Tier List Speculation

[Paradoxium]

Jesus Christ you people are confusing me, I have no idea who does or doesn't get a dacus.

Just answer this one question, will Pikachu get a Dacus? Because that's all I care about.

 

[JOE!]

As I understand it:

Everybody now has the ability to DACUS, as in they can cancel Dash Attack with an up Smash. However, not everybody's DACUS is worth anything compared to say, Running/JC Usmash, due to both their physics and their dash attack's phsyics.

 

[mimgrim]

All I want to know is if Sheik gets a worthwhile DACUS with this. ;-;

 

[nimigoha]

As I understand it:

Everybody now has the ability to DACUS, as in they can cancel Dash Attack with an up Smash. However, not everybody's DACUS is worth anything compared to say, Running/JC Usmash, due to both their physics and their dash attack's phsyics.

I don't think I've seen a PMDT answer on Diddy Kong, Donkey Kong, and Kirby, as their Dash Attacks are coded differently so they can go off the ledge.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

What I'm curious about is not if more characters can Dacus, but if more characters will be capable of Gattling attacks.

 

[yogurtgun1245]

I don't think I've seen a PMDT answer on Diddy Kong, Donkey Kong, and Kirby, as their Dash Attacks are coded differently so they can go off the ledge.

They won't have a DACUS. http://www.reddit.com/r/SSBPM/comments/2k4thz/project_m_35_blogpost_8_various_system_changes/cli99v2

 

[Frost | Odds]

All I want to know is if Sheik gets a worthwhile DACUS with this. ;-;

I'd imagine that she does -- her boost grab is the best in the game by far iirc because she gets so much momentum from her dash attack; I don't see why the same wouldn't apply to her dacus.

 

[Player -0]

If the dash attack accelerates early in the move and with other random factors (I think) then the DACUS will go farther.

 

[trash?]

a DACUS' timing and technical ability is no longer based on a character's jumpsquat time, but is instead a universal 2-frame window. things like off-stage ability still nullifies a DACUS working at all, and characters whose jumpsquat time was too low to use it before can use it now, but otherwise all that's happened is that the tech is mostly consistent across the cast

...I think. er. hm

 

[InfinityCollision]

Since this evidently still needs to be clarified...

Characters that will gain the ability to cancel their dash attack into an usmash: Fox/ICs/Lucario/MK/Pikachu/Samus/Sheik/Sonic/Toon Link

Characters that will gain 1 additional frame in which to input the usmash and now have the option to use the grab input for usmash: C. Falcon/Charizard/G&W/Luigi/Mario/Marth/Ness/Olimar/Roy/Squirtle/Wolf/ZSS

Characters that will gain 1 additional frame in which to use the grab input for an usmash, no change for using attack: Falco/Ike/Ivysaur/Jigglypuff/Lucas/Mewtwo/Peach/Pit/ROB/Snake/Wario/Yoshi/Zelda

Characters that experience no change if using the grab input to usmash, lose 1 frame if using attack: DDD/Ganon/Link

Characters that are Bowser: Bowser

Characters that I guess can't DACUS regardless because reasons: Kirby (3 frame jumpsquat), Diddy (4), DK (5)

If you're in the first group, you might get some amount of additional distance via a DACUS. You also might not. Everyone else, if you don't have a DACUS that actually goes any significant distance then you're probably not going to see any changes from this.

 

[Badge]

Characters that experience no change if using the grab input to usmash, lose 1 frame if using attack: DDD/Ganon/Link

The length of the timing window doesn't change (to clarify: if using a grab), but the timing of those DACUSes will be one frame earlier than currently when using a grab input. That also means that Ganon (changes to his DA notwithstanding) will only have a 1-frame window to properly DACUS with grab now, as the first UpSmash-cancelable frame of his DA doesn't give nearly as much momentum as the second (and third).

 

[InfinityCollision]

Pretty sure you're wrong on that. Those 3 characters currently have a 3 frame window to input the usmash with the attack button and a 2 frame window using grab. Since the window will be 2 frames universally for both inputs per the PMDT blog post, they lose one frame if they're currently using the attack button for the usmash.

As far as input timing and distances, dunno. They didn't say anything regarding that.

 

[1FD]

All of this would be pretty cool, actually. Teleport working like ROB's up-b would be an interesting change. Would be nice if jab hit short characters/actually worked as a jab reset on more than half the cast too.


It's definitely underutilized. His second strongest option for launching horizontally in the air sans Shadow Ball (the other being sweetspot bair but the sweetspot's at the base, not the tip) and the angle is great. It's got some other neat applications too.

Again, this for sure. ROB up-b function added to Mewtwo up-b sounds so balanced my mind meltaiziiiiinnnngzzz ty drinkingfood

I don't know the stats on it but down b has some kind of weird set kb thing going on, so it's actually a harder hit than fully charged shadow ball (and a better ko angle) until like 40% or so and better than sweetspot Bair until like 60% at LEAST

That means you can hover uair into down b (which has huge range is fast and some sweet stall/positioning properties to use it accurately with style/tp into it even but not usually needed if ever) to finish combos pre-death % for kills without having shadowball against basically anyone who gets combod by Uair chains, which is nearly everyone.

instant HC uairs on the ground are his best neutral option outside of TPHoverBallz too, as far as I can tell anyway

 

[Badge]

Pretty sure you're wrong on that. Those 3 characters currently have a 3 frame window to input the usmash with the attack button and a 2 frame window using grab. Since the window will be 2 frames universally for both inputs per the PMDT blog post, they lose one frame if they're currently using the attack button for the usmash.

As far as input timing and distances, dunno. They didn't say anything regarding that.

I didn't want to say that their window doesn't get smaller when using attack, I was only talking about DACUS using grab inputs. (I can see how it could be misinterpreted, though, I could have been more clear.)
They didn't explicitely say anything about timings that I read, but I'd be surprised if the window changed for the characters with a 2 frame window (and subsequently didn't change for 3-framers using grab inputs). That would completely mess up DACUS timings, maybe make certain DACUSes lose/gain lots of distance etc. If that's the case, then much more than implied changed, anyway.

 

[Soft Serve]

Again, this for sure. ROB up-b function added to Mewtwo up-b sounds so balanced my mind meltaiziiiiinnnngzzz ty drinkingfood

I don't know the stats on it but down b has some kind of weird set kb thing going on, so it's actually a harder hit than fully charged shadow ball (and a better ko angle) until like 40% or so and better than sweetspot Bair until like 60% at LEAST

That means you can hover uair into down b (which has huge range is fast and some sweet stall/positioning properties to use it accurately with style/tp into it even but not usually needed if ever) to finish combos pre-death % for kills without having shadowball against basically anyone who gets combod by Uair chains, which is nearly everyone.

instant HC uairs on the ground are his best neutral option outside of TPHoverBallz too, as far as I can tell anyway

I think it's funny how you always go crazy about down b as a combo ender and people still don't do it. It was a decent option in melee, SD remix it works just as well, even in the reveal video where they have the tas combos, two of them are ended with down b, but m2 has easier/more apperant options that he doesn't need to develop past to be effective so down b is rarely used.

 

[Frost | Odds]

My ex-roommate ended combos with down-b all the goddamn time. Playing against that is indeed a rough life.

 

[Soft Serve]

Speaking of ending combos, I have a question for the thread: what's the gripe with kill throws about? Generally if you're dieing to kill throws, than you are at a much higher percent which implies your opponent wasn't ending combos optimally. Most of the characters with kill throws that get complained about (m2, lucas, diddy) have much better options to end stocks eariler through a combo or edgeguards, so if you are dieing to mostly kill throws you should be taking advantage of the fact your opponent is giving you more chances to live for more time.
if part of the problem that the throws can kill eariler than the other options on floating characters I can see it. I don't remember specific percents.
I don't see a problem with kill throws as a whole because they are a less optimal way to end stocks. Unless you can end your hit confirm with a grab or a reset into tech chase/mixup grab they almost always require a different hit confirm from the one (s) that wracked up the damage.

 

[Frost | Odds]

There aren't too many kill throws in the game in general imo, but there are a few questionable kill setups from throws, which is I think what most of the griping is really about. Pit dthrow, Toon Link dthrow (tough to dispute that this one is balanced, though), zelda,Kirby,Ivy throws at various %'s on various characters, etc.

Once again, though, it seems like most of the people complaining are coming from Melee backgrounds, and seem to be conveniently forgetting about the setups from Sheik/Fox/Falcon/Marth/Peach's throws. There are a few that bear looking at imo, but the problem is often overstated.

 

[Ripple]

People don't have a problem with kill throws in general. They have a problem when they kill earlier than what is "accepted" as what a kill %should be.

People don't complain about DDD's b-throw killing because it kills around like 160s.

People complain about Lucas' because it kills around 130 regardless of stage position

 

[Deleted member]

Lucas happens to have a D throw that you cannot DI out of and his up throw kills at earlier %s than mewtwos up throw
Yeah... ok

 

[nimigoha]

Lucas happens to have a D throw that you cannot DI out of and his up throw kills at earlier %s than mewtwos up throw
Yeah... ok

Just played with this. Lucas Uthrow no DI on FD killed Mario at 102% (when grabbed).

Mewtwo was 103%.

Also Lucas's Dthrow is easy to DI behind him, and the followup can be impossible depending on the character. But it's a good setup move. I wouldn't be surprised if its KBG is increased in 3.5.

Kill throws or throw>kill setups are tricky. I don't think that (Jigglypuff aside) Uthrows should be killing before 120%. B/Fthrows are trickier because your stage position changes survivability a lot. Throws can kill at 30% on Warioware if poorly DI'd.

We'll have to wait for 3.5 to see what the verdict is on kill throws and setups. I think they should exist, but many current ones need to be weaker.

 

[Spralwers]

Ok sure, maybe M2 and Lucas can kill earlier with set ups before when their throw kills. But if they don't, that's their fault and there's no reason to give them an option to cover for that mistake.

Might as well give Marth a kill throw that works at 110-120, because even if Marth lands the kill throw, he could've gotten a set up to kill you much earlier via combos and edge guards

 

[nimigoha]

And that's a great point. M2, Lucas, and Diddy are the last people who need such amazing kill throws because they can kill so easily.

I wouldn't have a problem with them being kept, but those three Uthrows definitely need a nerf. Like 180%+

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Silly Spralwers

Marth already has a kill throw

In fact he has 4

 

[Deleted member]

Just played with this. Lucas Uthrow no DI on FD killed Mario at 102% (when grabbed).

Mewtwo was 103%.

Also Lucas's Dthrow is easy to DI behind him, and the followup can be impossible depending on the character. But it's a good setup move. I wouldn't be surprised if its KBG is increased in 3.5.

1. Proved my point #I'mGodlike

2. DIing behind lucas leads to getting hit by aerials or dacus... lol.

 

[shairn]

Silly Spralwers

Marth already has a kill throw

In fact he has 4

So long as you DI Marth,s throws right, the worst you,ll get is tech chased. Compare to throws like Ness dthrow that can be a bair or fair to nair offstage nearly guaranteed regardless of DI or Lucas dthrow which can only be DI'd in one direction to MAYBE not get usmashed at 60 and die.

Why are so many dthrows so free?

 

[nimigoha]

I honestly have no idea why Lucas's Dthrow is only DI-able in one direction. Hopefully this gets fixed.

 

[Ripple]

you can DI it both ways. there is nothing broken about it

 

[shairn]

Yeah DI in front works... It sticks you right on top of him and you might as well be dead, No DI is a very similar result and DI behind is hope you're low percent or fall fast enough to not get DACUS'd

 

[Player -0]

DI above him = DJC Up Air -> Lolz.

 

[trash?]

also chaingrabs and techchases. aren't silly grabs fantastic

oddly enough, the best kind of grabs aren't complained about that much, b/c when you get down to it a grab that does being a grab well is not the same as an obnoxious grab that does a completely BS job well. nobody complains about DDD's grabs, but that's because his great grabs make sense

 

[Frost | Odds]

Except that penguins don't have hands

 

[DrinkingFood]

Man yeah PM throws are so free we should take inspiration from characters in Melee like Sheik and Falcon, nobody complains about their throws because nobody can change them

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Just played Sheik in Melee today for the first time. Oh man where has this character been all my life. It was awesome, but around the sixtieth time I KO'd my significantly superior practice partner with Dthrow -> Aerial I had to call shenanigans.

I mean PM autocombos durr Melee has hard grab follow ups Dthrow Fair so hard grrr

 

[CORY]

you can get that feel with ganon, still.

just, you're playing ganon so it almost feels balanced. almost

 

[Spralwers]

Melee NTSC Sheik is basically a PM character.

 

[Foo]

you can get that feel with ganon, still.

just, you're playing ganon so it almost feels balanced. almost

I'd say it does feel balanced just barely, but only because they have to be physically inside you for the grab to register. Oh, and they can't be short

 

[Deleted member]

if you guys make marths bthrow kill at 100% every time i promise to make absolutely anyone you want to quit the game in half an hour flat

 

[Player -0]

If they're by a wall how does this work, does Marth open a time portal and then chuck them through it or is Marth just super cool and then explode?

 

[Foo]

If they're by a wall how does this work, does Marth open a time portal and then chuck them through it or is Marth just super cool and then explode?

Make it act as a meteor and send them straight up with no ability to DI.