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Tier List Speculation
- Thread starter OkamiBW
- Start date
PlateProp
Smash Master
Squirtle doesnt have a kill throw. D throw only kills ifyou have REALLY bad di or you're at 140+%
Fortress
Smash Master
What? Luigi has Luigi's wavedash and he's not that good. Coincidentally, the dude is still better than Squirtle.
I don't get it.
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shairn
Your favorite anime is bad.
Squirtle kills fine
I'm not going to pretend my DI is flawless but fthrow fair is more reliable than a lot of characters' setups.
I'm not going to pretend my DI is flawless but fthrow fair is more reliable than a lot of characters' setups.
ELI-mination
Smash Champion
DAAAAAMMMMMMMMNNNNN SONNNNNNNNNNNNNN
Juushichi
sugoi ~ sugoi ~
@Umbreon really succinctly described how I feel playing against Sonic and Squirtle, lol. The difference in previous versions to this (for Sonic at least) is that I know that Sonic actually has to engage with me more than a few times before I get hit and basically don't get to play.
Squirtle does that, but is also small as **** so sometimes it's hard to get a hold of the little ******. When I do, it feels pretty good though. : )
Part of me is pretty skeptical of Sheik in top tier, much like how I feel about how most people feel about Sheik in Melee. I know that she's good, but idk it still feels like you have to know too much with her and adjust your ranges to catch so many things. And she doesn't have the recovery to support it. The Ganons and Bowsers and stuff HATE her, but idk they're not super relevant to begin with.
But man continuing on my train of engaging with characters. I wanna have a conversation about that ************ Wolf, man. I thought we left ___-canceled projectiles back in 3.02, but apparently we haven't quite learned our lesson yet. Every time I see a Wolf jump at me, shoot a stupid laser and AD backwards, I think of more elaborate ways to commit sudoku. Idk, people complain about Snake being a snore-fest to engage with and you die and get blown up or whatever...
but goddamn how many [insert x launcher here] -> upair times x -> side knee do I have to see before people notice? Wake up sheeple! Also wow that dair.
Squirtle does that, but is also small as **** so sometimes it's hard to get a hold of the little ******. When I do, it feels pretty good though. : )
Part of me is pretty skeptical of Sheik in top tier, much like how I feel about how most people feel about Sheik in Melee. I know that she's good, but idk it still feels like you have to know too much with her and adjust your ranges to catch so many things. And she doesn't have the recovery to support it. The Ganons and Bowsers and stuff HATE her, but idk they're not super relevant to begin with.
But man continuing on my train of engaging with characters. I wanna have a conversation about that ************ Wolf, man. I thought we left ___-canceled projectiles back in 3.02, but apparently we haven't quite learned our lesson yet. Every time I see a Wolf jump at me, shoot a stupid laser and AD backwards, I think of more elaborate ways to commit sudoku. Idk, people complain about Snake being a snore-fest to engage with and you die and get blown up or whatever...
but goddamn how many [insert x launcher here] -> upair times x -> side knee do I have to see before people notice? Wake up sheeple! Also wow that dair.
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D
Deleted member
Guest
Roy is EASILY top tier in this game. I also don't see how snake is top tier when he has a pretty crappy neutral game compared to other characters due to his sluggish mobility. He doesn't even have his incredibly OP punish game anymore lol.
D
Deleted member
Guest
a few things-
snake is blatantly not top tier with that neutral game, just no
roy is blatantly top tier this version
id have a very hard time believing that wolf is anything but tops as well
sheik is likely tops but she has a much harder time at it because her game plan has to change from match to match and its a lot of a burden on the sheik player to change your focus over and over in different matchups through multiple rounds
part of why fox is so stupid is that hes the exact opponent and can roll the same **** all day regardless of his opponents or stages
imo top tier is fox wolf sheik roy atm, i dont see anyone being close to them, but of those i would put fox as #1 and sheik as #4
just imo
snake is blatantly not top tier with that neutral game, just no
roy is blatantly top tier this version
id have a very hard time believing that wolf is anything but tops as well
sheik is likely tops but she has a much harder time at it because her game plan has to change from match to match and its a lot of a burden on the sheik player to change your focus over and over in different matchups through multiple rounds
part of why fox is so stupid is that hes the exact opponent and can roll the same **** all day regardless of his opponents or stages
imo top tier is fox wolf sheik roy atm, i dont see anyone being close to them, but of those i would put fox as #1 and sheik as #4
just imo
GabPR
Smash Lord
I can say this would be Sanics main weakness. Ever fought a good kirby or luigy? (Even a decent one) its not imposible but you have to be 5 times more patient and dem nair combo breakers and bairs can make any good day a relatively bad one.
Juushichi
sugoi ~ sugoi ~
Falco -> Sheik?
Where do you have him at, like #5... #6? worse? I'm pretty interested in your appraisal of the character.
--- Refinement of previous list:
Top: Fox, Falco(?), Wolf, Roy
High: Samus, TL, ROB, Sheik, Yoshi, Ike, Snake, Peach, Falcon, Lucario
U. Mid: Diddy, Mario, ZSS, Mewtwo, Marth, Wario, Sonic, DDD, MK, Lucas, Luigi
L. Mid: GnW, Charizard, Ness, Ganondorf, Kirby, Link, Pikachu, Pit, Jigglypuff, DK, Ivysaur, Zelda
Low: Squirtle, Bowser
Need Fixed: Ice Climbers (somewhere in the Mids when fixed), Olimar (???)
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steelguttey
mei is bei
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2014
- Messages
- 1,674
but its with captains air speed.
EDIT: also squirtle is one of the best tech chasers in the game. shellshifting by itself can cover almost all of your options.
and he has kill options. fair, usmash, dthrow and up b are all p reliable
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PlateProp
Smash Master
That's 3.02 footage. It's way easier to DI fair now. You can literally DI this move so that you're sent straight up so it doesnt kill unless they **** up or you get them at higher percents
Squirtle's only move that's generally guaranteed to kill at about 100ish is usmash
Srsly, having to get people to above 120% for most of your solid kills is bad kill options.
shairn
Your favorite anime is bad.
Uh, how many characters kill guaranteed below 120%? Even Fox has to wait until 100-ish with usmash.
EDIT: Changelog says nothing about Squirtle's fair changing from 3.02 to 3.5. His only aerial that got tweaked was his dair.
EDIT: Changelog says nothing about Squirtle's fair changing from 3.02 to 3.5. His only aerial that got tweaked was his dair.
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D
Deleted member
Guest
like falco is still top 10 material but i think he's the worst of the spacies currently. the new top tiers are very ground movement based and lasers arent nearly as good as they are in melee for several reasons (similar to why marth isn't as good actually, same reasons). falco is also increasingly dependent on landing shines for conversions but that's just really hard atm when your top charas are like fox roy wolf etc. i would put sheik above falco even if sheik didn't obliterate half the cast for free which she totally does.
Player -0
Smash Hero
The D-Throw/F-Throw -> Fair mixup though. And then if they DI out for the Fair quick hydroplane Up-Smash.
I know this much, squirtles won't have much success until his mains start edgeguarding like melee sheik.. like his offstage game is stupid good and I never see it being used in Squirtle matches. Not to mention he can shell sling out to the stage border, dj bair and still make it back. This is part of the reason that I see the Ganon mu as even. I'd have to try really hard to allow a ganon to recover after getting him off stage. It's almost brain dead.
Rizner
Smash Ace
What are the reasons for lasers not being as good? Just that other characters have better movement options?
Stages are bigger, most characters are faster than Melee characters. You can jump around the lasers so you can't get pinned down now, basically.
When I read this I imagined an article on one of those crappy sites that's like "This Sheik main found ONE WEIRD trick to being top tier. Ganons and Bowsers hate her!".
And then the content of the article is just ten pictures of the Z button.
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D
Deleted member
Guest
bigger stages, stronger counterpicks, higher opportunity cost of forfeiting stage because the cast is more potent at aggression, much less reward, etc etc etc, it adds up. lasers are still good but they're not the "always win neutral forever" that they were in melee
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,550
Doctor's HATE him! Secret to anti-aging revealed!
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shairn
Your favorite anime is bad.
I see you're an adherent to the idea of male Sheik
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,550
I don't care either way but she's officially female so yeah lol
shairn
Your favorite anime is bad.
If Sheik can't breed then why are Sheik mains so common
Checkmate atheists
Foo
Smash Lord
Clearly the real question here is whether Sheik has 23 or 24 ribs.
Vashimus
Smash Master
Well at least Juushichi still thinks Peach is high, and that makes me happy.
D-throw > DACUS nets kills super early for her against most of the cast. It's one of her biggest buffs from Melee and people definitely need to use it more.
D-throw > DACUS nets kills super early for her against most of the cast. It's one of her biggest buffs from Melee and people definitely need to use it more.
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PsionicSabreur
Smash Journeyman
I agree that Roy is good, just not sure if I'm buying him being on effectively spacie-level. Particular matchups/stages in general just seem to get so much uglier for him.
Considering that, right off the bat he has to worry about getting camped makes me question the notion that he could be truly dominant on the same level.
Considering that, right off the bat he has to worry about getting camped makes me question the notion that he could be truly dominant on the same level.
Why is this turning into the PMS thread...?
I still think giving a match up spread for your main (with explanations) is far better then giving a list with 30+ other characters that you will likely have no idea about regarding how they play and cause a discussion about misconceptions, "lol, you don't know [character]" and whatnot. Then, one can check how good a character's MU spread is and work from there to make a tier list. But that's just me.
I still think giving a match up spread for your main (with explanations) is far better then giving a list with 30+ other characters that you will likely have no idea about regarding how they play and cause a discussion about misconceptions, "lol, you don't know [character]" and whatnot. Then, one can check how good a character's MU spread is and work from there to make a tier list. But that's just me.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,550
It doesn't work against DI behind.
shairn
Your favorite anime is bad.
Technically the matchup chart option is the most efficient, but then... you have to chart over 800 individual matchups in a way everybody's comfortable with.
EDIT: And by the time you're halfway done 4.0 is out lmao
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Couldn't you just walk or run Usmash?
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,550
Peach isn't that fast lol. Don't you think Armada would be doing that in Melee if it were a thing? D-throw matches Melee in 3.5.
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DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
It sends at too low an angle