Tier List Challenge: IMO Marth is not as good as people think

[Ziodyne]

i disagree. how many Captain Falcon's can you say are GREAT competitively? maybe mango?....maybe. how many Peach's? 1? Armada. but look how many great Marth's. Ken, M2K, Ek, Ice, Dr. PP

...uh, we'll, if we're looking at all history, we got Isai who's the OG king of Falcon
there's also silentspectre, darkrain, scar, and hax
currently best falcons are hax and s2j, both of whom are amazing at this game

Ken WAS good, is not THAT good now
M2K is STILL really good, just doesn't really main marth so much as he dual mains with sheik
EK doesn't play anymore afaik
Ice doesn't main Marth anymore, and even when he did I thought he was kinda overrated (still good though)
Dr. PP has a solid, solid Marth
Why did you not mention PPU, who is AMAZING?

 

[KirbyKaze]

"Double edge" sword jokes are (c) Roy.

 

[Kadano]

It is far too early to proclaim such a conclusion. While Marth lacks the strong aerials all other viable characters have, Marth will eventually get the kill if he stays patient, as PP has demonstrated at Apex.
As some have hinted, M2K’s performance with Marth has been somewhat disappointing in the last year or so. But Marth is more than M2K does with him. If you watch sets like him vs SilentWolf at NWMV, you can see that he made lots of mistakes, especially jumping and swinging first.
Now with PP and PPU on the rise, we finally get to see what Marth is capable of again. Unlike M2K, their playstyle is driven by curiosity.
What exactly are you trying to establish with “Marth is low tier” here? Some kind of john in advance?

 

[Bones0]

THIS TOPIC IS POINTLESS.

MY FONT IS SO BIG, IT MUST BE TRUE!

 

[danieljosebatista]

It is far too early to proclaim such a conclusion. While Marth lacks the strong aerials all other viable characters have, Marth will eventually get the kill if he stays patient, as PP has demonstrated at Apex.
As some have hinted, M2K’s performance with Marth has been somewhat disappointing in the last year or so. But Marth is more than M2K does with him. If you watch sets like him vs SilentWolf at NWMV, you can see that he made lots of mistakes, especially jumping and swinging first.
Now with PP and PPU on the rise, we finally get to see what Marth is capable of again. Unlike M2K, their playstyle is driven by curiosity.
What exactly are you trying to establish with “Marth is low tier” here? Some kind of john in advance?

I absolutely don't think he's low tier, but I think he isn't as good as the other high tiers.

 

[JKJ]

I absolutely don't think he's low tier, but I think he isn't as good as the other high tiers.

Well, the general consensus is that you're wrong.

Hate to break it to you.

 

[Max?]

i disagree. how many Captain Falcon's can you say are GREAT competitively? maybe mango?....maybe. how many Peach's? 1? Armada. but look how many great Marth's. Ken, M2K, Ek, Ice, Dr. PP

SS, Darkrain, Hax, s2j, scar, Isai, etc etc. Lots of reallly good Falcon players through out the years who were able to compete at top level.

Marth is very similar to Fox in that he was played extensively as the meta was developing, people have learned how to deal with him, and now Marth mains have to push him and try different things to keep up. Based on the current Meta, it is arguable that other characters are better than him at this point and time (although that argument was stronger a year or so ago, before PP/ppu started to make a splash), however it's clear that his tools are very strong and it has been shown time and time again since the Ken/Isai days that he is a top tier character.

That said, Marth ****ing sucks.

 

[BTmoney]

Well, the general consensus is that you're wrong.

Hate to break it to you.

/thread

 

[LLDL]

marth is broken as ****

 

[RockinRudy]

THIS TOPIC IS POINTLESS.

MY FONT IS SO BIG, IT MUST BE TRUE!

THIS TOPIC IS POINTLESS MY FONT IS BIG AND COLOURFUL, IT MUST BE TRUE! IT'S ALSO UNDERLINED!​

UNDERLINED!!!!​

 

[Max?]

Most of this thread probably mains Falco

 

[Bones0]

Most of this thread probably mains Falco

Most of any thread probably mains Falco. Not exactly a huge leap.

 

[Max?]

Hence why people would think Marth is good

 

[Zhea]

There are prices to pay for being a consistent character. I feel that is where Marth/Shiek derive a lot of their tournament power from. They are safe picks. You also have to remember that the tier list is weighted by tourney results. And Marth happens to counter the 2 most played characters in the game (Spacies). Even if Falcon does win the matchup vs him, he still has no 7:3 matchups to deal with and obliterates mid and low tiers. He is where he should be (on the tier list). Not as good as Fox/Falco/Shiek, just as good as Peach/Puff, a bit better than Falcon and Icies.

 

[danieljosebatista]

Marth happens to counter the 2 most played characters in the game (Spacies). Even if Falcon does win the matchup vs him, he still has no 7:3 .

I think this is one of the biggest misconceptions about Marth. This has to do with the fact that many years ago (or at a low level of play) this was true. In today's metagame, Marth does not have an advantage against spacies unless it's FD. Even then, it's not how people think it is. It's not like chaingrabbing will always lead to a kill.

 

[JKJ]

I think this is one of the biggest misconceptions about Marth. This has to do with the fact that many years ago (or at a low level of play) this was true. In today's metagame, Marth does not have an advantage against spacies unless it's FD. Even then, it's not how people think it is. It's not like chaingrabbing will always lead to a kill.

We really need a buzzer sounds to play when people make posts like this.

"Its not how people think"

"Its not like chaingrabs will always lead to a kill"

It's not the chaingrabs on FD that make it so advantageous for Marth. It's the lack of platforms to escape juggles. And guess what sets up juggles into a kill? Chaingrabbing to a moderate percent.

 

[Zhea]

I think this is one of the biggest misconceptions about Marth. This has to do with the fact that many years ago (or at a low level of play) this was true. In today's metagame, Marth does not have an advantage against spacies unless it's FD. Even then, it's not how people think it is. It's not like chaingrabbing will always lead to a kill.

A contestable point. Marth has on spacies what Shiek has on Falcon, a simple and brutal punish game for any mistake. That bleeds into results. The tier list is weighted by results.

 

[Jolteon]

If you think Marth cannot kill reliably then you aren't converting aerial situations efficiently.

 

[JKJ]

If you think Marth cannot kill reliably then you aren't converting aerial situations efficiently.

^QFT
10char

 

[Dr. Poopoo]

SS, Darkrain, Hax, s2j, scar, Isai, etc etc. Lots of reallly good Falcon players through out the years who were able to compete at top level.

Marth is very similar to Fox in that he was played extensively as the meta was developing, people have learned how to deal with him, and now Marth mains have to push him and try different things to keep up. Based on the current Meta, it is arguable that other characters are better than him at this point and time (although that argument was stronger a year or so ago, before PP/ppu started to make a splash), however it's clear that his tools are very strong and it has been shown time and time again since the Ken/Isai days that he is a top tier character.

That said, Marth ****ing sucks.

you're right about Hax, but those other ones are not great. and i knew people were gonna say stuff like that. thats why i emphasized GREAT

 

[Dr. Poopoo]

...uh, we'll, if we're looking at all history, we got Isai who's the OG king of Falcon
there's also silentspectre, darkrain, scar, and hax
currently best falcons are hax and s2j, both of whom are amazing at this game

Ken WAS good, is not THAT good now
M2K is STILL really good, just doesn't really main marth so much as he dual mains with sheik
EK doesn't play anymore afaik
Ice doesn't main Marth anymore, and even when he did I thought he was kinda overrated (still good though)
Dr. PP has a solid, solid Marth
Why did you not mention PPU, who is AMAZING?

ya i almost said PewPewU lol

 

[RockinRudy]

If you think Marth cannot kill reliably then you aren't converting aerial situations efficiently.

I heard Marth is like Roy.​

Sucks.​

 

[Acryte]

Play Ether.

 

[Bones0]

Play Ether.

New England did.

 

[Max?]

you're right about Hax, but those other ones are not great. and i knew people were gonna say stuff like that. thats why i emphasized GREAT

If you don't think that Isai and Darkrain were great for their time and tenure within the scene, then you have no idea what you are talking about. Scar at his peak was beating top level players and shouldn't be slept on as well. While it's obvious that Ken and m2k's dominance for their time is greater then that of the Falcon equivalents, to say those players were not GREAT is just wrong.

 

[Ziodyne]

you're right about Hax, but those other ones are not great. and i knew people were gonna say stuff like that. thats why i emphasized GREAT

man, you don't know what you're talking about lmao

 

[the_CAM_factor]

watch marth win evo this year, nah jk, maybe

 

[ph00tbag]

I dunno.

If Armada shows up.

Marth is winning in GFs.

 

[Shadow Huan]

If you think Marth cannot kill reliably then you aren't converting aerial situations efficiently.

Marth cannot kill reliably at low/mid %'s if the other person can DI properly. at those %'s what does he have? fsmash? dsmash? out of his aerials only Dair kills at low %'s and it won't kill over the stage

he can maintain control and rack up damage to eventually get the kill, but he lacks a really fast, on stage move that gets kills early; fsmash is not all that fast and dsmash seems to get blocked a lot for a 5 frame move in my experience (tho shield stabs are satisfying when they happen lol)

off stage he kills reliably, once he's in a position to do something about it. that Dair + everything

 

[LKratos]

There's a reason M2K only uses Marth as a counterpick on FD, and chooses to go Sheik every other time. (Most of the time anyway).

Or pokemon stadium
or yoshi's story
or fountain of dreams
or battlefield against peach/jiggs

Please do some research.

Marth cannot kill reliably at low/mid %'s if the other person can DI properly. at those %'s what does he have? fsmash? dsmash? out of his aerials only Dair kills at low %'s and it won't kill over the stage

he can maintain control and rack up damage to eventually get the kill, but he lacks a really fast, on stage move that gets kills early; fsmash is not all that fast and dsmash seems to get blocked a lot for a 5 frame move in my experience (tho shield stabs are satisfying when they happen lol)

off stage he kills reliably, once he's in a position to do something about it. that Dair + everything

Spacies and falcon have to avoid the edge like the plague, Marth can 0-death one of them with a throw near the edge if the marth plays optimally. Sure, Marth can't kill from the middle of a stage without a tipper fsmash at 50%+. Too bad that Marth's defining trait is ability to use spacing to his advantage more than anyone else. Difficulty in killing at low-mid percents on-stage doesn't make a character bad or jiggly would be back down in C-tier

 

[LKratos]

accidental double post

 

[Osennecho]

Quite frankly Marf isn't as good as people think. Niether is Puff. That doesn't mean however, that either is bad enough to have their spot on the tier list changed. There's a difference between "Marf isn't as good as people think" and "Marf is worse then X, Y, and Z that nobody seems to be bringing up.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Marth is really good

 

[choknater]

yeah marth is excellent

let's go PPU for EVO!

 

[007-jake]

Pewpew dat Pewpew. Enough said.

 

[Shadow Huan]

Spacies and falcon have to avoid the edge like the plague, Marth can 0-death one of them with a throw near the edge if the marth plays optimally. Sure, Marth can't kill from the middle of a stage without a tipper fsmash at 50%+. Too bad that Marth's defining trait is ability to use spacing to his advantage more than anyone else. Difficulty in killing at low-mid percents on-stage doesn't make a character bad or jiggly would be back down in C-tier

the entire point of stage control is to be in the middle of the stage. if the opponent is dying at 50%- 100% in the middle of the stage they need to learn how to DI (very light characters/yoshi's story notwithstanding)... or avoid getting hit with a super obvious move. I see very few fsmashes from the new top Marth players. it's good when it hits at least

I never said Marth was bad either. in fact in an earlier post I said

Marth is indeed pretty limited when it comes to killing and recovery; he only has one reliable but slow powerful smash for killing at lowish %s, and it's massively punishable if it misses. good DI on most of marth's other moves keep the oppoent alive for much longer than with other characters... such as the difference between marth's bair and falcon's. falcon's is DI dependant but usually kills much sooner. the fact that he lacks a sex kick hurts him in certain situations too.

all that said, Marth is exactly where he should be on the tier list. he has amazing mobility and stage control, can gimp nearly every character, has an amazing tech chase game and his edge game is about as strong as they come.

he's actually a rather balanced out character, and would be really balanced with a few adjustments imo.

and in the post you quoted I said that he can maintain control and rack up damage to eventually get the kill. you know how he does that? using spacing to his advantage more than anyone else. lol

 

[KirbyKaze]

The whole point of stage control with Marth is to control the middle when you're in the dash dance (generalizes to neutral game) war and then when it shifts to the punishment game where Marth is at advantage it becomes about controlling the space between your opponent and the floor of the level, which includes elements of the mid-stage dash dance spiel but it differs somewhat as other elements such as ease of hit-connection, level of commitment, and the levels of control or other types of reward that can be acquired after landing the hit.

 

[Bones0]

Playing against most characters resembles a king of the hill style game on a steep hill. They have to engage in fisticuffs, but since they have the high ground they are at an advantage, and the hill is steep enough that one solid bop will send the opponent tumbling. Marth's hill is much more gradual. He rarely bops people with one good hit to send them tumbling down the hill and his high ground advantage isn't as distinct as the steeper hill characters, but he's defending the peak of his hill with a huge ass sword. Then you have Falcon whose hill is that rope in gym class, but as easy as it is to knock the person off, he can only do so by throwing precision fast balls at their head.

God damn do I miss House's metaphors.

 

[Son of Slobodan]

I think a lot of people in the thread are getting overly defensive and perceiving OP's opinion as his saying Marth is a bad character. He's just saying he should be moved down a spot or two and hes slightly overrated, but still good.

Regardless, I feel Marth is an incredibly strong character that still has a ton of potential. His movement is arguably the best in the game between his amazing wavedash and dashdance. He lacks straight-up kill moves outside of f-smash, but f-smash is still a fast, powerful move that covers a huge amount of space. It also has lag and it is punishable, IMO it's one of the best designed moves in the game in terms of risk vs reward. More important than straight up kill moves however in today's play, is his fantastic edge-guarding and ability to cover so many options.

Basically, its hard to say a character with such amazing movement, speed, space-control and edge-guarding doesn't deserve to be as highly ranked in a game where these attributes are probably the most desirable in a character.

 

[Deleted member]

Marth cannot kill reliably at low/mid %'s if the other person can DI properly. at those %'s what does he have? fsmash? dsmash? out of his aerials only Dair kills at low %'s and it won't kill over the stage

he can maintain control and rack up damage to eventually get the kill, but he lacks a really fast, on stage move that gets kills early; fsmash is not all that fast and dsmash seems to get blocked a lot for a 5 frame move in my experience (tho shield stabs are satisfying when they happen lol)

There's nothing wrong with inevitability as your kill option. If anything, you could say it's a better option for its absolute certainty. if you have stage control and your opponent cannot do anything effective to you, that player is "already dead" anyway.

waiting is way better than anything like fox's upsmash is in this game.