Meta "This is the Monado's Power" - Metagame Discussion

[Berserker.]

Eggcelent my good sir.

@ Plain Yogurt , berserk, & everyone, how do you guys feel on the Custom Specials getting their own little table?

I'm fine. The only thing that I'm worried about is the amount of time I have to put into this. lol

 

[Masonomace]

Sometime this week when I play again, I will be sure to test some. Speaking of numbers. . .

The Front floor attack for Vanilla Shulk dealt 7%, the exact same as his Ledge attack. I will be sure to test the Floor attacks however way it's possible to do.

F-smash
Decisive buster 7/19 - 10/26
Hyper speed 2/7 - 4/10
Hyper shield 2/7 - 3/9
Hyper buster 8/21 - 11/29
Hyper smash 2/5 - 2/7

U-smash
Decisive buster 6/20 - 8/28
Hyper speed 2/7 - 3/10
Hyper shield 2/7 - 3/10
Hyper buster 6/21 - 9/30
Hyper smash 1/5 - 2/7

D-air
Decisive buster 9/13
Hyper speed 3/5
Hyper shield 3/5
Hyper buster 10/15
Hyper smash 2/3

What I have quoted are the only numbers in question for me besides D-smash because D-smash is a lot of numbers to add.
Are the F-smash, U-smash, & D-air numbers disregarding the tipper area of the Beam, including that weird phenomenon with D-air's non-meteor effect dealing less damage?
I was assuming these numbers were not factoring in the tipper & non-meteor D-air, but I wanted to check with ya & clarify if they did or didn't.

 

[Berserker.]

Sometime this week when I play again, I will be sure to test some. Speaking of numbers. . .

The Front floor attack for Vanilla Shulk dealt 7%, the exact same as his Ledge attack. I will be sure to test the Floor attacks however way it's possible to do.
What I have quoted are the only numbers in question for me besides D-smash because D-smash is a lot of numbers to add.
Are the F-smash, U-smash, & D-air numbers disregarding the tipper area of the Beam, including that weird phenomenon with D-air's non-meteor effect dealing less damage?
I was assuming these numbers were not factoring in the tipper & non-meteor D-air, but I wanted to check with ya & clarify if they did or didn't.

It didn't factor tipping

 

[Plain Yogurt]

@ Plain Yogurt but actually some of those numbers are in my speculated spoilers on the 2nd page.

Some != all. Work was done.

 

[Starfall11]

Hello all,

I competed in Salt City recently in Syracuse, NY. Place 8th out of 18 with Shulk. Not the best unfortunately, but I've been practicing PM Ike much more as of late.

Anyways, I did fairly well against the characters I did face. Lost against a really amazing Sonic who made it to GF in my first match. And lost against a solid Sheik which eliminated me. The Sheik player was a former melee/PM player who has used Sheik since Melee, so he was pretty good. Very close match with him though, and I barely lost it by being gimped in Shield mode.

If you guys have any questions, let me know. Shulk seems really viable. And I feel the Sheik MU is 60-40 in her favor. But I still think it's doable. Speaking of which. GF was between the Sonic player I mentioned and an even better Sheik player. Sheik won, but it was very close. People think she's the best character in Smash 4 at the moment. (Though there is some debate with Rosalina.)

 

[Berserker.]

Hello all,

I competed in Salt City recently in Syracuse, NY. Place 8th out of 18 with Shulk. Not the best unfortunately, but I've been practicing PM Ike much more as of late.

Anyways, I did fairly well against the characters I did face. Lost against a really amazing Sonic who made it to GF in my first match. And lost against a solid Sheik which eliminated me. The Sheik player was a former melee/PM player who has used Sheik since Melee, so he was pretty good. Very close match with him though, and I barely lost it by being gimped in Shield mode.

If you guys have any questions, let me know. Shulk seems really viable. And I feel the Sheik MU is 60-40 in her favor. But I still think it's doable. Speaking of which. GF was between the Sonic player I mentioned and an even better Sheik player. Sheik won, but it was very close. People think she's the best character in Smash 4 at the moment. (Though there is some debate with Rosalina.)

I can't argue with you there. Sheik's annoying but very doable anyway. imho the match up is not horrendous at all. Probably around 45-55 to 40-60, but congrats dude. That sounded like some fierce competition there.

Oh and you can post that in the tourney results thread :D

 

[FlareHabanero]

Sheik is one of those cases where knowing about the Monado Arts is important. For example, Shield is bad because you can be easily gimped and accumulate damage, but on the flip side you can gain some momentnum if you take advantage of the fact Sheik's attacks by themselves don't have a lot of power. However, it's importent to not activate Shield when you're over the edge, that can actually put you in a worse position.

 

[Berserker.]

Buster vs Sheik, can go either way. If you try to go on the offensive with buster, you'll probably get wrecked. If you try to be patient and stay defensive with buster, the damage output might not be as jaw dropping but it will still be sufficient enough plus, you won't take that much damage. The only problem art those annoying needles which force you to rush down. Buster can work but spacing is important as always. If it ain't working, just switch out quickly

Jump and speed vs Sheik are pretty much your best bet. You have to catch up with Sheik's speed so you'll need Shulk's 2 most mobile arts. It's also the best way to bypass those annoying needles. This doesn't guarantee auto-win or auto-favor (it doesn't) but it makes the match up easier and more manageable

Shield vs Sheik... Just look at what Soul Blazer said. Smash and Jump are for KO'ing

The basic gist of the match up is to u-tilt bouncing fish (or simply avoid bouncing fish if you're in mid-air... I never tried countering it though), use your range against Sheik (n-air, f-air and b-air) and avoid using default vision against Sheik because it's not really that useful unless you're countering f-smash, d-smash or u-smash. Oh, if you counter u-smash while you're in mid-air, you might miss the slash because she ducks after u-smashing lol. Power vision is probably waaay better in this match up. Hyper arts could work also because it kills.

Oh and about Diddy, I think what makes him annoying for Shulk is the fact that Shulk is combo fodder and he gets wrecked by grabs. Diddy loves grabbing and racking up damage off throws. You see where I'm coming from? As hard as it sounds, try not to get grabbed (a lot). Be as agile as possible. I was wrong about not using jump (Jerm was right on point btw). Just use jump and speed against Diddy

 

[Starfall11]

I tend to use Jump most against Sheik, and I almost 2 stocked her in the first match, so I believe it's most useful. Speed as well, but the damage reduction hurts. Having such a small jump in speed doesn't help against the needles either. With Jump it's easy to avoid them and poke at her.

Shield isn't the greatest against her since she can camp with needles. But I only activate in when I'm at 150%+ since I was too paranoid about death. In retrospect, it may have been better to stay in Jump, but shield can mess with people's patience and lead them to making mistakes.

 

[Berserker.]

I tend to use Jump most against Sheik, and I almost 2 stocked her in the first match, so I believe it's most useful. Speed as well, but the damage reduction hurts. Having such a small jump in speed doesn't help against the needles either. With Jump it's easy to avoid them and poke at her.

Shield isn't the greatest against her since she can camp with needles. But I only activate in when I'm at 150%+ since I was too paranoid about death. In retrospect, it may have been better to stay in Jump, but shield can mess with people's patience and lead them to making mistakes.

Once you get up close, I think speed is really useful although jump also works. If she tries to get around, you can also get around really quickly with speed and try to pressure her as much as possible.

Shield is actually pretty good only if you know you're gonna get rushed down. If you know the Sheik's gonna go all in then you can try to use shield and go on the defensive. If she camps, switch to jump

 

[Bonren]

I've been following this thread since its early days and haven't posted once lol

Anyways, can someone explain or go a little more in depth on why they think jump is good vs Sheik? In my matches vs good Sheik players(which isn't much loooool) I found speed to be wayyyy more better and jump be just meh.

With speed I feel like the empty short hops and nairs/grabs coupled with good shielding work really well against her. You aren't in the air as long when you use this art as opposed to Jump.

I may just not be the biggest fan (or just really bad) with jump , but against Shiek I feel like I'm not getting anything out of it. Just staying in the air playing a little campy, am I supposed to be approaching? Baiting airials? What are the options/mix ups I have during this art? What can I be doing to make the most out of it in this MU or in general? I really wanna know!

 

[Berserker.]

I've been following this thread since its early days and haven't posted once lol

Anyways, can someone explain or go a little more in depth on why they think jump is good vs Sheik? In my matches vs good Sheik players(which isn't much loooool) I found speed to be wayyyy more better and jump be just meh.

With speed I feel like the empty short hops and nairs/grabs coupled with good shielding work really well against her. You aren't in the air as long when you use this art as opposed to Jump.

I may just not be the biggest fan (or just really bad) with jump , but against Shiek I feel like I'm not getting anything out of it. Just staying in the air playing a little campy, am I supposed to be approaching? Baiting airials? What are the options/mix ups I have during this art? What can I be doing to make the most out of it in this MU or in general? I really wanna know!

It's kinda hard to explain but if I try to explain, it's because you can cover so much space with jump. Jump is simply so versatile. It's mobile, you can KO with it, you can safely rush down with it by crossing up n-air and b-air or hell even f-air, you can edgeguard with it. Eh. Not sure how to word this. It's in the OP. I'm feeling lazy today :|

I think this video sort of helps in showing why Jump is probably good. You probably know who the Shulk here is
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCY92iqRuck
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhTMY_PdeE0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CG10evtmccg

 

[Bonren]

It's kinda hard to explain but if I try to explain, it's because you can cover so much space with jump. Jump is simply so versatile. It's mobile, you can KO with it, you can safely rush down with it by crossing up n-air and b-air or hell even f-air, you can edgeguard with it. Eh. Not sure how to word this. It's in the OP. I'm feeling lazy today :|

I think this video sort of helps in showing why Jump is probably good. You probably know who the Shulk here is
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCY92iqRuck
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhTMY_PdeE0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CG10evtmccg

Oh wow. I must have been asleep or something when I read the OP because I completley missed out on so much info, I apologize!

I should have worded my question a little better. I understand off stage options,but when your opponent is grounded at neutral they can sit there and shield any sort of cross up you do. My initial stigma was "I can't grab in the air, I don't like this art that much."

After reading the OP and watching(re watching) those vids I see it now. What you said in the OP makes a lot of sense, "overwhelming your opponent". Im liking it! Oh and I actually was at TGC! I competed!

And it's not like grabbing is disabled while jump is active...idk why I thought so narrow-minded looool. ><

Thanks for all the info, I'm really feeling it!

 

[Starfall11]

If someone sits around with shield. I usually space with the tip of Nair, then apply pressure with ftilt or dtilt. On the other hand, empty jumps are your friend here. Use feints and land behind the opponent with a crossup Nair. Use empty jumps to feint aerials, then land and go for a quick throw. After an Uthrow, you can begin following them up with Jump.

I can't wait for the WiiU version to come out. Shulk will be much better with the c-stick aerials. And personally, it'll be so much easier for me to make the best of his range. I have a difficult time measuring the hitboxes on 3DS sometimes. Especially after playing for a long time.

 

[Berserker.]

Oh wow. I must have been asleep or something when I read the OP because I completley missed out on so much info, I apologize!

I should have worded my question a little better. I understand off stage options,but when your opponent is grounded at neutral they can sit there and shield any sort of cross up you do. My initial stigma was "I can't grab in the air, I don't like this art that much."

After reading the OP and watching(re watching) those vids I see it now. What you said in the OP makes a lot of sense, "overwhelming your opponent". Im liking it! Oh and I actually was at TGC! I competed!

And it's not like grabbing is disabled while jump is active...idk why I thought so narrow-minded looool. ><

Thanks for all the info, I'm really feeling it!

No problem

Also, I saw you in the results (You used Mario). Congrats on the placing by the way!

If someone sits around with shield. I usually space with the tip of Nair, then apply pressure with ftilt or dtilt. On the other hand, empty jumps are your friend here. Use feints and land behind the opponent with a crossup Nair. Use empty jumps to feint aerials, then land and go for a quick throw. After an Uthrow, you can begin following them up with Jump.

I can't wait for the WiiU version to come out. Shulk will be much better with the c-stick aerials. And personally, it'll be so much easier for me to make the best of his range. I have a difficult time measuring the hitboxes on 3DS sometimes. Especially after playing for a long time.

Retreating f-airs ;_;

Jumping backwards while using f-air (c-stick)

DACUS

Yeah. I can't wait. Too bad I'll be like, a month late to the party (I'm getting mine at December 25 because fuuuuu)

 

[Starfall11]

Don't feel too bad Berserker, I'll also be a month late. Hoping to get the WiiU for Christmas or buy it with some money around the holidays. Can't work consistently right now because of graduate school. It's okay, we'll have New Years Shulk!

 

[Claxus]

Same here. Feels depressing not being able to hype and get a Smash game on release for the first time... But dat console/handheld spam these days and their prices. Luckily I think I can cheapskate out this Christmas with an used WiiU. Need one for Xenoblade X, too. And then I'm screwed for getting the new 3DS any time soon.

Well, I've gotten quite used to the circle pad, really. I can do retreating F-airs consistently and such (even if it's technically a few milliseconds less efficient), I don't feel I really need a C-stick but it'll be good to have. I kind of like the pad now, honestly, I can feel the flow of battle as I slide it around all the time! (Dunban icon)

 

[Masonomace]

I don't mean to derail the current subject, but I'm just now noticing that Mighty Air Slash has the smallest portion of Beam ever. Shulk is literally swinging with the Monado sword by itself with a tiny inch of Beam at the end, & that's basically the "tipper" of MAS. All this means is we have to be closer to them for this move to connect as well because of the Beam being extremely short. It's much harder connecting with the move to deal 6% rather than 8%, & unless the Beam helps follow-up the 2nd hit more consistently, I wouldn't be spacing with MAS on-stage or to catch airborne targets.

Here's some GIFs for extra insight. Also the streak line from the Beam slash is basically a good sign of where the 6% will connect:

From the GIF on the right:

Thoughts?

 

[Berserker.]

I don't know. That's one tiny beam though but not much to say

Good to know though



http://smashboards.com/threads/update-1-0-4-releasing-this-month.377281/

Probably the right thread for this

 

[Masonomace]

Those GIFs are from NinjaLink's Custom Moves video back then before any patches were put through, but for everyone that noticed or not, I made some adjusting updating to the Thread OP.

Check out the part where it talks about this:
1. Monado Arts

And let me know what you think, things needed to be added, more information regarding the MArts for when they can & can't cycle through specific inputs, like cycling Arts while doing a pivot grab, or something like that. Sorry but thank you in advance.

Also I'm starting on the spoilers for the potential Doubles characters we could have synergy with involving strategies & such. Let me know about any Doubles experiences you've had & played through, expressing any genuine team-play you feel deserves to be mentioned about. Thanks in advance.

 

[Starfall11]

After more experience with Shulk, I'm beginning to think Custom Monado Arts could be more useful for tournament play. Decisive Marts really help with keeping increased mobility for a long time. And Decisive Shield is amazing when you get a stock lead. As a plus, all of the arts have less drawbacks/more benefits, so you can afford to stay in them longer and not switch. The only one you want to be careful with is Smash.

As for Hyper Monado Arts. It's hard for me to see them as viable in tournaments, since they last for such a short time, and the drawbacks are horrendous. But if you can make use of them quickly and master Mart canceling, then they're useful. In a match against my brothers robin, I jumped towards him and activated smash in the air. I feinted the Nair which he expected and grabbed him then used by Bthrow to KO him at 70%! It's pretty powerful, but they're very high risk high reward.

 

[Jigglymaster]

I have to disagree with your stance on Hyper monado arts completely. I think its the only viable custom for Shulk's Neutral B.

We all know that Shulk's Monado arts in the long run well, nerf shulk more than buff him, its proven to only be useful if you use it at an opportunist moment, its not something to spam, its something to be thought out carefully first to be used at the right time.

That said, the simple fact that the Hyper Monado is both stronger and shorter makes it seem like it was made just for an opportunist. Hyper Smash Art D-Throw will kill a lot of characters if they are above 70% which is incredibly crazy. Of course, if they have a good throw they can do the same to you. But thats the point, you only activate it when you're in the position for an opportunist moment, when you can make the most of out if and they cant. Should be noted also though that you can use the 3rd custom Vision for an incredibly early kill if you catch somebody attacking you while having the smash art on. It's incredible.

Shulk's Hyper Jump art makes his recovery incredible as well, idk, everything about it seems great. If the Monado can only be useful at an opportunist moment, then this custom is clearly the viable choice.

Meanwhile, for the Decisive Arts, I feel like is the worst of the 3. Being stuck in a art for a long time is probably the worst thing that can happen. When I play Shulk I find myself cancelling my arts alot, and I can't do that with this mode. I'm in shield? Oh just throw me off I can't cancel it into jump yeah thats fine. I landed a kill with Smash? Oh looks like I have to survive for another 18 seconds with this art on while you're at 0. Everything about it just screams out to me as bad, like I said before, the Monado Arts nerf more than buff him, and they're only useful at a specific time. 7 Seconds is all you need, and thats why I think the Hyper monado arts are the best.

 

[Berserker.]

We have 2 Shulk players (Phoenix052 and Silentdoom) that placed well (3rd and Top 6 respectively) with Hyper Monado Arts so I think it's very much viable. What makes Hyper Smash worth it, and viable for me imo is Hyper Smash's KO power and the extreme damage potential from 6 seconds of Hyper Buster. It may not be as potent as Decisive buster or Monado buster but being able to rack up ~50% damage in 6 seconds is all you need because Hyper Smash kills at like... 50-95% usually. Edit: I don't think it's a stretch that you rack up a little more damage with Vanilla Shulk from there

Although, Decisive being useless? It has its uses:

I run Decisive Monado arts more often than Hyper or Standard due to a skill discrepancy in my region. I understand it isn't the best in many situations. The big drawback is definitely the almost complete inability to switch to jump while recovering. However, saying that Buster is not good for Decisive is crazy talk. I wouldn't run it against a good player playing a good character, but I would run it against a good player playing a bad character. Any character worse than Shulk (meaning I'm not playing against the S-Tier for once in my life) can easily let the game get out of hand because of how explosive Shulk's damage output is due to the increased time in Buster. It lets a lead become insane and due to Sm4sh's system mechanics, it is not unreasonable to wait out Smash mode defensively. Note, however, that I'm talking about playing against opponents that do not deal well with Sword characters like Shulk. Note that this is niche use, but I do believe it to be the optimal choice in these scenarios.

That and it is probably the best doubles Arts because you can stay in Buster and Shield if you're teaming with a partner who kills things or you can stay in Smash and Shield (probably start the round in Buster) when teaming with a partner who can deal damage, or Shield and Jump/Speed if you want to stock tank. The increased duration lets you stay in whatever form you want long enough to do your job and damage/kill/survive two opponents. If you are teaming with a partner that can cover the other side of the Smash/Buster dichotomy, you can almost exclusively play one or the other and aim for the target you need to be hitting while your partner does his job with the other.

 

[Masonomace]

@ Starfall11 & @ Jigglymaster

About DMArts, it's actually the time it takes to activate itself that is the worst aspect about the Custom imo. The perfect example about DMArts that make them bad in mid-fight is when we're off-stage attempting to cycle to Jump. (Implying you'd be Vanilla atm)

DMArts take so long, that the first cycle you make to get to Jump you have to wait for basically 2 seconds & by that time, edge-guarding is already under way on your end. We have to realllllllly step it up & learn to cycle DMArts the moment you're in mid-launch if we want to make DMArts off-stage effective enough to keep up. We also have to remember that we can't use Air Slash while the kanji character is displayed, & it's displayed for 2 seconds so. . .the waiting is suffering when thinking real-time in a match while watching your opponent as they come after you.

Of course this is to help assist my point that DMArts are better off activated when you're grounded & aren't way off screen. The duration lasting a long time with the price of not able to de-activate them normally would be a double-edged sword, however the DMArts have amplified strengths & the weaknesses remain the same as regular MArts & that makes DMArts worthy to use.

HMArts activate themselves so much quicker that it's more advantageous for those short bursts of 6 seconds & because they activate earlier than regular MArts, the quick timing skill we needed to have for DMArts would benefit HMArts greatly. And even if we use MArts in general for the strengths to abide by the current situation, the weaknesses are glaring & they're really amp'd up.

I mean, basically HJump HBuster & HSmash all make us as light as, or lighter than , & 's weight is 102. The other stats that become decreased from HBuster & HSmash is painful, but again at least they only last for 6 seconds.

(I don't have more time to post as I'll be gone all day hanging with friends, bye for now everyone)

 

[Berserker.]

That's why using Hyper Arts requires timing and there are opportune moments when you can use it

Although, I still think default Arts is viable

 

[Claxus]

I think it ultimately just comes down to playstyle. Maybe certain matchups, too. But I think all versions of his arts are good.

His default Arts are versatile, you can usually go with any stance so long as you can avoid the downsides. Not much to be said.

Hyper Arts sort of requires Shulk to be more on the offensive, and limits his options within those 6 seconds. Very powerful, but so are the downsides, so enemies can just as well seek opportunities since Shulk only has 6 seconds to make a move. Or they can just avoid you for 6 seconds and that's that. IMO it's the most predictable and avoidable of his choices, but packs a massive punch. Also, Shield basically loses its entire purpose.

Decisive Arts on the other hand, aren't meant to be used for opportunities. It assumes a more calculative, perhaps strategic playstyle. The Arts are stronger with the same downsides, that's a pretty big plus for me. Of course the main issue is you can't switch, but that's why you put some thought into each choice, rather than just the buff you want. Buster is stronger and you have time to calmly make the best of it while playing safe, isn't that awesome? Shulk's recovery is good enough to always make it back on stage unless you're hit off-stage again, but if you're in vanilla, Decisive Jump makes up for the activation time anyway. Getting stuck in Decisive Smash after a KO isn't that bad when you can KO even earlier with it, and if anything, you can take advantage of your opponents trying to finish you off before it runs out.

Getting stuck off-stage with Shield is the main issue with the Decisive, and I don't have much advice for this one. But it will protect you a bit more from getting in that situation, and from even more damage. IMO, use Shield at mid-percents to take longer to reach your KO percent (rather than stretching your KO percent), and use Buster later instead, to try and rack up damage with zoning as they try to finish you off.

 

[OptimistNic]

I don't know if any of these videos help, but I've done some really cool things with Shulk in the past. A couple combos (*ahem* attack strings) are in here. http://optimistnic.tumblr.com/post/102506401281/i-heard-that-the-next-smash-3ds-update-will-delete

 

[Starfall11]

I would still have to disagree. I see that HArts are useful. They're definitely tournament viable. But Decisive can be if you abuse Speed, Shield, and Jump. Shield is useless in HArts. And if they see you activate smash, they'll avoid you for six seconds. It's pretty easy to avoid someone in Smash 4. With the spot dodges, dodge rolls, and movement options in this game, you can run away a lot. The best way to use Hyper Monado Arts in my opinion is by cancelling mid-combo when your opponent is on the defensive. And keep in mind, everytime you switch arts, you're vulnerable. So doing it right next to your opponent can be risky.

That said, they're definitely viable for the early KOs with Smash and insane damage you get from Buster. But the mobility arts and Shield lose a lot of their value with that custom. And the cooldown for arts remains the same. Which means sometimes you're stuck with Vanilla Shulk and 2-3 arts in recovery.

 

[Berserker.]

You can get your KO's with HSmash off edgeguarding too. Or by u-tilt. I'll agree about HMarts being the most offensive oriented and the riskiest but the reward is simply and undeniably amazing

 

[Masonomace]

Sup guys, so don't ask me how I was able to get these numbers, because the time invested in this was tedious but here's some numbers / data etc..

Floor attack Front & Back (Both sides deal the same damage, & there's no Blade or Beam hit-boxes) /sadface
Vanilla = 7
Jump = 7
Speed = 5
Shield = 5
Buster = 10 (Wasn't able to test the floor attack's bonus shield damage to see if we could break shields or not. If we can, h'oo boy)
Smash = 3
DBuster = 11
HSpeed = 4
HShield = 4
HBuster = 12 (The shield damage I bet is soooooooo real. . .this might break shields)
HSmash = 2

Trip Floor attack Front & Back (there's no Blade or Beam hit-boxes so thank goodness for that)
Vanilla = 5
Speed = 3
Shield = 3
Buster = 7 (Didn't test shield damage, but we could get away with using the Trip attack option)
Smash = 2
DBuster = 7 (I didn't test it's shield damage, but it probably does a fair amount to be safe using after tripping)
HSpeed = 2
HShield = 2
HBuster = 8 (H'oo man I didn't test the shield damage this does but if it's anything like a Floor attack. . .)
HSmash = 2

And as a final note about fully testing out the usefulness of using MArts, DMArts, & HMArts in conjunction with our Final Smash, I can say that because any HMArt wears off in the middle of Chain Attack, HBuster is the most solid overall MArt to augment the attack BUT requires extreme strict timing & quick succession after breaking the Smash Ball. Oh & HSmash can basically OHKO if their % is low.

 

[Berserker.]

The shield breaking with the floor attack+Buster is..... interesting

Also, I noticed that Shulk's f-tilt with HBuster is unsafe at low to mid %'s even if you hit with it but his d-tilt is safe in HBuster. Actually, d-tilt is really good with any version of buster because it's relatively safe

About Buster sucking against heavier characters, I think Hyper buster is what really sucks against heavier characters. Default/Decisive buster is fine.

 

[Masonomace]

The shield breaking with the floor attack+Buster is..... interesting

Also, I noticed that Shulk's f-tilt with HBuster is unsafe at low to mid %'s even if you hit with it but his d-tilt is safe in HBuster. Actually, d-tilt is really good with any version of buster because it's relatively safe

About Buster sucking against heavier characters, I think Hyper buster is what really sucks against heavier characters. Default/Decisive buster is fine.

Interesting. HBuster's F-tilt is unsafe on-hit but it would be completely safe on-shield? I wish that came to my mind so I'd test it >_<. I dig HBuster's D-tilt though, I remember doing that for super-spacing N-airs so I'm all for that. I'm still under the notion that HMArts in regards to HBuster is better off for the lighter characters. So yeah I have more info to update about General info about MArts & when we can & can't activate them.

 

[Berserker.]

HBuster vs Heavy characters is dumb. Maybe it won't be dumb if d-tilt and maybe u-tilt are the only moves you'll use. I think f-tilt with HBuster is safe on shields. I don't know. I'm guessing here about it being safe on shields

 

[Masonomace]

HBuster vs Heavy characters is dumb. Maybe it won't be dumb if d-tilt and maybe u-tilt are the only moves you'll use. I think f-tilt with HBuster is safe on shields. I don't know. I'm guessing here about it being safe on shields

I know for sure U-tilt is safe on shield, because this Bowser in training mode shielded a close-up Blade U-tilt & it literally ate half of his shield pushing him back quite a bit of distance.

Of course, they could just spot-dodge our tilts / smashes.

 

[Berserker.]

Man... B-air is so good. In case if you get to predictable with n-air, you can use b-air instead because its hitbox is waaaay bigger than it looks. Its hitbox is not strictly at the back but I'm sure everyone knows this but its hitbox reaches in front and below Shulk. I see why it's called "B-air of justice"

Of course, you can use f-air buuuut b-air's damage up close is amazing. You can also cancel the landing lag with Shulk's specials. You can only do this if you FH B-air

 

[Masonomace]

Man... B-air is so good. In case if you get to predictable with n-air, you can use b-air instead because its hitbox is waaaay bigger than it looks. Its hitbox is not strictly at the back but I'm sure everyone knows this but its hitbox reaches in front and below Shulk. I see why it's called "B-air of justice"

Of course, you can use f-air buuuut b-air's damage up close is amazing. You can also cancel the landing lag with Shulk's specials

It's so good of an aerial that from my experiences with this move I've hit players within the between area of the front & below, it's basically a diagonal hit-box, this move I swear. Plus B-air's Beam deals more % damage than the Beam in F-air, & we all know B-air's horizontal range compared to F-air. Huge!

This will definitely be a C-stick exclusive moment, but at times I'm edge-guarding I'll use the front-hitting portion of B-air to completely gimp the opponent from ever recovering back. It's slightly stronger of an attack than F-air imo, but without C-stick all I can do with the B-air mix-up is retreat with it hoping to frame trap their air-dodge.

EDIT: (And I updated the Tables with numbers & stuff. Thanks again for all those numbers =] )

 

[Berserker.]

Buster f-air (Blade hit) = Buster b-air (Tip)
Vanilla f-air (Blade hit) < B-air (Tip)

 

[FlareHabanero]

Just remember, back aerial is bad if you have Speed active. Your jump becomes short enough where if you try to short hop, your back aerial will end prematurely. This can cause a poking attempt to backfire since the actual hitboxes don't appear. Neutral aerial has a similar problem to a lesser extent.

 

[Masonomace]

No sweat, I'll adjust to Speed DSpeed or HSpeed by using FH > B-air instead of SH. No biggie for meee. The slight humor in HSpeed when inputting aerials is well, you have to FH because the jump height is wayyyy too short.

If anything, we can attempt a mix-up of running towards someone, & buffer SH > N-air so that the drive-by of us airborne passes them & the start-up behind N-air may connect hitting them.

 

[Berserker.]

Just remember, back aerial is bad if you have Speed active. Your jump becomes short enough where if you try to short hop, your back aerial will end prematurely. This can cause a poking attempt to backfire since the actual hitboxes don't appear. Neutral aerial has a similar problem to a lesser extent.

The shortened jump height does hurt

But n-air does benefit from the jump nerf since you can SH (or SHFF) n-air with speed activated. Only problem is that it's a lot more susceptible to being shield grabbed if you get too insane with it (Plus, it has less impact on shield than vanilla/jump)