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tier list for teams

Razor

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 6, 2005
Messages
265
i've read other threads for guys just trying to pick up guys for team battles...but they're all mostly opinions without much explaination. i've heard different but i still have to wonder what chars are really designed for teams. marth is probably up there, falco probably isn't...any thoughts?
 

sweetooth

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 7, 2006
Messages
505
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Pittsburgh, PA
i dont really know, but this is something i am interested in as well. but my friend plays link and i play samus, and we are starting to get our tactics together, we are progressing quite nicely(when we play)
 

boy11

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 17, 2006
Messages
76
I'm interested in this as well. It'd probably be a good idea to look at some 2v2 matches in your spare time, and see what pairings work really well together. Of course, that all depends on how well the actual smashers work together, but at least it'll give you some idea ^_^.
 

Post Meridiem

Smash Apprentice
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Feb 14, 2006
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I think the real problem with making a tier list for 2 vs 2 is the fact that there just isn't alot of matches to draw a sample from. There is obviously countless more 1 vs 1 matches invovling high level players then 2 vs 2. I think the idea of 2 vs 2 needs to be explored more for a legitmate tier list to be created. Until then I think its a lot more spectualtive then the 1 vs 1 tier list.
 

Foxmeister

Smash Ace
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Nov 14, 2005
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NYC
Some good teams include : Double Falco, Marth and Sheik, Marth and Peach, Samus and Fox, Samus and Falco, Fox and Marth...these teams can all be very good if both players are at a semi pro or pro level...
 

ChozenOne

Smash Champion
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Teams Tier List-(updated 8/5/06)

Top Tier
Peach
Fox
Marth

Upper Tier
Jiggly
Capt. Falcon
Shiek
Ganon
Falco

High Tier
Link
Samus
IC's
Ness
Zelda

Mid
Luigi
Roy
Mario
Doc
Pikachu

Low Tier
Kirby
Young Link
Donkey Kong
Bowser
Yoshi

Bottom Tier
Pichu
MewTwo
Mr. Game and Watch

*note-
i added DK >_< even the chosen one can make mistakes...

Post or PM me for changes...
 

Cra$hman

Smash Lord
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wow chozen one that actually wasn't bad for a first try, i completely agree with fox peach and marth being the top tiers the only thing i can immediately attest to being wrong is bowser should be waaaay lower, the dude has NO tools to handle 2v1
 

Samochan

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Tsk, Kirby is a lot better in team than you can even dream about in your wildest dreams. :/ A lot better than many of those, actually. Falco hurts teammates with SHL, Samus' missiles can kill you by accident, Marth's sword has so much range he can hit you and so on. Kirby is small and hard to hit, cannot kill you by accident, ducks so you can approach with your SHL's and Missile spams, can copy your useful abilities (double charge shot anyone?), can kirbycide and of course, can even save you with swallow if you're out of jumps (just swallow your partner and copy, so they get vertical boost and all jumps back). Kirby's abilities get a big boost in team plays and he's rated lower than in actual tiers? That's quite contrary now, is it? As a Kirby player, I do know that Kirby is a lot better than that, especially in teams which is the area where he shines. Double swallowcide and Jiggly's rollout + Kirby's foward throw are just some of the comboes he can do in teams. Thy shouldn't underestimate the pink puffball.
 

t!MmY

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I concur with Samochan. Kirby is actually better as a partner than he is 1-vs-1. His strength lies in his ability to finish off opponents that are off the stage which happens far more often in doubles, especially when he has a partner that can reliably knock them off. Kirby's attacks are easy to control so you rarely kill your ally, and the hits that you may land will likely be quick and weak. And considering he's small and hard to hit, your partner can usually play as wrecklessly as they like and have little chance of striking Kirby (I've teamed with everything from missile-spamming Samus to F-smashing Marths).

I would think Kirby would be at least somewhere in the middle of a Team Tier List.
 

Dead Kev

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jun 8, 2006
Messages
13
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Waldorf, MD
i think a 2v2 tier list is ********.

i mean, some characters work well with specific others, you'd have to tier the pairs and whos up to that task? not me! i just know that jigglypuff, sheik and marth are good paired up with any character. fox and falcon's speed should not be overlooked either...
 

Samochan

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Dead Kev said:
i think a 2v2 tier list is ********.

i mean, some characters work well with specific others, you'd have to tier the pairs and whos up to that task? not me! i just know that jigglypuff, sheik and marth are good paired up with any character. fox and falcon's speed should not be overlooked either...
Should the tier list be made with every character then? Like, let's start from Sheik and determine who is the best partner for Sheik and so on, and then move one to next character. That would be quite a big list. But imo, some characters can be as good as bad in teams, for example Ice Climbers. Desynching IC's can be a beast but it's not that hard to dsmash your partner all the time, not to mention IC's projectile travels far. IC's would be pretty much in the way in teams. Making a tier list out of teams is a tough job but imo, not impossible. Someone with enough knowledge and skill could be able to whip up a good tier list example.
 

ChozenOne

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I think a team tier list is a pretty good idea... I don't believe it has been attempted before either, so this would be the first. The main purpose of this (much like the other singles tier list) is to show which characters have more advantage with combos/matchups n' such, and perhaps give suggestions to smashers in need of character advice and help pick a character. It also gives people another thing to john about :)

I also don't know about kirby... i don't main or use him, so i guess that could make me alittle ignorant about the kirbtastic ways he can accel in teams... however when seeing kirbster play him in teams i was very disapointed by his performance... Kirby is at best mid tier, and may need to move up form bottom, but i really don't know... I think my 2 min. tier list is pretty comprehensive though... PM me if you want me to edit my post... and perhaps we should ask MLG about making this official.
 

ChozenOne

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Not so, because when they grab and do their d-sync combos it allows for battle to focus between 1v1. they also have a fantastic projectile, and their OK recovery becomes less gay in teams. IC's are also a great partner for jiggs b/c everytime they grab is an oppertunity to rest :)
 

Lucky_Sharmz19

Smash Ace
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Jun 18, 2006
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KAIYO, you don't know anything about the Ice Climbers. Give us a good reason why the Ice Climbers should be bottom tier? Huh? Answer that question now. Ice climbers have the second best wave dash. Also when Nana is still alive, the Ice climbers are really strong. Their projectiles is pretty nice. Their grabs are absolutely AMAZING. With enough skill, you could fight someone without Nana. Like, the person you are fighting is aiming for Nana and she gets killed and you are now on your own. What are you to do? Keep fighting. Their recovery is OK too and good thing Nana can grab the edge while facing the opposite direction during the recovery. Their aerials are good, their ground attacks are good. One of the bad things about the IceClimbers though, Nana is very stupid and lets her self get killed. If you are seperated from her, like atleast a few feet away, she will turn into a lvl 1 AI unless she is with you. When she dies, you lose your recovery a long with half your strength.
 

BrTarolg

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 12, 2006
Messages
975
oh ffs people

in order to construct a tier list for TWO v TWOS

you need to have tiers involving TWO characters

so something like <and bear in mind, im just popping this off the top of my head>

Top Tier
marth + jiggly
fox + falco
fox +marth etc.etc.

where you would have TWO characters in one slot. i have no idea whats top tier for 2v2 anyway so dont take that list for anything >_>
 

Rapid_Assassin

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It all depends on who the partners are, for some characters. A character that can cover for the other one's flaws makes a better teammate than one who can't. Also, it depends on the player. For example, I know 2 different mario players who are evenly matched with each other. One makes an awesome partner for me, while the other is a terrible partner. The difference lies in their playing styles, and how well they work with other people. Like if they are the type that attacks anything that moves or if they actually pay attention..
 

ChozenOne

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This is a tier list for teams, not a team tier list. Clearly if this was a team tier list it would go something like Peach/Marth, Fox/Peach, Shiek/Peach, ect. however it's not. The tier list above is based on overall effectivness, and capability in teams, including combos n' the like. Clearly some characters are better with others, much like some characters have advantage over another character, this is the same with teams. So teams work well together and generate advantage, while other teams clearly counter other teams. Pls don't post, and be like: a tier list for teams is ********... got it. your 2 cents are appreciated
 

Courtofdoom

Smash Apprentice
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Norcal
This Tier list looks pretty good. The bottom half is kinda up for debate though. Kirby at bottom? I dunno about that.
 

Blind

Honorbound
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Jul 15, 2004
Messages
1,055
Kirby doesn't belong at the bottom by any stretch of the imagination. SH forward+b is a terrible idea in singles, but in doubles? Forces both opponents into their shields leaving one open for a grab by the other player. Suicides make a world of difference and they're easier to land because it's more chaotic. As Samochan said, his ability to keep opponents off the stage is magnified because he has another teammate capable of getting them there. He has 3 options for additional powers. With Falco's lasers, he can consistently save a teammate. Using the first part of his f-air will barely nudge somebody, giving them more recovery room. His roll is fast and covers a lot of ground, so he can traverse the stage relatively safe. He makes a spectacular teammate played properly.

IC's at bottom? Two words, CHU DAT. Or, if you want more in depth reasons... their smashes are potent KO'ers and their wavedash gives them the opportunity to glide around the level, punishing mistakes. They can make their movements hard to read, so you can keep the opponent guessing when you suddenly dart back to help your teammate. They work particularly well with a teammate who focuses mostly on an air game, because they can cover the ground with strong, relatively safe attacks. They're also reasonably heavy, which makes them good for holding stock. Furthermore, their recovery is hindered by edgeguarding less because with a teammate to distract the opponent, it becomes significantly harder to punish their forward+b.

Jigglypuff should definitely be high up in the teams list, just because she can attack without committment. This means that she can maneuver around the stage with disruptive hits while always being able to travel in another direction to help a teammate. Also, if a teammate lands a grab, just rest, then jab to wake her up. Free stock right there.

Peach is a nice teammate because she can float and use d-air to help a teammate's recovery. Her down-smash takes up a nice part of the stage, and in the chaos of 2v2 it's a lot harder for an opponent not to accidentally CC and take 30-60 damage. With decent DI, she lives quite a while, and she can make herself difficult to edgeguard while a teammate comes in to help. Her high priority attacks, when the opponent can't focus on spacing as much, will often cut through the action.

Fox; he has those important KO moves: shines, u-smash, and u-air. If an opponent is being difficult, shine them off the stage to help your teammate. If somebody's taking too long to kill, surprise up-smash. Up-throw up-air works on a large portion of the cast, and will also KO at reasonable percentages. Shines can turn the tide of a match with remarkable quickness. His general speed gives him the ability to cross the stage in an instant, often with one of his powerful KO moves, or with his speedy aerials. He definitely belongs way up there.

Those are the characters I know the most about, simply because I team with them, have seen them, or use them myself in teams.

As for the usefulness of this list: of course you're not going to get the full impact of a teammate's usefulness just from their position on the list. The singles tier list itself is hardly an indication of individual matchups, just a reflection of general tendencies and advantages. The 2v2 tier list, therefore, would be an indication of how well a character can work with others, and how their inherent abilities are magnified or diminished in a 2v2 setting. It's probably a useful thing to have around.
 

ChozenOne

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G-Reg... what does that mean?? Does it matter. It's G-Reg! G-Reg for prez. "Pound".

Seriously. I'm not sure whether bowser should be higher or lower then younglink on the tier list... Gimpyfish... I'm calling you out. Where do you think bowser should be on this list... and try not to give me something like "Bowser for top tier".
 

Black Luigi

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 25, 2006
Messages
206
Chozen One, while I like the idea of your list, I think you'd need a teams tier list as in which teams are where on the list i.e. Marth+Peach, Falcon+Bowser, etc.

Picking 2 of the higher people from your list can cause some major conflicts in my opinion. I play a lot of Marth and I'm not too big on teaming with Falcon because it's easy to get crushed with that knee.
 

Samochan

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Imo, some characters are worse off in teams than singles. I can think of Falco, for example. Falco's approach relies very much on SHL, but with a teammate, you can't spam laser as you would in singles. I also cannot think of many comboes he could pull off in teams. I can also imagine his shine pillaring capabilities would be hindered in teams, since there is a teammate to possibly kill that combo. Samus on the other hand is super in teams. Not only she can take advantage of her tankish abilities and live long, but her missiles and especially charge shots become more deadly when she's free to unload them to unsuspecting opponent and edgeguard. She can also handle two opponents at once, which is always a plus. I've found out Kirby and Samus is very effective, but I would also think anyone that can crouch Samus missiles would be a good teammate for her, though I think Jiggly takes the cake here because jiggly can edgeguard them out of the screen once samus sends them off stage. As Blind said, Jiggly can deal some major punishments in teams and rarely does any real damage to team partner, not to mention rollout can actually be used in teams. Imo, Jigglypuff is top tier team material.
 

Scamp

Smash Master
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1. Peach is overrated in teams. There, I said it.

2. Playing styles do not matter in a tier list. If you play better with a certain person's style, that doesn't have anything to do with the character.

3. A few people have said something along the lines of having to list teams or that certain characters only work well with certain other characters. Yet no one has provided a single example of this.

4. Do you want a good tier list for 2 vs 2? (Assuming TA is ON.) Look at the tier list for 1vs1. And there you have it. Any changes for teams will be minor at best.

5. Listing teams instead of individual characters is a horrible idea. If you separate Zelda and Sheik you have 26 characters. That means you'd have to have a tier list that's 676 teams long.
 

ChozenOne

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First off... Black Luigi. Have you ever heard of Ken+Isai... Marth+Falcon.=top team in world...

Second off... If Jiggs is top tier in teams whom should she replace that is currently top tier material?? She can get gayed too easily by Fox, Marth, and Captain Falcon...

Third off... as stated earlier this is a teams tier list... not a team tier list. Besides... Peach+Marth, Peach+Fox, Peach+ect.= good team mate... Marth+Peach,Marth+Fox, Marth+ect.= good team mate... Fox+Peach, Fox+Marth, Fox+ect. = good team mate... all of the top tier characters work well with each other, and every other character in the game in teams...

Forth off... Jiggs is not really top tier material due to the fact that she doesn't work well with everyone. Her purpose in teams is to survive so her partner can steal her lives, to gay people off the stage, and to rest whenever her partner grabs... There are many charcters whom don't do well 2on1, and cannot grab well...

5th off... Falco is as high as he is on the tier list b/c of his rediculous spike, and his insane combos... he does the damage while his partner KO's... Watch a video between Bombsoldier+Musashi*, and anyone else... Fox+Falco do their own things, and then they win b/c of it. Also even though Falco cannot spam his lazers in teams he can most certainly save his partner with team, and his shine... Falco+Better Recovery= God Tier. He is just too easily gayed to be top tier in any format...

6th off... i enjoy ranting... "pant", "pant"

ChozenOne Out.


*totally spelled wrong...
 

moogle87

Smash Rookie
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Jun 27, 2006
Messages
1
In general, I think Ness is an awesome team player. If it isn't team damage of course. His aresenal can more than annoy two people at once. A pk fire placed in utter chaos works wonders. You can even find time to charge up a pk flash if it gets real chaotic.

I don't think fox is much of a team player. I say fox is really great for one on one and where you can focus on what's happening around you. A confused fox is a dead fox.

It's kinda hard to combo with those top tier characters when all four characters are fighting in a small area. I think that large combos really can't be considered as big a factor in teams then in single play.

Maybe I should go make a friendly fire match, have ness get healed by a fox or something. The other two will not be very happy, no sir.
 

Skywalker

Space Jump
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May 7, 2006
Messages
2,317
t!MmY said:
I concur with Samochan. Kirby is actually better as a partner than he is 1-vs-1. His strength lies in his ability to finish off opponents that are off the stage which happens far more often in doubles, especially when he has a partner that can reliably knock them off. Kirby's attacks are easy to control so you rarely kill your ally, and the hits that you may land will likely be quick and weak. And considering he's small and hard to hit, your partner can usually play as wrecklessly as they like and have little chance of striking Kirby (I've teamed with everything from missile-spamming Samus to F-smashing Marths).

I would think Kirby would be at least somewhere in the middle of a Team Tier List.
Excellent tactics. Lately, all that I've been thinking about was 1-on-1s and free-for-alls but totally forgot about friendly-fire style 2-on-2 matches. That was a good point about Kirby and the Tier List. Still, Kirby should be at least on the high tier list!

Generally though, tier lists should not even exist (except for maybe Pichu :p ) in Melee, and especially not in Brawl; Nintendo should take a note of that. Even then, the original Smash Bros. was more unbalanced than Melee. Take Ness and Kirby for example. They used to pwn but now people call them mediocre.

The original was much slower in pacing than Melee, so nearly any character stood a chance!
 

Uno

Smash Journeyman
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Yes, a perfectly balanced game would be awesome... but it wont happen. Game developers cant keep everything in check, they will end up missing a few things and it WILL be unbalanced to an extent.

and about the list...

676 teams is obviously out of the question.

the one chozenone put out is a good base and should be built off of by looking at the brackets from MLG and see which characters have the most success with as many other chars as possible.
 

ChozenOne

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Uno said:
the one chozenone put out is a good base and should be built off of by looking at the brackets from MLG and see which characters have the most success with as many other chars as possible.
ThankYou Good Sir ^_^
 

Black Luigi

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 25, 2006
Messages
206
Yes, chozenone, I've heard of Ken and Isai, and I know they play Marth and Falcon. However, I've seen Isai play Sheik just as much on that team.

Also, I wasn't saying it couldn't work, just expressing what happens to me. You have to remember that everybody isn't the teammate that Isai is, ya know?
 

Blind

Honorbound
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Jul 15, 2004
Messages
1,055
Jigglypuff is a top tier teammate. All those things you mentioned that Jigglypuff is "just good for"... well, those are all extremely important factors. Being able to take somebody's stock five seconds after they respawn without them having to self destruct is useful. Being able to turn a teammate's grab into a free stock is useful. Being near impossible to edgeguard is useful. Rollout in teams can be much harder to evade. You're ignoring the fact that Puff can keep an opponent at bay with her range and mobility, then dart in to help a teammate when he needs it. Then go back to fighting her opponent. Then go back to help. If you inconvenience one of the opponents enough, you can set your teammate up for a grab then... oh, rest. Jab, and back to fighting.

Jiggs isn't the BEST teammate but she would be in the teams top tier, definitely. Probably ranked somewhere around... 3rd, I think.
 

Drumma_Boi

Smash Ace
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Dec 17, 2004
Messages
949
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Fort Walton Beach, Florida
naaa purin is too light and easily KO'ed on most levels. she could prolly be high tier but iono what does it matter where she is because if u use her to her full extent and it is in ure team u dont want everyone copying ure team just cause she is number one on the tier list like u know most people will do. iono this is a really good descussion topic tho about the team tier lists and whatnot. me and manko get really into team stratagy talks and stuff like that. Keep up the god points everyone. :)
 
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