Meta Those who fight further: The Cloud Meta-Game Discussion/Community Guide

[Delzethin]

Cloud Damage Output and Kill Percents!
I thought I'd gather and collect some data from some brief testing of mine on the damage and kill percentages for Cloud's Moveset and post it here to share.
All these test were done with the standard method of doing so, in training mode with a mid weight character, Mario in this case.
The conditions in which these test were made include:​

• 
  
  
  • All tests were completed on the Omega form of Final Destination, to provide the most basic of stage sizes, with the test subject Mario standing dead middle of the stage for each.​
  • NO DI demonstrated by the test subject, as he was in 'Control' mode.​
  • NO RAGE, as it is not present in Training mode​
  • NO STALING EFFECT OF MOVES, as that is also not present mechanic in training mode​

I would've simply posted the table with all the results in it directly into this thread, but it appeared that my HTML coding for the table wasn't properly converting in 'Preview', so this is the best I could do for now. I will attempt to try and repost this directly into the thread in the future.
The link to the data is here, so check it out if you're curious.

Notes:​

• 
  
  
  • I do intend to fill out and complete the needed data for both the 'Up Special' and 'LB Up special', I just need the time and a method to efficiently test every hitbox.​
  • The 'Kill Percentages' listed are the percentages the test subject were at just before the move hit and launched them, if you wish to find the exact percentage right before the subject hit the blastzone, simply add the listed damage output of that move to the Kill percent shown.​
  • * =Regarding the weak hitbox of Cloud's Up smash, it simply would not hit Mario when grounded and such I had to accommodate by testing with Mario being as low to the ground while still being in range of the hit. So, percentages may vary.​
  • ** = Cloud's LB Side Special is a case where the displayed percentages do match up with damage total, this is more than likely due to the hits not being a full number and having a few decimal places. Until this data comes to light and we know what these percentages are, it will continue to appear not to match up, no decimals will be displayed as of now.​
  • *** = More Characters kill percents for LB Down Special (Finishing Blow) here. Credit to PapaJ​
  • LB= Limit Break​

This is my first time attempting something like this for the community, so let me know what you think. Please let me know if missed anything, or made a mistake. Hope it helps out all aspiring Cloud mains.​

Wow, that kicks the crap out of the data I gathered earlier. I got slightly different data, although I had the Mario CPU set to Stop instead of Control--I figured that the little DI added by that option would be more accurate than an opponent who did absolutely nothing to cancel their momentum.

Thing is...despite that, I actually had Limit Cross Slash killing earlier than what you have listed! While you have it killing at 125%, I was killing Mario, from center stage exactly where he respawns, at 94%! I don't know why we had such a notable difference in our results.

I also managed to get data for Limit Climhazzard when the entire attacks connects on the ground. Under those circumstances, it started killing at 117%.

I also noticed something interesting: Cloud's fsmash and dsmash kill earlier if the first parts of the move connect! You'd think only the last hit mattered in terms of knockback, but apparently they kill noticeably earlier if you land every part of it.

 

[PapaJ]

Hey does anyone know if Cloud has any sort of jab. Im messing with Footstools and at low percents he can get some wicked **** going but it would be amazing if he had a jab lock of any kind.

Edit: Also with Nair we can do a cross up. if we jump at the right height we can either attack them in front or behind. It's a bit tricky but probably worth learning

Edit2: The only jab lock we have is Ftilt at around twenty five percent. Honestly I think it's not that useful but thats just my opinion.

 

[kAffo]

Wow, that kicks the crap out of the data I gathered earlier. I got slightly different data, although I had the Mario CPU set to Stop instead of Control--I figured that the little DI added by that option would be more accurate than an opponent who did absolutely nothing to cancel their momentum.

Thing is...despite that, I actually had Limit Cross Slash killing earlier than what you have listed! While you have it killing at 125%, I was killing Mario, from center stage exactly where he respawns, at 94%! I don't know why we had such a notable difference in our results.

I also managed to get data for Limit Climhazzard when the entire attacks connects on the ground. Under those circumstances, it started killing at 117%.

I also noticed something interesting: Cloud's fsmash and dsmash kill earlier if the first parts of the move connect! You'd think only the last hit mattered in terms of knockback, but apparently they kill noticeably earlier if you land every part of it.

The difference in data between our LB Side Special is simply my fault, I just put the Kill Percentage of LB Neutral Special twice, my b. I got closer to 85% with No DI for that move so yeah.
It would also make sense with the first part as it adds in some percentage, intrinsically resulting in an earlier KO. But either way I also have intentions to find the Kill percents for ONLY the launching hits of moves, such as F smash and Side B.
The info on Climhazzard is appreciated, I'll keep this in mind for when I test it, either way there are also many other hitboxes in the move to see.
Thanks for the reply.

 

[Delzethin]

The difference in data between our LB Side Special is simply my fault, I just put the Kill Percentage of LB Neutral Special twice, my b. I got closer to 85% with No DI for that move so yeah.
It would also make sense with the first part as it adds in some percentage, intrinsically resulting in an earlier. But either way I also have intentions to find the Kill percents for ONLY the launching hits of moves, such as F smash and Side B.
The info on Climhazzard is appreciated, I'll keep this in mind for when I test it, either way there are also many other hitboxes in the move to see.
Thanks for the reply.

Aha, that explains it! I hadn't thought of factoring in the damage done by the first parts of the multihit moves!

For what it's worth, it looks like there's little to no discrepancy between your numbers and the ones I got when it came to moves that kill vertically. I actually got the exact same one for the uair!

 

[kAffo]

Hey does anyone know if Cloud has any sort of jab. Im messing with Footstools and at low percents he can get some wicked **** going but it would be amazing if he had a jab lock of any kind.

Edit: Also with Nair we can do a cross up. if we jump at the right height we can either attack them in front or behind. It's a bit tricky but probably worth learning

Edit2: Alright it seems we have no jab locks...i did every move that I could.

Supposedly F Tilt locks, but only at low percents, like 0-20%, unlikely to be useful except for maybe platform tumble locks.

 

[neil2020]

Hey does anyone know if Cloud has any sort of jab. Im messing with Footstools and at low percents he can get some wicked **** going but it would be amazing if he had a jab lock of any kind.

Edit: Also with Nair we can do a cross up. if we jump at the right height we can either attack them in front or behind. It's a bit tricky but probably worth learning

Edit2: Alright it seems we have no jab locks...i did every move that I could.

Cloud's ftilt jab locks and cloud's only reliable "untechable" starters I found in my testing are footstool from falling uair and a bair off a platform at low percent to trigger the fall. Cloud's ftilt will lock up to about 25/30 percent depending on weight and fall speed of the character.

 

[neil2020]

I don't even... Did you go through the entire signup process just to sarcastically rip on someone?

Salty...

On topic: Have footstool combos for any character actually been valuable in any of the competitive meta? I'm not sure it's one to watch. Entertaining for the novelty value or potential when styling but have we seen any be really valuable? Customs off.

Ryo (Ike player) has been fairly successful with footstool combos, especially in team play.

 

[PapaJ]

Cloud's ftilt jab locks and cloud's only reliable "untechable" starters I found in my testing are footstool from falling uair and a bair off a platform at low percent to trigger the fall. Cloud's ftilt will lock up to about 25/30 percent depending on weight and fall speed of the character.

Ah ok, i was testing higher percents. Well, if it's only around twenty five percent that diminishes it's usefulness. On the plus side I've been messing around with Nair and because Cloud can act of dash very fast he can do some nice setups, not combos though. Gonna mess with his Nairs and see what I can do from that. Thanks

 

[Thor]

One thing I messed with but couldn't get with any consistency [it was against Pikachu, who is very hard to hit with this type of setup]: Run off the stage, b-reverse Climhazzard [without snapping ledge], and press the button again. If you clip someone with this, if things work the way I'd hope they do, you hit them up with you, then spike them down and grab edge, and they'll fall past you.

I don't know how reliable this is, but the interesting thing is that if you miss, it should still set up a ledge trump situation [they should have time to neutral getup, but they do have to pick an option or they'll get trumped]. This may be more precise/situational than a dair spike, but you don't risk the situation being reversed nearly as much as you do attempting to dair spike [indeed, you can avoid jumping with Climhazzard so that if they somehow intercept it, you still have double jump after this setup if it fails].

I don't think it'll be hugely practical, but in MUs with massive reversal potential on edgeguards [that is, messing up one gets you edgeguarded instead], this could very well be a low-risk/low-probability/high-reward tool [that is, it's not gonna hit often, but whiffing should be pretty safe, and on hit it should kill].

This, combined with the dropzone nair trick mentioned earlier [can't combine them, see below], suggests Cloud can have very solid coverage near the ledge [you could dropzone nair and double jump to ledge (which is a good position to set up bair and a fine one for dair) or you could instead double jump and then go for b-reverse Climhazzard, for instance - and that's just one set of options] [you can do either, but not both at once].

------------------------------------------

Incidentally, although I assume so and have done it where it looks to be true, has anyone confirmed if ledge-trump bair is guaranteed on a fast enough trump?

 

[-XTIAN-]

not sure if anyone has mention it yet, but unlimited cloud can actually sh airdodge and use a limit break before landing - could be useful to bait out an attack and punish with finishing touch or something

 

[StarBlue]

Just wanted to check on something; is it possible to do a frame cancelled F-Air into any Special/Limit Breaker Special? I'm currently not capable to test this out personally to confirm.

In case no one understood what I meant with frame cancelled F-Air, it's basically doing a FH and then Fastfalling in time to get the sweetspot in (kinda like with Captain Falcon if the explanation wasn't specific enough.)

 

[luke_atyeo]

who wants to do some labbing!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKYyJxpTMFI&feature=youtu.be

 

[Rog48439]

who wants to do some labbing!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKYyJxpTMFI&feature=youtu.be

I managed to replicate this while not hitting a target, as all you have to do is press A to start his jab and then press A again to do jab2, but instead of quickly pressing A again if you simply hold it after inputting jab2 cloud will automatically do jab1 again, and you can repeat this by pressing and holding A for a moment until he does jab1 again. To perform the same technique on a character would require them to incur a very specific amount of KB, not so much so that jab1 knocks them too far away to get hit by the next jab1, but not so little as to link into jab2 (which would then link into jab3 unless you were to wait for the entire jab to end before starting it again)

Edit: To perform this on an actual opponent would probably be impossible if they had any sense of SDI. Still a potential movement option, as you can approach with a rapid hitbox from across the stage, albeit slowly

 

[neil2020]

Just wanted to check on something; is it possible to do a frame cancelled F-Air into any Special/Limit Breaker Special? I'm currently not capable to test this out personally to confirm.

In case no one understood what I meant with frame cancelled F-Air, it's basically doing a FH and then Fastfalling in time to get the sweetspot in (kinda like with Captain Falcon if the explanation wasn't specific enough.)

Here are some combos and setups courtesy of Izaw:

https://youtu.be/uKRuW0a7Zfw

I personally think the frame-cancelled fair will be an integral part of Cloud's meta.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Dunno how useful this will be for you future Cloud mains in the metagame, but Zero has just uploaded a new video explaining what he thinks of Cloud's position in the tier list.

 

[Eureka]

I've been finding that the back hitbox of Cloud's up tilt is deceptively bad. It completely whiffs on fighters even as tall as Lucas unless they're overlapping and also misses on most characters air dodge landing animations. That means if someone's juggling with up tilt and their opponent air dodges into the ground behind Cloud they need to make sure they either turn around and up tilt or use another move to send them back up into the air.

 

[Thor]

Three things - first, the dropzone nair -> climhazzard spike setup I described earlier doesn't work - I had theorized it might, but dropzone nair not requiring Cloud's up+B appears to be due to his decent ledgesnap rather than his double jump going high enough, such that I SD'd every time I tried the mixup described. While they both work on their own, you can't "fuse" them to cover a ton of space.

As for the second thing, random fun fact: You can snap ledge backwards while using the downward portion of up+B if you used the limit break variant. This means you could up+b facing away from the stage in limit break [using the charge], then press B again to descend and attempt to spike the opponent. It's largely a waste of a limit charge, but if you want to "style"...

[This is also actually useful if you accidentally held down on the way up and don't snap - instead of falling like a sitting duck, you can press B and you'll snap regardless of which way you are facing, as long as you are high enough that Cloud will start grabbing the ledge.]

Third random thing - the snap distance for Cloud on the way down using Climhazzard [when you press B a second time] appears to be the length of his sword [so if the red outline overlaps the ledge, he'll grab it], at least from what I could tell trying it on both my 3DS and the Wii U. If someone has a way to quantify this distance better, by all means do so. For the vertical distance required to fall before you can snap, someone else said it seemed to be about his double jump [run off immediate double jump], which looks pretty accurate from what I can tell [this means you can only start up+B a little bit below the stage if you want to use the second half and still grab ledge].

 

[Eureka]

Good news guys, Finishing Touch is a guaranteed follow up on floatier characters if they miss their tech after a jab combo. Limit Break Cross Slash also is guaranteed against basically everyone who isn't a fast faller. While normally I'd be all excited and talking about how people better be on point with their techs, I'm pretty certain that the opponent can just DI the jab combo up and not even have to deal with the tech situation, or at least put them far enough away that either of those moves can't be landed. That's not even getting into how rage might affect it. But hey, if you jab someone like Luigi or Villager at around 60% and they don't DI and miss their tech they're dead.

EDIT: Nair and on the other hand look completely legit. I don't think you can DI it to avoid a tech situation and it works on all fall speeds. Also autocancel nair, probably our best neutral tool in Limit Break, reliably combos into LB Cross Slash. So uh, yeah don't miss your tech from one of the most used moves in neutral at 60% or you die lol.

As for the second thing, random fun fact: You can snap ledge backwards while using the downward portion of up+B if you used the limit break variant. This means you could up+b facing away from the stage in limit break [using the charge], then press B again to descend and attempt to spike the opponent. It's largely a waste of a limit charge, but if you want to "style"...

You can actually snap to the ledge backwards with normal Climbhazzard on the way down, the ledge snap radius is just smaller. So it's sometimes a potentially legitimate edgegaurd. If they're trying to recover that high to where you can snap to the ledge on the way down they probably deserve to get spiked like that anyway.

 

[Curleh_Mustache]

Cloud has a dash dance that reminds me of the melee dash dance just by dashing back and forth. Do any of you find this useful in tournament play? I found it pretty effective online though

 

[Eureka]

Ftilt might also be able to force tech situations against fast fallers that can be followed up with Finishing Touch if they miss their tech.

Honestly, these tech setups, assuming I'm not wrong and they're legit, might just be a game changer. The ability to force the opponent into a "save or die" situation off basic neutral moves like Ftilt and Nair is actually amazing. And even if they to make their tech that's a potential chase into a Finishing Touch as well, which might be able to cover multiple options.

 

[Altais]

I think some of you Cloud mains will be pleased to know that Cloud's up-air completely blocks Robin's Elwind (0:30). This player was pretty good, considering Cloud was just barely released. Mopped the floor with me. Would have loved a re-match, but he/she left the chatroom.

 

[neil2020]

Three things - first, the dropzone nair -> climhazzard spike setup I described earlier doesn't work - I had theorized it might, but dropzone nair not requiring Cloud's up+B appears to be due to his decent ledgesnap rather than his double jump going high enough, such that I SD'd every time I tried the mixup described. While they both work on their own, you can't "fuse" them to cover a ton of space.

As for the second thing, random fun fact: You can snap ledge backwards while using the downward portion of up+B if you used the limit break variant. This means you could up+b facing away from the stage in limit break [using the charge], then press B again to descend and attempt to spike the opponent. It's largely a waste of a limit charge, but if you want to "style"...

[This is also actually useful if you accidentally held down on the way up and don't snap - instead of falling like a sitting duck, you can press B and you'll snap regardless of which way you are facing, as long as you are high enough that Cloud will start grabbing the ledge.]

Third random thing - the snap distance for Cloud on the way down using Climhazzard [when you press B a second time] appears to be the length of his sword [so if the red outline overlaps the ledge, he'll grab it], at least from what I could tell trying it on both my 3DS and the Wii U. If someone has a way to quantify this distance better, by all means do so. For the vertical distance required to fall before you can snap, someone else said it seemed to be about his double jump [run off immediate double jump], which looks pretty accurate from what I can tell [this means you can only start up+B a little bit below the stage if you want to use the second half and still grab ledge].

Climhazzard will always snap the ledge on the downward sweep as long as clouds character model is physically above it and at most the sword-length (red zone) away. He will also snap it on the upward sweep if you are a sword-length away and just about level with the ledge, but the spacing is pretty precise.

 

[Delzethin]

Has anyone found out the exact stats for Cloud's mobility? I'm wondering what his walk, run, and fall speeds are.

 

[Nahvi]

I do not know if it was known, but after a footstool you can buffer a Dair and fast fall it as soon as possible in order to hit the oponent before it can even get up while auto cancelling it:

- For the video I used a Sheik ('cause fall speed and MU issues) level 9 CPU that do not DI to the ledge after footstool (just helping the test) and also getups the fastest possible.
- I tested it before with a second player mashing the airdodge/getup button during the whole combo, he could not scape at any moment.
- If fully controlled it could be a potential 0-to-death.
- Also tested that FF Uair into footstool into buffered AC FF Dair into Finishing Touch is a true combo, killing Sheik from 27%.

 

[Lemonade Candy]

Not a fan of the about cloud. Too many spoilers and I know you copied them from wikipedia. /rant

 

[Lemonade Candy]

I understand it is still FAR too early for match up thoughts, but I actually feel like Cloud is a decent counter to Rosaluma. If only because Cloud's attacks absolutely decimate poor Luma, especially Cross-slash when Rosalina blocks it (She can punish it with Luma since Cross Slash will always hit Luma enough to put him in freefall, though obviously Cross slashing a blocking foe isn't always a smart move.). It honestly feels like he can get rid of Luma fairly easily whether it be knocking him off stage or beating his HP down because of how Clouds moves operate. A single Limit-Charged attack seems to be enough to either launch or either Lumas health. Cloud can also kill Rosalina VERY easily on stages with platforms and low enough ceilings with his up air, even if it only connects with the lingering hit box. Even without platforms, I managed to kill a Rosalina at 90% off the top of FD with her DIing and everything.

Obviously just speculation, I am not saying ANYTHING definitively, just spit balling thoughts. But any thoughts on that? Could obviously just be placebo for me.

I agree with you. Played my friend day one and he found ways to pressure my shield safely while also getting rid of Luma with LB Cross-slash. He made it really hard to approach without her with spacing and stage control with blade beam. She has GP but i tried to use Luma to negate it.

 

[Locke 06]

Platform shield drop>cross Slash makes it an f10 OoS option. Not that anyone is any good at platform shield dropping, but that's something for future Cloud.

Cross Slash 1 jablocks on platforms and can lead to whatever.

Also, wavebouncing cross Slash in the air can help keep people from falling out. I'd be really interested in seeing people lab cross Slash to find when it is reliable and when it isn't. Fully understanding the move is p. Important for Cloud players and Cloud opponents.


Re Rosa: BAir doesn't launch Luma until Luma's taken ~15%. Neither does NAir.

 

[CptPuff]

How do you guys start out your matches? I've began every single one of mine with charging limit, but I noticed that Tweek only started with charging once in his set vs Nairo, usually rather opting for the beam. Is this for stage control purposes?
Edit: sorry will use Q&A thread next time

 

[Tito Maas]

How do you guys start out your matches? I've began every single one of mine with charging limit, but I noticed that Tweek only started with charging once in his set vs Nairo, usually rather opting for the beam. Is this for stage control purposes?
Edit: sorry will use Q&A thread next time

Probably. I imagine there are many times where you wouldn't want to give up the stage space when the LB is easy to secure anyway

 

[Emblem Lord]

I pretty much always charge limit from "GO!!"

No reason not to really.

 

[rocker9999]

If it's the start of the set, I'll play the keep away game while charging limit. Once I got a good idea of how they play, then I'll start playing the match.

 

[HFlash]

The one situation I find myself not focusing on charging limit is when I am under the opponent (particularly in BF) due to Cloud having to be if not the best, one of the best characters for juggling along with catching people's landings which usually results in either death or a continued juggle position. It's funny that FD is probably Cloud's worst stage, but at the same time the best stage to just play the charge limit game.


Edit: So I am going to start uploading my Cloud gameplay. This is day one Cloud (in which I haven't incorporated his amazing fox trots or LB cancelling), but I did notice something: dthrow to utilt works on ganon at 0%! Cloud may have some throw combos after all, but if and what you can do off of dthrow probably depends on the char. My best guess is that this might be guaranteed on bigger, heavier characters as the back portion on utilt is deceptively short. Let me know if you guys have any other data to add to this.

 

[Mr. ShinyUmbreon]

Hey, not sure if anyone has talked about this, but at low percents Climhazzard can be used as a combo finisher at low percents from up-tilts and falling up-airs. Also Limit break Climhazard OOS is a good kill option. Back-air can also true combo into f-tilt at low percents for about 24%

 

[Zalezus]

The one situation I find myself not focusing on charging limit is when I am under the opponent (particularly in BF) due to Cloud having to be if not the best, one of the best characters for juggling along with catching people's landings which usually results in either death or a continued juggle position. I

Ever try charging LB under the opponent to a baited ILBC Utilt? It only works once or twice for me before they catch on or before I just go for the juggle. People tend to get really aggressive and neglect spacing in that one moment they think they see the opening.

 

[Buckstrom]

So anyone wanna talk about using LB Cross Slash to stage spike? The air stall is amazing for trapping that edge, and it's really tricky to tech or sometimes not techable at all. Good at catching rising low recoveries and potentially 2 frame punishing warps, great for early kills if you get your opponent off stage. Has anyone else tried this?

 

[Emblem Lord]

So anyone wanna talk about using LB Cross Slash to stage spike? The air stall is amazing for trapping that edge, and it's really tricky to tech or sometimes not techable at all. Good at catching rising low recoveries and potentially 2 frame punishing warps, great for early kills if you get your opponent off stage. Has anyone else tried this?

Where u been bruh? I was talking about this day 2.

 

[Haze~]

Where u been bruh? I was talking about this day 2.

It's sooo good but i think reverse LB blade beam is more reliable for trapping and stagespiking cause it's more active when the move sticks on to the stage. Still needs more testing, which one is more reliable.

 

[Buckstrom]

Does anyone else use LB Climhazzard to kill off the top against 120%+ opponents? Especially on Town & City (our best stage IMO), so amazingly fast and not as punishable/more mobile than LB Cross Slash if you land on a platform correctly.

You don't even need a sweetspot if your opponent is in the air, just tap them with your Buster Expansion and bam they're dead :D

(x-posted from Social Thread)

 

[Zalezus]

Does anyone else use LB Climhazzard to kill off the top against 120%+ opponents?

(x-posted from Social Thread)

Sweet ass OOS kill

 

[NoTechZone]

I'm extremely new to competitive smash so don't kill me and I don't know if this had been said but limit cross slash is doing me favors when it comes to ledge guarding. If you know they're coming from under, you can start a limit cross slash on the ledge and they'll have to tech the stage spike when they up b into it which is your job to time correctly.

Best case scenario: Missed tech means a lost stock for them
Worst case scenario: they tech and you still get a lot of damage on them as well as a new mix up:

Tech jump: jumping back air or air dodge read back air.
Wall Tech: retreating forward air for the spike or falling forward air for the air dodge read spike.

This has been my favorite ledge option for a while. If there's something better, let me know.