Tier List Speculation

[DrinkingFood]

Why not remove hover/DJ options from tele and give it a once-per-airtime use, refreshable at edge (new 3.5 mechanics prevent stalling anyways). Now he can approach with it but it's a really dumb idea unless you know your opponent won't possibly even trade with you, particularly at high percents when losing your up-b recovery option is more dangerous.

Also I know everybody's onboard the MewTwo nerf train but there are still some dumb counter intuitive things about his character that are bad for him and could afford to be fixed once he's neutered or w/e in 3.5.
Down-b almost never hits short characters
You can only HC his first aerial of a hover
Double jumping then grabbing edge makes him lose hover like he ever used it, even though the double jump counter/flag/whatever refreshes on edge grab, the hover won't even if he didn't use it
Grounded teleport ending is still laggy as ****. Why is this animation useless and instead his aerial teleport ending was buffed beyond any acceptable level?

 

[1FD]

^Refreshes like ROB UpBs ya?
I like that
If you use UpB, you ain't gettin it back if you don't touch the ground/or ledge, so better make sure

Down B is a combo finisher off uair chains that go into hover-uair > hover closer down b that 0-deaths any non-fastfaller

including small characters, that was my point and forgot to mention) so it not hitting like... out of neutral? Isn't exactly its priority function

That I've yet to see on ANY VIDEO aside from a combo video of someone doing it to roy in like feb/march and m2k do it to ally's ike ONCE
It's like the freest crap ever but mewtwos keep finishing their combos with one. last. uair. Instead of kills
Drives me nuts
Almost as nuts as wolf players
Or falcon
driving me nuts

actually change my mind everything drives me nuts
At least waterfall guy is using down b with zss to some extent for things

**** rang

 

[Mera Mera]

This is incredibly rude, I'll have you know that I pride myself in accuracy regarding any smash data related project.

Some people use inaccurate methods, yes, but not me or Sartron or any of the ones that we've looked over/helped with.

I didn't actually check who posted the data until after I commented that I knew a few threads were off. I wasn't trying to assert that the Mewtwo thread was certainly off, only that it might be an issue. When I checked later I recognized your name and thought it was less likely that your data was wrong...

I'm sorry about that :S
I didn't mean any slight by it and I was unaware of who did and didn't collect data correctly. I just knew that there was a common way people got unintentionally false data which has caused some of the frame data threads to be incorrect. It seems that in the case of Mewtwo this is not the case. My bad :/

 

[JOE!]

Which is why I'm waiting for 3.5 to use debug mode as a base for a revamped zard guide.

 

[steelguttey]

just make a thread about nair's hitbox that should spawn some charizard players

 

[Player -0]

Guys, I've figured out the changelog for 3.5 Falco. The only reasonable changes would be:
- Phantasm is now jump/Shine cancellable
- Fire Bird now activates instantly, is like Wolf's Brawl Up B (multihit), goes forever, and is cancellable by anything.
- Everytime he shines he regains his DJ
- Lasers activate in 5 frames and fire every 5 frames.

Behold: P:M minus/Omega mode.

Idek... M2 OP?

 

[Deleted member]

falco's up b is already cancellable by anything

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

OMGWTFAREYOUSERIOUS FOX CAN DACUS NOW?

Are you suuuuuuuure you've thought this through?

 

[Soft Serve]

OMGWTFAREYOUSERIOUS FOX CAN DACUS NOW?

Are you suuuuuuuure you've thought this through?

Why would he want to dacus, his running speed is already fast enough and running is less limited. He also wouldn't get more distance than falco does
having another option to move forward and up smash doesn't change anything.

 

[TreK]

He may get a gatling combo

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Why would he want to dacus, his running speed is already fast enough and running is less limited. He also wouldn't get more distance than falco does
having another option to move forward and up smash doesn't change anything.

Why would he want to? Why wouldn't he want more options at any given time?

 

[Soft Serve]

Why would he want to? Why wouldn't he want more options at any given time?

because Its a commitment, and DA is easily CC able, shield grab-able, and just beat able if whiffs
Why would fox dacus at someone when he can just run at them with his fast run speed and stay in running/dashing which has far less commitment. Yeah, its another option to get up-smash, its not a new option in general. I dont think it changes anything really. If he does get a good boost from it, then he can chain Nair>Dacus from further away and that's really it.
If he does get a Gatling combo it could be cool.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

because Its a commitment, and DA is easily CC able, shield grab-able, and just beat able if whiffs
Why would fox dacus at someone when he can just run at them with his fast run speed and stay in running/dashing which has far less commitment. Yeah, its another option to get up-smash, its not a new option in general. I dont think it changes anything really. If he does get a good boost from it, then he can chain Nair>Dacus from further away and that's really it.
If he does get a Gatling combo it could be cool.

Never necessarily said it was the best option. But more options should never be considered a bad thing.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I'm trying to think of characters besides that one for whom a newly acquired DACUS is a big deal. Falcon? Dedede? Lucario's USmash hitbox isn't wonderful ... idk

 

[GP&B]

Oh god, Falcon DACUS.

But yeah now that I think of it, there's still naturally going to be few good DACUS's even with the AT being given to the whole cast now.

 

[steelguttey]

if olimar got a gatling combo the world would end and i would be so happy

 

[InfinityCollision]

I'm trying to think of characters besides that one for whom a newly acquired DACUS is a big deal. Falcon? Dedede? Lucario's USmash hitbox isn't wonderful ... idk

Falcon has a 4 frame jumpsquat so unless they just outright give him a decent DACUS because reasons this won't affect him. Same for D3, except 6 frames.

Pikachu comes to mind but I'm not sure how much distance he'll get from it. Maybe Kirby's will be decent? Sheik obviously. Samus' ice usmash is a great candidate, and Tink should have a decent one.

Why not remove hover/DJ options from tele and give it a once-per-airtime use, refreshable at edge (new 3.5 mechanics prevent stalling anyways). Now he can approach with it but it's a really dumb idea unless you know your opponent won't possibly even trade with you, particularly at high percents when losing your up-b recovery option is more dangerous.

Also I know everybody's onboard the MewTwo nerf train but there are still some dumb counter intuitive things about his character that are bad for him and could afford to be fixed once he's neutered or w/e in 3.5.
Down-b almost never hits short characters
You can only HC his first aerial of a hover
Double jumping then grabbing edge makes him lose hover like he ever used it, even though the double jump counter/flag/whatever refreshes on edge grab, the hover won't even if he didn't use it
Grounded teleport ending is still laggy as ****. Why is this animation useless and instead his aerial teleport ending was buffed beyond any acceptable level?

All of this would be pretty cool, actually. Teleport working like ROB's up-b would be an interesting change. Would be nice if jab hit short characters/actually worked as a jab reset on more than half the cast too.

Down B is a combo finisher off uair chains that go into hover-uair > hover closer down b that 0-deaths any non-fastfaller

including small characters, that was my point and forgot to mention) so it not hitting like... out of neutral? Isn't exactly its priority function

That I've yet to see on ANY VIDEO aside from a combo video of someone doing it to roy in like feb/march and m2k do it to ally's ike ONCE
It's like the freest crap ever but mewtwos keep finishing their combos with one. last. uair. Instead of kills
Drives me nuts

It's definitely underutilized. His second strongest option for launching horizontally in the air sans Shadow Ball (the other being sweetspot bair but the sweetspot's at the base, not the tip) and the angle is great. It's got some other neat applications too.

 

[Frost | Odds]

I'm trying to think of characters besides that one for whom a newly acquired DACUS is a big deal. Falcon? Dedede? Lucario's USmash hitbox isn't wonderful ... idk

The doubled frame window makes it a much more attractive option for GnW, Roy, and Wolf.

Also, uh, Kirby's DACUS is probably absolutely terrifying.

 

[Player -0]

Kirby:
D-Tilt/F-Tilt/DI'ed away Up Tilt -> DACUS

Hmmmm.

Edit - Will this make Peach's D-Throw regrab/DACUS mixup easier?

 

[Soft Serve]

Tink might enjoy having one. Sheik can use it like running upsmashes for tech chaces.
Samus will get ALOT of use out of it with fire-upsmash. That is such a good combo starter/extender, it depends on how much of a boost she gets
I dont think Pika's will go very far but if it does that'd be good.

@ Player -0 Peach's timing should be exactly the same. It makes 4 frame jumpsquaters have it 1 frame easier, and ganons/links harder by a frame.

 

[shairn]

While Ganon and Link's DACUS seem harder, you have to consider the option to use Z without the 1 frame detriment, which means that in 3.02 their Z button DACUS would be 2 frames and then remain the same in 3.5. 1 frame for a much easier button scheme is pretty lenient I think. Bowser is the real loser here.

Really looking forward to Marth/Sheik DACUS. While Marth does have one it's one frame with attack so it's a bit of a hassle to pull off.

 

[Vashimus]

Looking forward to Samus and MK DACUS. Perfect follow up after their down throws.

 

[trash?]

kirby still can't DACUS, neither can DK or diddy b/c of how their hitbox goes off stage

I still don't know why its ability to go off-stage stops that from happening but w/e

 

[Fortress]

kirby still can't DACUS, neither can DK or diddy b/c of how their hitbox goes off stage

I still don't know why its ability to go off-stage stops that from happening but w/e

Maybe I'm just tired, but I'm not following you here, Canon. Dash Attacks that take you off ledges cannot be used to DACUS or something?

I'm trying to think of characters besides that one for whom a newly acquired DACUS is a big deal. Falcon? Dedede? Lucario's USmash hitbox isn't wonderful ... idk

Pit, Pit, Pit. Reverse KB to suck you in, plus kill potential at fairly early percents. Plus it comes out on frame three. Plus it's attached to Pit, the man who has everything.

 

[Player -0]

Pit should have Link's Nair. Now that would be super crossup approaches ftw.

 

[Strong Badam]

People don't seem to understand what the blogpost means. It DOES NOT mean that EVERY CHARACTER gets a DACUS.
DACUS distance is still based on the startup of your dash attack! Whether or not you can DACUS is purely based on this fact instead of on jump startup time.
If your character is a 4+ frame jumper and don't already have a DACUS, you don't get one now. 4 frame jumpers (Wolf, G&W, Roy, Marth) get an additional frame of input time, 6+ frame jumpers get a smaller input window.
If you are a 3 frame jumper and the startup of your dash attack has appropriately high horizontal movement, you now have a DACUS. There were like 4 last I checked that got one.

 

[mimgrim]

Does this mean Sheik will get access to DACUS again (again, as in from Brawl)?

 

[nimigoha]

People don't seem to understand what the blogpost means. It DOES NOT mean that EVERY CHARACTER gets a DACUS.
DACUS distance is still based on the startup of your dash attack! Whether or not you can DACUS is purely based on this fact instead of on jump startup time.
If your character is a 4+ frame jumper and don't already have a DACUS, you don't get one now. 4 frame jumpers (Wolf, G&W, Roy, Marth) get an additional frame of input time, 6+ frame jumpers get a smaller input window.
If you are a 3 frame jumper and the startup of your dash attack has appropriately high horizontal movement, you now have a DACUS. There were like 4 last I checked that got one.

Wiiztec replied to me on your post with this: http://www.reddit.com/r/SSBPM/comments/2k4thz/project_m_35_blogpost_8_various_system_changes/cli4bwr

saying that every character now has a DACUS in some degree.

But if you're right, then the blogpost wasn't worded fantastically regarding DACUS:

"We have decided to implement a universal two-frame DACUS window for the whole cast of characters"

I suppose this could be interpreted as "for everyone who can DACUS, the window is now 2 frames and is not affected by jump squat" which is what you're saying, but pretty much everyone interpreted it as "DACUS is a universal technique".

 

[Strong Badam]

No. The DACUS window is universally 2 frames. You can cancel your dash attack into Upsmash with many characters and get no additional or even less distance compared to a simple running upsmash, such as Bowser in every single version of PM. Just because they don't get any distance doesn't mean the act of canceling their dash attack into an upsmash doesn't occur.

The blogpost says directly after that sentence:
Though there is now a globally consistent input window, the distance each DACUS travels is still primarily based upon a character’s initial Dash Attack movement

 

[nimigoha]

So... everyone does get a DACUS?

As in, every character can do the input for a DACUS and it will be an Upsmash, not a Dash Attack?

It's just that some won't go anywhere.

I don't mean everyone gets to slip'n'slide all over the stage like Lucas, but doing the DACUS input will result in an Upsmash.

 

[Strong Badam]

Yes, based on their dash attack movement, as one would expect.

 

[DrinkingFood]

falco's up b is already cancellable by anything

Why is this hilarious

 

[nimigoha]

Awesome. I doubt ICs are gonna get any slide, their DA seems to halt and then lunge, meaning that (if I'm understanding this correctly) since the length is determined by the startup frames of the DA, they'll just sit there and Upsmash.

Although does traction affect DACUS? Looking at Roy, Marth, and Lucas, who travel extremely far and have low traction. I guess conversely you have Ivy who has like a top 10 wavedash length but a pitiful DACUS.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Yes traction affects DACUS length, it determines how long your character keeps the momentum from their dash attack once cancelled into the upsmash. If they don't get any extra momentum from their DA then it doesn't matter.

 

[JOE!]

Actually, I may have to learn this now as Zards dacus would probs be good...

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Hmm. Wonder if Samus gets any appreciable distance, she might enjoy having two DACUS.

 

[TreK]

Are dacus and dacg related ? Like, if your character can now dacus, can it now dacg as well ?

 

[Blank Mauser]

Every character can already DACG. Its an easy way to do an instant pivot grab. Some just go further than others.

 

[Frost | Odds]

No. The DACUS window is universally 2 frames. You can cancel your dash attack into Upsmash with many characters and get no additional or even less distance compared to a simple running upsmash, such as Bowser in every single version of PM.

The double roar is pretty hype tho

 

[Jacob29]

People don't seem to understand what the blogpost means. It DOES NOT mean that EVERY CHARACTER gets a DACUS.
DACUS distance is still based on the startup of your dash attack! Whether or not you can DACUS is purely based on this fact instead of on jump startup time.
If your character is a 4+ frame jumper and don't already have a DACUS, you don't get one now. 4 frame jumpers (Wolf, G&W, Roy, Marth) get an additional frame of input time, 6+ frame jumpers get a smaller input window.
If you are a 3 frame jumper and the startup of your dash attack has appropriately high horizontal movement, you now have a DACUS. There were like 4 last I checked that got one.

Perhaps if everyone is getting it wrong then the post wasn't properly explained?

In fact after reading your next few posts I'm still confused as to what's going on.

Every is getting a DACUS but not everyone's will be worthwhile to use?