Thought Experiment

[A1lion835]

I'm going to post two different scenarios. I request that you fully think about the first scenario before reading the second.

Scenario 1: You are put in a sealed room with the female of your choosing (if you're interested in guys, adjust as you see fit). There is only one door in and out of the room. Regardless of how your friend feels about it, you are allowed to do anything to/with them over the course of one hour (hint: sex). You know that at the end of the hour, both of you will take a pill that will make you forget everything about the encounter and then leave the room. You may take the pill whenever you want before the hour expires, but must take it before leaving. Once you take the pill, you immediately leave. This room has a special property that lets the people inside leave it in the same state as when they entered; any damage (or babies!) that happen to either of you are negated.

There are no consequences to whatever you do inside the room, but you cannot remember anything about the encounter. You do not even remember when you choose to take the pill. What do you do?

Scenario 2: You live in a universe in which there is no God, and consequently, no afterlife. That means that as soon as you die -- which will eventually happen -- you will cease to exist and remember nothing of your life, or how it ended. The only control you have over this is choosing to die earlier than natural causes would dictate. What do you do?

Most importantly: do you see a significant difference between the two scenarios? If so, what?

 

[ballin4life]

The obvious difference is that only you "take a pill" in the second scenario.

Also in the first you know exactly when this will happen, but in the second you don't know when this will happen.


I have thought about the movie Groundhog day, and in that kind of a scenario I would probably be much more likely to do "wrong" things because it gets reset every morning.

 

[Theftz22]

The difference is that their are consequences to your behavior in the second one.

DERP

Did you make this topic while you were horny as ****? ****** someone irl will get you jail time, hate, and social rejection.

 

[A1lion835]

The obvious difference is that only you "take a pill" in the second scenario.

And what difference does this make to you? If I don't exist, I sure as hell won't care whether or not everyone else still does.

The difference is that their are consequences to your behavior in the second one.

DERP

Did you make this topic while you were horny as ****? ****** someone irl will get you jail time, hate, and social rejection.

You miss the point in your rather flame-oriented post. The idea is that I kill myself after it and stop existing -- and since I don't exist, nothing I did while existing matters (to me). Because I can't remember it.

And to respond to your rhetorical question, yes, I was obviously extremely horny while thinking about philosophy. Why else would I post a question where I hope to spark debate and explore my own mind? Clearly, that thought pattern can only occur when my left hand is wrapped tightly around my own engorged member.


Edit: Long family dinner coming up. I'll try to respond to new posts as soon as I'm free.

 

[_Keno_]

And what difference does this make to you? If I don't exist, I sure as hell won't care whether or not everyone else still does.

Well, thats just you then. I definitely care about what happens to the world after I die.

 

[Darxmarth23]

I'm going to post two different scenarios. I request that you fully think about the first scenario before reading the second.

]Scenario 1: You are put in a sealed room with the female of your choosing (if you're interested in guys, adjust as you see fit). There is only one door in and out of the room. Regardless of how your friend feels about it, you are allowed to do anything to/with them over the course of one hour (hint: sex). You know that at the end of the hour, both of you will take a pill that will make you forget everything about the encounter and then leave the room. You may take the pill whenever you want before the hour expires, but must take it before leaving. This room has a special property that lets the people inside leave it in the same state as when they entered; any damage (or babies!) that happen to either of you are negated.There are no consequences to whatever you do inside the room, but you cannot remember anything about the encounter. You do not even remember when you choose to take the pill. What do you do?

Do I know that I will take the pill before entering the room? If I was totally malicious (coming from my ethics, my views on rapists etc.) I would take the pill right when I enter the room, do my business and then make her take the pill right as we exit. I remember the experience, she doesn't.

What I would personally do? If I knew that there would be no repercussions, I would probably not do so because of my ethics. I don't think I would be able to bring myself to do it. But I will admit, it would give it thought while in there.

Scenario 2: You live in a universe in which there is no God, and consequently, no afterlife. That means that as soon as you die -- which will eventually happen -- you will cease to exist and remember nothing of your life, or how it ended. The only control you have over this is choosing to die earlier than natural causes would dictate. What do you do?

Do I know that there is no God? Is it definite?

If I know that there is no God then I would probably do whatever the hell I want to, breaking one ethical barrier after the other over time.

Most importantly: do you see a significant difference between the two scenarios? If so, what?

For me, the significant difference would be the amount of time I have. One hour vs. one lifetime. I'd be able to bring myself to do something that I wouldn't normally agree with in one lifetime as opposed to one hour because I simply have the time to do so.

Also the other difference would be that one situation is controlled. You really have only a few options.
The second situation isn't nearly as controlled because I'm inferring that I'm in the world with others who know that there is no God too. Everyone is as capable as I am at doing what we want.

If I experience the first scenario while I'm in the second one, I'm pretty sure depending on how much I've neglected the ethics I've been raised to accept, I would probably do it. I think most people would.

 

[ballin4life]

And what difference does this make to you? If I don't exist, I sure as hell won't care whether or not everyone else still does.

Uh... that's not my fault...

If I were in such a scenario, I would want to leave the world happy, and part of my happiness in that scenario is thinking that the world and the people in it are going to be happy.

Let's say I decide to go outside today, **** and murder 10 people, and then shoot myself in the head. As per my hypothetical, I stop existing after I die. It turns out that not existing gives me a lot of freedom. Why should I let myself grow old and die peacefully when (from my viewpoint) the same result is achieved my going out, wreaking havoc, and the killing myself?

So you're saying that religion is the only thing keeping you from doing that?

Personally, I would still prefer living longer. I am happier with living longer and doing the things I want to do than I would be killing a bunch of people and then killing myself (lol that I even have to say this). Even someone who doesn't think anything is wrong with killing people will probably prefer to be free and alive rather than imprisoned or dead. The ones that don't are the ones that do go on killing sprees.

So let's suppose you're in a similar situation to Groundhog Day. However, you know that some actions will lead to you reliving the day again, and some will leave you to stop existing. You don't know what these are and they change every time you restart your day. Wouldn't you be more inclined to have some fun (**** and shoot some people), if you knew you had the same chance to escape as if you sat quietly and read a book?

Confused about where you are going with this.

I would prefer to continue repeating Groundhog Day than to not exist, and I'm not sure what that criteria had to do with anything.

Also I don't think ****** and killing people would be fun. The reason I might be inclined to do things like this in a Groundhog Day scenario is because actions don't have consequences and it would be like an experiment to see what happens. But as long as I think that there are actual people out there and that I would be doing harm to them (not really the case in Groundhog Day because everything resets) then I wouldn't do anything of this sort.


Anyway, basically your argument is that the only thing preventing people from doing immoral things is religion, which simply isn't the case EVEN IF people have these violent urges, because if they do these immoral things they get killed or thrown in jail which is worse than just suppressing these urges.

 

[Darxmarth23]

Anyway, basically your argument is that the only thing preventing people from doing immoral things is religion, which simply isn't the case EVEN IF people have these violent urges, because if they do these immoral things they get killed or thrown in jail which is worse than just suppressing these urges.

Exactly.
And if you'll allow me to expand on that:
@A1lion835
Even if we knew that there is no god, even if we knew that there would be no consequences, I think most people would approach scenario one as "This isn't right. Not because of my religion but my ethics." and scenario two as "Even though there aren't gonna be any consequences after death, there certainly can be consequences before it. I should think rationally for my best outcome because punishment sucks."

Personally again, I would break past some of my ethical barriers, but my fear of punishment from the law, something I can't escape, would keep me from breaking it. So I wouldn't go **** or kill anyone because I still face the consequences on this planet, and I still probably wouldn't be able break my ethical barrier that keeps me from ****** and killing because I feel like it for quite some time.

 

[Dre89]

What happens if I just kill the girl?

I won't remember it, but I will find it odd that she didn't come out of the room as well.

 

[Theftz22]

You miss the point in your rather flame-oriented post. The idea is that I kill myself after it and stop existing -- and since I don't exist, nothing I did while existing matters (to me). Because I can't remember it.

And to respond to your rhetorical question, yes, I was obviously extremely horny while thinking about philosophy. Why else would I post a question where I hope to spark debate and explore my own mind? Clearly, that thought pattern can only occur when my left hand is wrapped tightly around my own engorged member.


Edit: Long family dinner coming up. I'll try to respond to new posts as soon as I'm free.

So it only applies to those who find absolutely no value in life.

 

[Seikend]

For the first scenario, I'd take the pill at the start, and have wonderful sexy times with my partner (Yes, I'm being a spoil sport and not considering a scenario where the consequences would be potentially negative. But I don't think that's too relevant).

Just to be fair though, if I was meant to take part with someone who it would be considered a bad thing to go into the room with, I'd not do anything anyway. Even though there are no future consequences, The act itself wouldn't be enjoyable to me, due to a personal guilt.

In the second scenario, I'd choose to live until I die of natural causes.

I can't figure out what the parallels between the scenarios are even meant to be. I see a significant difference, and no links between them. Maybe I've just stopped doing this thinking business for too long, or I'm just plain dumb. An explanation from anyone to get my head going would be much appreciated.

 

[MK26]

For the first scenario, I'd take the pill at the start, and have wonderful sexy times with my partner (Yes, I'm being a spoil sport and not considering a scenario where the consequences would be potentially negative. But I don't think that's too relevant).

Just to be fair though, if I was meant to take part with someone who it would be considered a bad thing to go into the room with, I'd not do anything anyway. Even though there are no future consequences, The act itself wouldn't be enjoyable to me, due to a personal guilt.

In the second scenario, I'd choose to live until I die of natural causes.

I can't figure out what the parallels between the scenarios are even meant to be. I see a significant difference, and no links between them. Maybe I've just stopped doing this thinking business for too long, or I'm just plain dumb. An explanation from anyone to get my head going would be much appreciated.

Scenario 1: you have 1 hour to do whatever you want, whether it be illegal, immoral, unethical, whatever, and once that hour is up and you leave the room, there are no consequences to your actions.

Scenario 2: you have 1 lifetime to do whatever you want, whether it be illegal, immoral, unethical, whatever, and once your time is up and you pass on there are no consequences to your actions.

Of course, scenario 1 ignores the possibility that the girl knocks you out or otherwise incapacitates you...and scenario 2 ignores the fact that there will still be people in the 'room' after you leave, who will not have taken their pill, and potentially may have their behaviours or actions changed because of what you did to them.

 

[Seikend]

Scenario 1: you have 1 hour to do whatever you want, whether it be illegal, immoral, unethical, whatever, and once that hour is up and you leave the room, there are no consequences to your actions.

Scenario 2: you have 1 lifetime to do whatever you want, whether it be illegal, immoral, unethical, whatever, and once your time is up and you pass on there are no consequences to your actions.

Of course, scenario 1 ignores the possibility that the girl knocks you out or otherwise incapacitates you...and scenario 2 ignores the fact that there will still be people in the 'room' after you leave, who will not have taken their pill, and potentially may have their behaviours or actions changed because of what you did to them.

Aah, okay. Thanks very much.


The difference is that whilst the second scenario may have no consequences when you die, by acting immoral, unethical etc. , there are potential consequences in the processes to the end.

I.E. Whilst death is inevitable, punishments on the way to your death (jail, social rejection etc.) can be avoided by acting morally.

On the other hand, in the first situation you cannot be imprisoned, be socially rejected etc. The only potential process consequences can occur in one hour, from one person (or two I guess, if you include yourself). Therefore the process consequences are far less severe in the first situation than the second situation.

 

[A1lion835]

Sorry, I crashed last night.

Well, thats just you then. I definitely care about what happens to the world after I die.

Then maybe this is just how I think, but why do you care about something you'll never know?

Do I know that I will take the pill before entering the room? If I was totally malicious (coming from my ethics, my views on rapists etc.) I would take the pill right when I enter the room, do my business and then make her take the pill right as we exit. I remember the experience, she doesn't.

You know all the details before you enter.

Sorry. I neglected to say that you must immediately leave the room after taking the pill.

Uh... that's not my fault...

If I were in such a scenario, I would want to leave the world happy, and part of my happiness in that scenario is thinking that the world and the people in it are going to be happy.

Why? If all of society is left in the "room" after you die, knowing that eventually they will all follow you in perfect condition, why do you care what happens?

@A1lion835
Even if we knew that there is no god, even if we knew that there would be no consequences, I think most people would approach scenario one as "This isn't right. Not because of my religion but my ethics." and scenario two as "Even though there aren't gonna be any consequences after death, there certainly can be consequences before it. I should think rationally for my best outcome because punishment sucks."

Personally again, I would break past some of my ethical barriers, but my fear of punishment from the law, something I can't escape, would keep me from breaking it. So I wouldn't go **** or kill anyone because I still face the consequences on this planet, and I still probably wouldn't be able break my ethical barrier that keeps me from ****** and killing because I feel like it for quite some time.

In #2, you can die before going to jail.

What happens if I just kill the girl?

I won't remember it, but I will find it odd that she didn't come out of the room as well.

Can't let you do that, Starfox.
The magical room returns her to her previous state. Alive.
(It's like magic!)

So it only applies to those who find absolutely no value in life.

What's the value in an hour no one will remember?
What's the value in a lifetime you won't remember?

For the first scenario, I'd take the pill at the start, and have wonderful sexy times with my partner (Yes, I'm being a spoil sport and not considering a scenario where the consequences would be potentially negative. But I don't think that's too relevant).

Just to be fair though, if I was meant to take part with someone who it would be considered a bad thing to go into the room with, I'd not do anything anyway. Even though there are no future consequences, The act itself wouldn't be enjoyable to me, due to a personal guilt.

I neglected to mention that you leave the room immediately after taking the pill. :/ My bad.

Scenario 1: you have 1 hour to do whatever you want, whether it be illegal, immoral, unethical, whatever, and once that hour is up and you leave the room, there are no consequences to your actions.

Scenario 2: you have 1 lifetime to do whatever you want, whether it be illegal, immoral, unethical, whatever, and once your time is up and you pass on there are no consequences to your actions.

Of course, scenario 1 ignores the possibility that the girl knocks you out or otherwise incapacitates you...and scenario 2 ignores the fact that there will still be people in the 'room' after you leave, who will not have taken their pill, and potentially may have their behaviours or actions changed because of what you did to them.

Thx for the explanation. I'd like to add that you can conclude your hour/lifetime whenever you wish before the time limit is up.

I think we can safely ignore you being knocked out in the first scenario. In the second scenario, while there are people in the "room," you won't remember what you did, and once they leave, neither will they.

Aah, okay. Thanks very much.

The difference is that whilst the second scenario may have no consequences when you die, by acting immoral, unethical etc. , there are potential consequences in the processes to the end.

I.E. Whilst death is inevitable, punishments on the way to your death (jail, social rejection etc.) can be avoided by acting morally.

I never said you had to live to see jail time.

On the other hand, in the first situation you cannot be imprisoned, be socially rejected etc. The only potential process consequences can occur in one hour, from one person (or two I guess, if you include yourself). Therefore the process consequences are far less severe in the first situation than the second situation.

Everything that happens to you while in the room is undone when you leave. So there are no real consequences. After your death in #2 (like taking the pill in #1!), there are no real consequences.

 

[ballin4life]

I would rather be in jail alive than dead. Life is about being happy while you are alive. I don't do things that will make me unhappy. One of the important parts of my happiness is making other people happy too.

 

[Theftz22]

It's not valuable after the fact, but living a life of happiness matters during the time you're alive, how can you not see this?

Let me correct my previous statement: So it only applies to those who find absolutely no value in their life, or the lives of others.

 

[A1lion835]

I would rather be in jail alive than dead. Life is about being happy while you are alive. I don't do things that will make me unhappy. One of the important parts of my happiness is making other people happy too.

Why? I used to believe these kinds of things. How can YOU know that life is about being happy? And do you ONLY do things that make you happy, regardless of how others feel?

It's not valuable after the fact, but living a life of happiness matters during the time you're alive, how can you not see this?

Let me correct my previous statement: So it only applies to those who find absolutely no value in their life, or the lives of others.

I don't see that, but I feel like I've lost the argument now that you've said "How can you not see this?" Well done, sir.

I don't see value in a life that you can't remember afterward, just as I don't see value in an hour I won't know happened. Assuming that all people see value in their lives, and saying that's definitely the right viewpoint, is borderline foolish. There are people killing themselves (that's an entirely separate issue I argue about). Do they see value?

 

[GwJ]

Sorry, I crashed last night.

Then maybe this is just how I think, but why do you care about something you'll never know?

Why do you care about a god if you'll never know if it's real?

 

[A1lion835]

Why do you care about a god if you'll never know if it's real?

I care about people who don't believe in God. I'm saying that a universe without God isn't one worth living in.

And if he exists, I'll meet him after I die.

 

[GwJ]

If you don't think a godless universe isn't one worth living in, then kill yourself if that's what'll make you feel like you've done the most efficient thing.

 

[ballin4life]

Why? I used to believe these kinds of things. How can YOU know that life is about being happy? And do you ONLY do things that make you happy, regardless of how others feel?

How can I know? Uh, because it's my life?

I think that people by definition only do things that make them happy (well, happiest out of their alternatives - so someone might choose to do something painful because it is the best alternative in that person's mind).

So of course I only do things that make myself happy. It's just that "how others feel" is an important component to my happiness.

I don't see value in a life that you can't remember afterward, just as I don't see value in an hour I won't know happened. Assuming that all people see value in their lives, and saying that's definitely the right viewpoint, is borderline foolish. There are people killing themselves (that's an entirely separate issue I argue about). Do they see value?[/color]

It has value while it's still going on, while you can remember it.

If you don't think a godless universe isn't one worth living in, then kill yourself if that's what'll make you feel like you've done the most efficient thing.

Yeah this is going to a strange place, but don't these same things apply even with God? Like, it's pointless to live now because you are just going to go to heaven, so why not hurry up and get there?

And I still love the fact that you're basically saying that you wouldn't care about your family or friends if there weren't a God.

 

[GwJ]

A1, if your reason for believing in god is that life will be pointless without one, then you should feel bad for such a horrid reason.

 

[A1lion835]

How can I know? Uh, because it's my life?

So you're saying YOUR life is about being happy. Not life in general.

A1, if your reason for believing in god is that life will be pointless without one, then you should feel bad for such a horrid reason.

Not only do I not understand why I should feel bad if that were the case, but that's not an accurate portrayal of my views.

 

[GwJ]

If it's not your view, then why'd you bother bringing it up? No one takes people who believe that seriously anyway. No one is really even taking this thread seriously either.

 

[Theftz22]

The hour has value, during the hour.

The life has value, during the life. Life being proportionately more valuable to the difference in time from the hour.

Clear cut I think.

 

[A1lion835]

If it's not your view, then why'd you bother bringing it up? No one takes people who believe that seriously anyway. No one is really even taking this thread seriously either.

When did I ever say I only believed in God because I liked that universe more?

I'd feel quite sad if no one took my views seriously. Oh wait, I'm under 18, my country does that all the time. FML.

The hour has value, during the hour.

The life has value, during the life. Life being proportionately more valuable to the difference in time from the hour.

Clear cut I think.

How about this: you have US$100, and know that the US currency will no longer be accepted by anyone in one hour. However, anything you buy with the money at the end of the our disappears, and you forget ever using it.

Does the money have value, during that hour?

The two choices in the OP are meant to resemble each other. I know some people would do whatever they wanted in the room -- but I doubt they would shoot themselves IRL.

 

[\/aarsivius]

Scenario 1: I am in a secluded room (to us) with the female of my choosing. I think it's pretty obvious what i'd do. ENOUGH WITH THE INNUENDOS FROM ME.

Scenario 2: I would still be a good person, because even though there are no post-mortem consequences, there is still two things that a few people would forget about: morality and guilt. I would rather die knowing I led the best life I could rather than knowing that I went out everyday, shot some people then ***** another 10 people.

 

[ballin4life]

How about this: you have US$100, and know that the US currency will no longer be accepted by anyone in one hour. However, anything you buy with the money at the end of the our disappears, and you forget ever using it.

Does the money have value, during that hour?

It has value during that one hour - if I buy a sandwich I can enjoy it while it lasts.

 

[Theftz22]

How about this: you have US$100, and know that the US currency will no longer be accepted by anyone in one hour. However, anything you buy with the money at the end of the our disappears, and you forget ever using it.

Does the money have value, during that hour?

The two choices in the OP are meant to resemble each other. I know some people would do whatever they wanted in the room -- but I doubt they would shoot themselves IRL.

Yes it does, using the sandwich example, a sandwich bought it in that hour will still be tasty while you can eat it even though the money will be worthless.

Four conditions anyone must satisfy to fulfill the example:

1. Do not find value in their own life.
2. Do not find value in other's lives.
3. Do not find it wrong to kill or **** others.
4. Are able to bring themselves to commit suicide.

 

[A1lion835]

The main focus isn't specifically breaking major laws -- it's just to provide the extreme of what you could do. Most arguments I've seen against my proposal basically boil down to "This life should be lived to the fullest because it's all we have," which I don't entirely believe. It assumes that life is inherently valuable, which just isn't something I can see as necessarily true.

 

[GwJ]

That's dandy then. Like most threads here, religion is a factor. If you believe in an afterlife with consequences, then you'll have a different opinion than someone who doesn't believe in that.

 

[ballin4life]

The main focus isn't specifically breaking major laws -- it's just to provide the extreme of what you could do. Most arguments I've seen against my proposal basically boil down to "This life should be lived to the fullest because it's all we have," which I don't entirely believe. It assumes that life is inherently valuable, which just isn't something I can see as necessarily true.

It doesn't assume that life is inherently valuable.

Think about what valuable means. Valuable to whom? I decide what I value, and thus I can decide that I value my life without assuming that life is inherently valuable in some objective sense.

 

[_Keno_]

It assumes that life is inherently valuable, which just isn't something I can see as necessarily true.

Nothing is inherently valuable. Value is completely subjective, if you think that human life or your time in this world is worthless, then to you, it is.