Meta "This is the Monado's Power" - Metagame Discussion

[Masonomace]

U-air is eeeeeeeeh

Hard to land but pretty good against air dodgers

The 1st hit of U-air could prop them up, & depending they have no DJ to jump away, we might be able to bait them with shield+grab. For BF, SH > U-air under platform would be good.

<Trying to give justice for U-air, when there's little Justicecream flavors to choose between.

 

[Claxus]

U-air is underrated IMO. One of my favorites. It's a bit delayed and generally weak, but it's a U-air with tons of range. It hits straight up, which is very advantageous as that's a terrible position to be in. Closer to the ground, it will force them to air dodge, and since it has very short endlag, you can FF and punish their landing.

It's also my go-to kill move if I'm in Smash and they end up in the air. It can kill surprisingly good. Can get some gimps in Jump if played right, too.

If you hit them with it on the ground, you can combo into another U-air at the right percent (maybe F-air at lower percents), or possibly Air Slash. Not the best air-to-ground option, but it sets up amazing follow-ups. If I see a good chance, I'll try to cross them up using U-air as I fall behind them so it's extra safe, and a good distraction from all the N-airs.

If you bring Monado Art land canceling into it, it can combo into almost anything.

 

[Berserker.]

Did not think about that. Will try utilizing that more often

 

[Opana]

U-air is eeeeeeeeh

Hard to land but pretty good against air dodgers

They can air dodge it, but if they don't Jump Shulk can follow an uthrow into uair finish.

 

[Berserker.]

Additionally....

I used hyper Monado Arts and went on training so the positioning was constant (Somewhere near the edge)

U-smash (HSmash) KO's at 72%
D-smash blade (HSmash) KO's at 64%
D-smash tip (HSmash) KO's at 83%... Big difference
F-smash angled up and up close (HSmash) KO's at 65%
F-smash angled up and spaced (HSmash) KO's at 75%
F-smash angled up and SECOND HIT ONLY (Hsmash) KO's at.... 72%....
F-smash forward and up close (HSmash) KO's at 72%
F-smash forward and spaced (HSmash) KO's at 84%
F-smash forward and SECOND HIT ONLY (HSmash) KO's at 80%....

What the hell.... D-smash seems to have the highest knockback. Yeah. That's reasonable. The confusing part is how landing the second hit of f-smash has more knockback than connecting both hits...

I also tried it out with Monado Arts to see if it results to something different. It's the same banana

Anyone can think of a reason? Maybe I'm wrong but I've been doing this a lot atm


Also.....

F-smash second hit tipped (HBuster) deals 18% damage. You can actually get this damage by spacing the first hit. First hit always stays at 8% whether you tip it or not
F-smash's beam up close (HBuster) deals 21% damage. This was taken from the damage chart btw

I also tried tipping F-smash with HSmash activated. KO range seems the same

 

[erico9001]

U-air is underrated IMO. One of my favorites. It's a bit delayed and generally weak, but it's a U-air with tons of range. It hits straight up, which is very advantageous as that's a terrible position to be in. Closer to the ground, it will force them to air dodge, and since it has very short endlag, you can FF and punish their landing.

It's also my go-to kill move if I'm in Smash and they end up in the air. It can kill surprisingly good. Can get some gimps in Jump if played right, too.

If you hit them with it on the ground, you can combo into another U-air at the right percent (maybe F-air at lower percents), or possibly Air Slash. Not the best air-to-ground option, but it sets up amazing follow-ups. If I see a good chance, I'll try to cross them up using U-air as I fall behind them so it's extra safe, and a good distraction from all the N-airs.

If you bring Monado Art land canceling into it, it can combo into almost anything.

Same here! I especially love using MJump with U-air. I'm still working on cancelling things with Monado Arts though.

 

[Berserker.]

Forgot some other stuff

Same set up as usual. Not on the center. Just somewhere near the edge where they usually spawn. All on Bowser. Hyper smash

76% d-smash back hit blade
91% d-smash back hit tip

 

[Starfall11]

Hmmm. I could have swore B-air had less landing lag than F-air. Seemed that way to me anyways. Must just be the positioning and reach is so good that it's difficult to punish.

 

[NT 3000]

IT DID IT AGAIN....it unfollowed the thread -_-

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Hmmm. I could have swore B-air had less landing lag than F-air. Seemed that way to me anyways. Must just be the positioning and reach is so good that it's difficult to punish.

Neither of the two are really that laggy, but f-air has less lag, its more of your ground options out of the moves are slow...

 

[Berserker.]

Anyone using Shulks f-smash for roll/spot dodge punishing? Cause I'm really sort of starting to feel it a bit even though all I need is d-smash but sometimes when I use d-smash, chances are only the weak hit will kick in.

 

[Claxus]

If they're roll-happy, maybe... Against good players (harder to predict and time a roll punish), a lot of times the FSmash whiffs when they roll right into it. The active frames are pretty bad, so if you don't time it perfectly as the beam activates it'll miss.

And DSmash is too amazing as a roll punish to not go for it. Even the weaker hits are better than missing.

I actually go for USmash if not that, though. It's really fast and has a generous hitbox around Shulk. It has crazy killing power, or otherwise sets them up in a bad position above you. The reason I use it is because you can do it while running, so you can position and use it more freely to their rolls.

Man, hard-reading a roll and readying an USmash with MA Smash for them to roll into is the best. Kills so easily and feels satisfying as heck with the animation and how fast they go flying.

 

[NT 3000]

Anyone using Shulks f-smash for roll/spot dodge punishing? Cause I'm really sort of starting to feel it a bit even though all I need is d-smash but sometimes when I use d-smash, chances are only the weak hit will kick in.

So I use either fsmash or dash usmash for rolls punishes butttttt fsmash a start up is a lot and honestly rolls are so good in this game. It's not your best option. Tilts imo are better even if less powerful.

 

[Berserker.]

Well, I don't seem to use it a lot for punishing but it's definitely worked when I've used it. Especially against the characters with slow rolls

 

[Opana]

Just having jump activated is a risky but effective mind game as they expect jumps lol. I'd do a lot of full hop fsst fall spaced bairs usually, but when I mixed it up some the results were great.

Also, would having smash on let you escape combos/multi hit moves like DH's fsmash? Even if you escaped, would it do more damage overall?

Also, anyone elsr use shield while recovering from time to time? It doesn't reduce speed right away so depending on the MU you can usually make it back. Ledge dropping, with fast enough fingers allows you to change marts and recover in time too.

Last thing, I love shuffling marts at insane speeds lol. I do it so fast my arm feels worn out, but it's awesome seeing the speed at which you can do it. I never can stop on a mart of my choosing though, so it's a gamble. When my pc is fixed, I'll upload a vid of the shuffling, it's awesome lol.

 

[Berserker.]

Just having jump activated is a risky but effective mind game as they expect jumps lol. I'd do a lot of full hop fsst fall spaced bairs usually, but when I mixed it up some the results were great.

Also, would having smash on let you escape combos/multi hit moves like DH's fsmash? Even if you escaped, would it do more damage overall?

Also, anyone elsr use shield while recovering from time to time? It doesn't reduce speed right away so depending on the MU you can usually make it back. Ledge dropping, with fast enough fingers allows you to change marts and recover in time too.

Last thing, I love shuffling marts at insane speeds lol. I do it so fast my arm feels worn out, but it's awesome seeing the speed at which you can do it. I never can stop on a mart of my choosing though, so it's a gamble. When my pc is fixed, I'll upload a vid of the shuffling, it's awesome lol.

You don't take more damage with Smash. It'd probably let you escape some multi hitters

I use shield when I'm 99% sure I'm gonna recover back safely and when I have a second jump to spare. In case I get wrecked by an aerial again, I can at least switch to jump fast then use the second jump to recover

 

[Opana]

Nice.

Do you think Smash would be viable early on vs. a Mac? I've gotten gimps on them using Smash early, but if it reduces their combo potential then that'd be fantastic.

Seriously thought I took more damage, so thanks a ton.

You don't take more damage with Smash. It'd probably let you escape some multi hitters

I use shield when I'm 99% sure I'm gonna recover back safely and when I have a second jump to spare. In case I get wrecked by an aerial again, I can at least switch to jump fast then use the second jump to recover

 

[Berserker.]

Nice.

Do you think Smash would be viable early on vs. a Mac? I've gotten gimps on them using Smash early, but if it reduces their combo potential then that'd be fantastic.

Seriously thought I took more damage, so thanks a ton.

Not sure. Speed, smash or shield are viable against Mac imo at the start. Speed for grabs, shield because he'll rush at you anyway and you don't even take much knockback or damage, smash because you'd wanna attempt knocking him off stage. Personally, I'd stay with shield

Off topic but in one of these videos, Trela does use smash at the start of a match. I just can't find out which one since I might take up some of the bandwidth of my internet (someone's streaming). Just check which one. This one's against Sheik btw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCY92iqRuck
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhTMY_PdeE0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CG10evtmccg

These ones are against Mac. I think he might have attempted using smash at the start but I don't know which match. Can't open a video atm for reasons

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gogJflCwgQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2enBn3dF1Kc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0woKbC2hlbM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3G7y2mLhqk

 

[Opana]

Will look into them in a bit, thanks!

 

[LordTakeo]

IT DID IT AGAIN....it unfollowed the thread -_-

Happened to me too. Don't worry.

 

[Opana]

High Speed Monado Art Shuffling

Could this be a viable mind game in any situation/

 

[Claxus]

Probably not. I think people really only react to the art you actually choose. I still do that for fun, sometimes, usually when waiting for them to respawn, or sometimes if we end up with a lot of space with neither of us approaching. I guess it might make some people try to go aggressive while you're doing it... But that would generally mean bad players.

Oh, actually, sometimes I do it while running towards them, then jump and use whatever art stopped at the time for a MA landing-cancel. Monado Art Roulette Shuffle Land Cancel? The ultimate mindgame where even I don't know what I'm gonna use and then just go with the flow. But yeah, it's easier to time a MA landing cancel when you're just mashing B and stop when you're gonna come down.

 

[Opana]

Probably not. I think people really only react to the art you actually choose. I still do that for fun, sometimes, usually when waiting for them to respawn, or sometimes if we end up with a lot of space with neither of us approaching. I guess it might make some people try to go aggressive while you're doing it... But that would generally mean bad players.

Oh, actually, sometimes I do it while running towards them, then jump and use whatever art stopped at the time for a MA landing-cancel. Monado Art Roulette Shuffle Land Cancel? The ultimate mindgame where even I don't know what I'm gonna use and then just go with the flow. But yeah, it's easier to time a MA landing cancel when you're just mashing B and stop when you're gonna come down.

Thanks for the input, I use it as a roulette as well lol.

 

[Jade_Rock55]

Why is his f-smash so slow...it can be shielded and then they just drop shield and dash grab to combo.Dash attack is the same.

 

[Berserker.]

I never use dash attack. It's easy to miss. As for his f-smash, it's in the same situation as back slash except I use it slightly more often. Oh and I use f-smash for edgeguarding

 

[Masonomace]

Why is his f-smash so slow...it can be shielded and then they just drop shield and dash grab to combo.Dash attack is the same.

The answer is stutterstepping the F-smash away, or pivoting with it, so that you're super-spacing with the very tip of the 2nd hit. But I'm willing to bet money you'll still get punished from their OoS option.

That and F-smash being used in Netural Game is risk. Unless you're edge-guarding, punishing a landing, challenging an approach / rush-down, or baiting someone from afar with the end lag, F-smash is risk.

 

[Masonomace]

Some values aren't correct though in the damage chart I put. Pretty sure some of them are decimals (0 damage registered as 1%). Ugh. I think I'll do a rerun with everything tomorrow. idk

Which values exactly? I'm on the urge of adding the values now since it's the weekend & I was wondering which values are in question. I did add some values in that you made a second notion of in a later post, such as HBuster's F-smash values, but after that I don't want to add the rest yet.

Monado Art Roulette Shuffle Land Cancel? The ultimate mindgame where even I don't know what I'm gonna use and then just go with the flow.

How about, the MArt British Roulette Landing Cancel?
That moment when you land with HSmash & they powershield + grab > strong throw KO'ing us. *Russian Roulette jokes*

 

[Opana]

I never use dash attack. It's easy to miss. As for his f-smash, it's in the same situation as back slash except I use it slightly more often. Oh and I use f-smash for edgeguarding

I use it to close the gap if they're over the ledge, otherwise it's almost exclusively used in shield due to the shift forward, although not too much. I use Back Slash as a way to cover a lot of area with a punish, and in rare scenarios a form of suicdide, maybe a shulkcide? Anyway, just use it offstage when in the lead and it either pushes them too far from the stage or off the screen to death.

 

[CupofT]

I had a Shulkcide yesterday. Shulk dittos. other Shulk hanging off the ledge. I decide to YOLO Back Slash. Stage spikes other Shulk but he wasn't high enough % and I hit the blast zone first.
Side note. Air Slash can stage spike if they are hanging or not able to grab ledge/invincible frames before second slash.

N-air destroys so many of Ganondorfs options. Just stand in front of him and N-air. If they do not know approach "smartly" they will get frustrated at N-air

I also need to work on my recovery. I always try going extra deep and I Air Slash back to stage and lift up my opponent back to stage.

 

[Opana]

I had a Shulkcide yesterday. Shulk dittos. other Shulk hanging off the ledge. I decide to YOLO Back Slash. Stage spikes other Shulk but he wasn't high enough % and I hit the blast zone first.
Side note. Air Slash can stage spike if they are hanging or not able to grab ledge/invincible frames before second slash.

N-air destroys so many of Ganondorfs options. Just stand in front of him and N-air. If they do not know approach "smartly" they will get frustrated at N-air

I also need to work on my recovery. I always try going extra deep and I Air Slash back to stage and lift up my opponent back to stage.

Shielding a nair is its downfall, and if it's a powershield then the dorf is in even more an advantageous position.Of course, a well spaced nair is all good, but still hitting the shield kinda sours its sweet potential imo. I've learned not o rely so much on my nair because of this. I still think Shulk has the advantage though, due to his amazing gimp game on dorf.

 

[Starfall11]

Nair is still one of our greatest tools. I have found that as people learn the MU with Shulk, it becomes harder and harder to abuse. People have been shield grabbing me all the time lately. Specifically zoners like Robin and Palutena where I'm forced to approach.

It becomes extremely frustrating, but I have been a bit off of my game lately. Need to space my Nairs with the tip, and I need to empty jump into a throw more often. That usually works to put pressure on people who like to shield grab. However, now people are reading the empty jumps and using dash attacks or AA attacks to hit me out of the air.

I've been frustrated with jump as of late, and I'm looking for ways to approach on the ground. Which is increasingly difficult. Speed is nice, but the damage reduction really puts us at a disadvantage unless we maintain all momentum. So I may resort to Vanilla or Buster for some of these matchups. What do you guys think?

 

[NT 3000]

Nair is still one of our greatest tools. I have found that as people learn the MU with Shulk, it becomes harder and harder to abuse. People have been shield grabbing me all the time lately. Specifically zoners like Robin and Palutena where I'm forced to approach.

It becomes extremely frustrating, but I have been a bit off of my game lately. Need to space my Nairs with the tip, and I need to empty jump into a throw more often. That usually works to put pressure on people who like to shield grab. However, now people are reading the empty jumps and using dash attacks or AA attacks to hit me out of the air.

I've been frustrated with jump as of late, and I'm looking for ways to approach on the ground. Which is increasingly difficult. Speed is nice, but the damage reduction really puts us at a disadvantage unless we maintain all momentum. So I may resort to Vanilla or Buster for some of these matchups. What do you guys think?

Honestly I have been off my game too but...nair spacing is all day with shulk. I'll nair then punish the grab whiff with either dwn tilt or ftilt. With jump art I've been crossing people up with nair and then ftilt punish or grabbing.

 

[Opana]

Nair is still one of our greatest tools. I have found that as people learn the MU with Shulk, it becomes harder and harder to abuse. People have been shield grabbing me all the time lately. Specifically zoners like Robin and Palutena where I'm forced to approach.

It becomes extremely frustrating, but I have been a bit off of my game lately. Need to space my Nairs with the tip, and I need to empty jump into a throw more often. That usually works to put pressure on people who like to shield grab. However, now people are reading the empty jumps and using dash attacks or AA attacks to hit me out of the air.

I've been frustrated with jump as of late, and I'm looking for ways to approach on the ground. Which is increasingly difficult. Speed is nice, but the damage reduction really puts us at a disadvantage unless we maintain all momentum. So I may resort to Vanilla or Buster for some of these matchups. What do you guys think?

I activate Jump as a mind game tbh, I'll use some empty jumps maybe but they don't expect ground approaches and the lack of damage reduction helps this. Besides, if we mess up we're already in Jump lol.

 

[Claxus]

These days people are seemingly starting to get the message. It's been rather rough sometimes, and I get my N-airs punished all the time. I really don't abuse it that much these days. If I do it, it's from shorthops and more sparingly or just defensively. From the air, I try to only use it as I fast fall past them, or perfectly spaced from the front. It's just too easy to shieldgrab. Any aerial approach in the game suffers this, unfortunately... It's extremely tedious to fight Greninjas or Dr. Marios and others when they shoot their projectiles all day, because a good player will shieldgrab any attempt to go above their stream of projectiles and, there's really not much you can do because countering any aerial in the game is as simple as standing and blocking.

I've been laying back on air-to-ground, unless again, it's crossing up or I can space it perfectly. I just jump around them a lot with empty landings or just coptering around with N-airs for no reason, just not trying to attack them. Close the distance and try to make them lower their defense, then an occasional N-air works wonders. Alternatively, empty landings into grab can really throw people off guard, since Jump fastfalls so fast.

Speed has been more prominent for me lately, as well. Similar tactics, with occasional spaced N-airs, and making use of the amazing pivot game. Close the distance but stay patient, and use pivot tilts and grabs to apply pressure and punish. Just make them nervous by dancing around them and feinting a lot. Pivot grabbing is one of Shulk's most fearsome offensive abilities, it happens in a flash and is very hard to punish if you slide past them. Opponents tend to get more aggressive when you're bullying them with Speed, and sometimes will take into the air, where you can make use of those amazing aerials.

And something I've been doing quite a lot now, is short-hopping towards them with an immediate F-air, and then spacing back mid-attack. It has some really nice range and is pretty safe since you backpedal away while striking. Can be a bit hard to pull off the shorthop and F-air at the same time, though. In Speed, it works pretty good with full jumps. In Jump, you can, instead of backing away, just swipe and then keep flying over their head. This is more or less effective depending on character height, but I find it's been a safe offensive method. I think it's actually extremely useful, it's been rivaling N-air for me.

 

[Starfall11]

Yes, yes, and yes. Thanks for the great advice guys. I started doing some of these things, and completely forgot. As I stopped playing Smash 3DS for a while to pick up PM Ike.

Anyways, I'm liking some of those options. I tend to alternate between FF Nair and FF feint into throw. But those two options aren't enough to keep mixing up good players. I think I will start crossing them up with Nair and going for pivot throws/pivot F-tilts. Seems like F-tilt was made for pivots anyways. It comes out fast, has great range, and enough shield stun to make it extremely difficult if not impossible to punish.

I'll also space better with Nair and follow with Ftilt or Dtilt, as those can catch people off guard. Thanks again for the advice. Still not sold on Speed due to the damage reduction, but his combo potential in that form is great. Especially with followups after throws. So I may begin abusing it again.

Edit: Forgot to mention that I really enjoy the backpedal F-air too. It allows you to space properly and avoid a punish. Makes you float backwards, and helps prevent people from approaching you. Somewhat difficult to pull off consistently though. I mainly get it when I'm in the flow.

 

[Opana]

Pivot Grabs and using the momentum to offstage edge guard are pretty good uses for Speed. I also ,like running off and bair stage spiking. Aside from that though, it lets you ge nairs out faster with smaller jumps.

 

[Heropon Riki]

How do you fight Zero Suit Samus and Captain Falcon?

 

[meleebrawler]

Yes, yes, and yes. Thanks for the great advice guys. I started doing some of these things, and completely forgot. As I stopped playing Smash 3DS for a while to pick up PM Ike.

Anyways, I'm liking some of those options. I tend to alternate between FF Nair and FF feint into throw. But those two options aren't enough to keep mixing up good players. I think I will start crossing them up with Nair and going for pivot throws/pivot F-tilts. Seems like F-tilt was made for pivots anyways. It comes out fast, has great range, and enough shield stun to make it extremely difficult if not impossible to punish.

I'll also space better with Nair and follow with Ftilt or Dtilt, as those can catch people off guard. Thanks again for the advice. Still not sold on Speed due to the damage reduction, but his combo potential in that form is great. Especially with followups after throws. So I may begin abusing it again.

Edit: Forgot to mention that I really enjoy the backpedal F-air too. It allows you to space properly and avoid a punish. Makes you float backwards, and helps prevent people from approaching you. Somewhat difficult to pull off consistently though. I mainly get it when I'm in the flow.

Could you maybe do a crossup Nair with Speed? (I.e land behind them as you do it.)

 

[Claxus]

How do you fight Zero Suit Samus and Captain Falcon?

Check out these topics:
http://smashboards.com/threads/help-with-some-shulk-matchups.374225/#post-17817373
http://smashboards.com/threads/shulk-vs-zero-suit-samus.375752/

Could you maybe do a crossup Nair with Speed? (I.e land behind them as you do it.)

It's possible, but nor too practical IMO. You have to start the jump really close to them, since Speed's jump is so short. By then, it was probably better to do a pivot grab or such.

 

[JackPR]

I don't think vanilla Shulk has been talked about enough, although I assume you could probably handle it similarly to buster since the mobility is the same, but maybe a little more aggressive since the knockback and hitstun are greater than buster. The damage output isn't horrible either. Obviously, certain match ups almost require MArts