Tier List Speculation

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

inb4 "nerf rob" "nerf diddy" "nerf gnw" "nerf fox more" "buff puff" "gnw is bottom five"

 

[Kipcom]

So someone is finally exposing Game & Watch at a national, I see.

Regardless, let's not pretend like MrLz isn't an amazing Game & Watch player, regardless of if we want to say GnW is broken or not.

No need to insult the kid over his victories.

 

[TimeMuffinPhD]

I know a lot of people are suggesting several characters in the top 8 of Paragon are dumb (primarily GnW). But I'm struggling as how to decide whether a character is broken? Like what draws you to that conclusion? Breaking laws within the design philosophy?

 

[MrLul]

Oracle do airdash 24.7 and aerial everytime he come down is easy punish.

 

[trash?]

I know a lot of people are suggesting several characters in the top 8 of Paragon are dumb (primarily GnW). But I'm struggling as how to decide whether a character is broken? Like what draws you to that conclusion? Breaking laws within the design philosophy?

they won a major, therefore they're broken and need fixing now because someone had the audacity to learn their character's quirks

I've seen every PM major since MELEE-FC in 2012, and I've been on smashboards during it. this happens. every single time. someone you might have not heard of before wins with [cool new thing/character here], suddenly they go right to the top of the tier list and inevitably get nerfed to hell and back as a result. you'd think people might hold some self-awareness over it, but nope.

go look back at the posts in this very thread, after every major, and tell me I'm wrong

 

[Boiko]

lol

shoutout to stereokidd getting top 8 and boiko getting top 32 almost beating m2k

I got 13th, but whatevz.

Ness is still weak. LOL. I had some insane plays.

 

[TimeMuffinPhD]

they won a major, therefore they're broken and need fixing now because someone had the audacity to learn their character's quirks

I've seen every PM major since MELEE-FC in 2012, and I've been on smashboards during it. this happens. every single time. someone you might have not heard of before wins with [cool new thing/character here], suddenly they go right to the top of the tier list and inevitably get nerfed to hell and back as a result. you'd think people might hold some self-awareness over it, but nope.

go look back at the posts in this very thread, after every major, and tell me I'm wrong

Yeah that seems to be the general approach. Maybe they need to re-evaluate that.

 

[PlateProp]

Even if gnw did win a major we've known for a while that gnw is dumb, there's a general consensus in this thread on that even before this happened

 

[Life]

It's more like we can't tell if GnW is a problem because his hitboxes don't last as long as their animations.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

Even if gnw did win a major we've known for a while that gnw is dumb, there's a general consensus in this thread on that even before this happened

actually not it's just a bunch of people being annoyed with his animations

like this thread has no general consensus on anything

 

[MudkipUniverse]

I think i was kind of mad lol. Mr Lz is still a great player but I think he got a bit carried. He's probably been playing for like a year and he's already placing this high.

and ness is still bad, boiko DID make insane plays and still lost to m2k (who wasn't playing good).

 

[TimeMuffinPhD]

actually not it's just a bunch of people being annoyed with his animations

like this thread has no general consensus on anything

I would just like to see a detailed reason as to why he's so good. Not just a general this mad black blip blop man is broken af.

 

[Farquaad]

LZ def not being "carried," he's a great player, but man, his animations and up B mechanics are flat out dumb

 

[MLGF]

Everyone whining about G&W
And I'm just goin' "Man, Crouch Canceling is dumb"

 

[Kipcom]

Everyone whining about G&W
And I'm just goin' "Man, Crouch Canceling is dumb"

Nah man, CC into move that combos at low percents and kills off the top at high percents is fiiiine.

 

[NWRL]

they won a major, therefore they're broken and need fixing now because someone had the audacity to learn their character's quirks

I've seen every PM major since MELEE-FC in 2012, and I've been on smashboards during it. this happens. every single time. someone you might have not heard of before wins with [cool new thing/character here], suddenly they go right to the top of the tier list and inevitably get nerfed to hell and back as a result. you'd think people might hold some self-awareness over it, but nope.

go look back at the posts in this very thread, after every major, and tell me I'm wrong

GnW is an affront to 3D gaming

**** GnW

 

[Boiko]

I think i was kind of mad lol. Mr Lz is still a great player but I think he got a bit carried. He's probably been playing for like a year and he's already placing this high.

and ness is still bad, boiko DID make insane plays and still lost to m2k (who wasn't playing good).

M2k laser camped me. Everything else he did was fine. My best play was against hero of time making a three stock comeback game three.

 

[NWRL]

M2k laser camped me. Everything else he did was fine. My best play was against hero of time making a three stock comeback game three.

You and StereoKiDD played amazingly. StereoKiDD showed up at my locals and cleaned house for the past few months so I've seen his Ness firsthand

 

[MudkipUniverse]

project m is dead

also new top 5:
fox
wolf
falco
g&w
rob

i really just put g&w there because I'm mad, rob is better

 

[Kipcom]

MrLz won the biggest PM tournament of all time.


Good stuff MrLz. Play me on the Ladder again in the future you nerd.

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

project m is dead

also new top 5:
fox
wolf
falco
g&w
rob

i really just put g&w there because I'm mad, rob is better

How is diddy not up there? lol. Id put diddy in place of wolf or maybe falco.

 

[Ningildo]

Idk about you but the G&W salt is delicious.

I'd honestly attribute it more to MU inexperience or not being used to a certain playstyle of a character, rather then "this one player won the major with character x, x is broke!". Of course people could point out WHAT is so broken about G&W and start a discussion about that, but it'll probably devolve into name calling and ignoring valid points.

 

[Kipcom]

Idk about you but the G&W salt is delicious.

I'd honestly attribute it more to MU inexperience or not being used to a certain playstyle of a character, rather then "this one player won the major with character x, x is broke!". Of course people could point out WHAT is so broken about G&W and start a discussion about that, but it'll probably devolve into name calling and ignoring valid points.

Or you could just read some of the older pages where people go in depth on their problems with the character (that's still relevant).

 

[KiteAF]

Idk about you but the G&W salt is delicious.

I'd honestly attribute it more to MU inexperience or not being used to a certain playstyle of a character, rather then "this one player won the major with character x, x is broke!". Of course people could point out WHAT is so broken about G&W and start a discussion about that, but it'll probably devolve into name calling and ignoring valid points.

I thought that that Lunchables and Oracle at least had significant GnW experience.

 

[Diego Brando]

I thought that that Lunchables and Oracle at least had significant GnW experience.

They both play the second best GnW regularly, and Lunchables teams with him a ton. Significant experience is almost understating it.

 

[Jacob29]

I'd prefer other chars were brought up to GnW than GnW being nerfed.

I'd imagine his balance is pretty fragile tbh...

 

[KiteAF]

GnW's up b combos out of throw and out of shield just seemed too easy. I mean, they worked on Jiggs, Luigi, and Wario- some of the floatiest characters in the game, while also working on Falcon and Fox- some of the fastest fallers. Followups seem guaranteed at virtually any percent regardless of di.

The only balance changes I think he needs are new animations for his dtilt and throws, and no jump out of up-b. If the throws had different animations people would be able to consistently di them instead of guessing and it'd make punishing his d tilt much more doable. Most of the other characters who could jump out of up b lost it too so it seems like that nerf would be appropriate design wise. In addition to his combos, it makes his recovery pretty crazy. Didn't really see anyone getting much from taking the edge vs GnW on the stream. They kind of just let him back every time.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

they won a major, therefore they're broken and need fixing now because someone had the audacity to learn their character's quirks

I've seen every PM major since MELEE-FC in 2012, and I've been on smashboards during it. this happens. every single time. someone you might have not heard of before wins with [cool new thing/character here], suddenly they go right to the top of the tier list and inevitably get nerfed to hell and back as a result. you'd think people might hold some self-awareness over it, but nope.

go look back at the posts in this very thread, after every major, and tell me I'm wrong

I've been following this game since it was brawl+ with wave dashing, and I've been saying that g&w jump out of up b has been unfitting ever since it's inception. I know people have a tendency to jump the gun every time someone wins in a pm tournament, but that doesn't invalidate some people's claims, as long as it's a thoughtful opinion worded respectfully it's worth listening too. When I watched the sets with that g&w, I was never impressed nor did I ever think he made a thoughtful interaction with his opponent. He knew his punish game and got away with it, essentially knowing how to press buttons correctly, and his opponents didn't know how to deal with it.

 

[jtm94]

For facing Dakpo a lot. Oracle had some really questionable DI.

You can remove both fthrow and backthrow from GnW and it doesn't change anything. Those mixups aren't worth it when you can just upthrow. You can also not DI then SDI out of follow ups. The only time you cannot escape UpB follow ups with DI is if he comes from an angle and MrLz wasn't exploiting that, he was simply UpBing into people that were too busy mashing jump or attack to DI.


Oracle also using Wario and losing the set because he did UpB instead of DownB. Good thing Upthrow uair KOs GnW at 88% and uthrow to waft is not just easy, but expected. You know what? Let's nerf Fox some more.

MrLz is obviously carried by his character. Look at Dakpo and Nintendude, they basically won with GnW too. Completely take away all credit from winning the biggest PM event and immediately bring up past complaints. Let's also act like Plup doesn't beat MrLz on a regular basis because he knows the MU. MrLz played completely out of his mind and he absolutely deserved every victory that he got. This jumping on nerf wagon mentality is extremely disheartening in the wake of what was the best PM tourney to date, in terms of both size and content.

Glad to see Ness mains doing well. It's like seeing people run a marathon with no legs. You have my utmost sympathy.

 

[foxygrandpa]

Maybe the kid is just really good at this game? I mean, he makes smart, consistent decisions in neutral and was clearly adapting through sets. Was he reliant on his punish game? Obviously, but wario's uthrow to up air and rob's dthrow to anything is also pretty stagnant.
When he does well with G&W it must be that the characters obviously broken, but when people make top 8 with ness or link, theyre just really good players? I dont understand.
Not to say that I don't think G&W could stand a couple of changes (jump from up b has been dumb for a while) but honestly I think people are overreacting. He's clearly a top character, but it's not like a 3.0 character where a lot of the cast cant touch him. Rob is also pretty questionable, especially his throw game. If Rob had won instead, people probably wouldve complained about him. In fact, people would have pretty much complained about whatever character won.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

That's such a cop out, just because fox has something ridiculous doesn't validate that particular questionable trait that x character in question has, and shares with fox. It's like a child trying to validate his wrong doings by saying another kid did the same thing and got away with it, it simply doesn't change that what the first child did was wrong, nor does it make what the second child got away with right either.

 

[SunJester]

Just putting this out there. We can discuss changes you would like to G+W with out trying to invalidate the amazing play Mr Lz exhibited today.

Putting down the biggest victory of this kid's life to settle your own petty feelings isn't going to accomplish anything. Mr Lz played great, G+W might need some nerfs/tweeks, we can discuss that, but don't put down his accomplishment.

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

Honestly the only dumb things that GnW really has is his down air having that grounded hitbox and being unpunishable on shield unless you have a marth-esque grab range/ranged oos option (maybe), his throw animations being all the same, and his jump from up b. I don't think he really needs anything else. His hitboxes and moves are weird, but it just requires some more research and character knowledge to get around.

Btw I dont mind moves that are safe on shield. I only mention dair because he can escape combos from up b and come back down safely with dair

IF changes need to be made, these should be it. Although i dont think gnw should really be touched. Nothing wrong wit having dumb things or good options.

 

[Jacob29]

GnW's up b combos out of throw and out of shield just seemed too easy. I mean, they worked on Jiggs, Luigi, and Wario- some of the floatiest characters in the game, while also working on Falcon and Fox- some of the fastest fallers. Followups seem guaranteed at virtually any percent regardless of di.

The only balance changes I think he needs are new animations for his dtilt and throws, and no jump out of up-b. If the throws had different animations people would be able to consistently di them instead of guessing and it'd make punishing his d tilt much more doable. Most of the other characters who could jump out of up b lost it too so it seems like that nerf would be appropriate design wise. In addition to his combos, it makes his recovery pretty crazy. Didn't really see anyone getting much from taking the edge vs GnW on the stream. They kind of just let him back every time.

Afaik Up-b should only combo into a kill move on poor DI from GnWs throw mixups.

Granted you don't know which one he is gonna do but that's mixups for you m8o.

Honestly the only dumb things that GnW really has is his down air having that grounded hitbox and being unpunishable on shield unless you have a marth-esque grab range/ranged oos option (maybe), his throw animations being all the same, and his jump from up b. I don't think he really needs anything else. His hitboxes and moves are weird, but it just requires some more research and character knowledge to get around.

His throws having no animations are basically the exact same as Sheiks throw mixups.

Just putting this out there. We can discuss changes you would like to G+W with out trying to invalidate the amazing play Mr Lz exhibited today.

Putting down the biggest victory of this kid's life to settle your own petty feelings isn't going to accomplish anything. Mr Lz played great, G+W might need some nerfs/tweeks, we can discuss that, but don't put down his accomplishment.

I think this was suggested way back, but perhaps having his up-b not keep his 2nd jump if he up-bs from within the air would be a solid change for him.

 

[FreeGamer]

has G&W replaced fox as the S tier character yet

 

[SunJester]

Disclaimer: I suck at this game.

G+W changes.

All animations match hitboxes, and leave when hitboxes are over. (D-tilt for ex)

D-air: Landing hitbox changed, don't know how, maybe the angle changed so that it cant be followed up except for really bad DI. I'd like it more if this move reset the neutral

Throws have animation differences, sped up so its not absurdly easy to read (his throw is so slow if you could tell the differences in throws it'd be really easy to DI proper)


I think we need to do something about his Up-B. Its his B+B so I don't want it nerfed to oblivion, but I'd like to see it toned down at least a bit.

I do like the idea (initially) of him not being able to double jump if he uses his up-b in the air, if any G+W mains want to weigh in on that idea (or any of these) I think we could start a healthy discussion.

 

[Rᴏb]

We're all aware of the various problems G&W presents (ambiguous animations, bucket braking), but I feel like his upb is the only one worth talking about at this point. The main problem people have with G&W's upb is that it allows him to retain his jump. The most apparent way to normalize this is to have aerial upb's burn the jump and grounded upb's retain it (similar to how Mewtwo works).

My question to you guys is in what way would you compensate G&W for taking such a big hit to his punish game, recovery, and stalling abilities? It's pretty obvious that G&W is currently somewhere in the high tier and ideally I'd like him to stay there; we don't want another Bowser-like situation of a character getting nerfs and zero compensation. I feel like compensating G&W for the potential (likely) upb change is something that is never discussed, so I'd really like to hear some suggestions from the people complaining here.

EDIT: An alternative change to upb that may be worth considering is a simple reduction in height; this would allow G&W's game plan to feel relatively the same while also reducing the general effectiveness of his ability to punish. I also think it'd be easier to compensate for...

 

[FreeGamer]

Misleading animations, saving his double jump through Fire, and maaaaaaybe D-Air's landing hit are the only things worth complaining about. Everything else is awwwwwwright.

 

[SunJester]

Perhaps a better initial dash speed and a weight increase would be sufficient to make up for his up-B nerf?

The ability to live longer plus a better dash dance?

Edit: To be honest I think a lot of G+W's problems are similar to what people felt about Ike earlier this year. I mean, Ike seemed absurdly good and now his one of his best players didn't make it out of pools. I think more matchup experience might help, but I still agree with up-b tweeking + compensation.

 

[Kipcom]

I'm not sure what they could do to compensate for losing (or not so much losing, but weakening) some of his options.

Usually the good characters in PM that get nerfed get little to no compensation when getting nerfed, even if it means that the players of said character would have to change their particular habits or playstyles to get work done with the character (Just look at most of the 3.0 top tiers going into 3.5). Bringing up Bowser doesn't really make for a good point when people considered him bad before the nerfs in 3.6b, and then people felt that he was even worse. Of course when a bad character gets nerfed, compensation is expected. At least that's just how I see how PMDT handles high tier nerfs.

I don't think it's really a matter of what GnW gets in return for getting nerfed, but rather whether or not they'll take the nerfs too far. We've seen it with Pit back in 3.5, Zelda, Squirtle (imo), and a few other characters. Then again, I'm not going to pretend like I know how good or bad GnW would be in the next patch with certain nerfs.