially if say Akuma/Fei Long were changed and not Cammy (a clear double standard).

There's also the fact that the character being the same gives Fox players from Melee a huge advantage that other players are factually unable to have. Mew2King often cites how he and several other players have put hundreds or even thousands of hours into their character to achieve the level of mastery that they have. Is it not painstakingly obvious that for 95% of Project M players at the moment this is LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE BECAUSE THEIR CHARACTER HASN'T EXISTED FOR THAT LONG AND ALSO GETS CHANGED WITH EACH UPDATE TO IMPROVE THE GAME? Players who main new Brawl characters or wildly changed Melee characters can't just go into the Hyperbolic Time Chamber on Kami's Lookout, practice, and come out with a level of mastery of my character as if they had been maining a character since 2006 (where they didn't even exist). This is the main reason why the lack of significant changes is particularly unfair in the eyes of many players. Even if those characters aren't necessarily a balance issue with regards to how good they are, they are certainly radically different from other characters in this way. This is clearly toxic to a game's tournament scene and not a part of the ideal Super Smash Bros. experience, regardless of the game's level of balance.

On top of that, unlike the rest of the cast, other than adjusting to new MUs no metagame advancement has to occur on the characters. Part of what makes a new game unique and interesting is this initial period of metagame advancement, where players are truly tested in what they can come up with in different situations, rather than just watching what someone else did and copying it, or even doing things you came up with 8 years ago. It's why I and many others love it when high level Melee players use new characters (Chillin/Silent Wolf's Wolf, Plup's Meta Knight, Fly Amanita's King Dedede, aMSa's Lucario, Professor Pro's Snake, Armada's Pit, etc. etc.), because we get to see their competitive mind explore and develop a metagame and execute it, rather than simply the latter.

As a player I don't really have an issue with Fox because I'm better than all but like 1 or 2 Fox players anyway, but I just wanted to clear things up to those who can't seem to understand why many people have an issue with the character.

What sort of changes are we talking about here, though? Unless its something really drastic, melee players won't really need to adjust all that much. Unless you took away key things (i.e. Fox's fast/long dash dance, Falco's autocanceling lasers, or the shine's frame 1 hit or jc window), they'll still be able to lean on the metagame development of melee.

Also, would that mean that characters like Peach should be changed, in your opinion? Afaik, she has everything from melee + additional brawl and PM techs.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

The only thing I want to know anymore is who came up with the idea for Falco's lasers and why anybody thought it was a good idea to let him code it into Melee.

 

[Terotrous]

No, I don't think the objective is to drastically change Fox. It's just to keep him largely the same but slightly less amazing.

Fox is just a ridiculously solid character on paper. He's basically tops in everything except recovery, where he's near the bottom. That's just not good character design overall. Can you imagine if we tried to buff Roy to Fox's level? He's got even worse recovery, so clearly his sword has to be twice as long, the entire thing should do sweetspot damage, and flare blade now fires constant lasers while charging. He's a viable character now!

 

[CyberZixx]

Personally i'd like for the spacies/puff to be shaken up for PM. Could be interesting. Don't need to totally change them into other characters but make em different enough that the character feels like a different game. Like the balance changes you see in for instance street fighter 4.

 

[Strong Badam]

The_Guide: Changes that one would expect to a character in a proper sequel. Changed animations, different moves, different properties on moves, different physics to where the characters is actually different. Something in the vein of Melee Falco to Brawl Falco, or Brawl Wario to PM Wario.

 

[Scuba Steve]

The only thing I want to know anymore is who came up with the idea for Falco's lasers and why anybody thought it was a good idea to let him code it into Melee.

"As long as we make his lasers fire slowly when he's on the ground, they will totally be manageable. I mean, who would jump in the air to shoot lasers? That's just silly!"

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

The_Guide: Changes that one would expect to a character in a proper sequel. Changed animations, different moves, different properties on moves, different physics to where the characters is actually different.

Blasphemy

(On a more serious note though: Why do people feel like the Melee top 8 need to stay the same in the transition? The other Melee characters changed. Every Brawl character changed. It's a sequel, and a lot of Melee players have picked up new characters. Even Leffen, who says he hates the game and only plays it for money, has a Zero Suit besides his Fox. Mebbe continuing to main your main from Melee was a selling point, but I'm not seeing why that's expected, logical or even particularly necessary anymore. The physics is mostly the same; that ought to be enough, no?)

 

[Terotrous]

The_Guide: Changes that one would expect to a character in a proper sequel. Changed animations, different moves, different properties on moves, different physics to where the characters is actually different. Something in the vein of Melee Falco to Brawl Falco, or Brawl Wario to PM Wario.

Uh so if that's the case why did they revert all changed animations in Brawl back to Melee?

Falco Fair, Falco FSmash, Ganon USmash, G&W UpB, etc.

 

[Strong Badam]

I was responding to a person named The_Guide...

 

[The_Guide]

The_Guide: Changes that one would expect to a character in a proper sequel. Changed animations, different moves, different properties on moves, different physics to where the characters is actually different. Something in the vein of Melee Falco to Brawl Falco, or Brawl Wario to PM Wario.

Yeah, that'd definitely make melee players have to adjust to the game. XD

I could see myself being ok with this. Still, these characters have stayed pretty constant since demo 1.0. I've been playing against Falco since the beginning of this mod; it'd be weird to adjust to playing against something as different as what you describe.

 

[Terotrous]

I was responding to a person named The_Guide...

I figured that out just before you posted.

There does generally seem to be a very strong focus on keeping certain characters virtually unchanged though. It kind of makes sense for characters who were good and remain so, but characters like Puff and Falcon could definitely use a little love.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I would take a different Falco over one that is so badly designed. A recovery so garbage combined with stage control so potent does not a good character make.

 

[CyberZixx]

I feel that PM has enough of it's own following that we could get by with making changes to melee top 8 where needed.

 

[Terotrous]

I feel that PM has enough of it's own following that we could get by with making changes to melee top 8 where needed.

To add to this, I feel that most of the following for PM likes it specifically because it is somewhat new and fresh and makes smart changes to the previous games.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I think we like it because it's more balanced than other Smash games, but the new-ness is nice too.

 

[CyberZixx]

Both are nice. The melee vets with poor design just really stand out I find.

 

[The_Guide]

I'd be more down for these kind of changes if they'd come earlier in the game's life. Demo 1.0 came out in, what, 2010? 2011? That's nearly 3 and a half years that these characters have had their current designs. I never really played melee, but it would be weird to have folks like the spacies change that much this late in the game.

 

[Terotrous]

I'd be more down for these kind of changes if they'd come earlier in the game's life. Demo 1.0 came out in, what, 2010? 2011? That's nearly 3 and a half years that these characters have had their current designs. I never really played melee, but it would be weird to have folks like the spacies change that much this late in the game.

Personally, I feel that PM 3.0 was the first "gold" release of the game. The early builds lacked many of the current features, polish, and even characters that we have now. If PM was an "official" game they would have been playable betas.

 

[Paradoxium]

I would honestly be ok with a changed Fox. Tbh I don't think he's op, and I don't think he should be nerfed. But changing his whole design actually sounds really cool, as long as he would still be a fast rush down kind of character

 

[Terotrous]

I actually don't have any clever ideas for changing Fox that wouldn't make him even more OP.

I also don't think he needs drastic changes to be fair, and he isn't my highest priority for changes. Puff is #1, followed by G&W and the rest of the lower tier characters.

 

[Soft Serve]

G&W is perfectly fine. He already has one of the most explosive combo games of the entire cast, with a safe/flexible/large recovery and disjoints. He isn't the lightest anymore, and has good (read dead average in most aspects, which is great) jump hights and air/ground speeds. He struggles getting in, but so does a lot of the cast. He already got a better initial dash, and his wave-dash is already in the top 5 or so distance wise (comparable to Marth and Mario), so he doesn't need any new mobility tricks. His bacon could gain more control/flexibility in angles but anything too good would be obscene. I do wish that it was possible to air dodge from grounded up-b so I could do cool up-b wavelands on top platforms though.

 

[Phantasmagorical]

G&W is perfectly fine. He already has one of the most explosive combo games of the entire cast, with a safe/flexible/large recovery and disjoints. He isn't the lightest anymore, and has good (read dead average in most aspects, which is great) jump hights and air/ground speeds. He struggles getting in, but so does a lot of the cast. He already got a better initial dash, and his wave-dash is already in the top 5 or so distance wise (comparable to Marth and Mario), so he doesn't need any new mobility tricks. His bacon could gain more control/flexibility in angles but anything too good would be obscene. I do wish that it was possible to air dodge from grounded up-b so I could do cool up-b wavelands on top platforms though.

G&W airdodging after up-B was in 1.0 IIRC and then it got removed for 2.0. Why they decided to let Sonic keep his for so long is a mystery to me (but it's gone now so all is right in that regard). I'd support them both getting the ability to airdodge out of their grounded up-Bs.

 

[Deleted member]

not only would i like to see fox nerfed out of the top 1 position, i'd like to see him nerfed to mid-tier like marth was. I want to see fox at #23 on the tier list. i think the public feedback would tell us a lot more about the character than the summation of the last year has.

 

[DMG]

I had an idea for Fox that was highly rated and accepted by the community.

You start, and finish, by replacing Fox with a Penguin named Carl™.

 

[Saproling]

Im for it.

 

[Terotrous]

I had an idea for Fox that was highly rated and accepted by the community.

You start, and finish, by replacing Fox with a Penguin named Carl™.

That would just make him even more OP. Everyone knows Penguins are unbeatable.

 

[DMG]

I see Batman beat up Penguin all the time, you're a liar