Meta "This is the Monado's Power" - Metagame Discussion

[NT 3000]

I don't think vanilla Shulk has been talked about enough, although I assume you could probably handle it similarly to buster since the mobility is the same, but maybe a little more aggressive since the knockback and hitstun are greater than buster. The damage output isn't horrible either. Obviously, certain match ups almost require MArts

I play Ike too so really for me default shulk is like Ike with less kill power. Space nairs>jab 1-2-3 or grab. Shulks tilts are so good too in neutral game.

 

[JackPR]

I play Ike too so really for me default shulk is like Ike with less kill power. Space nairs>jab 1-2-3 or grab. Shulks tilts are so good too in neutral game.

Are there any true combos or almost certain combos with Shulk after throwing or after nair-->jab 1, 2, 3?

 

[Berserker.]

Nair is still one of our greatest tools. I have found that as people learn the MU with Shulk, it becomes harder and harder to abuse. People have been shield grabbing me all the time lately. Specifically zoners like Robin and Palutena where I'm forced to approach.

I know right lmao. The other players in my region got the message also. I had to switch up my game plan and I had to start tinkering around with customs

It becomes extremely frustrating, but I have been a bit off of my game lately. Need to space my Nairs with the tip, and I need to empty jump into a throw more often. That usually works to put pressure on people who like to shield grab. However, now people are reading the empty jumps and using dash attacks or AA attacks to hit me out of the air.

Empty jumps are still sort of the way to go tbh (Just play safer with it) and spaced n-airs. With hyper jump, you can practically punish from any angle now.

I've been frustrated with jump as of late, and I'm looking for ways to approach on the ground. Which is increasingly difficult. Speed is nice, but the damage reduction really puts us at a disadvantage unless we maintain all momentum. So I may resort to Vanilla or Buster for some of these matchups. What do you guys think?

That's why I've been using buster/shield as of the late exclusively for some match ups (Peach, ZSS, Sheik, Kirby, Jigglypuff). It sort of forces you to play very safely while dealing a lot of damage as opposed to jump/speed where you rush down but you need to space you n-airs. Just my opinion but, yeah.

I'm starting to think HSmash with Back Slash Charge is a good idea. Problem with shield is that it doesn't even do that much hitsun so I'd need a move that knocksback. With HSmash, I can do that plus, I don't take additional damage and I got the super armor. What do you guys think?


Oh and counter timbre is insane. I gotta think thrice now when doing something. Prepare your busters with this one

 

[Claxus]

Are there any true combos or almost certain combos with Shulk after throwing or after nair-->jab 1, 2, 3?

He doesn't have any combos off throws, the closest is U-throw into U-tilt, but while it sets up beautifully, it's easily dodged. His only true combo is N-air > attack/grab. Since N-air is his only attack that can lead to a true combo, that's all he has.

The closest thing to a combo longer than that is N-air > U-tilt > Air Slash. Four hit combo, but the AS is avoidable, though it can catch them off guard if they're expecting another U-tilt which is a tiny bit slower.

And N-air > Jab 1 (2) > attack/grab. No third hit, second is optional. This works nicely if they don't jump away... You stop the jabs so they get stuck in a landing animation, then you can hit them with something, sometimes even a FSmash if you did it with the second jab. But again, they can simply jump away... Which is very likely.

 

[Jade_Rock55]

...Just went on like a 20 losing streak then went 50/50 for a bit and then won last 10.People are figuring out Shulk!

 

[Berserker.]

Maybe there are times where Jump against certain match ups is a bad idea (*cough* Kirby, Peach, Jigglypuff, ZSS, Sheik).

Although jump/speed is something you should use against Marcina.

@ Jade_Rock55 What did you do for your last 10 matches dude?

 

[Jade_Rock55]

Got angry and beat everyone from rage!No seriously I was pretty mad.My win percent only went down 2% so whatever.

 

[Berserker.]

You guys have to master spacing or tipping n-air now

:>

 

[JackPR]

He doesn't have any combos off throws, the closest is U-throw into U-tilt, but while it sets up beautifully, it's easily dodged. His only true combo is N-air > attack/grab. Since N-air is his only attack that can lead to a true combo, that's all he has.

The closest thing to a combo longer than that is N-air > U-tilt > Air Slash. Four hit combo, but the AS is avoidable, though it can catch them off guard if they're expecting another U-tilt which is a tiny bit slower.

And N-air > Jab 1 (2) > attack/grab. No third hit, second is optional. This works nicely if they don't jump away... You stop the jabs so they get stuck in a landing animation, then you can hit them with something, sometimes even a FSmash if you did it with the second jab. But again, they can simply jump away... Which is very likely.

Thanks alot, this is gonna sound like a stretch and it isn't a true combo but it has worked quite a few times for me, back throw at lower percentages to backslash. It sounds crazy, but what you do is you jump after them after the throw, so it would be:
Bthrow--> jump towards opponent--> backslash
I did not write short hop or full hop because it depends on the MArt that is being used and on the opponents percentage. It does get predictable really quickly, but can give you quite a bit of early damage.

 

[Jade_Rock55]

Its still unfair that a tipped shielded f-smash can almost always be punished.

 

[Berserker.]

We can't do anything about it. You can either relegate it to being a pure punish tool or for edgeguarding

And guys, start getting the tipping right with n-air and you'll be fine

 

[Claxus]

Thanks alot, this is gonna sound like a stretch and it isn't a true combo but it has worked quite a few times for me, back throw at lower percentages to backslash. It sounds crazy, but what you do is you jump after them after the throw, so it would be:
Bthrow--> jump towards opponent--> backslash
I did not write short hop or full hop because it depends on the MArt that is being used and on the opponents percentage. It does get predictable really quickly, but can give you quite a bit of early damage.

That's more of a set-up than a combo, but yeah, it's pretty good. I actually use it later on, preferably with Jump. Toss them pretty far and go up high after them, and crash down with backslash. Or wait and do it right as they'll land. On that note, at later percentages, U-throw and U-tilt can lead to crossing them up in the air with backslash.

We can't do anything about it. You can either relegate it to being a pure punish tool or for edgeguarding

And guys, start getting the tipping right with n-air and you'll be fine

Some characters can still punish it though, with shield and then a quick micro-dash grab. Captain Falcon, Greninja, and other fast characters. Depending on how you hit and how fast they react.

 

[Berserker.]

Some characters can still punish it though, with shield and then a quick micro-dash grab. Captain Falcon, Greninja, and other fast characters. Depending on how you hit and how fast they react.

I don't think you'll be spacing your n-airs against those certain characters a lot since you're suppose to be on the defensive against most fast characters which means more defensive utilization of his tilts and less usage of n-air (but still use n-air often for defensive purposes now)

Regardless whether if they can punish it or not, spacing n-air is still something you need to get used to anyway

 

[NT 3000]

Are there any true combos or almost certain combos with Shulk after throwing or after nair-->jab 1, 2, 3?

His combo game is very limited but nair>fair works till decently high percentage just takes some quick reaction. I've gotten two utilts to work. Shulk mostly has setup combos. Forcing someone to air dodge to punish.

 

[Berserker.]

Does anyone ever use air slash instead of whatever aerial in aerial fights? It's helped me a lot and also bit me in the ass a lot

 

[MarioFireRed]

I usually opt for Fair or Uair depending on my position relative to them, typically the former. As for AS I find that too risky since it leaves me vulnerable if I miss and I fall in a predictable pattern, that is (for the most part) straight down.

 

[Berserker.]

As for AS I find that too risky since it leaves me vulnerable if I miss and I fall in a predictable pattern, that is (for the most part) straight down.

That's pretty much where I meant, bite my in the ass a lot. Lol.

Sometimes, I don't think f-air comes out fast enough so I get desperate and use AS or vision

 

[JackPR]

That's pretty much where I meant, bite my in the *** a lot. Lol.

Sometimes, I don't think f-air comes out fast enough so I get desperate and use AS or vision

That's the thing, Shulk definitely requires alot of patience, but I get you, especially after using rushdown characters for a while or being in speed or jump, its easy to forget.

Although, is fair really that slow? I find it to be one of his easiest aerials to land. I guess you could try to go for a nair and if you miss you wont really have any ending lag.

 

[MarioFireRed]

The thing about Nair is that I only find it useful if I come into contact with the ground while I perform it to cancel the animation, such as SH's. Also the fully played animation of Nair takes too long to recover from in my tastes, hence why I prefer Fair in full jumps/gimps because it's one quick overhead slash in front of you.

 

[JackPR]

The thing about Nair is that I only find it useful if I come into contact with the ground while I perform it to cancel the animation, such as SH's. Also the fully played animation of Nair takes too long to recover from in my tastes, hence why I prefer Fair in full jumps/gimps because it's one quick overhead slash in front of you.

I assumed we were talking about being on stage since berserker said air slash and vision, and you definitely dont use vison off stage.

Although, I definitely agree that nair takes too long from off stage, but onstage, fast fall to the ground and no matter what part of the animation you are in, there is no lag. Also, I'm not sure about this but can't you juggle a little with nair? It might not be the easiest thing to pull off but its easier than landing an uair and nair is less punishable than uair.

 

[Starfall11]

I wish Shulk had more true combos. But there are many setups and spacing you can abuse. I'm finding that after the update, it's easier to space with Shulk since you can see the true hitbox of his beam. Before you would hit them with an almost invisible part of the beam.

Fair has extremely long range. Throw it out when you don't think it'll hit and it most likely will. Can anyone confirm if Shulk's Fair is like Ike's in PM? Does it have more knockbock by the hilt/blade than it does on the beam?

I've been spacing better with Nair, but I still think crossups Nairs followed by pivots can be a better option at times. You really need to be in a defensive mindset when playing Shulk. When you get too aggressive, you get punished so hard.

 

[averioste]

Has anyone been successful in using sh Nair + follow jump dair as an early ko? I find it's a bit easier to pull off w/ MArts speed w/ the horizontal distance coverage.

 

[Claxus]

I don't think it can really get early KOs. Shulk's spike is pretty weak even if you could pull that off, but maybe it would be good at higher percents. A reliable way for me has been hitting someone in the air with F-air, then air jumping after them and preparing a D-air. Have you tried your method with footstools?

 

[Starfall11]

I get a lot of random footstools off of people when I jump off stage for a spike. Then they can't make it back. Completely unintentional though.

I still believe the hardest part of Shulk's game is securing a KO. Even in Smash, people can avoid all of his KO moves all day, every day. It becomes frustrating after a while. I find counter to be a high risk/high reward way to secure a KO. But I honestly wish there was some way to combo his throws into an aerial for a KO at higher percents. Bair is probably the most reliable kill method I have as of now. Or DACUS to catch a roll.

 

[Masonomace]

It's a bummer true combos are on the low profile unless it's about N-air or MArt Land Canceling, but Shulk lives in a nice suite in Setup City.

Does it have more knockbock by the hilt/blade than it does on the beam?

I want to say yes, but the difference of knockback seems so little of a difference, spacing with the Beam seems more optimal in my mind-set. The start-up of F-air is what I would mess around with.

Does anyone ever use air slash instead of whatever aerial in aerial fights? It's helped me a lot and also bit me in the *** a lot

Yes & No. Yes because the times they FH or DJ, even the tipper area of the rising slash will connect & that's basically a guarantee 2-hit AS. No because using it against someone like Jiggs or Kirby is risk, especially if they're camping with aerials / B-airs so I avoid challenging them to that extent to use AS. I stick to the ground & U-tilt it's hilarious.

@ Claxus & @ Starfall11 Sorry for butting in, but I've done a few things with using footstool usefully. It's either Jump or Speed ofc because of mobility advantages, but only one time I was able to footstool > buffered Vision to cancel the footjump, & DJ > F-air stage spike them. I try footstooling > buffered AS, but I can't consistently input Turn Around or Special Reversing it how I want, so it affects my succession.

EDIT: Only once was I able to Footstool > Back Slash Leap against my friend, but you have to move / retreat away before BSL. They don't always autopilot towards the stage recovering. . .Back Slashcide is worth it sometimes.

Or just make a suicide read, & footstool > Turn Around BSL to catch them from their back while recovering.

 

[Claxus]

Butting in in a public discussion?
My preferred method of footstooling is using Jump. I run/jump off stage after them, and they think I'm going to go for a F-air or something and dodge. But I just keep going without doing anything, then double jump into them after the dodge and footstool.

And F-air has no hiltbox. The entire animation does the same knockback and 6%.

 

[Monado Boy]

I get a lot of random footstools off of people when I jump off stage for a spike. Then they can't make it back. Completely unintentional though.

I still believe the hardest part of Shulk's game is securing a KO. Even in Smash, people can avoid all of his KO moves all day, every day. It becomes frustrating after a while. I find counter to be a high risk/high reward way to secure a KO. But I honestly wish there was some way to combo his throws into an aerial for a KO at higher percents. Bair is probably the most reliable kill method I have as of now. Or DACUS to catch a roll.

Yeah, I find myself off edge a lot either in Monado Jump/Smash/Speed when securing a kill. Shulk's edge game feels good though, and his side tilt/back throw become decent kill moves at high percent with Smash. His Smashes feel quite read heavy, although I've had good use with D-Smash and F-Smash to prevent people from grabbing the edge. F-Smash is kind of good at stopping poor approach as well, so that's a thing I guess.

 

[Starfall11]

I wanted to use Trela's video as a reference since I currently find this one of the best ways to confirm KOs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=aCY92iqRuck#t=84

A lot of people assume that you're going to jump and F-air or N-air once they're knocked into the air. And in most cases, I do like to do this. But you can feint a follow-up by dashing at them like Trela does, or doing an empty jump into fastfall. Afterwards, they dodge in the air, or attack with an aerial. You land first with the FF, or dodge as Trela did and punish.

Dsmash is probably best for punishing, but Fsmash and USmash work depending on the situation. Dsmash and USmash both work great for roll-happy player since USmash can KO them at pretty early percents.

Unfortunately, it seems like Shulk's punish game is one of the only reliable ways to KO. As Smash 4 doesn't have as many true combos as I'd like. I am maining PM Ike though, so having a strong punish game is never a bad thing.

I really think you have to play defensively with Shulk in order to win at a higher level or secure a KO. Has anyone had luck using him as a pseudo rushdown character? Just curious.

 

[Jade_Rock55]

I kill people at like 70ish with shulks dair which is sorta early considering the recoveries in this game.

 

[erico9001]

Let's see KOs.. BAir, Down Smash, various hits off of the edge, occasional F-Smash, sometimes counters, sometimes DAirs, rarely UAirs, and recently I've been getting some with Up Smash.
If going for the kill when both the opponent and I are at high percentage, I'll go to either Speed or Shield depending on character/situation. For this, it's important to keep in mind that Shield and Speed do not lower your knockback much - requiring only 3-7% more damage on the opponent. Contrarily, if I'm at low damage myself against an opponent at high damage I'll go to Jump or Smash - again, depending on situation.

edit: I'm using this thread in my school essay.

 

[Jade_Rock55]

What's Shulks strongest throw?I usually kill of edgegaurd airs or down smash on rollers.Nothing else really...Up and forward smash ranges are so narrow.

 

[Masonomace]

What's Shulks strongest throw?I usually kill of edgegaurd airs or down smash on rollers.Nothing else really...Up and forward smash ranges are so narrow.

D-throw, or B-throw. Ofc Smash DSmash or HSmash augment their knockback potential as well.

Sometimes a F-throw can be surprising if you instantly grab & throw them

 

[Claxus]

B-throw is his strongest. It can be a very late KO move with Smash. KOs Marth at 130% from the spawn point in Training. If you can't B-throw them off, from the front, D-throw can kill at just about 10% higher. Technically, those numbers are 3% less though, since you can do 3% with pummels (2 hits), if it's that little extra you need to grasp the KO. One of his best kill options though, if you're really having trouble getting that killing hit and they end up at 145%, a grab near edge with Smash will finish it. Sometimes you can just say screw it and get them really high with Buster for a grab KO with Smash.

 

[Starfall11]

Problem with trying to throw near a ledge is that good opponents will try to stay away from the ledge at a high percent. But we have Nairs and Fair to push them back. I think I'll start abusing Dsmash more often. As long as you ensure it'll hit, it's safe. But man, it can easily be punished if someone blocks it. USmash is great with Speed, especially DACUS USmash. Narrow range, but such a quick way to KO.

 

[Berserker.]

You can KO with b-throw at a low % at any part of the stage if HSmash is activated

D-smash is also a good KO move but it should be strictly for punishing or edgeguarding (Yeah, the range is that big)

F-air, B-air, Air slash off stage KO's. With HSmash, F-air KO's off stage at around 80's to 90's.

DACUS might be a game changer but idk


I'll try messing around with Back slash+HSmash. Back slash is meh in general but just for the sake of knowing when it KO's

At the center of FD, back slash with HSmash on the back KO's Bowser at 83%. Probably KO's at earlier percentages near the edge. Front hit back slash still sucks ass. Basically, back slash still kinda sucks atm

 

[Starfall11]

I still haven't used customs really. That sounds awesome in HSmash, but I don't feel customs will ever be allowed in tournaments. But one can only hope! There was a Japanese tournament which allowed Mii Fighters and customs a few weeks back though. I don't foresee it being common though.

I also want to master "Normal Shulk" before tackling the customs. I had no idea a throw could KO under 100% though. That is pretty amazing.

Also, I ran across this video on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTgVNESsAWU

Surprised no one has mentioned it yet. It really helps show some of Shulk's better strings. Some of it was new to me. Can't wait to try it out.

 

[Berserker.]

I still haven't used customs really. That sounds awesome in HSmash, but I don't feel customs will ever be allowed in tournaments. But one can only hope! There was a Japanese tournament which allowed Mii Fighters and customs a few weeks back though. I don't foresee it being common though.

I also want to master "Normal Shulk" before tackling the customs. I had no idea a throw could KO under 100% though. That is pretty amazing.

Also, I ran across this video on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTgVNESsAWU

Surprised no one has mentioned it yet. It really helps show some of Shulk's better strings. Some of it was new to me. Can't wait to try it out.

Customs are being legalized in most tourneys dude. Hoorah

Also

Additionally....

I used hyper Monado Arts and went on training so the positioning was constant (Somewhere near the edge)

U-smash (HSmash) KO's at 72%
D-smash blade (HSmash) KO's at 64%
D-smash tip (HSmash) KO's at 83%... Big difference
F-smash angled up and up close (HSmash) KO's at 65%
F-smash angled up and spaced (HSmash) KO's at 75%
F-smash angled up and SECOND HIT ONLY (Hsmash) KO's at.... 72%....
F-smash forward and up close (HSmash) KO's at 72%
F-smash forward and spaced (HSmash) KO's at 84%
F-smash forward and SECOND HIT ONLY (HSmash) KO's at 80%....

What the hell.... D-smash seems to have the highest knockback. Yeah. That's reasonable. The confusing part is how landing the second hit of f-smash has more knockback than connecting both hits...

I also tried it out with Monado Arts to see if it results to something different. It's the same banana

Anyone can think of a reason? Maybe I'm wrong but I've been doing this a lot atm


Also.....

F-smash second hit tipped (HBuster) deals 18% damage. You can actually get this damage by spacing the first hit. First hit always stays at 8% whether you tip it or not
F-smash's beam up close (HBuster) deals 21% damage. This was taken from the damage chart btw

I also tried tipping F-smash with HSmash activated. KO range seems the same

Air slash is pretty good for edgeguarding and KO'ing. Kills Mario pretty early. Near the edge at around 65%, off the edge at maybe around 60% or whatever. In the middle of the stage... 85%? 95%? idk. Utilt kills though. It's insane. KO's bowser at 94% with HSmash

 

[CupofT]

in a For Glory match vs a Sonic. Was able to Back Slash him middle of Arena Ferox during the charge/start up of his homing attack and scored a KO. If you can time and space a Back Slash during the homing attack it can lead to destruction on Sonic.

All this talk about throws. I need to test/start using D Throw at higher %. So far have just been B Throw and F throw.

 

[erico9001]

Here's my basic summary of the throws. I don't know if there are hidden decimals in the damages, and the damages are with Vanilla Shulk.

Bthrow - 11% damage- good knockback.
Uthrow - 6% - low knockback, so good if followed into UTilt and possibly UAir (MJump may help with this at high percents)
Dthrow - 6% - high knockback, good for killing. At really low percentages (MBuster), it leaves most opponents in range of a follow up with Side tilt or sometimes Dtilt.
Fthrow - 10% - medium knockback, usually better to use Dthrow at high percentages. The higher damage is more useful when damage is your focus. At low percents and MBuster, the move can be followed up like DThrow, but Fthrow has more frames following the hit, making it a ibt less likely. However, if you do pull it off you get the higher damage. Fthrow has a hidden potential in doubles because the beam that hits the opponent away has nice range, letting you hit another nearby opponent for some small damage and knockback. That can take people by surprise.

edit: Dthrow only can be followed into tilts with MBuster. Sorry if I caused any confusion.

 

[NT 3000]

Is anyone else having an issue with thread unfollows? For some reason it keeps unfollowing me from different boards.