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This is where we have to go and discuss any forum that talke about allowing infinites
- Thread starter CBK
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TheNix
Smash Journeyman
Infinites are stupid.
I just can't understand why there's still any debate over this.
I just can't understand why there's still any debate over this.
cutter
Smash Champion
Saying something needs to be banned because "it's stupid" is extremely subjective.
I think Marth's up B is stupid; let's ban that :/
I think Marth's up B is stupid; let's ban that :/
TheNix
Smash Journeyman
If only we could. Marth's up+b is silly.
I have actual reasons for my opinion but I honestly don't think I even need to explain them. All the arguments have been given already. It's basically one side saying "Hey lets have some fair, fun fights" and the other side saying "But I want my brain-dead cousin to have a 90% chance to win against an otherwise viable character!".
Consider this: I main DK. I just won a battle, and my opponent is counterpicking me. It is impossible for me to select DK, regardless of who my opponent plays or how good they are, because they can pick King Dedede and be guaranteed to win.
cutter
Smash Champion
Did you not remember the huge discussion in the Brawl Tactical boards about D3's infinites? The pro-ban side never came up with a good reason for why they should be banned.
@ TheNix: You can say the same for someone like Link in Melee. You win the first match as Link; if you stay as Link, I counterpick Sheik and get a free win.
@ TheNix: You can say the same for someone like Link in Melee. You win the first match as Link; if you stay as Link, I counterpick Sheik and get a free win.
TheNix
Smash Journeyman
Could someone who was really bad with Sheik beat a pro Link consistently? No, of course not. The matchup was pretty stupid (there's that word again), but it wasn't so bad that people absolutely could not use Link. Furthermore, even if not for that matchup, Link would not be a great character. DK, on the other hand, is a very good character in Brawl.
No.
That's it.
What? That's not enough? Fine. How about you provide us with actual arguments for why the infinite (or all infinites) should be banned.
That's it.
What? That's not enough? Fine. How about you provide us with actual arguments for why the infinite (or all infinites) should be banned.
You pro-life pro-infinite people do realise that by coming in here and acting so hostile, you don’t really seem to be striving for a resolution, right?
Why should infinite standing chaingrabs be allowed when there’s no tech-skill required, and it makes the matchup 100-0 for the characters in question? (In a game where matchups worse than 70-30 are extremely rare, it’s completely incongruous — or “stupid”.)
It’s also arguable that it fits certain criteria as a glitch that, “Causes the opponent to lose control of his/her character.” There’s no comparisons to be made with Melee. Unless Sheik could cause some of her opponents to get to 300 damage by grabbing and down-throwing them ad nauseam — the opponent being unable to escape by any means. (And we say “300” because past that point it’s inexplicably considered stalling. I’m not sure I understand why it suddenly becomes stalling at 300, and is A-OK before then. Seems to me that stalling for 10 seconds is equally bad as doing it for a full minute, or longer.)
Where are your actual arguments? … and spare the flawed analogies and superior airs.
Or — wait for it, this is going to blow your mind — maybe you share some of the onus of truth as well. Mind-blowing, I’m sure.Yunie said:
Why should infinite standing chaingrabs be allowed when there’s no tech-skill required, and it makes the matchup 100-0 for the characters in question? (In a game where matchups worse than 70-30 are extremely rare, it’s completely incongruous — or “stupid”.)
It’s also arguable that it fits certain criteria as a glitch that, “Causes the opponent to lose control of his/her character.” There’s no comparisons to be made with Melee. Unless Sheik could cause some of her opponents to get to 300 damage by grabbing and down-throwing them ad nauseam — the opponent being unable to escape by any means. (And we say “300” because past that point it’s inexplicably considered stalling. I’m not sure I understand why it suddenly becomes stalling at 300, and is A-OK before then. Seems to me that stalling for 10 seconds is equally bad as doing it for a full minute, or longer.)
Where are your actual arguments? … and spare the flawed analogies and superior airs.
TheNix
Smash Journeyman
This is irrelevant and arguable (other characters can eventually break out unless at a high %).
My opinion on this is as follows: The infinite makes for extremely boring gameplay, and completely ruins a character's tournament viability (you could argue that DK could still be used to counterpick other characters, but there is always a better choice than him). The infinite is laughably easy to perform, and impossible to avoid (due to DDD's incredible grab range).
If the infinite were to be banned, the matchup actually becomes very close. I personally think DDD would still hold an advantage but it wouldn't be by too much. It leads to very entertaining battles.
I should also state that, like CBK, I don't think that DK's infinites on Ness and Lucas should be allowed either.
I just can't understand why anyone would defend this infinite. If it's banned you fix this broken match. What is there to lose and why allow it? I think the best question to ask is why shouldn't it be banned.
daisho
Smash Lord
Why shouldn't it be banned?
The game was created a certain way, why change it? Should bowsers suicide be banned? It causes you to "lose control of your character" and auto take a stock off of you.
Why should it be banned?
Anything that allows a person a free win while clearly losing to the better player is utterly rediculous. There should be no 80-20 matchups or higher than that otherwise it makes the character unsuitable for tournament play.
In addition, the timing required for the DeDeDe infinite can be learned in five minutes. To have such a strong attack that can be taken out so quickly is not the style of brawl. Think about it this way, if DeDeDe's fully charged down B came out as fast as grabs and went through shields we would not only ban it, but even sakurai realizes that it is stupid and the game would not exist. Clearly all the games moves are not balanced and some characters have better ones than others, but none are proportionally that cheap.
Once the DK gets grabbed in the third stock he can pretty much just put down his controller and walk away. There is no way sakurai intended for it to be that a player loses once he gets grabbed.
Reguarding the sheik link matchup. If a sheik is really bad he can lose to anyone. If the DeDeDe is bad in this case, he can still easily win.
Lastly, this can be banned easily without having to rewire the whole game, it takes conscious effort to use this move so you can't claim it was an accident.
The game was created a certain way, why change it? Should bowsers suicide be banned? It causes you to "lose control of your character" and auto take a stock off of you.
Why should it be banned?
Anything that allows a person a free win while clearly losing to the better player is utterly rediculous. There should be no 80-20 matchups or higher than that otherwise it makes the character unsuitable for tournament play.
In addition, the timing required for the DeDeDe infinite can be learned in five minutes. To have such a strong attack that can be taken out so quickly is not the style of brawl. Think about it this way, if DeDeDe's fully charged down B came out as fast as grabs and went through shields we would not only ban it, but even sakurai realizes that it is stupid and the game would not exist. Clearly all the games moves are not balanced and some characters have better ones than others, but none are proportionally that cheap.
Once the DK gets grabbed in the third stock he can pretty much just put down his controller and walk away. There is no way sakurai intended for it to be that a player loses once he gets grabbed.
Reguarding the sheik link matchup. If a sheik is really bad he can lose to anyone. If the DeDeDe is bad in this case, he can still easily win.
Lastly, this can be banned easily without having to rewire the whole game, it takes conscious effort to use this move so you can't claim it was an accident.
cutter
Smash Champion
Against Mario, Samus, and Luigi, it is not a true infinite until 125+. So it is not a 0-death.
Bowser is not infinite; it is a small step CG by DDD that is finite.
There shall be more to come.
Irrelevant. And, yes, a ****ty Sheik could beat a great Link pretty easily. Not as easily as a ****ty D3 can beat a great DK, but still.
But it's irrelevant. Because we only care about what happens when people of equal skill level meet up. The D3 infinite destroys DK at any level. But why shouldn't it be banned then? Because it only destroy DK and Bowser and one of the harsh realities of Competitive play and Playing to Win is that you cannot always play as your favorite character.
In other words, learn to counterpick. Don't demand things be banned due to your own laziness.
1) No.
2) Snake's infinite works on more characters than that.
We do not ban things to fix broken match-ups. If we did, there'd be one jillion bans in place. You chose a horribly designed character as your main. Live with your horrible choice.
Why can we not use loaded language? It's 100% true after all. DK is a horrible choice for a main as long as the D3 infinite isn't universally banned. DK is an especially horrible choice for a character to use against D3 because one refuses to get a secondary.
It's like saying I shouldn't say Captain Falcon is a horrible character because that's obviously loaded language and some people will get mad at it.
Pot - kettle.
highandmightyjoe
Smash Ace
Please don't start these discussions again. I'm gonna build a lot of hate from my fellow DK's here, but, I am actually against the ban. But whatever, can we please not clutter the DK boards with a topic that already had a spam filled thread in the tactical boards.
Drizzt6195
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Nov 1, 2008
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- 117
Yes but the problem is that DDD infinite is so easy that everybody will CP DK with DDD.
And we all have a secondary for D3 so stop calling everybody lazy or whatever becayse you think that DDD infinite shouldn't be ban
ANd Ness or Lucas can get out of DK infinite with a bit of DI
And we all have a secondary for D3 so stop calling everybody lazy or whatever becayse you think that DDD infinite shouldn't be ban
ANd Ness or Lucas can get out of DK infinite with a bit of DI
Lern2irony.Yunie said:
You seem to be missing the point. The discussion is about whether or not the DDD standing infinite should be banned. You were asked why you think it should be allowed.Yunie said:
“Because I feel that DK is a horrible character,” is not a valid reason. By spouting irrelevant diatribe such as this, you’re impeding what could be a valuable dialogue.
Suppose, hypothetically, that it was suddenly discovered that every character in the game had a similar infinite on Captain Falcon (and only on Captain Falcon), making an already “horrible” character impossible to play as. Every single matchup is 100-0 against Falcon as long as this infinite exists.
Now, would it be allowed, just because Falcon is already “horrible”? Or would it be banned due to the principle of the matter?
The Smash community hasn’t exactly taken the game that Sakurai made as-is. We play without items, with severe restrictions on stage selection, and with counter-picking rules, etc.
Ideally, as many characters as possible will be competitively viable to play as. That’s why there was/is so much hysteria over Meta Knight’s apparent dominance of every character.
So you have a character like Donkey Kong, who has quite decent matchups across the board. By your own admission, what makes DK not viable at high level play is this infinite at the hands of DDD.
This isn’t a flaw in character design and balance — Falcon fails because the development team screwed up his entire movelist. That form of developer oversight can’t be rectified without extensive hacking.
On the other hand, a flaw in DDD’s dthrow lets him chaingrab DK on the spot to ridiculous levels of damage. This kind of oversight can be easily rectified by the Smash community, with a ban.
And as more and more areas adopt the ban, it is being rectified, in spite of your personal misgivings — which you have yet to actually justify.
So.
Post this on the Genesis forums please! we need to get this on there to make infinite banned at Genesis!
http://www.norcalsmash.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=66
This is where you should post your arguments not here! GO!
http://www.norcalsmash.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=66
This is where you should post your arguments not here! GO!
Blad01
Smash Lord
Where does that rule come from ?
I don't think so. The only things taht could be fixed are the match-ups that are broken because of something that could be considered as a glitch, that is to say, DDD Infinite.
Fox - Pika is also broken, but the chaingrab is not a glitch... There is a reason why the chaingrab works : Fox is a FF, it's one of his caracteristics : He get caught in chaingrabs.
Liquid Gen
Smash Ace
^ In that sense we can also say that DK is fat, therefor he gets caught after a down throw since he is so big.
TheNix
Smash Journeyman
It's pretty hard to understand why it (sort of) works on Luigi, though.
Whether or not it's a "glitch" or "intentional" or anything like that is completely irrelevant. "Blame yourself for picking your favorite character" is not a good argument, either. The fact of the matter is that this technique does not encourage competitive play. It encourages people to pick a character they have absolutely no experience using just to beat someone who has spent almost all their time on their favorite character (and they WILL win).
CBK is a popular DK player. If someone were to be faced against CBK, they would know he will be picking DK. In the first match, they can then go DDD and win. Sure, they might lose the second match when CBK is on the counterpick, but then they have another huge advantage in the third round (where CBK is forced to pick a character he isn't as familiar with, and then is counterpicked on top of that).
If it was just DDD players who could do this, I wouldn't even mind. My problem is that ANYONE could pick DDD and be almost guaranteed to win, because it's so easy to do.
cutter
Smash Champion
Ease of use is irrelevant. If something is able to be humanly done it will be mastered.
i.e., ICs chaingrabs. I don't main the ICs at all; yet I can do their Dthrow, Bthrow, and Fthrow alts. It is not that hard to do honestly.
Hylian was taking MMs at COT4 that he would be able to chaingrab people to death without looking at the TV. Vayseth was telling me that lain can do the chaingrabs consistently BLINDFOLDED. That just shows how ridiculously easy the chaingrabs can be.
i.e., ICs chaingrabs. I don't main the ICs at all; yet I can do their Dthrow, Bthrow, and Fthrow alts. It is not that hard to do honestly.
Hylian was taking MMs at COT4 that he would be able to chaingrab people to death without looking at the TV. Vayseth was telling me that lain can do the chaingrabs consistently BLINDFOLDED. That just shows how ridiculously easy the chaingrabs can be.
TheNix
Smash Journeyman
If you can do the IC's chainthrows consistently with little practice, you are in the minority, and should be proud of yourself. I myself have practiced it for awhile and can do them to an extent, but not consistently. Meanwhile I never play Dedede at all, but can perform his infinite for a joke.
The ICs comparison is pretty bad even if you ignore the difficulty of use. While it can be performed on all characters, it doesn't make any matchups broken, because the ICs have a poor grab range (especially in comparison to DDD) and it requires both climbers to be together. While it will probably happen once or twice in a match against a great ICs player, it's completely avoidable.
A better comparison would be something like Pikachu's chainthrow on Fox, or Sheik's ftilt lock on all of the spacies. (Though neither of those are quite as bad as DDD's infinite due to less range, they are still pretty brutal)
Mith_
Smash Champion
where the **** did all these non dk people come from talking about infinites and ****?
I personally think the D3 infinite should be banned. Like Nix said its stupid (there is really no other way to describe it). Unfortunately I'm not experienced enough to really debate about it but here's my opinion.
I also agree when he said that anybody can pick up D3 and infinite DK without even really trying. I don't main D3 or use him much anymore but I still got the infinite down on my first try when I found out about it.
If you used neither IC or D3, would you rather counterpick IC's against an infinitable character or just use your main again? As for DK it doesn't matter just pick D3.
I personally think the D3 infinite should be banned. Like Nix said its stupid (there is really no other way to describe it). Unfortunately I'm not experienced enough to really debate about it but here's my opinion.
I also agree when he said that anybody can pick up D3 and infinite DK without even really trying. I don't main D3 or use him much anymore but I still got the infinite down on my first try when I found out about it.
If you used neither IC or D3, would you rather counterpick IC's against an infinitable character or just use your main again? As for DK it doesn't matter just pick D3.
CELTiiC
Dong 2 Strong
That sounds more like hate to DK more than an argument. I know the infinite on DK really hurts him, but one character doesn't absolutely make him the worst main in the game, and I know, if King Dedede's infinite isn't banned, it would be advised to find a secondary, but we don't have too.
Edit: I'll join the argument I guess since I posted this. I personally say ban the infinite. I'm not just saying this from a Donkey Kong point of view, but I find it really unfair towards the other player, because it shows no talent, really. I'm saying this in the way that it's just like giving yourself a free win because King Dedede's infinite (as stated before) is very easy to pick up and use.
DDD's infinite only works on Bowser/DDD off the edge and DK standing. All other characters can mash out when they have to pummel before around 130%.
Also, this doesn't need to be discussed in this forum.
Also, this doesn't need to be discussed in this forum.
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