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You know who's also a defensive character? DDD. And he had the worst shield in the game and still a terrible spot dodge.
It is.
What's wrong with his throws? Besides having a spacie chaingrab that all the swordies seem to share, his dthrow is slow enough to be fairly reactable, and good DI makes it much tougher to follow up on (I believe); fthrow QD regrab isn't that bad because it takes lots of distance and you can DI it (dunno how much of the cast can/to what extent); and bthrow... I don't really know anything about bthrow actually. He has good throws, but I don't think he really has throws that are really overwhelming. Nothing like Melee Sheik dthrow, or even like Ganon/Mario dthrow.
What would you call him then? A character that is very tough to tech chase because of his tech roll, the best ledge dash in the game to avoid pressure on ledge, one of the best out of shield options to avoid shield pressure situations, a good projectile that can be used to wall opponents a bit, a pretty good recovery, being a floaty with a frame 3 gtfo aerial to avoid combos.
While that's true, he doesn't need to shield grab. And he still can for certain moves or if he power shields, but usually the better options out of shield for him are up b (which is only possible within shield grab range but is the better choice I find at higher percents), nair (if pressured from above or very close to him)/fair/dair/upsmash, which reward much more and can be done even with push back due to low traction.
Kirby being good against Ike always makes me laugh. He's considered one of the weaker of the cast overall but he has the traits that really muck up Ike.
Using character stats to decide tiers doesn't work either. What you see on paper often doesn't apply in reality. So where do we go? How do we decide tiers? Answer: Experience. Use everything you know about the game, everything you heard from other people, everything you saw and experienced, including results. Then you can make your own conclusion. That may not be completely accurate either, but it's the best way. I don't think anyone has come close to making an accurate tier list yet, because there are so many factors that go into it and so many things we don't know, everyone is gonna see it differently.
Nobody's going to say "oh no GnW upB's hitbox got moved to frame 3 he's bad now" if that's what you're asking. However, a tier list is basically a ranking of which characters are most likely to win a tournament (that's how I see it anyway, there are a few different definitions people use), and having moves with good frame data is a positive quality that makes a character stronger, so...
I've always heard a tier list describes as a ranking by matchup spread, though I suppose these could go hand in hand :/
Sure it does. If there's a discrepancy between theory and practice, it means that either your model or your test is flawed. Maybe both. The trick is identifying which it is and adjusting as necessary. That's where experience comes into play, so long as you're capable of analyzing it properly.
This is how I usually view tier lists. How hard do I have to work to be successful with x character. MU spreads do have some part in this too.
You can't analyze a character's potential without seeing it's results... U can look at frame data and statistics all you want but that's not gonna dictate what happens in a match.
Shoutouts to fighting Diddies, and Foxes. I hope Stereo get get this man again! SO hyped for my boy. Also Boiko was SOOOOO CLOSE!
Numbers are no small part of what dictates the course of a match. A match is, at its core, a test of how each of you can apply those numbers to work in your favor.
You've got that backwards. There is only one right way, the problem is that everyone's understanding of it is flawed/incomplete. It's a problem that's somewhat related to the concept of donkeyspace, which is also a very relevant consideration in fighting games. Nobody plays 100% optimally due to limitations in understanding and reaction time, so part of truly optimized play is figuring out how to exploit your opponent's tendencies without allowing them to do the same in return.
> 5 Years from now
