Meta Those who fight further: The Cloud Meta-Game Discussion/Community Guide

[DrizzyDrew]

Uh, Ryu tho.

One thing I think should be looked into is full hop autocancel dair as an approach option. If you dair shortly after jumping you practically autocancel while the hitbox is still active. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if it does autocancel while the hitbox is active. Autocancel dair is probably Cloud's best combo starter, it combos into almost everything, including Fishing Touch, and since it still does a decent amount of damage at 8% it should be pretty safe, especially if you land behind the opponent. And I don't think anyone is going to beat out dair at all. Also full hop dair early hit is a really good as a surprise kill move.

Interesting findings. Gotta try using dair more as an experiment

 

[neil2020]

So I figured out if you're a stock up and the opponent has at least 10% (in most cases) you can do a full Climhazzard from the edge and it is a reliable YOLO double sd/kill as they try and recover.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

What are the autocancel dair frames and when to use it?

I'm also looking for Cloud's best kill moves without Limit. He doesn't seem to have an powerful kill moves without, though I suppose it's fair all things considered. But I manage to finally get a kill with FSmash and USmash past 100% and DSmash is a decent ledge tool.

 

[Eureka]

So what neutral tools are you guys seeing? So far I'm seeing:

• Bair: Amazing spacing option, this or nair will probably be the go to spacer in neutral. This thing has got crazy range and is actually straight up plus on shield if spaced correctly. It also comes out reasonably fast.
• Nair: A faster aerial spacer that covers more area, hits in front of cloud, is faster, and combos better, but does less damage (and thus less shieldstun), doesn't kill, and has less range. Using either this or back air is dependent on the situation I believe.
• Full hop Dair: Autocancels, absurd priority, combos into just about everything including Finishing Touch. A bit unorthodox, but potentially devastating. The practicality of it still is unknown, but the potential is certainly there.
• Ftilt: Holy cow pivot Ftilt slides far. Useful for spacing on the ground with it's range and speed, and when pivoted in covers a lot of distance.
• Jab: Fastest ground move, useful up close, pretty obvious what to use for. Sends people at a low angle for a possible chase if they miss their tech.
• Fsmash: Pretty YOLO, but it has huge range, long duration, and big power so if you're feeling yourself with a read it can be useful.
• Blade Beam: It's a slow projectile, but it's also very active and does a decent amount of damage. It's Cloud's only method of fighting outside of his sword range.
• Limit Break: This actually be one of Cloud's most important neutral tools. Even though Blade Beam is easy to power shield and outcamp, they still have to put pressure on Cloud or else he gets a free charge. Also because Cloud can cancel his charge without having to shield or roll, it means it's very little commitment. Intelligently finding times to sneak in charges could make the difference between a good Cloud and a great Cloud.

Those seem to be the most useful neutral tools, other thoughts?

What are the autocancel dair frames and when to use it?

I'm also looking for Cloud's best kill moves without Limit. He doesn't seem to have an powerful kill moves without, though I suppose it's fair all things considered. But I manage to finally get a kill with FSmash and USmash past 100% and DSmash is a decent ledge tool.

Fsmash has absolutely monstrous power, up smash also kills at 120%-130% even though it doesn't do all that much damage (seriously have you seen that swing why does it do only 13%?). Ftilt aslo kills closer to the ledge and Uair can easily kill an opponent high up and back air and forward air are also strong, back air in particular. Full hop dair also kills off the top at 130% or more. Cloud has no shortage of kill options.

 

[Darkmoone1]

Anyone know at what percent LB reaches full charge just by getting hit without manually charging or attacking?

 

[Hanku Hirru]

He may not get much mileage off his grabs, but he covers quite a bit of distance with pivot grabs and it's a good mix up option between that and his godly pivot tilts.

I may be wrong on this, but I believe that Cloud has to hit 100% for a full charge without charging his LB or landing any attacks.

 

[Sneaky boy Nick]

I genuinely can't get fast fall up air to true combo into limit break down B on any character. Does it not work?

 

[Eureka]

I genuinely can't get fast fall up air to true combo into limit break down B on any character. Does it not work?

It works, but generally only at lower percentages and you might need to hit with the hitbox above Cloud for it to connect.

 

[Tri Knight]

His grabs aren't that great. He seems to benefit greatly when in Limit Break mode. He gains a lot of aerial speed it seems. Not sure if any other attribute is affected but it seems to be just as potent to hold on to Limit Break for a bit to keep Cloud's speed up.

Cross Slash is very different. It's a spacing move and yet it's also an active combo. I've been teaching myself when to go for jab and when to go for Cross Slash. Jab is much faster but doesn't reach as far. OoS jabs are great. Pivot Cross Slash really helps Cloud a lot. Great for mixing it up as it does awesome damage, reaches far and can quickly surprise a rushing opponent.

 

[Sneaky boy Nick]

It works, but generally only at lower percentages and you might need to hit with the hitbox above Cloud for it to connect.

I'm trying at 40-60. It seems to work but doesn't show it as a true combo.

 

[Eureka]

I'm trying at 40-60. It seems to work but doesn't show it as a true combo.

Try hitting with the vertical (the sword itself Clouds spinning with) instead of the hitboxes in the whirlwind. I can confirm it works it showed up as a combo in the combo counter.

 

[ElectricBlade]

Landing trap finishing touch sounds amazing, with the auto cancel Uair/Nair

FF Nair to Jab is true at low percents

Side B being a 19% spot dodge punish is insane lol, love it

any grab follow ups yet? Dothrow side b is obviously Diable

 

[Sneaky boy Nick]

Clouds short hop air dodge has no lag.

 

[Tri Knight]

U-tilt combos into itself for some pretty good damage at the end from 0%. Fast fallers like Sheik and Fox will likely suffer greatly from this.

 

[Puppyfaic]

even though it doesnt read as a true combo, i seem to be able to consistently land down throw -> cross slash at around 20%, or lower with rage. is this a thing or are people just bad?

 

[cjferg691]

Don't know if this has been said or not, but Cloud's usmash covers the entire BF low platforms if you position yourself correctly, similar to Yoshi.

I've also tried a back fh fast fall fair at a very close angle, Cloud will launch the opponent over his head. Hard to hit, but I believe it could lead to follow-ups, tech chases, and maybe even aerial combos. Will try this at different percents and see what happens.

Edit: Seems to be able to combo into dash attack, Blade Beam, and Finishing Touch around low-mid percents. Only have tested this on a few guys, mostly heavies and fast fallers. I have a feeling floaty characters may not be affected.

 

[neil2020]

I got a ken-esque combo with Cloud on a Dk twice today at about 50%: Nair->dair. I'm going to lab a little and post any results I find.

 

[MoosyDoosy]

Honestly, while FH Dair is all good and all, it can be easily spaced out by someone that’s fast and good with foxtrots. From experience with friends that play Sheik/ZSS.

It’s still a good move that can lead to combos and is a good way to fish for kills if you have the right set up, but it’s a lot more situational than our go-to move which is Nair imo.

Nair can combo into Dtilt -> Uair/Nair as others have already noted and it makes for a really good spacing move in general. If you play smart you can mix things in like Blade Beam (neutral B) just to get on their nerves. Bair is also a really good spacing move.

On that note, how are you guys using Cloud? I’ve been playing a safer style with Limit Charge and Blade Beam to force my opponent to approach. Once they get closer, I space with Nair/Bair to hopefully lead into some easy combos. My goal is to pop them into the air as a lot of character struggle there (Dtilt is godlike) and try to keep them there with Utilt/Uair/Nair. During this time, I can sometimes get in a FH Dair or falling Uair combo but again, they’re more situational. Kill set-ups depend on how the game plays out with Limit Break and Fair shenanigans. Otherwise, smashes are still decent options and Cloud’s aerials are still powerful. So what do you guys do?

 

[Eureka]

Landing trap finishing touch sounds amazing, with the auto cancel Uair/Nair

FF Nair to Jab is true at low percents

Side B being a 19% spot dodge punish is insane lol, love it

any grab follow ups yet? Dothrow side b is obviously Diable

Down throw to side b is not a combo at all. It's not even a mixup or frame trap, everyone but fast fallers can jump out easy and fast fallers can just shield it.

even though it doesnt read as a true combo, i seem to be able to consistently land down throw -> cross slash at around 20%, or lower with rage. is this a thing or are people just bad?

People are just bad, it's a super not real string. Especially if people DI it right, then it's even worse.

Hate to say it guys but it looks like Cloud get's nothing in terms of throw follow ups. I'd say the best bet is to just up throw since that does the most damage and with up air Cloud can juggle really well.

EDIT

Honestly, while FH Dair is all good and all, it can be easily spaced out by someone that’s fast and good with foxtrots. From experience with friends that play Sheik/ZSS.

It’s still a good move that can lead to combos and is a good way to fish for kills if you have the right set up, but it’s a lot more situational than our go-to move which is Nair imo.

Nair can combo into Dtilt -> Uair/Nair as others have already noted and it makes for a really good spacing move in general. If you play smart you can mix things in like Blade Beam (neutral B) just to get on their nerves. Bair is also a really good spacing move.

On that note, how are you guys using Cloud? I’ve been playing a safer style with Limit Charge and Blade Beam to force my opponent to approach. Once they get closer, I space with Nair/Bair to hopefully lead into some easy combos. My goal is to pop them into the air as a lot of character struggle there (Dtilt is godlike) and try to keep them there with Utilt/Uair/Nair. During this time, I can sometimes get in a FH Dair or falling Uair combo but again, they’re more situational. Kill set-ups depend on how the game plays out with Limit Break and Fair shenanigans. Otherwise, smashes are still decent options and Cloud’s aerials are still powerful. So what do you guys do?

Full hop dair is definitely not a level-one move in neutral, those would be moves like bair, nair, and blade beam. But I do think it's an option that should be mixed in with those moves, especially considering the potential reward. Cloud benefits immensely from a more patient play style in my opinion. Mostly because Limit Charge absolutely forces your opponent to put pressure on Cloud or else he becomes a lot more dangerous. Abusing Clouds range and juggle ability as well as charging smartly seem to be the keys to victory.

 

[MoosyDoosy]

Down throw to side b is not a combo at all. It's not even a mixup or frame trap, everyone but fast fallers can jump out easy and fast fallers can just shield it.

People are just bad, it's a super not real string. Especially if people DI it right, then it's even worse.

Hate to say it guys but it looks like Cloud get's nothing in terms of throw follow ups. I'd say the best bet is to just up throw since that does the most damage and with up air Cloud can juggle really well.

Or off stage at high percents for stage control, Blade Beam gimps and Dair/Fair shenanigans. Even better if you have Limit Break to recover.

 

[ElectricBlade]

Down throw to side b is not a combo at all. It's not even a mixup or frame trap, everyone but fast fallers can jump out easy and fast fallers can just shield it.

People are just bad, it's a super not real string. Especially if people DI it right, then it's even worse.

Hate to say it guys but it looks like Cloud get's nothing in terms of throw follow ups. I'd say the best bet is to just up throw since that does the most damage and with up air Cloud can juggle really well.

Yeah i realized that after labbing more <.< it seemed that way when multiple people used it on me as roy

 

[SPAZ494]

I don't know if anyone has tried this, but would doing a reverse neutral b help Cloud's horizontal recovery a little bit? I would try it myself, but I am away from the game right now.

 

[Tri Knight]

Heres something to consider. Since Braver ledge snaps from above the ledge, I've been practicing recovering high. It sounds messed up but It's actually working really well for me.

 

[Hobospider]

I've found falling Up Air into Full Hop/Double Jump Limit Up B is a kill combo at around 85% on ZSS and 90% on R.O.B. on Omega Midgar. Haven't tested with DI or rage but it will probably change a lot. I'll test the percents on each character. It's a little tricky to land as well.

 

[AngIs]

I don't know if I'm just dumb, but is it just me or can Cloud (sort of) perform Melee dash dancing? Every character can do this to some extent by foxtrotting back/forth in a rhythm, but it's usually too slow to be effective (ZSS seems to almost be able to do it well). I know about foxtrot cancelling or w/e it's called, but if this is true it could be just a lazier option. Maybe it has something to do with his animation/dash speed, or maybe again, I'm just missing something.

 

[XinAzure]

I don't know if I'm just dumb, but is it just me or can Cloud (sort of) perform Melee dash dancing? Every character can do this to some extent by foxtrotting back/forth in a rhythm, but it's usually too slow to be effective (ZSS seems to almost be able to do it well). I know about foxtrot cancelling or w/e it's called, but if this is true it could be just a lazier option. Maybe it has something to do with his animation/dash speed, or maybe again, I'm just missing something.

Yeah, he can kinda do the old melee dash dance.

 

[Eureka]

I don't know if I'm just dumb, but is it just me or can Cloud (sort of) perform Melee dash dancing? Every character can do this to some extent by foxtrotting back/forth in a rhythm, but it's usually too slow to be effective (ZSS seems to almost be able to do it well). I know about foxtrot cancelling or w/e it's called, but if this is true it could be just a lazier option. Maybe it has something to do with his animation/dash speed, or maybe again, I'm just missing something.

Every character can dash dance Melee style, heck everyone still could in Brawl, it's just that the period for it has been shorted significantly so that it doesn't have many uses.

 

[Hobospider]

Here's a list for the Falling Up Air -> Double Jump -> Limit Break Up B combo kill percents.

This list is in training mode and has no DI or rage factored in. Kills are counted with a stock + red lightning. Done on Final Destination 3DS(WiiU FD kills a bit earlier). Also the timing of the combo can change the kill percent.

Spoiler: List of Kill Percents

Bowser -> 106%
Bowser Jr. -> 103%
Captain Falcon -> 105%
Charizard -> 99%
Cloud -> 103%
Dedede -> 120%
Dark Pit/Pit -> 95%
Diddy Kong -> 97%
Donkey Kong -> 114%
Dr. Mario -> 96%
Duck Hunt -> 96%
Falco -> 88%
Fox -> 85%
Gannondorf -> 106%
Greninja -> 89%
Ike -> 104%
Jigglypuff -> 73%
Kirby -> 82%
Little Mac -> 94%
Link -> 101%
Lucario -> 101%
Lucas -> 91%
Luigi -> 92%
Marth/Lucina -> 95%
Megaman -> 103%
Meta Knight -> 88%
Mewtwo -> 82%
Mr. Game & Watch -> 78%
Ness -> 91%
Olimar -> 84%
Pac-Man -> 93%
Palutena -> 88%
Peach -> 85%
Pikachu -> 86%
R.O.B. -> 103%
Robin -> 94%
Rosalina -> 81%(Luma can screw this up)
Roy -> 98%
Ryu -> 87%
Samus -> 97%
Shiek -> 86%
Shulk -> 98%
Sonic -> 93%
Toon Link -> 89%
Villager -> 92%
Wario -> 103%
Wii Fit Trainer -> 90%
Yoshi -> 96%
Zelda -> 87%
Zero Suit Samus -> 88%

 

[Spark31]

Wanted to add that limit break charges to full without charging after dealing 250 damage. This might be useful info.

 

[PapaJ]

Here's a list for the Falling Up Air -> Double Jump -> Limit Break Up B combo kill percents.

This list is in training mode and has no DI or rage factored in. Kills are counted with a stock + red lightning. Done on Final Destination 3DS(WiiU FD kills a bit earlier). Also the timing of the combo can change the kill percent.

Spoiler: List of Kill Percents

Bowser -> 106%
Bowser Jr. -> 103%
Captain Falcon -> 105%
Charizard -> 99%
Cloud -> 103%
Dedede -> 120%
Dark Pit/Pit -> 95%
Diddy Kong -> 97%
Donkey Kong -> 114%
Dr. Mario -> 96%
Duck Hunt -> 96%
Falco -> 88%
Fox -> 85%
Gannondorf -> 106%
Greninja -> 89%
Ike -> 104%
Jigglypuff -> 73%
Kirby -> 82%
Little Mac -> 94%
Link -> 101%
Lucario -> 101%
Lucas -> 91%
Luigi -> 92%
Marth/Lucina -> 95%
Megaman -> 103%
Meta Knight -> 88%
Mewtwo -> 82%
Mr. Game & Watch -> 78%
Ness -> 91%
Olimar -> 84%
Pac-Man -> 93%
Palutena -> 88%
Peach -> 85%
Pikachu -> 86%
R.O.B. -> 103%
Robin -> 94%
Rosalina -> 81%(Luma can screw this up)
Roy -> 98%
Ryu -> 87%
Samus -> 97%
Shiek -> 86%
Shulk -> 98%
Sonic -> 93%
Toon Link -> 89%
Villager -> 92%
Wario -> 103%
Wii Fit Trainer -> 90%
Yoshi -> 96%
Zelda -> 87%
Zero Suit Samus -> 88%

I was just thinking of maybe using LIMIT Up B might yield some combos. At the very least if they airdoge you can basically up B to them if they are at KO percent.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Isn't Falling Uair an unsafe starter for combos, or is it entirely reliant on the spacing?

 

[Spark31]

Isn't Falling Uair an unsafe starter for combos, or is it entirely reliant on the spacing?

It is

 

[Spark31]

Just out of curiosity, can limit break possibly be used to force an approach? It cancels into shield so easily you can shield projectiles, and your opponent will likely approach to stop you from charging. It might be a decent strategy.

 

[ligersandtigons]

is reverse nair a good gimp tool?

 

[Deleted member]

Anyone know at what percent LB reaches full charge just by getting hit without manually charging or attacking?

Cloud will attain full Limit Charge from empty once he takes 100% damage.

Similarly, Cloud will attain full Limit Charge after dealing 250% damage without taking damage or charging.

The charge increases linearly so if Cloud has half-filled the Limit Gauge, taking 50% damage will fill it and dealing approximately 125% damage will fill it.

 

[Tri Knight]

Just out of curiosity, can limit break possibly be used to force an approach? It cancels into shield so easily you can shield projectiles, and your opponent will likely approach to stop you from charging. It might be a decent strategy.

Both the charge and Blade Beam are perfect tools for Cloud's neutral. They both put him at the defending side, forcing the opponent to approach, which can put Cloud at a advantage.

 

[Deleted member]

Dash -> Landing Nair combos into itself at lower percents, (character dependent).

Dash -> Landing Nair also combos into F-tilt at lower percent (character dependent), Landing Nair can also combo into either CS (Cross Slash) or LB CS at certain percents.

Nair -> D-tilt is a thing as well.

Also (and most importantly IMO):

Falling Uair -> FH -> DJ -> LB Climhazzard is a possible true combo (DI dependent) and kills off the top fairly early.

In testing it earlier today with Mario on Battlefield I found it works from ~75% - 99%.

It will kill Mario from the base of Battlefield at around 95%~ (Black lightning spark appears at 95%), will kill Mario off the top platform at >= 75%~ and will kill off the middle platform at 86% (Black Lightning spark appears at 86% and above from mid platform, although can kill at 84-85%).

Will true combo before and close to kill percent, timing is fairly strict though and the hitbox of Climhazzard be a bit wonky.

Also, near kill percent typically the FH -> DJ -> Immediate Climhazzard is required for the attacks to combo and just generally reach the opponent, although before kill percent you can get away with a simple FH before Climhazzard.

This works on various characters at various percents, of course, it works on Bowser for example at 110%~, and on Fox at 86% (killing from base).

U-air can be DIed away fairly hard though so this option's utility will require further testing with DI and of course rage coming into play.

I will report back once I have gathered the relevant data for the entire cast.

EDIT: It works at even later percents when Falling Uair is substituted for FH Autocancel Dair. This may be more reliable and I will test this as well.

On a minor note Dash -> Landing Uair can allow for true combos into itself as already noted as well as into Nair or even Bair if you manage to cross up on landing.

 

[Skitrel]

Clouds short hop air dodge has no lag.

Interesting...

He loses this when he's got a fully charged LB. Seems like this is deliberate.

 

[PapaJ]

Interesting...

He loses this when he's got a fully charged LB. Seems like this is deliberate.

Prolly because in the FF7 when you get a limit your ATB fills up and normal attacks become limit. They probably wanted to give you an offensive advantage and not a defensive one.

 

[Eureka]

Prolly because in the FF7 when you get a limit your ATB fills up and normal attacks become limit. They probably wanted to give you an offensive advantage and not a defensive one.

Nair still autocancels though. Actually because it's a lower jump you can get a good autocancel without fast falling it, which is pretty cool.