Meta Those who fight further: The Cloud Meta-Game Discussion/Community Guide

[CanadianCourage]

I find that cloud loses the marth/lucina match up because of thier range and how Good they can punish cloud out of shield,and lastly by hiting fair omce off stage cloud dies. I find they win the match up if they know how to shield limit break attacks.

 

[Deleted member]

I find that cloud loses the marth/lucina match up because of thier range and how Good they can punish cloud out of shield,and lastly by hiting fair omce off stage cloud dies. I find they win the match up if they know how to shield limit break attacks.

IMO it's too early to start making MU projections when Cloud has been available for literally 2 days and when there hasn't really been any high-level or otherwise noteworthy play that could be used to form an MU projection /proportion.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I find that cloud loses the marth/lucina match up because of thier range and how Good they can punish cloud out of shield,and lastly by hiting fair omce off stage cloud dies. I find they win the match up if they know how to shield limit break attacks.

I completely disagree.

 

[Gecko Moria]

I feel like forcing approaches with limit break camping and beam blade isn't very effective against a lot of characters if they just don't care about you charging your limit break. Especially characters who can stop your charged and uncharged beam blades with their own projectiles like PAC-MAN and Olimar. Other characters without these options can just powershield your beam blades or jump over them. I guess camping with limit break is probably more effective when your opponent actually has to fear being KO'd early by finishing touch or something.

 

[~Skelly~]

IMO it's too early to start making MU projections when Cloud has been available for literally 2 days and when there hasn't really been any high-level or otherwise noteworthy play that could be used to form an MU projection /proportion.

If there is anything that can be said about the matchups right now that I can think of, it's that LB Blade Beam beats Marth's/Lucina's counter.

 

[PapaJ]

Nair still autocancels though. Actually because it's a lower jump you can get a good autocancel without fast falling it, which is pretty cool.

It's also great for soutspot Dair AC combos. You can land it from a longer distance plus since it auto cancels you can get some extra security by using LB Cross Slash to stuff any attacks. If you land the Dair you can combo into the LB cross slash for 34 damage and a good chance to KO.

 

[Solaris_Noid]

Since I haven't found a video of this floating around yet, I'll just post this up here.

https://twitter.com/himo9/status/677078555847561216


Short hop FF Uair into Footstool into Finishing Touch. I saw the FFUair thing in another thread and this is something to keep an eye on. I'll definitely be labbing this up next time I get a free day off work.

 

[Mediocre Dunce]

Hey guys! I think Link beats Cloud because I lost to a horrible Link the other day with a really laggy connection! It seems really bad for Mr. Cloud!

is reverse nair a good gimp tool?

I don't know if there a point to doing that. It has the same knockback angle I think. It's not like reverse Ganon uair in Melee/PM or PM CHarizard reverse nair.

Also damn his uair is quick. I'm really surprised you can do shorthop fastfall uair and it STILL autocancels unless you do it too quickly. Wtf.

 

[Skitrel]

I don't even... Did you go through the entire signup process just to sarcastically rip on someone?

Salty...

On topic: Have footstool combos for any character actually been valuable in any of the competitive meta? I'm not sure it's one to watch. Entertaining for the novelty value or potential when styling but have we seen any be really valuable? Customs off.

 

[Gecko Moria]

On topic: Have footstool combos for any character actually been valuable in any of the competitive meta? I'm not sure it's one to watch. Entertaining for the novelty value or potential when styling but have we seen any be really valuable? Customs off.

In a tournament iv'e only seen Lucas and PAC-MAN pull off footstool combos. Although with Lucas the player (I think it was Pink Fresh) failed to get anything off of it. I think that once people start mastering these techniques we'll see alot more of it considering how many characters can capitalize off of footstools.

 

[Delzethin]

Does anyone have notes on when Cloud's moves start killing? I haven't found anything so far, and knowing what I can use to get a kill when would be a huge help when it comes to learning the character.

 

[DarkDeity15]

Does anyone have notes on when Cloud's moves start killing? I haven't found anything so far, and knowing what I can use to get a kill when would be a huge help when it comes to learning the character.

Or you can just find out yourself and make your own list if you've bought him already.

Hey guys! I think Link beats Cloud because I lost to a horrible Link the other day with a really laggy connection! It seems really bad for Mr. Cloud!

We had scrubby Link players come out of nowhere to say similar things about Cloud "outclassing" Link in the Link boards lol.

 

[Fenriraga]

I understand it is still FAR too early for match up thoughts, but I actually feel like Cloud is a decent counter to Rosaluma. If only because Cloud's attacks absolutely decimate poor Luma, especially Cross-slash when Rosalina blocks it (She can punish it with Luma since Cross Slash will always hit Luma enough to put him in freefall, though obviously Cross slashing a blocking foe isn't always a smart move.). It honestly feels like he can get rid of Luma fairly easily whether it be knocking him off stage or beating his HP down because of how Clouds moves operate. A single Limit-Charged attack seems to be enough to either launch or either Lumas health. Cloud can also kill Rosalina VERY easily on stages with platforms and low enough ceilings with his up air, even if it only connects with the lingering hit box. Even without platforms, I managed to kill a Rosalina at 90% off the top of FD with her DIing and everything.

Obviously just speculation, I am not saying ANYTHING definitively, just spit balling thoughts. But any thoughts on that? Could obviously just be placebo for me.

 

[EnhaloTricks]

Quick thoughts based on a tourney I did on Wednesday with cloud: olimar is a tough mu. None of clouds aerials are fast enough to both pressure olimar AND knock off the pikmin. If the run away it's tough (which they will). I actually lost the first game, then switched to Ness and bodied him so it's not a player difference.

Just something to think about.

 

[Emblem Lord]

You switched to a char you are familiar with from one thats 3 days old?

And you won?

Imagine that.

 

[EnhaloTricks]

Lol of course it's expected, but it's not a super familiar mu anyways with ness. Not a lot of oli players here.

Either way, it was much tougher with cloud than ness. Not saying it's bad, just saying it might be something to look at in the future. I just found that MU harder than almost all the others I did that day almost exclusively cloud.

I know it's early in clouds meta, but any speculation should be wanted and then tested by those with the means.

 

[KirbydaBear]

I understand it is still FAR too early for match up thoughts, but I actually feel like Cloud is a decent counter to Rosaluma. If only because Cloud's attacks absolutely decimate poor Luma, especially Cross-slash when Rosalina blocks it (She can punish it with Luma since Cross Slash will always hit Luma enough to put him in freefall, though obviously Cross slashing a blocking foe isn't always a smart move.). It honestly feels like he can get rid of Luma fairly easily whether it be knocking him off stage or beating his HP down because of how Clouds moves operate. A single Limit-Charged attack seems to be enough to either launch or either Lumas health. Cloud can also kill Rosalina VERY easily on stages with platforms and low enough ceilings with his up air, even if it only connects with the lingering hit box. Even without platforms, I managed to kill a Rosalina at 90% off the top of FD with her DIing and everything.

Obviously just speculation, I am not saying ANYTHING definitively, just spit balling thoughts. But any thoughts on that? Could obviously just be placebo for me.

I agree with Cloud simply bodying Luma. Dash attack, bair, fair, and uair all send Luma into hitstun, and it's worth even dash attacking shield just to send Luma off the edge. Cloud's damage output is also high enough to just KO Luma the old-fashioned way if necessary. Without Luma, Cloud just out-spaces Rosalina for days...

 

[inconspikuous]

IMO it's too early to start making MU projections when Cloud has been available for literally 2 days and when there hasn't really been any high-level or otherwise noteworthy play that could be used to form an MU projection /proportion.

i agree with the first part, but actually markus's cloud put in work and won a GF, looking legit. i posted the vids in the cloud q&a thread. i asked the mods to make a video thread so more tourney/tutorial vids can get the spotlight.

 

[StarBlue]

Okay, so. Whether this was already written or not, I do not know, I'm only throwing my own discoveries here.

A few things to get out of the way with Cloud:
- His Down Throw just barely kills at 170 (with rage), you have to be at the edge of the stage with you facing the blast zone with your back.

-You can, in fact, use Cross Slash's first two hits for combos (mainly for a grab)

-Down Tilt can catch people under the ledge

-Down Smash can stagespike via the hilt of the Buster Sword's hit (video proof: https://youtu.be/_oEZluwW8CE)

-Limit Breaker Beam Blade is great for gimping

-The ILCC (Instant Limit Charge Cancel) can stop Cloud mid-dash

The last thing to mention would be that some of Cloud's moves do decent shield damage, and yet they're completely unsafe. (Forward Air, Limit Breaker Cross Slash, Forward Smash, Down Air)

Whether any of these is worth mentioning is up to the people who made the thread, I hope I helped throw in some things about .

 

[Deleted member]

-You can, in fact, use Cross Slash's first two hits for combos (mainly for a grab)

Out of curiosity, how did you test this?

I was testing this earlier and found that it is very possible for characters to jump out well before Cloud can grab after Cross Slash Swing 2.

 

[StarBlue]

Out of curiosity, how did you test this?

I was testing this earlier and found that it is very possible for characters to jump out well before Cloud can grab after Cross Slash Swing 2.

I really only had them grounded (as in, failed tech) and tried it out. I will admit it isn't a confirmed combo, my bad for not mentioning this.

 

[DarkDeity15]

I really only had them grounded (as in, failed tech) and tried it out. I will admit it isn't a confirmed combo, my bad for not mentioning this.

So then what's the point of mentioning it if it's not even close to a true combo (please know what a combo is before you throw it around like that)? Try not to spread misinformation like that. Otherwise, there is one other thing you got wrong which is that a few of Cloud's aerials are pretty safe on shield if you space them right.

Ignore the pic.

 

[StarBlue]

So then what's the point of mentioning it if it's not even close to a true combo (please know what a combo is before you throw it around like that)? Try not to spread misinformation like that.

Well, I already apologized so there's no need to treat me like some unholy idiot. If it's bothering you so much I can always just remove that small error.
Also, I said SOME of Cloud's moves not every single one of them. Read before you call me out on something like that, I'm aware Neutral Air is safe on shield for example and a few more.

 

[DarkDeity15]

Well, I already apologized so there's no need to treat me like some unholy idiot. If it's bothering you so much I can always just remove that small error.
Also, I said SOME of Cloud's moves not every single one of them. Read before you call me out on something like that, I'm aware Neutral Air is safe on shield for example and a few more.

Forward air and Down air are pretty safe on shield if you space them the right way (Fair has loads of shield stun and hitting dair just before auto canceling it from a full hop and crossing up the opponent helps prevent you from being punished). You weren't very specific. Other than that though, yeah, my apologies. I thought you were some random FG scrub acting like he knew what he was talking about when he didn't even know what a combo was. I freaking hate those fools.

 

[StarBlue]

Forward air and Down air are pretty safe on shield if you space them the right way (Fair has loads of shield stun and hitting dair just before auto canceling it from a full hop and crossing up the opponent helps prevent you from being punished). You weren't very specific. Other than that though, yeah, my apologies.

Ah. My apologies for another misconception, then. The only reason I called Fair unsuitable on shield was because of the endlag, and Dair because of the situation. You are correct, though.

 

[DarkDeity15]

Ah. My apologies for another misconception, then. The only reason I called Fair unsuitable on shield was because of the endlag, and Dair because of the situation. You are correct, though.

It's cool dude. Just be a little more specific next time. On the other hand, I can't wait to buy Cloud and try out Link with his new buffs (Link's Fair got a damage and KBG buff so that it kills almost as early as Tink's and is a lot more safe on shield now, so happeh). I'm hoping to co-main Cloud with Link, if not then he'll at least be a go-to secondary. Can't wait until later today. A little off topic from the main discussion, but oh well.

 

[Thor]

Not sure if this was already tested elsewhere or these numbers are already known, but I spent some time testing fullhop AC dair -> Finishing Touch on Sheik (given that Sheik is definitely a relevant MU for nearly any Cloud player). I tried to fastfall the dair, although the timing for doing so in limit break while still getting the autocancel is very late.

In training with her set to level 3 and stop on the 3ds on FD, this combo registers as a true combo (2 hits) from 50% to 120% (pre-dair percents) and kills [I think it works a little earlier but I am working in multiples of 5]. I was barely able to get it to connect at 120% (once of several tries), so rage will lower the top percentage (with dair then launching too far). It seems Cloud must always full hop finishing touch. At 85 I could fullhop alone and get it to connect, but at 90 I had to double jump, although at 75 doing it with a double jump was still easy.

So 50-75, fullhop after dair, from 75-85 do fullhop or fullhop double jump, and from 85-120 do fullhop double jump to connect this (although there still needs to be testing with DI and also some work put into figuring out how DIable this is).

My next goal is to figure out who is immune due to height restrictions (can the AC dair hit Pikachu? Ducking Sheik? Ducking Pikachu? Ducking Kirby?).

Also, does anyone know how much weaker the back half of Finishing Touch is? While these might not be exact (I did this last night and am going from memory), the front half of finishing blow killed Sheik at 53%, but not 52% on FD, while the back half killed at 64% but not 63%. I'd assume this 10% gap is variable on a few factors (might be larger for DDD and smaller for Jigglypuff, and smaller on a Dreamland platform but larger on Battlefield'a base), but determining what that difference is seems like something that should occur sooner than later, unless people are just b-reversing Finishing Touch as required (I have not checked if the move can be b-reversed at all, since some moves can't be, but if you can, that would seem to make this a moot point except in teams).

 

[HFlash]

Yep, it means he has less jump height and more vertical knockback.

By vertical KB do you mean Cloud hitting people, or him receiving more KB himself?

Also I'm sorry if this has already been posted, but this shows a neat trick M2K discovered that might help with Cloud recovering back. Not gonna resolve the recovery issue for Cloud, but gives him a recovery mix up option!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhmo_GIrWv4

 

[Rog48439]

Not sure if anyone's already posted this here but I'm moving a post from another thread I made to this one:
Short-Hop Airdodge can auto-cancel automatically without Limit Break active:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFsVgiC0GGk
Another example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-waqEOwdYYQ
You can also FH airdodge onto the SF platform if you use ILCC (credit goes to Izaw for that one):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpSe6Ia9_po

 

[DairunCates]

So I figured out if you're a stock up and the opponent has at least 10% (in most cases) you can do a full Climhazzard from the edge and it is a reliable YOLO double sd/kill as they try and recover.

I'm really not sure on this one. When I was trying to do this training mode, the computer was frequently popping out of it at the bottom of the screen. It'll still kill most of the time, but I wouldn't call it reliable.

 

[Spark31]

Interesting...

He loses this when he's got a fully charged LB. Seems like this is deliberate.

I think Cloud's short hop height in general becomes lower when he has limit break. I was testing shorthop up air on the battlefield top platform. You can easily hit you're opponent on the top platform without limit using SH up air, but it becomes nearly pixel perfect once you have it.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

I know it's still far too early, but, is Cloud actually considered being better than Ike?

 

[kAffo]

Out of curiosity, has anyone compiled a source outlining damage output and kill percents for each move, and each hit of said moves?
As I was just wondering about the hits and kill percents present in his regular Up-B. As I found while messing around with it today that sometimes the second grounded hit (the rising hitbox) killed at a percentage and when I attempted to try again it only launched them, therefore the only conclusion I could come to were numerous hits on perhaps the sword or Cloud's current position.
Much Appreciated.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Am I the only one who finds it awkward trying to start combos with landing Uair? Maybe I'm just fishing for it too much.

I almost never land a Cross Slash or Finishing Touch, either.

 

[Thor]

After testing, FH AC dair can hit all characters, in limit break seemingly without a fastfall [this includes crouching GnW, Kirby, and Jigglypuff, although it may be worth having someone else double-check that no fastfall is required]. While inserting a very late fastfall seems to make things go more smoothly, this means in theory, Cloud should have a FH AC dair -> finishing touch combo on every member of the cast. As I mentioned above, it works on Sheik from roughly 50-120% without considering DI or rage.

Given that FH AC dair also combos into uair and Cross Slash at various percents, I think trying to make FH AC dair work as a tool in neutral [or at the very least a good and frequently used punish tool] would serve Cloud users well.

Random fun-fact - you can dropzone nair and double jump to regrab ledge without using up+B when not in limit break. When limit break is active, if you do dropzone nair, double jump, and wall jump [ex: on Duck Hunt], you can grab ledge without using up+b. Probably worth testing what stages the walljump method works on [while it's likely not going to work on Town and City/Smashville/Lylat Cruise, it's worth checking if this works on FD, Battlefield, and Dreamland.]

 

[RonNewcomb]

So it seems the final hit of Cloud's LB Cross Slash is a projectile. I nailed a reflecting Pit with it, who tanked all hits like a boss, but the final hit killed Cloud.

 

[Sykkamorre]

Just thought i'd drop in and mention that walkoff reverse limit cross slash is one of the best and easiest kills we can get once we've knocked an opponent off the ledge.

Just DESTROYS most low recoveries.

 

[~Skelly~]

Just thought i'd drop in and mention that walkoff reverse limit cross slash is one of the best and easiest kills we can get once we've knocked an opponent off the ledge.

Just DESTROYS most low recoveries.

The move can also be used to block characters with good recoveries at high percentages if you know where their recovery is going to take them and you time it right.

Edit: Ignore this post. It's still morning and I'm stating the obvious.

 

[meleebrawler]

It seems Climhazzard has that property where it'll continue even if it clanks with something. Happened with Ganondorf's ftilt.

And also Blade Beam seems to have a windbox on the swing.

 

[kAffo]

Cloud Damage Output and Kill Percents!
I thought I'd gather and collect some data from some brief testing of mine on the damage and kill percentages for Cloud's Moveset and post it here to share.
All these test were done with the standard method of doing so, in training mode with a mid weight character, Mario in this case.
The conditions in which these test were made include:​

• 
  
  
  • All tests were completed on the Omega form of Final Destination, to provide the most basic of stage sizes, with the test subject, Mario ,standing in dead middle of the stage for each.​
  • NO DI demonstrated by the test subject, as he was in 'Control' mode.​
  • NO RAGE, as it is not present in Training Mode.​
  • NO STALING EFFECT OF MOVES, as that is also not present mechanic in Training Mode.​

I would've simply posted the table with all the results in it directly into this thread, but it appeared that my HTML coding for the table wasn't properly converting in 'Preview', so this is the best I could do for now. I will attempt to try and repost this directly into the thread in the future.
The link to the data is here, so check it out if you're curious.

Notes:​

• 
  
  
  • I do intend to fill out and complete the needed data for both the 'Up Special' and 'LB Up special', I just need the time and a method to efficiently test every hitbox. As well as providing Kill Percentages for each move with Optimal DI, and what exactly that DI is. WIP as of now.​
  • The 'Kill Percentages' listed are the percentages the test subject were at just before the move hit and launched them, if you wish to find the exact percentage right before the subject hit the blastzone, simply add the listed damage output of that move to the Kill Percentage shown.​
  • * =Regarding the weak hitbox of Cloud's Up smash, it simply would not hit Mario when grounded and such I had to accommodate by testing with Mario being as low to the ground while still being in range of the hit. So, percentages may vary.​
  • ** = Cloud's LB Side Special is a case where the displayed percentages do match up with damage total, this is more than likely due to the hits not being a full number and having a few decimal places. Until this data comes to light and we know what these percentages are, it will continue to appear not to match up, no decimals will be displayed as of now.​
  • *** = More Characters kill percents for LB Down Special (Finishing Blow) here. Credit to PapaJ .​
  • LB= Limit Break​

This is my first time attempting something like this for the community, so let me know what you think. Please let me know if missed anything, or made a mistake. Hope it helps out all aspiring Cloud mains.​