/thread

[Crystanium]

Twice already do I feel this was a failed attempt at creating a match-up thread. Everyone else seems to have moved on in their own boards, but we Samus mains have nothing. I wanted this to work out, but no one wanted to participate. A few people helped, but not everyone. I went to each board for that certain week, but no one else participated to help me when it came to brawling with these people. I have all that information that I had when I deleted everything here. Only a fool wouldn't save an extra copy of his work. The thing is, no one wants to help, so I can't help anyone who doesn't want to help me.

 

[Crystanium]

-ignore this-

 

[Royta]

FIRST!!!! ... always wanted to do that =)

Sounds like a good idea and I support it, combined with the other matchup-topic we'll be able to cover a lot of ground when it comes down to information (copy pasta the falco-writeup towards here as well?).

There aren't that much Bowser users in our country, with myself being the only one untill recently. I fought them (with Ike but some with Samus), and this is pretty much what I can say:

Samus will treat Bowser like a sandbag, litterally. The autocancel aerials and Zair pretty much destroy him with upB OoS being his only remote way of getting the **** out of that wall of pain we're producing. Especially on BF this works well for us.

There is one problem though, killing the **** thing..
We'll build damage fast but killing him can be troublesome. His upB OoS has the irritating way of killing our kill moves with again spike being our most trusty killer. Most bowser's will mix up their recovery making it hard to spike them. Predict when they'll recover and punish.

Know that downB sends them up a bit first allowing it to be usefull for recovery since it has super armour and is a dangerous move.
When Bowser wants to hurt us, upB will do a good job as will his jabcombo's. Jab->downB works nice for him and his Ftilt does a nice job at killing us.

Does his jab destroy our projectiles btw? anyone know?

 

[hyperstation]

Looking like a really nicely organized guide, Dryn. only 38 chars to go!

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Subscribing.

 

[Ravin]

Everyones jabs destroys our projectiles.
Thats why you mix it up with Zair. :D Force them to approach, punish, Ect.

 

[Royta]

How do people think about Battlefield as a Samus Stage anyway? I used to think about it as a crappy stage when I was new to her (little camping space, you get into close combat very soon) but now I find it to be quite a good stage.
Stage-zair'ing, an insane missile wall thanks to the platforms etc not to mention the excellent platform controle she has with her no-lag aerials.

Any other thoughts?

 

[Ravin]

Any stage with a decent level plateform = Win.

BF is one of Samus's strongest stages.

I also like D plaza, its my CP.

 

[Hylian]

Enjoy your sticky.

 

[tha_carter]

Samus has no 70:30 matchups imo, so right off the bat i disagree.

And a Spamus can turn a completely incompetent Bowser into a sandbag. But, other than that it will be a close match. Samus has no reliable kill move, and bowser naturally lives to higher percentages. Not a good mix.

A good bowser has no problem powershield 90% of any projectile thrown. And bowser has an EXCELLENT approach with a sh flamethrower because of how slow samus' roll/grab is. Bowser has multiple moves
that kill at REALLY low percentage, and can be quite unpredictable. In addition to that, bowser has a bowserbomb as a garunteed follow up to a grounded grab release that kills pre-100%.

Samus can fairly effectively keep her distance and spam. Which is what sets her at the advantage. Patient projectile use and effective followups to those which connect is the best way to win this matchup.

55:45 Samus' favor

 

[Crystanium]

Thank you for the information, tha_carter. I brawled with two Bowser mains earlier today. This is a part of my practical match-up information. After brawling with these two Bowser mains, I thought that perhaps it should not be 70:30, as you have said. I came to the thought that perhaps it should be reduced to 65-35, Samus' favor.

Liquid Gen and Phiddlesticks thinks that number would be fine, though Liquid Gen thinks it could be 60:40. Phiddlesticks does not seem too happy. Of course, you have given the number on which you think it should be. I previously had it at 70:30, simply because there were Bowser mains there who thought it should be that number in the previous thread I had created.

I would appreciate anyones input regarding the match-up ratio. And tha_carter, thanks again for your input.

 

[Liquid Gen]

Lul.

I'll have the matches up whenever I can get an uploader; perhaps those'll help?

 

[Crystanium]

Lul.

I'll have the matches up whenever I can get an uploader; perhaps those'll help?

Those would be excellent, Liquid Gen. I think it'd help everyone in the Samus boards get an idea, especially for those who have never brawled against Bowser, let alone a very skilled one (or two, in this case).

 

[DelxDoom]

Samus has no 70:30 matchups imo, so right off the bat i disagree.

And a Spamus can turn a completely incompetent Bowser into a sandbag. But, other than that it will be a close match. Samus has no reliable kill move, and bowser naturally lives to higher percentages. Not a good mix.

A good bowser has no problem powershield 90% of any projectile thrown. And bowser has an EXCELLENT approach with a sh flamethrower because of how slow samus' roll/grab is. Bowser has multiple moves
that kill at REALLY low percentage, and can be quite unpredictable. In addition to that, bowser has a bowserbomb as a garunteed follow up to a grounded grab release that kills pre-100%.

Samus can fairly effectively keep her distance and spam. Which is what sets her at the advantage. Patient projectile use and effective followups to those which connect is the best way to win this matchup.

55:45 Samus' favor

Iono gonna discuss this.
Bowser isn't the hardest character to spike, if he recovers out of spike territory (high) the Samus player should punish that.

Powershield I'll give you. Powershield I also give every character. However, zair kills sh fire approaches and also klaw jump approaches. Once Bowser is off the ground for a little while, due to counter dsmashes or zair followups or whatever, uair and fair are really effective vs Bowser.
I disagree with unpredictable kill moves... if you just know the other character, you should expect things such as high uairs, bairs, etc. Bowser is a close range fighter with decently long ranged melee attacks.
I'm not too sure about the bowser bomb out of ground grab release - can't you DI the rise hit to avoid the kill slam?


idk lol

 

[Ravin]

I think carter forgets Samus is a heavy, and it does not kill her pre 100.

id agree as well, 65-35 seems reasonable. Samus has ranged and more of a versatility against Bowser. It doesnt matter about her lack of kill more, if you can surf his HP up to 200%, or whatever. all of your moves have the potential of killing.

 

[Crystanium]

I think carter forgets Samus is a heavy, and it does not kill her pre 100.

id agree as well, 65-35 seems reasonable. Samus has ranged and more of a versatility against Bowser. It doesnt matter about her lack of kill more, if you can surf his HP up to 200%, or whatever. all of your moves have the potential of killing.

When I was brawling with Liquid Gen, I had to think about what I would do to KO his Bowser. It really wasn't that easy to KO, especially since the Up+B OoS is annoying and is often used when you're close. Both of us were able to manage living up to at least the 180% range. Samus is the seventh heaviest character, but don't be surprised at being KO'ed at a two-digit number. A simple u-air KO'ed me, and the attack left me at approximately 100%.

 

[Mind.Game]

Good guide :D I like the update.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

In close range on the ground, bowser wins against samus. His Up-B OOS is too good, so you won't be able to hit his shield close range and not get hit, even with a spaced f-tilt. He can either drop his shield and do his own F-tilt or Up-b if you are closer. Bowser's recovery is somewhat predictable, but watch out if bowser is recovering high and he bowser-bombs down to the ledge. Its fast as ****. Uair and fair are really good against bowser, he will get shield-stabbed a lot. Also, bowser is one of the easiest characters to jab lock, so try and capitalize on it.

 

[Ravin]

I know bowsers other moves kill Samus realistically easily.

His Up OoS is decent, but I prefer Samus's better
Still Samus does have the edge over Bowser.

 

[The Milk Monster]

Battlefield is so nice for Samus, lots easier to land bair's, and much better missile approaches.
Haven't really played enough Bowser's, or really any for that matter, to throw my input on that subject.

 

[Crystanium]

I know bowsers other moves kill Samus realistically easily.

His Up OoS is decent, but I prefer Samus's better
Still Samus does have the edge over Bowser.

I think Samus' Up+B OoS isn't as good as Bowser's. If she misses, she's easily punished, unless there is a platform around. When Bowser Up+B OoS, he is able to move around left or right, and if his attack hits, his opponent is left in the air. Of course, if both Up+B OoS right next to each other, they'll both cancel out.

 

[Bowser King]

Iono gonna discuss this.
Bowser isn't the hardest character to spike, if he recovers out of spike territory (high) the Samus player should punish that.

Powershield I'll give you. Powershield I also give every character. However, zair kills sh fire approaches and also klaw jump approaches. Once Bowser is off the ground for a little while, due to counter dsmashes or zair followups or whatever, uair and fair are really effective vs Bowser.
I disagree with unpredictable kill moves... if you just know the other character, you should expect things such as high uairs, bairs, etc. Bowser is a close range fighter with decently long ranged melee attacks.
I'm not too sure about the bowser bomb out of ground grab release - can't you DI the rise hit to avoid the kill slam?


idk lol

If the bowser players gettign spiked a lot, he's recovering wrong. You go for dair, we use fortress and take advantage of Invincibility frames.

Bowser has a huge amount of kill moves. Bair, Uair, ftilt, dtilt, Out of release bowser bomb, Utilt (likely not going to work on samus) , >b (at higher precent), ^b (likely not going to work on samus) and his smashes.

It does. You can try to air dodge but chances are, your going to get hit (timing is hard).

-Bowser King

 

[Royta]

we'll bring bowser into 150+ damage in like 10 seconds, but killing him will be harder then telling 3drealms to release Duke Nukem Forever...ohkay that is an overstatement but you get the general idea.

Keep him away from you at all costs, only get in close if he's above you since upB OoS is his only option then and your lagless air moves will slaughter him.
Spikes won't work on good Bowsers. Like with Ike, his recovery is crap, but it's so crap that people have learned to turn it into a good somewhat unpredictable recovery.

Also Bowser King I like your sig.

Also about the Bowser Bomb, he can also do that out of a jab-cancel if you're not prepared for it. This kills pretty hard, and you'll never see it coming if the Bowser knows when to do it and reads you right.

 

[n00b]

Thanks to this thread I'm gonna switch mains to Bowser. >:3

 

[Crystanium]

All right, everyone, it appears that some in the Bowser board would agree with the match-up ratio as 65-35. A Meta Knight main went in and thought that would be a good one. Yet, another person says it should be 55-45. Personally, I just cannot agree with that. I think it would be good to see if it should be 65-35 or 60-40. Does anyone else have any thoughts on this?

Oh, and just for a heads up, we will be continuing to discuss Bowser until this coming Sunday.

 

[DelxDoom]

If the bowser players gettign spiked a lot, he's recovering wrong. You go for dair, we use fortress and take advantage of Invincibility frames.

Bowser has a huge amount of kill moves. Bair, Uair, ftilt, dtilt, Out of release bowser bomb, Utilt (likely not going to work on samus) , >b (at higher precent), ^b (likely not going to work on samus) and his smashes.

It does. You can try to air dodge but chances are, your going to get hit (timing is hard).

-Bowser King

Alright but here's the thing.
An experienced Bowser versus a nonexperienced Samus has the advantage, not gonna dispute it.
But I believe that an experienced Bowser will have a hard time vs an experienced Samus because Samus can cut down Bowser's options with her moveset.

Bowser has one chance to survive Samus's edgeguarding, and Samus has many chances at gimping Bowser. I know it's going to be tough to gimp since Bowser has invincible frames and airdodges at his disposal, but his general size and the fact that his up b is not the most versatile thing ever (it gets decent horizontal distance, meh vertical) means that experienced Samus mains will shoot until they can dair spike... Bowser doesn't have the means to fight back as Samus shoots stuff at him.


Samus's zair outranges all of Bowser's kill moves. Some of them will be coming at different angles that zair will not affect, like uair... this is solved by bombs and smart airdodging.
Of course, Bowser should have ways around these, I just believe the somewhat larger advantage goes to Samus who can
-take advantage of bowser's recovery for hopeful kills
-outrange bowser
-"combo" bowser (kinda... b/c it's brawl)

Bowser can
-survive
-kill early
-damage more or less the same as Samus
-if gets through Samus's ranged place, can go crazy on Samus (kinda... b/c it's brawl)

 

[Crystanium]

All right, everyone, thanks for those who participated and contributed in the discussion concerning Bowser. We are now discussing Captain Falcon, and we have until next Sunday. If you don't have any experience against Falcon, you are more than welcome to participate with me in brawling with Falcon mains in the Captain Falcon board. For those of you who do have experience, please share.

 

[The Milk Monster]

Well, in regards to the Falcon match up:

Samus has these advantages(Plus more)

1. Missile and zair spam, on and off the course
2. Her off the edge game in general can keep him off the course.
3. Juggling with uair and fair.
4. He's a taller target, so easier to hit with projectiles, zair, and bair.
5. The poor Cap's priority is terrible.


The Cap has these:

1. If he gets in close, he'll deal some serious damage.(though it will be trickier since Samus is a balloon of helium.)
2. Samus's moves, if missed, easily punishable by Falcon's arsenal of powerful hits.
3. Falcon's jab cancel to grab game is awesome.
What else?

 

[Crystanium]

Well, in regards to the Falcon match up:

Samus has these advantages(Plus more)

1. Missile and zair spam, on and off the course
2. Her off the edge game in general can keep him off the course.
3. Juggling with uair and fair.
4. He's a taller target, so easier to hit with projectiles, zair, and bair.
5. The poor Cap's priority is terrible.


The Cap has these:

1. If he gets in close, he'll deal some serious damage.(though it will be trickier since Samus is a balloon of helium.)
2. Samus's moves, if missed, easily punishable by Falcon's arsenal of powerful hits.
3. Falcon's jab cancel to grab game is awesome.
What else?

If Samus does hang around the edge, Falcon is capable of using b-air or u-air against her, which often results into a stage spike. Keep in mind that he is an aerial character, so his attacks in the air are going to be a bit more superior than Samus'.

Falcon does have a good jab going on for him, however. Often times, if the jab is shielded, Falcon simply needs to cancel his jab into a grab. He is also capable of using his Falcon Dive (Up+B) out of his jab cancel, which is an effective method, since the first thing an opponent would try to do to stop Falcon's multi-jab is shield. Spot-dodging won't work.

Also, since Falcon moves faster than Samus, he is like Samus in that he can also get in a good amount of damage on his opponent. His u-air is one of the best aerials, I'd say, and there really isn't any point in trying to use d-air against it, since it comes out quick.

 

[Oddler]

Why would you do this in alphabetical order and not starting with Top Tiers to make this easily be more useful from the get-go.

 

[Crystanium]

Why would you do this in alphabetical order and not starting with Top Tiers to make this easily be more useful from the get-go.

The tier list is subject to change, but something organized in alphabetical order is not, except for the information in it. Furthermore, let's say I were to begin a Samus guide early on when Super Smash Bros. Brawl was released. I wouldn't know who would be top-tier. The same idea may be applied to the tier list now. Pit went down in the tier list, while Zero Suit Samus went up.

 

[Royta]

One small thing I noticed when using Bowser against a Samus main yesterday, NEVER use a ledge-attack as Samus. Bowser's downsmash has way higher priority and that can lead to an easy and free kill (or loads of free damage)

 

[The Milk Monster]

1. If Samus does hang around the edge, Falcon is capable of using b-air or u-air against her, which often results into a stage spike. Keep in mind that he is an aerial character, so his attacks in the air are going to be a bit more superior than Samus'.

2. Falcon does have a good jab going on for him, however. Often times, if the jab is shielded, Falcon simply needs to cancel his jab into a grab. He is also capable of using his Falcon Dive (Up+B) out of his jab cancel, which is an effective method, since the first thing an opponent would try to do to stop Falcon's multi-jab is shield. Spot-dodging won't work.

3. Also, since Falcon moves faster than Samus, he is like Samus in that he can also get in a good amount of damage on his opponent. His u-air is one of the best aerials, I'd say, and there really isn't any point in trying to use d-air against it, since it comes out quick.

1. Very true, that's why with Samus I usually try to jump around on the edge, so I don't get stage spiked.

2. Those jab cancels get me so much. Was not aware Falcon Dive could be done out of a jab cancel, that's a good thing to know.

3. Falcon can juggle with his nair and uair so well. Uair will come out significantly quicker then dair, you'd have to time it like you had Wifi lag or something.

 

[Psychoace]

If however samus tries to go for d-air off the edge she could quite possibly be walking into a b-air spike or falcon dive. Jumping around the edge is a lot more different than when your going for a kill or attempted gimp.

 

[Crystanium]

If however samus tries to go for d-air off the edge she could quite possibly be walking into a b-air spike or falcon dive. Jumping around the edge is a lot more different than when your going for a kill or attempted gimp.

When I was brawling with ToKneeOrNotToKnee, I was aware of the fact that he could Falcon Dive me if I did try to spike him. Falcon may be easier to spike if he uses his Raptor Boost, though that has the potential to spike. I did land it twice when my brother was returning with the Raptor Boost.

 

[The Milk Monster]

If however samus tries to go for d-air off the edge she could quite possibly be walking into a b-air spike or falcon dive. Jumping around the edge is a lot more different than when your going for a kill or attempted gimp.

The thing with Samus's spike, you kind of have to predict what their going to do and plan accordingly, though Captain Falcon can throw out like two uair's with one of your dair's, so I suppose if you time it like a psychic, you can land one, but you'd have to be pretty lucky. You'd have more of a chance of landing a bair stage spike.

 

[Crystanium]

The thing with Samus's spike, you kind of have to predict what their going to do and plan accordingly, though Captain Falcon can throw out like two uair's with one of your dair's, so I suppose if you time it like a psychic, you can land one, but you'd have to be pretty lucky. You'd have more of a chance of landing a bair stage spike.

I'm wondering if you could use Homing Missiles to mess with the Falcon Dive. I haven't done that to any Falcon player who has tried recovering that way. Falcon's Falcon Dive is simply a grab, so even an attempt to spike can be countered when Falcon grabs Samus. And, I'll have to admit, I've had my moments where I was stage spiked when I tried spiking Falcon.

 

[The Milk Monster]

I'm wondering if you could use Homing Missiles to mess with the Falcon Dive. I haven't done that to any Falcon player who has tried recovering that way. Falcon's Falcon Dive is simply a grab, so even an attempt to spike can be countered when Falcon grabs Samus. And, I'll have to admit, I've had my moments where I was stage spiked when I tried spiking Falcon.

Well, I would imagine because the lack of knockback it wouldn't do much, unless you timed it like perfect.
What I want to get, and on video, is a player trying to recover, and I full charge shot reversal them backwards, and it stage spikes them, oh my.
And as have I, it sucks so bad, it's so degrading.

 

[Psychoace]

I think if a homing missile exploded at the point before falcon grabbed the stage, it might ruin him but he would regain it back potentially setting up for a spike. I can't remember if it (the missile) gets canceled out by the invincibility frames on re-grab or what. We recover pretty close and under the stage though, I don't know if would hit, maybe in some situations.

 

[The Milk Monster]

I think if a homing missile exploded at the point before falcon grabbed the stage, it might ruin him but he would regain it back potentially setting up for a spike. I can't remember if it (the missile) gets canceled out by the invincibility frames on re-grab or what. We recover pretty close and under the stage though, I don't know if would hit, maybe in some situations.

Yeah no doubt it'd be ridiculously situational, a Samus player shouldn't rely on this tactic to gimp your recovery.