Meta "This is the Monado's Power" - Metagame Discussion

[Starfall11]

It's the opposite for me. This forum makes me follow every thread, even the ones I stop watching. So opposite problem I guess. This thread has never unfollowed me.

Anyways, Did anyone catch the Trela matches in the last tournament? (Or Grand Finals). So much hype!! Shulk is shaping up great to be one of the greatest characters in the game.

 

[Berserker.]

lmao I was more hyped at the Zard surprise

but yeah, his Shulk was insane

 

[JackPR]

Is anyone else having an issue with thread unfollows? For some reason it keeps unfollowing me from different boards.

I haven't had any trouble with it, that's prety weird though. Maybe you should ask in support or something.

 

[Berserker.]

After seeing those videos, I have to use f-air and b-air like waaaay more now. I'll also have got to know the full hitbox of dat bair

D-air is also something I might try using more and u-air as well. Hnnnggghhh jump

 

[Jade_Rock55]

Can I get links to those Trela Slhulk matchesp

 

[Berserker.]

http://smashboards.com/threads/unfinished-battle-shulk-video-archive.368799/page-5#post-17908837

I got very curious about jump's weight decrease. I know this is very inaccurate but I got bored. I used default MArts. Center of FD, KO'd myself with a motion-sensor bomb

76% vanilla
70% jump
66% smash

Not accurate. Disclaimer: I got bored but whatever

 

[Starfall11]

Can I get links to those Trela Slhulk matchesp

Here they are:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5z4-WSIZ4I (Shulk vs Little Mac)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCwtmXb52k4 (Shulk vs Greninja)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KWyPey7XsQ (Shulk/Robin vs Fox)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipXpPPwrFMg (Robin/Shulk/Charizard vs Sheik) Grand Finals

He makes excellent use of Shulk's air attacks as well as Jump and Speed form. Great spacing, and solid play with Buster. Interestingly, he uses Jump to KO most of the time instead of Smash. I have a lot to learn from his Shulk.

 

[Masonomace]

So Idk if anyone else noticed this, but when you FH > D-air without FF'ing it, you naturally have the landing lag of D-air right?

I've been messing around with this setup for Shulk's D-air & you can do something interesting that ignores D-air landing lag. Do a FH > D-air, & as you're landing, do any Special. I even tried this with Customs involved & they all worked. It's basically a mix-up you don't need MArt-L-canceling for this one. This tactic isn't successful with MArts or HMArts because their activation is way off since you can't cycle through MArts while using an aerial.

You can MArt Landing Cancel with DMArts too. You have it at what MArt you want, wait for a split moment, then proceed to do FH > D-air, then you'll DMArt Land Cancel perfectly. Try this out & see what you guys think about it.

Note: You can't cancel the lag animation of D-air with any other input except Specials & DMArts is the only MArt exception for the FH > D-air input.

 

[Monado Boy]

Is it just me, or does Shulk have a really short grab range? I've been playing around a lot and it feels like his non-pivoted grab is one of the shortest in the game, even shorter than Pikachu or Kirby's grabs.

 

[Starfall11]

Is it just me, or does Shulk have a really short grab range? I've been playing around a lot and it feels like his non-pivoted grab is one of the shortest in the game, even shorter than Pikachu or Kirby's grabs.

Shulk's grabs are pretty short, yeah. My friend mains Robin, and it seems like he has such an easier time shield-grabbing me. That's why it's best to either grab in speed, where they don't have time to react. Or use empty jumps with Buster/Jump to feint an aerial into a throw. That's what works best for me anyways.

 

[Berserker.]

So Idk if anyone else noticed this, but when you FH > D-air without FF'ing it, you naturally have the landing lag of D-air right?

I've been messing around with this setup for Shulk's D-air & you can do something interesting that ignores D-air landing lag. Do a FH > D-air, & as you're landing, do any Special. I even tried this with Customs involved & they all worked. It's basically a mix-up you don't need MArt-L-canceling for this one. This tactic isn't successful with MArts or HMArts because their activation is way off since you can't cycle through MArts while using an aerial..

There's a thread about it already in the competitive discussion if you're interested

http://smashboards.com/threads/cancel-aerial-landinglag-if-aerial-is-almost-finished-but-not-completely-with-b-moves.376445

Can you be more specific in which specials/customs you used to ignore/cancel the landing lag?

 

[Masonomace]

There's a thread about it already in the competitive discussion if you're interested

http://smashboards.com/threads/cancel-aerial-landinglag-if-aerial-is-almost-finished-but-not-completely-with-b-moves.376445

Can you be more specific in which specials/customs you used to ignore/cancel the landing lag?

Interesting.

Anywho, I used every Up-B, Side-B, & Down-B there is. Doesn't matter if you use Customs or not because they all work with Shulk's FH > D-air landing.

You can't use Default MArts or HMArts because they activate before you land, & a mobility MArt like Jump Speed or Shield would entirely change your Vanilla's input. You also can't FF at all during the FH > D-air input or else you'll land with lag no matter what. I suggested earlier in my previous post that you can use DMArts a split moment before doing FH > D-air, perfectly canceling landing lag with the activation of the DMArt if you time it well.

 

[Berserker.]

Good ****

With this, I'm hoping I can make back slash actually useful for something other than punishing

 

[Masonomace]

Hopefully. I was kind of excited for this when I was able to buffer Air Slash & Vision upon landing. I can see some delayed OoS punishes with an attack be royally stopped by a landing Vision counter or Air Slash by surprise. We could use this tactic for baiting, or just OoS > FH > D-air > any special for a mix-up.

 

[NT 3000]

So Idk if anyone else noticed this, but when you FH > D-air without FF'ing it, you naturally have the landing lag of D-air right?

I've been messing around with this setup for Shulk's D-air & you can do something interesting that ignores D-air landing lag. Do a FH > D-air, & as you're landing, do any Special. I even tried this with Customs involved & they all worked. It's basically a mix-up you don't need MArt-L-canceling for this one. This tactic isn't successful with MArts or HMArts because their activation is way off since you can't cycle through MArts while using an aerial.

You can MArt Landing Cancel with DMArts too. You have it at what MArt you want, wait for a split moment, then proceed to do FH > D-air, then you'll DMArt Land Cancel perfectly. Try this out & see what you guys think about it.

Note: You can't cancel the lag animation of D-air with any other input except Specials & DMArts is the only MArt exception for the FH > D-air input.

I know I talked about this before you can FH dair and then mash Nair and get nairs landing lag instead of dairs. :O this also applies to bair. For some reason both of those attacks still give you noticible lag even if you DJ. When in doubt just nair it out guys...(awful pun I know lmao)

 

[Berserker.]

I think I learned something from these videos

B-air's hitbox is ****ing ridiculous. Both front, somewhat below him and of course on his back

 

[Jade_Rock55]

Can I get videos of this fair lag cancel b moves thing?

 

[JackPR]

I know I talked about this before you can FH dair and then mash Nair and get nairs landing lag instead of dairs. :O this also applies to bair. For some reason both of those attacks still give you noticible lag even if you DJ. When in doubt just nair it out guys...(awful pun I know lmao)

OK so as soon as I replied to you about the thread not being unfollowed, it happenned to me too :/
Does the Nair mashing thing work even half way through the animation?

 

[Masonomace]

I know I talked about this before you can FH dair and then mash Nair and get nairs landing lag instead of dairs. :O this also applies to bair. For some reason both of those attacks still give you noticible lag even if you DJ. When in doubt just nair it out guys...(awful pun I know lmao)

I remember that. Did you by chance try FH > D-air > buffering N-air landing on Yoshi's Island stage? Starting from the outer parts of the stage, then going towards the center is uneven level of ground & you may just get N-air's landing instead, but I actually tried doing Vanilla FH > D-air, & couldn't get N-air for the life of me. Specials though~

Can I get videos of this fair lag cancel b moves thing?

Unfortunately I can't show you what I did. Here's a video from Luigi Player doing it with Ganon & DK:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6b4OrdLhAg&feature=youtu.be

^ You apply the same way of doing it with Ganon, except Shulk you FH > D-air, & mash a Special move without Fast Falling.

 

[NT 3000]

OK so as soon as I replied to you about the thread not being unfollowed, it happenned to me too :/
Does the Nair mashing thing work even half way through the animation?

No the animation needs to be finished but what's weird is that even if it finishes you still get full lag so that's why i mash nair

 

[NT 3000]

I remember that. Did you by chance try FH > D-air > buffering N-air landing on Yoshi's Island stage? Starting from the outer parts of the stage, then going towards the center is uneven level of ground & you may just get N-air's landing instead, but I actually tried doing Vanilla FH > D-air, & couldn't get N-air for the life of me. Specials though~

Unfortunately I can't show you what I did. Here's a video from Luigi Player doing it with Ganon & DK:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6b4OrdLhAg&feature=youtu.be

^ You apply the same way of doing it with Ganon, except Shulk you FH > D-air, & mash a Special move without Fast Falling.

I'll do some more testing later I've been so busy...haven't had a lot of time to play recently :/

 

[Masonomace]

Who here actually uses Vision to cancel their ledge-jump animation, for seeing someone charge a smash attack to hit you. Anyone?

I'll do some more testing later I've been so busy...haven't had a lot of time to play recently :/

I dig it.

 

[MarioFireRed]

Who here actually uses Vision to cancel their ledge-jump animation, for seeing someone charge a smash attack to hit you. Anyone?

Wait...You can do that?!

Dang I wanna know the timing for this and if I can also use this for the other Counter characters.

 

[Masonomace]

Wait...You can do that?!

Dang I wanna know the timing for this and if I can also use this for the other Counter characters.

You can. While you're ledge-jumping, you have to input Vision in a strict window of time, or else you'll normally do a ledge-jump animation. I will say that if you input Vision too early, you'll slowly fall downward, not landing on the stage. Practice it if you want to get on the stage with a mix-up.

 

[NT 3000]

Who here actually uses Vision to cancel their ledge-jump animation, for seeing someone charge a smash attack to hit you. Anyone?
I dig it.

Yesss so good

 

[OptimistNic]

I've put in a LOT of time with Shulk. 650+ online KOs to be exact. I found a really good Sheik in For Glory and--despite losing 70% of the matches--it was always neck-and-neck (that's me implying that the matchup isn't as bad as many would think). Fair is AMAZING at reading double jumps, and with Jump or Speed activated you can force your opponent to the blast zone with it (sometimes I would double or triple Fair to the end of the screen).

 

[Berserker.]

According to Thinkaman, Shulk's aerials (Except n-air) can be cancelled with any b-moves during their landing lag. It seems like it has something to do with IASA frames (Interruptible as soon as)

Mighty air slash connects 100% of the time against the following characters (Using Monado jump with Mighty air slash is not a good idea if you want to connect the 2nd hit)




(Min weight)






























These characters require certain amount of timing before pressing B for the 2nd hit














(Max weight)

(Default weight)

Note that for all characters at higher percentages, you're gonna have to time the second hit

 

[Plain Yogurt]

Was fooling around with customs today and felt like tracking Shulk's back slash damages since I note that there's some incomplete data in the OP. This attack has a bajillion different hitboxes and it's annoying. All of this is recorded with Vanilla Shulk. Maybe I'll do the different MArt variants at some point. Meh.

Standard Back Slash(I know a lot of this is already recorded but I figured I'd include it for completion's sake)

From the front:
Ending/Tip/hilt(? It looks like the hilt anyways...):9%
Everywhere else seems to be 10%

From the back:
Ending:13%
Tip/hilt:14%
Downswing/glass/Beam:16%

Leaping Back Slash

From the front:
Ending:8%
Tip:9%
Downswing(hilt):4%
Downswing(blade):6%
Everywhere else seems to be 10%

From the back:
Ending:16%
Tip:14%(I don't get it why it's suddenly lower than the ending hit...)
Downswing(hilt):11%
Downswing(blade):12%
Everywhere else did 16%

Back Slash Charge

From the front
Ending/slide:3%
Downswing(blade?):6%
Seems to be 4% everywhere else, though I might have gotten a 6% tipper once.

From the back
Slide:6%
Ending (fricken pinpoint on this one): 12%,
Tip: 9%
Beam/hilt:11%
Glass:13%
Downswing:15%
And it did 14% two different times and I haven't been able to figure out why. Maybe it's the hilt downswing?

Some notes:
-Glass is the circle where the MArt kanji appear, for those who don't know.
-Downswing is when the blade is vertical right as Shulk is swinging it.
-It's kinda hard to track the downswing on the custom variants, so downswing may only have the one hitbox and the downswing hilt damage may just the hilt damage in general. However, it was the only time Leaping Back Slash did 4/11 damage, so I feel like there is a separate hitbox there.
-Ending is hitting with the tip at pretty much the instant Shulk touches ground.
-I REALLY wish there was more consistency in hitbox damage output. "okay standard backslash does the same amount of damage on the beam, downswing and glass, so on THIS variant we'll make all of them do different damage!" And then on default the ending hit does less than the tip when you hit from the back, but then on both custom variants it does more.
-This move is super weird. I may have made mistakes. Don't hurt me if some of this is a little off pls.
-If this information is already floating around and the OP just hasn't updated it I'll be super sads cause I've been back-slashing Mario for 2 hours...

 

[StaffofSmashing]

I don't know if this helps or not, but Shield may not be the only art to start against heavyweights, If you're near them, you can pull stuff like this off. Keep in mind this combo may be training mode only so bear with me here.

This goes off the fact that buster increases damage but decreases knockback. Bet you didn't know THAT. Since heavyweights aren't exactly the most keen on knockback this allows you to string powerful combinations and not get A scratch... I think

 

[Berserker.]

I don't know if this helps or not, but Shield may not be the only art to start against heavyweights, If you're near them, you can pull stuff like this off. Keep in mind this combo may be training mode only so bear with me here.

Sorry about the outdated info. Gonna remove that soon

Also, that u-tilt chain ain't a combo. You can thank the hitsun nerf for this during buster art buuuuut, u-tilt is great as an anti-air or for juggling.

 

[TheHopefulHero]

You can. While you're ledge-jumping, you have to input Vision in a strict window of time, or else you'll normally do a ledge-jump animation. I will say that if you input Vision too early, you'll slowly fall downward, not landing on the stage. Practice it if you want to get on the stage with a mix-up.

Noted! Definitely will practice that as I can have a rough time landing safely after a ledge grab....

 

[JackPR]

What are goox secondaries for Shulk? Like, 1 or 2 characters that work with all of his bad matchups.

 

[Berserker.]

I think....

Marcina, Robin, Rosalina, Little Mac

 

[ChronoPenguin]

What are goox secondaries for Shulk? Like, 1 or 2 characters that work with all of his bad matchups.

im trying pit kirby rob so far.
kirby offers nothing.
Pit and rob are fairly better against projectile users.

 

[MarioFireRed]

What are goox secondaries for Shulk? Like, 1 or 2 characters that work with all of his bad matchups.

In my experiences Shulk struggles against fast characters and, more prominently, projectile users.

For fast characters I suggest either a rushdown who can keep pace with them, such as Falcon, or a faster sword user who can space better against them than Shulk, like Marth or Lucina.

As for projectile users I'm gonna agree with Chrono. I don't know much about ROB but Pit definitely has the kit in order to counter their projectiles while firing off his own. I'm gonna add Mario to this list because fireball (no customs) and fast fireball (customs) are nice approach tools while smart use of his cape can render their spamming useless. He's also no slouch in the close range department either thanks to easy-mode DThrow + UTilt

 

[Masonomace]

@ Plain Yogurt I can vouch for all of this when I say Back Slash & the Customs for the move are freakin complex, hands down without a doubt. I'll update the OP, but actually some of those numbers are in my speculated spoilers on the 2nd page. Sorry if you feel the sads now.

Spoiler: My post about the Custom Back Slashes in page2

Spoiler: Back Slash Leap (BSL) UPDATED x2

Back Slash Leap (BSL)
Usage
BSL's usage favors more anti-air that stuff the opponent's approach whether they FH or SH aerials, using BSL to cover all of the air in front of Shulk. More options & usage include precise ledge-guard punishes for their means of getting back on the stage whether it's ledge-hopping, ledge-jumping, rolling, get-up, or get-up attack, BSL can cover it all. BSL used often for anti-air conditions the opponent into running forward & shielding hoping to punish you, but you bait with a grab punish. Things like that including utilizing the high jump BSL produces can avoid low-to-the-ground linear projectiles, even though some projectiles like Mario Fireball get neutralized by the EBS coming down on them.
Damage
Frontward facing damage:
Blade Portions:Grounded (close-ranged): 10% http://youtu.be/qUy2BEtszlQ?t=42s
Airborne (close-ranged)?: ??% Unknown / Needs testing
Beam Portions:Grounded (tipped): 8% http://youtu.be/HjZFi0kF-VY?t=4m53sAirborne (tipped): 9% http://youtu.be/qUy2BEtszlQ?t=33s

Bonus points on why the %'s are correct: In the GIF above we see Fox hit by the Beam's very tip right as the Monado slams on the ground hitting Fox's feet, but not his hand during his idle animation. BSL's Beam at it's maximum reach of connecting is the grounded-slam hit. It slightly increased due to the downward & slightly forward angle of BSL coming down. And Fox not being a big character with a large hurt-box affects this outcome very little. Also take notice the KB with a slashing crescent visual effect flying out.

In the GIF above, Shulk deals 9% the first time, showing the same slashing visual effect appearing but only for a very quick moment; the slashing crescent visual effect flies at a 45 degree angle this time instead of the straight-out trajectory. The second BSL deals 8% & barely hits Mario's DJ with the ground slamming attack from the Beam's portion. Below shows Shulk's BSL coming down hitting Mario right before landing, dealing 9%

Backward facing damage:
Blade Portions:
Grounded (close-ranged): 16% http://youtu.be/qUy2BEtszlQ?t=38s
Airborne (close-ranged)?: ??% Unknown / Needs testing
Beam Portions:
Grounded: ??% Unknown / Needs testing
Airborne:14% http://youtu.be/HjZFi0kF-VY?t=6m6s

Spoiler: Back Slash Charge (BSC) UPDATED x2

Back Slash Charge (BSC)
Usage
An amazing horizontal gap-close dashing lunge having Super Armor frames to ignore projectiles, traps, & hazards, with an extra slide towards the end of the move for bonus distance. Despite the weaker dealing front-facing % damage & KB, BSC has augmented horizontal movement & the ability to trade % grounded or airborne. Keep in mind that BSC has terrible cooldown from the lunging distance / sliding at the end, so definitely use it wisely, & go for stage-long punishes if you can. To utilize BSC the most, you have to get in very close to do significant damage, although the slide helps ledge-guard the stage fairly well, so play safe if you want.

Note: RAR+aerials are a common tactic for edge-guarding on the stage; others use it on stage during Neutral Game too. BSC destroys the RAR+aerial option usable by every character, so watch for when players use RAR+Airs into back facing aerials, it's a free worthy punish!
Damage
Frontward facing damage:
Blade portions:
Airborne (close range hit-box against grounded): 4% http://youtu.be/HjZFi0kF-VY?t=6m34s
Airborne (close ranged airborne trade) 6% http://youtu.be/HjZFi0kF-VY?t=7m49s

Here's a GIF of Shulk's BSC trading with Ganon's SH+Fair, & the result of the trade-off was dealing only 6% while airborne with super armor. So the lesson to be learned here is to never trade with BSC against a front-facing opponent regardless of who it is.
Beam portion:
TECHNICALLY Airborne (tippered): 3% http://youtu.be/HjZFi0kF-VY?t=6m31s
Grounded (sliding Monado Beam forward hit-box): ??% Unknown / Needs testing

And here's my proof of why I stated Shulk's BSC's airborne hit-box is this image above. At first I thought it was BSC's grounded beam portion, however that's not the case here. Because Shulk's grounded hits always involve one certain animation to know it's a grounded move or not, his leg, just what I have circled in green.

Take precise notice that his leg is bent & down to the ground level after the former picture.. That leg animation is the key to knowing when & if Shulk has landed yet, which he has now, but being later than the first picture.
Backward facing damage:
Blade portions:
Airborne (close-ranged): 11% http://youtu.be/HjZFi0kF-VY?t=6m52s
Airborne (Glass-circle hit-box aka closest you can be): 13% http://youtu.be/HjZFi0kF-VY?t=7m34s
Airborne (close-ranged trading with the airborne foe facing away): 15% http://youtu.be/HjZFi0kF-VY?t=7m55s
Grounded(s): ??% Unknown / Needs testing

BSC seems tricky, but since this Custom Move is more Blade-savvy during close range & airborne heavily preferring to deal backward facing % damage. It's plausible to think the airborne attacks of BSC's % damage can change based on the range, though for this Custom Move Blade portioned hit-boxes increase makes this a recommended Melee-ranged move despite BSC's means of wonderful horizontal approaching.

Take notice of the particular moment Shulk places perfectly in the right spot to do a more powerful Backward facing BSC doing 13%, that shows the Monado's Glass circle literally swung & batters against Fox's cranium, displaying a white/blue shining star with the overhead red streaking line formed by Shulk's BSC sweet-spotting. Afterwards, Fox is launched surrounded by a large blast trail hit with additional knockback.
Sweet-spotted Back Slash Charge with the Glass circle down below:

Sweet-spotted Back Slash Charge with the Glass circle up above.

Here's an interesting clip above I noticed that others may have seen too. Behold! Airborne close-range trading! The greatness of of trading with Ganon normally isn't a smart move & not healthy for your % health. However a BSC trade airborne with Ganon's Bair scored Shulk a 15% trade-punish most likely for the better, since I don't see Ganon's Bair doing 15% or more. I'll need someone to clarify that for me if so.
Beam Portions:
Grounded (sliding Beam tippered): ??% Unknown / Needs testing
Grounded (landing tippered) ??% Unknown / Needs testing
Airborne (tippered): ??% Unknown / Needs testing

 

[Berserker.]

You should probably update the damage charts

 

[Masonomace]

You should probably update the damage charts

Indeed, but your post on the 14th page:

Some values aren't correct though in the damage chart I put. Pretty sure some of them are decimals (0 damage registered as 1%). Ugh. I think I'll do a rerun with everything tomorrow. idk

And I replied with:

Which values exactly? I'm on the urge of adding the values now since it's the weekend & I was wondering which values are in question. I did add some values in that you made a second notion of in a later post, such as HBuster's F-smash values, but after that I don't want to add the rest yet.

 

[Berserker.]

For now, you can put the values but they can be changed once I reconfirm some numbers

 

[Masonomace]

For now, you can put the values but they can be changed once I reconfirm some numbers

Eggcelent my good sir.

@ Plain Yogurt , berserk, & everyone, how do you guys feel on the Custom Specials getting their own little table?