Tier List Speculation

[Fortress]

****, ****, Christ, my ears.

RIP headphone users.

 

[Apollo Ali]

Has Meta Knight placed well at some major tournaments?

I find it funny that he's consistently in top tier (number 3 on the community list!?) without much tourney results while Dedede, who has played top 8 at two recent tournaments, is relegated to mid/bottom.

 

[DrinkingFood]

I take everyone's opinion on a tier list at this point with the biggest grain of salt.

The issue is that apparently, @ Ali Baba 177 does not. He went through the effort to take everyone's opinions into consideration. Which is not a good thing. It wouldn't be a big deal, though, if he hadn't also put it into convenient image format so that anyone who doesn't know better and doesn't browse the boards often enough may very well stumble onto his posts and, ignorantly convinced by the mediocre methods he used, offer it to others until it starts to legitimately affect people's character choices and thus the progression of the game's development.

 

[Fortress]

Aren't these all just personal opinions though? What's it matter if a few people agree with his graphic.

>based observation, Fortress

 

[victra♥]

wario is awful I don't understand the hype
dedede is the most underrated character in pm

 

[Ali Baba 177]

The issue is that apparently, @ Ali Baba 177 does not. He went through the effort to take everyone's opinions into consideration. Which is not a good thing. It wouldn't be a big deal, though, if he hadn't also put it into convenient image format so that anyone who doesn't know better and doesn't browse the boards often enough may very well stumble onto his posts and, ignorantly convinced by the mediocre methods he used, offer it to others until it starts to legitimately affect people's character choices and thus the progression of the game's development.

Well there's some hate, I don't see whats wrong in spending time in trying to create a current tier list, on a tier list speculation thread,, using peoples opinions from here along with tournament results. Is it bad to make something easier to read and understand? And why are my methods mediocre? What can I do to make them better in your eyes?

 

[jtm94]

I don't know anyone could see a video of M2K's Mewtwo and think the character isn't somewhere near top-tier.

GnW is dirt. Bacon is dirt, used too much.

Squirtle has mad potential.

 

[Fortress]

I don't know anyone could see a video of M2K's Mewtwo and think the character isn't somewhere near top-tier.

One single player, one of the best of the game, playing a character well shouldn't warrant moving that character up in the tier list. If we see Mewtwo doing consistently well with a larger main-base, then sure, maybe, but one player isn't going to cut it, no matter how good they are.

 

[jtm94]

I didn't intend it that way, but Mewtwo has a lot of really unfair things, and I have played other people's Mewtwo's, and they did really unfair things that are much better than any other character.

I didn't intend to just cite him alone as making Mewtwo top tier. VaNz also has an amazing Mewtwo.

I just don't see it the same as Armada just being super good with Pit and making good decisions, but as Mewtwo just having really good options if not better options than the opponent in most situations. He also has really good MUs against a lot of the cast which is pretty important in making tiers.

 

[Nguz95]

G&W is too real. Don't be hating just because he's so good.

 

[XXXX1000]

alright you goons welcome to the future of tier lists and tier list speculation



I have determined that everyone else's tier lists are lame crap. The problems with all of your other tier lists are:

1. You're all too quick to place characters into a direct 1-41 list when there's NO way to be able to make an accurate list of that kind. Tons of people in here saying "well Mewtwo has the most potential out of anyone!" or "Does anyone even play Olimar/Yoshi/Samus?" and then trying to place them either top or mid or in Olimar's case at the very, very bottom. When you start putting characters like Olimar and Squirtle at the bottom, it discourages people from trying to understand the character and instantly discredits anyone who may see them as stronger than what the hivemind thinks as well as making you look really dumb when better players come in and say that they're actually good (shoutouts to Oracle and Neon). As such, I have added an area reserved for characters that need more data and understanding before being placed on a list. I have also used venn diagrams to allow people to show characters that could drift between two categories. I encourage you to use those areas liberally, to be willing to admit when you don't know what you're talking about and to keep an open mind about everything.

2. "Top" and "Bottom" and "Strong" and "Weak" are not the best terms to describe the cast that everyone agrees is actually fairly balanced. Therefore, "Above Average" and "Below Average" seems much more fitting. This way, people who aren't comfortable calling characters as bad (just "less good") can rest easy.

3. Not enough pictures and colors

FOR MY FINAL TRICK I have gone through the effort of uploading this template as an interactive GIMP project, so anyone with GIMP can open it up and simply use the Move tool to drag-and-drop characters for easy tier list creations. Big thanks to 9bit for supplying me with those sexy character icons.

download the template and let everyone in the world look at your crappy tier list today: https://www.mediafire.com/?ush0cbpuj47ol79

 

[Jacob29]

Does your list idea force a 1/3 + 1/3 + 1/3 split?

I guess it does with the wording of Average etc. although if you are gonna do it literally then it would end up with 20 in the Above average, 1 in Average, and 20 in below average.

 

[Rizner]

Tier List Bell Curve Mk. II

Now that I am not drunk anymore and put a little more thought into it (and flipped the X axis) here it is:

Spoiler: Chart version

Spoiler: List version

Top
Fox, Falco

High
• Meta Knight, Sheik, Wolf
• Mario, Lucas, Pit

High Middle
• ZSS, Marth, Wario, Diddy Kong, Bowser, Kirby
• Ivysaur, Snake, Mewtwo, Link, Ike, Yoshi

Low Middle
• Peach, Charizard, Roy, Captain Falcon, Samus, Sonic, King Dedede
• Donkey Kong, Ice Climbers, ROB, Zelda, Jigglypuff, Lucario

Low
• Toon Link, Pikachu, Luigi
• Ness, Mr. Game & Watch, Olimar

Bottom
• Squirtle, Ganondorf

I didn't change much besides moving Toon Link and Peach up a little and Olimar and Lucario down a little.

Characters that could easily move: Squirtle, Ness, Olimar, Zelda, ROB, and Samus. Where they might go I'm not sure, but they'll probably all stay on the left side anyway.

Remember that there is only a slight difference in touching columns and a slightly larger difference in spaced columns. This game is crazy balanced.

Spoiler: My own personal notes about what I might change

• Switch Roy and Ike
• Switch Ivy and Bowser
• Switch ROB and Samus

What is the reason kirby places so high for you?

 

[Strong Badam]

wario is awful I don't understand the hype

i always make people think mid-tier characters are high tier this isn't new victor

 

[Terotrous]

One single player, one of the best of the game, playing a character well shouldn't warrant moving that character up in the tier list. If we see Mewtwo doing consistently well with a larger main-base, then sure, maybe, but one player isn't going to cut it, no matter how good they are.

I think it's more about the fact that Mewtwo's toolset completely shuts down some characters, like Jiggs. However, I think Jiggs is the problem here, not Mewtwo. Jiggs' toolbox is so limited that she simply has no way to overcome characters with good range. This is a fundamental problem with Jiggs that needs to be fixed to make her a viable character.

 

[Fortress]

Squirtle isn't even in my bubble. We mad, yet?

 

[Rᴏb]

Why is Diddy so low?

 

[Fortress]

Why is Diddy so low?

Why should he be higher?

I put him where he is because (as far as I've ever known) he's never exactly been known to be a top performer, at least not recently. He's got some jank with glide toss tech, but he's also a lightweight with a stumpable recovery.

Where Lucas is a lightweight with a stumpable recovery, he also has incredible pressure and kill potential that I haven't seen exhibited from Diddy.

 

[Soft Serve]

Why should he be higher?

I put him where he is because (as far as I've ever known) he's never exactly been known to be a top performer, at least not recently. He's got some jank with glide toss tech, but he's also a lightweight with a stumpable recovery.

Where Lucas is a lightweight with a stumpable recovery, he also has incredible pressure and kill potential that I haven't seen exhibited from Diddy.

Bladewise got 4th at the recent gameclucks tourney playing solo diddy. Boss just got second last night at Xanadu playing mostly diddy and then his doc when he wasn't comfortable with a matchup and such. Guy places well at xanadu as well. Disqo_bunny places consistantly well in socal tournaments(top 10 almost always), and Abstract Logic places well in his region too. According to smashboards rankings, 14 diddy's have made it to top 8, and this is with the massive backup of brackets that aren't even counted yet. Results aren't that hard to find guys.


I like this new colorful way to make a tier list. going to do one later.

 

[Fortress]

Fourteen players isn't too terribly much. I can understand him being moved to low-average at most, but I don't think he's that up there. I just don't see it.

Squarely behind R.O.B. sounds pretty fair, to me.

 

[Ali Baba 177]

alright you goons welcome to the future of tier lists and tier list speculation

View attachment 9671

I have determined that everyone else's tier lists are lame crap. The problems with all of your other tier lists are:

1. You're all too quick to place characters into a direct 1-41 list when there's NO way to be able to make an accurate list of that kind. Tons of people in here saying "well Mewtwo has the most potential out of anyone!" or "Does anyone even play Olimar/Yoshi/Samus?" and then trying to place them either top or mid or in Olimar's case at the very, very bottom. When you start putting characters like Olimar and Squirtle at the bottom, it discourages people from trying to understand the character and instantly discredits anyone who may see them as stronger than what the hivemind thinks as well as making you look really dumb when better players come in and say that they're actually good (shoutouts to Oracle and Neon). As such, I have added an area reserved for characters that need more data and understanding before being placed on a list. I have also used venn diagrams to allow people to show characters that could drift between two categories. I encourage you to use those areas liberally, to be willing to admit when you don't know what you're talking about and to keep an open mind about everything.

2. "Top" and "Bottom" and "Strong" and "Weak" are not the best terms to describe the cast that everyone agrees is actually fairly balanced. Therefore, "Above Average" and "Below Average" seems much more fitting. This way, people who aren't comfortable calling characters as bad (just "less good") can rest easy.

3. Not enough pictures and colors

FOR MY FINAL TRICK I have gone through the effort of uploading this template as an interactive GIMP project, so anyone with GIMP can open it up and simply use the Move tool to drag-and-drop characters for easy tier list creations. Big thanks to 9bit for supplying me with those sexy character icons.

download the template and let everyone in the world look at your crappy tier list today: https://www.mediafire.com/?ush0cbpuj47ol79

What program do I download to? Word?

 

[Kink-Link5]

Fourteen players isn't too terribly much. I can understand him being moved to low-average at most, but I don't think he's that up there. I just don't see it.

Squarely behind R.O.B. sounds pretty fair, to me.

Ness has somewhere around two players.

 

[9bit]

What is the reason kirby places so high for you?

He's got a really good down-throw to tech-chase game, he can duck under a lot of attacks/grabs, his edgeguarding/gimping is top tier, and swallow is really really good. Amongst other smaller things like his gahlike tilts and small landing lag on hammer.

I could see him moving a column down, but I think he'll always be in the upper half of the cast with the changes he's received.

 

[Strong Badam]

Why is that CSS Icon of Mewtwo floating around? That's not his CSS Icon in Project M <__<

 

[9bit]

Haha, I made all those icons. I downloaded the images from http://projectmgame.com/en/characters and put borders around them. But at the time I made them, MewTwo wasn't official yet so I just pulled some pic from the internet.

If anybody wants that pack of icons you can download them from here: https://mega.co.nz/#!kk0kRJ4B!B5SiKdrYQMinLNpemmGknTZVAXU4C-W91VYHo_6BeIA

 

[didds]

Re-ordered this for you. Left-to-right for who's at the top of what category and whatnot. Not included are Olimar, Samus, Ice Climbers, Yoshi, and Kirby, since they've barely been around for this build.

EDIT: Moved Zelda up to the middle of... whatever the **** tier 'er-Top' is, moved Peach slightly down and moved Roy and ZSS up one spot, kept Diddy where he is.

Yoshi not good enough to make the list? Yoshi is OP... CAN JUMP OUTTA SHIELD AND DOESNT SKARED OF NO ONE!

 

[XXXX1000]

What program do I download to? Word?

The .xcf file I linked is for GIMP, a free image editing program.

And I'm glad Chu is playing Kirby in PM, he's definitely trying to take the swallow shenanigans to the max level, the true spacie counter

 

[MLGF]

When did making simple tier lists get so complicated?
Project M players always trying to mess with the formula...

 

[9bit]

Bell curve is the future!

 

[Mr. Fox]

Haven't posted on here yet but I'm gonna go ahead and give out my own P:M Tier List for the lulz. No particular order within each tier.

Top

Mario
Fox
Wolf
Pit
Mewtwo
Lucas
Ivysaur
Snake

High

Falco
R.O.B.
Captain Falcon
Roy
Marth
Luigi
Sonic
Diddy Kong
Zelda
Link
Lucario

Mid

Squirtle
Sheik
Samus
Metaknight
Ike
Bowser
Ganondorf
Zero Suit Samus
Charizard
Toon Link
Donkey Kong
Kirby
King Dedede
Mr. Game & Watch

Low

Wario
Yoshi
Peach
Ice Climbers
Pikachu
Jigglypuff
Ness
Olimar

To be completely honest, I think P:M is for the most part balanced. The difference in ability between the tiers is not by a large margin, and even the "Low" tier characters can be used proficiently. But if I had to sort them, this would be how I'd do it based on my own experience and tournament results I've seen from large tournaments.

EDIT: Forgot Squirtle while I was reminding myself not to forget Ness

 

[MLGF]

Oh and before I was reading that M2K is proving that Mewtwo is god tier or something, I don't recall it was ever resolved.

M2K just has a good Mewtwo. Seriously, it can take on Hax. Give him moderate buffs and of course he's gonna sweep.

 

[Deleted member]

Ness has somewhere around two players.

PK Fire has 2 players.

Ness has about 50 players in denial about PK Fire.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Oh and before I was reading that M2K is proving that Mewtwo is god tier or something, I don't recall it was ever resolved.

M2K just has a good Mewtwo. Seriously, it can take on Hax. Give him moderate buffs and of course he's gonna sweep.

Dammit PMBR why would you give Mewtwo Nasty Plot it was already Uber

Oh wait wrong forum

 

[Kink-Link5]

PK Fire has 2 players.

Ness has about 50 players in denial about PK Fire.

Sometimes I wish Ness had more than quirky annoying attacks.

 

[Paradoxium]

Oh and before I was reading that M2K is proving that Mewtwo is god tier or something, I don't recall it was ever resolved.

M2K just has a good Mewtwo. Seriously, it can take on Hax. Give him moderate buffs and of course he's gonna sweep.

Wow im so used to Pm mewtwo that melee mewtwo looks weird. Just look at his tail, its so short!

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

quirky annoying attacks is what defines olimar nad yet these annoying and gimmicky attacks make olimar incredibly solid.
He's god a really good interrupting nair, a really strong set of aerials, a potent spike, a side-b that literally rakcs up damage automatically, and a grab game with great range that sets up all of these moves perfectly.
In addition, he's a small character and all of his moves have amazing disjoint that extends far beyond his hitbox
His only issue is his tehter being stupid and sometimes going straight through ledges it should have grabbed

 

[jtm94]

PK Fire has Drephen.

Ness has people who don't use PK Fire enough.

 

[Ali Baba 177]

So I put the voting you guys did into @ XXXX1000 tier spectrum idea, no tournament result influence, and none of my opinion, just the general voting system into the spectrum. I did't put any character into the not developed enough category cause people have differing opinions on that. But If i were to do that I think Olimar, G+W, Lucario, TL, Charizard, ROB, CF, diddy and mewtwo are hardest for me to pick where they belong.

 

[jtm94]

View attachment 9703

So I put the voting you guys did into @ XXXX1000 tier spectrum idea, no tournament result influence, and none of my opinion, just the general voting system into the spectrum. I did't put any character into the not developed enough category cause people have differing opinions on that. But If i were to do that I think Olimar, G+W, Lucario, TL, Charizard, ROB, CF, diddy and mewtwo are hardest for me to pick where they belong.

I agree with this.

 

[deadjames]

I don't, there are a lot of placings that I disagree with, but the most glaring ones are that Pit is too high and Luigi and Pikachu are too low.