steelguttey
mei is bei
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2014
- Messages
- 1,674
cus shes high tier? lmao
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Tier List Speculation
- Thread starter OkamiBW
- Start date
AssTAStic_ACA
Smash Apprentice
Link isnt bad....Tink is just better. Links only real problem is being combo food.
jtm94
Smash Lord
Link has that weight though. I've been on various sides of the coin on this one. From thinking Link is garbage, to he's alright. If he stayed how he was he wouldn't have had a place in this version. He doesn't have mobility, but at least he has projectiles, b reverse, wavebounce, moonwalk, dacus, etc to augment movement a bit. A lot of his stuff loses to CC, and his grab is awful while also being duckable by short characters. He can combo Fox forever though when he gets in. It just turns into dash attack the MU. No matter what though his movement isn't amazing regardless.
People underrate how important movement is in a game based around some form of it and favorable hitboxes. I find it hilarious when people try to tell me Zelda is amazing or people get salty and they say things like Zelda beats Falcon, Zelda beats Sonic just because they predictably place themselves into kicks.
People underrate how important movement is in a game based around some form of it and favorable hitboxes. I find it hilarious when people try to tell me Zelda is amazing or people get salty and they say things like Zelda beats Falcon, Zelda beats Sonic just because they predictably place themselves into kicks.
D e l t a
That one guy who does the thing with a camera.
Hi
Okay so combos in 3.5 are interesting with Lucas. Extra multipliers were a bit overdone but somewhat needed. I dislike the hit lag on mag, but whatever... #salt
The extra SDI on Nair was definitely needed. You could get a free followup with grab or magnet if the opponent was airborne. If it hit on shield, Nair was either frame positive on shield or something really safe like -2 at worst.
Dair's extra end lag doesn't really affect Lucas' combo game too terribly and you still can't SDI it that easily unless you're grounded. Even still, chase their DI/SDI and Lucas will still get the 3rd pop up hit or learn to be precise and hit with only the 3rd hit...
His Uair having more knockback is actually a plus and can combo some of the heavier / faster falling characters. Uair lacks decent hitstun, so if you're not a fast faller or heavy, chars like Marth can counter and Zelda/Luigi can attack / jump out for free.
Magnet is the biggest trouble when facing opponents with good DI & SDI. It can be CC'd by 99% of the cast and will only serve as good shield pressure. When they slide across the ground rather than being popped up and away, there's 0 followups Lucas can get off of magnet. Similarity, if the enemy DI's full behind Lucas or SDI's out of the knockback hit, there are 0 guaranteed followups. This leads more into reading their landing and punishing / starting a combo from there
As for Fair, the range is absolutely terrible now and something that did NOT need to be changed. Out of all 3.5 nerfs, Lucas is either the only (or one of the very few) characters that got a hitbox size nerf (like wtf PMBR?!). DI that up and behind Lucas and they can only followup with another weak hit Fair or Uair. Which, for those that didn't know, you want to also survival DI uair because the hitbox behind Lucas' head already sends you slight behind him. If you DI down and away, it's potential to set up for a strong hit Fair or other easy grounded combos / grab. Most things can be DI'd behind Lucas which makes fighting him somewhat easy since you're already holding that direction in neutral...
PKF has nearly half the hitstun, can be CC'd way past 90% and clanked by basically everything (essentially a better Luigi fireball). The jump part makes DJC PKF somewhat telegraphed and if you don't DJC PKF it's either slow when doing an aerial PKF or has a crap ton of startup & end lag on the ground (similar to standing Fox/Falco lasers). You can run up -> shield PKF and punish the end lag. Likewise, if you get hit by PKF, SDI down and shield / CC the next approach Lucas does, or air dodge / counter / aerial attack after getting hit. Most times I can never get a solid followup from PKF against smart players (granted they even get hit by PKF) due to the nerfs.
Dair's extra end lag doesn't really affect Lucas' combo game too terribly and you still can't SDI it that easily unless you're grounded. Even still, chase their DI/SDI and Lucas will still get the 3rd pop up hit or learn to be precise and hit with only the 3rd hit...
His Uair having more knockback is actually a plus and can combo some of the heavier / faster falling characters. Uair lacks decent hitstun, so if you're not a fast faller or heavy, chars like Marth can counter and Zelda/Luigi can attack / jump out for free.
Magnet is the biggest trouble when facing opponents with good DI & SDI. It can be CC'd by 99% of the cast and will only serve as good shield pressure. When they slide across the ground rather than being popped up and away, there's 0 followups Lucas can get off of magnet. Similarity, if the enemy DI's full behind Lucas or SDI's out of the knockback hit, there are 0 guaranteed followups. This leads more into reading their landing and punishing / starting a combo from there
As for Fair, the range is absolutely terrible now and something that did NOT need to be changed. Out of all 3.5 nerfs, Lucas is either the only (or one of the very few) characters that got a hitbox size nerf (like wtf PMBR?!). DI that up and behind Lucas and they can only followup with another weak hit Fair or Uair. Which, for those that didn't know, you want to also survival DI uair because the hitbox behind Lucas' head already sends you slight behind him. If you DI down and away, it's potential to set up for a strong hit Fair or other easy grounded combos / grab. Most things can be DI'd behind Lucas which makes fighting him somewhat easy since you're already holding that direction in neutral...
PKF has nearly half the hitstun, can be CC'd way past 90% and clanked by basically everything (essentially a better Luigi fireball). The jump part makes DJC PKF somewhat telegraphed and if you don't DJC PKF it's either slow when doing an aerial PKF or has a crap ton of startup & end lag on the ground (similar to standing Fox/Falco lasers). You can run up -> shield PKF and punish the end lag. Likewise, if you get hit by PKF, SDI down and shield / CC the next approach Lucas does, or air dodge / counter / aerial attack after getting hit. Most times I can never get a solid followup from PKF against smart players (granted they even get hit by PKF) due to the nerfs.
Basically the range diagonally up and away from Lucas' head is where he suffers to get clean hits & combos
Edit: Added spoiler cuz I didn't realize I wrote that much.. Lucas related posts get me going....
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robosteven
Smash Lord
a sex kick
instead of bomb arrows, make it a deku nut arrow.
Sounds scary
FreeGamer
Smash Ace
don't lie to me
Jinjo64
Smash Apprentice
My favorite thing about reading through this. Is that its really rare to find any talks or even a list of characters including Kirby. I feel like if something fun doesn't happen to him. He'll just kind of be forgotten. I've been trying to keep the Project m Kirby boards alive, but eh. At least there was a front page post about talking Kirby a day or so ago. :')
PlateProp
Smash Master
Dash attack
ChiePet
*~About That BASS.~*
We probably don't see that much Kirby talk since he's not played that much any more, although Chip from AZ is getting better so you might see some more Kirby talk around here in the future
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D e l t a
That one guy who does the thing with a camera.
Jinjo64
Smash Apprentice
When I look her up now and her recent matches. I mostly see Ness.
FreeGamer
Smash Ace
That's because he no longer has his 3.02 cheese to get people's attention with. He's underused as hell and has a good mix of strengths and weaknesses, but could probably use a buff to his neutral.
U just don't jump enough I bet
D e l t a
That one guy who does the thing with a camera.
That's funny because she mostly has been using Kirby at the recent tourneys we've gone to. I know she uses Ness online more than Kirby, oddly enough. She's still the best Kirby in MI, and I'd go as far to say the best PM Kirby in the U.S.
FreeGamer
Smash Ace
oh yeah? i bet i can jump higher than you
Jinjo64
Smash Apprentice
Possibly since grabbit and gnoisis quit kirby.
RedBeefBaron
Smash Journeyman
If Zelda is high tier than what matchups will she do better in than shiek? Seems like shiek could become kind of scary if certain bad matchups can be beat with down-b.
ChiePet
*~About That BASS.~*
uhhh ChuDat?
ChuDat still plays Kirby??
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Jinjo64
Smash Apprentice
Old news. last vid of his kirby was december.
ChiePet
*~About That BASS.~*
Jinjo64
Smash Apprentice
I'm just happy for the kirby discussion now. How do you guys think kirby places amongst the cast and his bad/good match ups are? Just curious.
How do you guys think kirby places amongst the cast and his bad/good match ups are? Just curious.
FreeGamer
Smash Ace
I'd put him dead center.
Hmm, I'd put him in lower mid tier. He's not the fastest character and his reach is pretty short plus he dies early. His upsides though are his multiple jumps which let him avoid alot of stuff and moves like bair,nair,fair gives him great gimping ability(although somewhat hindered since he can have a hard time getting certain characters offstage). Plus has a pretty decent recovery, as for matchups I don't know all of them but I imagine characters with long reach and fast attacks give him trouble because they can keep him out so the FE boys must be a night mare lol
D e l t a
That one guy who does the thing with a camera.
I'd agree with dead center. Most heavies / fast fallers like Ganon, Falcon, Roy, DK, etc get chewed alive by Utilt and spaced out Bair. Not to mention ducking under most attacks and being too tiny to hit at times.
Marth is the only real trouble out of the fire emblem cast. His hitboxes are fast and harder to CC as Kirby. Not to mention the speed and range that comes with Marth and Dtilt can safely poke Kirby especially while crouching, which is a big part of Kirby / Tetra's gameplay.
Kirby can duck when Ike goes to QuickDraw attack / JC grab and can read the jumps -> aerial attacks and punish. Tetra absolutely dominates Ike's recovery and is good at positioning Ike so that she gets ledge guards most times. Same goes for Roy, except he gets combo'd harder and is punished easier.
Falco can get bopped by Kirby and doesn't have too many solid answers to Kirby's duck / zone camping. It's more of a 'whoever can space the best or be the most patient' MU since lasers don't do much. Fox on the other hand either gets dominated or can body Kirby. It's more player dependent and how much they choose to camp. Ledge guarding for both sides in Kirby vs Fox/Falco is pretty free and combos can basically go 0-death.
As for vids of Tetra, the stream recorder from our 2 recent larger stacked tourneys- Equinox & SPAU4, sadly has poor internet connection and is taking a while to upload. As soon as there is video to share I'll link them for you all.
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D e l t a
That one guy who does the thing with a camera.
Yeee. One of, if not the best female smashers in the U.S. Also, a super funny crew mate.
What's the last big tourney ChuDat's even been at? I haven't seen him in bracket results for PM in forever, let alone playing Kirby
Lol no. I'm 100% sure Kirby wins. Tetra has played the MU against Doof's Ganon countless times and almost always wins. Ganon is simply not fast enough to land a hit on Kirby, grab and command grab will always whiff against duck, and his recovery gets eaten up by Kirby. The MU is somewhere around 60/40 Kirby's favor. @Tetraflora could probably expand more on that.
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steelguttey
mei is bei
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2014
- Messages
- 1,674
Warning Received
dude please keep double posting an infraction would make this thread real fun
FreeGamer
Smash Ace
Kirby doesn't beat Ganon, you say? Are you sure we're playing the same game?
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,560
