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Think Brawl will work well with HDTVs...?

RyokoYaksa

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If you ditched your good old CRTs in favor of HDTVs you're very likely in for a sad disappointment when Brawl comes along. Even 480p video signals (the max output of the Wii) are susceptible to input lag when a HD display is used. There are multiple causes of this infamous image delay one should be aware of:

1. Using interlaced video on a native progressive scan display. By default, the composite A/V wires that come with the Gamecube and Wii (the yellow/white/red ones) stream an interlaced video signal. This is the major culprit in HDTV lag when you play smash on an HD display. In order to properly display video on its screen, a progressive display must deinterlace the composite video feed to have all the lines of pixels filled for each frame (instead of only every other line of pixels as in Standard Definition). This process is a relatively extensive one, so a significant input delay is produced, sometimes to the point of the game's sound being desynched. This can be avoided by activating progressive scan mode on a game, which requires component video cables for your Gamecube/Wii and a game compatible with progressive scan. SSBM is such a game. If you're playing the PAL version, Progressive Scan support was axed in favor of 60 hz support. The same was done to most other progressive scan compatible Gamecube games in the NTSC region. Sorry to those in the PAL regions.

2. Upsizing of the game console's video resolution. Both the Wii and the Gamecube are only capable of outputting 480i (480 lines interlaced) and 480p (480 lines progressive) video signals. Since HDTVs have higher native resolutions (such as 720 lines or 1080 lines) it must upsize the 480 lines to whatever your HDTV's native resolution is so that the whole screen is filled. This process is not as strenuous as deinterlacing a composite video signal and therefore will not cause as much lag as deinterlacing would. Some HDTVs can even do this process quickly enough where lag isn't noticeable, but the vast majority of HDTV models create a perceivable input lag from upsizing, and not even playing in progressive scan will eliminate that. Avoidable by playing on TVs with native resolutions at 480i (or 480p), or being one of the lucky (read: loaded) people with instant upscalers in their HDTVs.

3. HDTV response time. This is the amount of time it takes for the individual pixels in your display to change from fully active (white) to inactive (black) in a controlled test environment. It can also be a grey to grey rating depending on the manufacturer's test mothod. While the rated Response Time of an HDTV is not the cause of "lag" that is being brought up, higher response times do cause the undesired effect of ghosting/motion blurring, which is a bad visual artifact for Smash. Plasmas can also experience motion blur in the same manner, but much less than that of LCDs. Beware if you are looking into an LCD type display. Here is a link explaining the fickleness of the LCD response time rating.
http://www.practical-home-theater-guide.com/lcd-response-time.html

It's rather disturbing that game developers and HDTV retailers don't tell you this stuff themselves.
 

Caael

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This is bad news, since we got a new HD cable for the Wii...

Hopefully Sakurai will realise how many people have HD and try to fix these problems..


Any anyway, every other game on the Wii has worked in HD, with no major problems ( most were fixed by adjusting the screen fitting) so I dont think it will be too major.
 

Sensai

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^^^

Every other Wii game hasn't needed precise timing like Brawl will. Try playing Melee on there...you'll see.

Not really sure if this topic was caused by something or by randomness, but either way: interesting read.
 

The Director

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My parents have an amazing flat screen HD TV...they live in NC and I live in NY, but I will be doing a lot of Brawling on their TV when it comes out!

I don't mind if Brawl can't support HD, but I don't care. If you have a good enough TV, anything looks good on it. Even Melee looks amazing on it, I figure Brawl will look even better. :)
 

RyokoYaksa

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Wario Ware doesnt use precise timing?

Melee works fine with the HD...
Well, like I posted, different HDTVs can handle different video signals to varying degrees. You'd have to test each HDTV model individually to see if it will delay. Using interlaced video on a progressive HDTV however will always cause a high input delay. It's best to simply get an EDTV that natively displays at 480p for Gamecube/Wii gaming.
 
I

i8waffles612

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my upstairs tv is HD... i play the wii in the basement tv, which is not HD
 

Red Exodus

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Good thing my mom bought the 36 inch CRT instead of the 32 HD CRT.

I heard DLP is the best for gaming, the only problem is people see 'rainbows' in it so you have to actually test yourself [in the store] before you buy it, it's not a rule but it's recommended.
 

Sensai

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I have a DLP, and I'll best the first to admit it lags a little.

Not an incredible amount, but it did take me a few seconds to get the hang of L-cancelling Link's Dair again.
 

RyokoYaksa

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I prefer LCoS rear projection myself. An old friend of mine has had one of those since 2003 and it displays 480p and 720p flawlessly, as well as 480i. Of course it was also expensive... and it's a hefty piece of equipment.

When I save up for a personal TV I'll probably settle a 42" plasma EDTV. Getting a TV with native resolution equal to output resolution of your console is key.
 

Kazuya

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Unless the Wii has an add-on in the new feature which boosts it's power + graphics, Brawl = No HD.
 

maelstrom218

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I feel your pain, Ryokosaka. I got a Samsung 26" CRT HDTV, and there's a noticeable amount of lag that definitely screws up my gameplay. It's gotten to the point where I've dug up an old SD CRT out of the closet just so I can practice Smash lag-free.

The problem with the gaming sector pushing HD is that people who enjoy 2D fighters are always going to suffer, since upscaling a 480i signal to HD is always, always, always going to cause some lag. The only solution is to just use an EDTV (which is silly, since I want to play games in HD once I get a Xbox 360 or PS3), or to just play on a plain SDTV.

Or alternatively, you have 2D games designed for HD. Did you hear about the Street Fighter Super Turbo HD remake for Xbox 360 and PS3? Supposedly, everything is being upgraded (sprites and animations) so that its HD compatible. . .meaning you can play in HD and there'd be no lag.
 

Sculelos

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Get a crt HDTV, I have a cheap 30" Sanyo tv that I can play melee just as well on then as my regular tv, but thats because it will nativly do both 480i and 480p, so yes Brawl will absolutely work on my hdtv, although it only does 480i/480p and 1080i, really sucks that it won't do 720i, but doesn't matter to me anyways.
 

Banks

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since its a wii game itll have widescreen support. i wnder how online will go with widescreen ppl vs standard ppl. advantage for widescreeners
 

RyokoYaksa

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Just because it'll be on Wii doesn't mean it will automatically have 16:9 support. Wario Ware: Smooth Moves, for one.

It also be fundamentally bad for it to have widescreen support. Smash isn't a calm, steady fighter like Soul Calibur where additional viewing area is appreciable-but-not-critical. Things in Smash can fly at you at Mach 3 from off the screen... widescreen support would create quite a bit of imbalance between TVs.
 

RyokoYaksa

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I feel your pain, Ryokosaka. I got a Samsung 26" CRT HDTV, and there's a noticeable amount of lag that definitely screws up my gameplay. It's gotten to the point where I've dug up an old SD CRT out of the closet just so I can practice Smash lag-free.
Would you mind pulling up the model # of this CRT HDTV? This is for personal research, and I forgot to ask this earlier. I'm pretty sure that what you have is one of Samsung's DynaFlat CRT HDTVs, specifically the Samsung TX-R2678WH. I pulled up this bit from the FAQs on their website:
---------
What Is The Native Resolution Of Your Dynaflat HDTVs?

Answer
The native resolution of the TX-P series Dynaflat HDTVs is 1080i/480p. 480i input signals are up-converted to 480p. 720p signals are up-converted to 1080i. 1080i signals and 480p signals are displayed without conversion.

The native resolution of all TX-R series Dynaflat HDTVs except the TX-R2765 and TX-R3265 is 1080i/480p/720p. 480i input signals are up-converted to 480p. 1080i and 480p signals are displayed without converversion.

The native resolution of the TX-R2765 and TX-R3265 is 1080i/480p. 480i input signals are up-converted to 480p. 720p signals are up-converted to 1080i. 1080i signals and 480p signals are displayed without conversion.
---------

It sounds like all you really need are component cables for your Gamecube (GFL) or Wii to enable 480p output with SSBM, which in theory will eliminate the lag and make the picture look a lot sharper.
 

Skinhoff

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I don't know, I play melee in 480p on my 37" sharp aquos, and it seems to work perfectly.
 

Giygas

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Talk about an overblown issue. Upscaling lag is becoming less and less of a problem these days, especially in the newer tvs being released. If you're really concerned, take your system to the store to try it out (places like CC or Best Buy let you do this).

Check out this link:

http://gear.ign.com/articles/720/720303p2.html

It has a list of tvs that have reported lag, and tvs that are reported as lag-free. Really, just stay away from Samsung DLPs and you should be fine.

(FYI, I play Melee on my 50" 720p sony wega HDTV with no noticeable lag.)
 

RyokoYaksa

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You have to remember people have cashed in on HDTVs years before upscaling technology has speeded up to reasonable levels. A few years back HDTVs were also really expensive and were made to be at least a 5 year investment, particularly in the case of the venues where tournaments take place. Avoiding this is not as easy as saying "buy a new HDTV that reportedly is lag-free." You can't 100% trust that because a TV is new, that its built-in scalers are higher quality, either. It's a major complication when you intend to supply HDTV's that support a wide range of consoles and games.
 
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More than likely I will be buying a new SDTV soon,But I know that a possibility may overcome and SDTV's won't really be in production,and I may NEED an HDTV,but me being an adolescent and jobless(Until i'm 18,which is later on this year),and generally poor,I don't know if I can afford an HDTV that can support 480i >480p.


Does anyone know of any"More bang for your buck" HDTV's?

I would like one,but I can't don't know if I can invest in one....any tips?
 

Burning Lava

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Get a crt HDTV, I have a cheap 30" Sanyo tv that I can play melee just as well on then as my regular tv, but thats because it will nativly do both 480i and 480p, so yes Brawl will absolutely work on my hdtv, although it only does 480i/480p and 1080i, really sucks that it won't do 720i, but doesn't matter to me anyways.
Hey I've been researching this stuff for months, and that^ TV is one that I'm considering. If you or anyone else could tell me a few things about this exact model, or 16:9 HD (ED) CRTs in general I would greatly appreciate it. I'm wondering...

-When in full screen mode, does the picture appear slightly squished/stretched? I've heard it does.

-Is the picture a decent jump above SD CRT when in 480p?

-Is this a decent set in general, cause I've heard a lot of terrible things about a 34" 16:9 Toshiba CRT.

-Are you sure there's no lag?


Well, anyway I just wish the manufacturers would publish everything there is to know. Anyone know if there's a performance difference between the video processors in the Olevia 332H and the 532H LCD TVs? www.olevia.com has some decent info, but... anyway... this issue will never be solved. Maybe I'll just buy an external video upscanner/scaler. Too bad those are almost impossible to find, and a bit expensive. www.play-asia.com seems to have most of that stuff. Guess I'll just wait until right before Brawl/Galaxy launches.

Sorry about this post, I regret most of it.

EDIT: P.S. That Samsung that RyokoYaksa mentioned sounds promising, I wonder if any other manufacturers tell you that kind of info. It IS a bit too small though... the absolute BARE MINIMUM I could stand is 30" I think. And widescreen is a must for this gamer. (Which ever model doesn't screw up in 4:3 mode anyway.)
 

Uck

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I am very happy that you made this thread so that everyones aware of this and we dont start seeing LCD and Plasmas in tournaments.

I want to add that I tried every solution out there and there is no fix.

Ill list all the equipment I tried so you get the idea and results.

1.Component Cables = This allowed us to activate proggressive scan.Well to keep it short it didnt solve the prolbem it just made it a bit better.I want to say it again It did not solve the prolbem whatsoever.

2.XRB scaler=From Japan worth 200$.This scaler did the same job the cheap component cables did.

3.VGA Boxes = No improvement from component cables.

4.DVDO iscan = This is the only thing I havent tried because it cost $1300.00.They also state that it does not get rid of button latancy lag all the way but reduces it to 1 frame of lag.

No solution.

Playing on a LCD or Plasma or even worse projection tv will make you suck at smash and mess up your timing until you get use to a regular tv again so be warned.
 

Yomon

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So basically if you want to get a flat screen TV and play lag-free Smash Bros. You're screwed? I was thinking about getting one of those HDTV Olevias, but then I heard that LCDs lag and then I decided to wait until I hear some information about getting a good tv for lag free smash. I guess my main problem is pricing on a TV...

Currently I'm using a really old 27" Sony TV (wood trim and all) and I have to put one of those things in the back where you have to stick the little pin thing in the hole and screw it on (I think they're called RFU adapters) because there's no place to put the AV cables. I guess there's no lag, unless I'm so used to the lag I can't tell.
 

Pyr0

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Currently I'm using a really old 27" Sony TV (wood trim and all) and I have to put one of those things in the back where you have to stick the little pin thing in the hole and screw it on (I think they're called RFU adapters) because there's no place to put the AV cables. I guess there's no lag, unless I'm so used to the lag I can't tell.

My case exactly (exept mine is 17") and Melee looks great, I dont get whats all the fuzz about HD, its bearly any different while playing Videogames...

Widescreen however... thats another story.
 

ElChibo

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I still don't understand this whole issue. I know some TVs can have a high amount of HD lag, but that's just because it's a poorly made TV, but everyone here is making it sound like every HD TV. M2K was playing smash over at my dorm last week and hated playing on my roommates TV because of lag. His TV is a native 720p. It can display 480i/p, 720i/p, 1080i. My TV on the other hand is one of those really old HD TVs that try to cheat at it, which is 480p native, which displays 480i/p, 1080i. In theory, I should have no lag at all (and I do play with component cables for cube and Wii), but I can't tell a difference when playing on my TV or my roommates. I just don't see how such a small factor of lag can change that much. People say EDTVs are the best nowadays (which is what I have, just with upscaling HDTV), but how could people not love HDTVs with options like 1080p to make some awesome PS3 and X360 gaming, along with HD cable. My smash still plays fine on TVs and looks awesome. Unfortunately with the way my TV works, since its 480p native not 720p, and since PS3 has no upscaler chip, I can't use the 1080i support on my TV that my Xbox360 can (I don't have a PS3, I'm just rambling on...). Way to usher us into an HD era Sony...
Either way, if the lag is really that bad, then suffer worse TVs, but I still don't see how it can affect that much.
 

Uck

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There has always seem to have been two camps in the HD War.The casual gamers who would gladly sacrifice performance for a nice big HD screen versus those who enjoy precise gameplay that we all have enjoyed since the beggining.

Please if you do not mind the fluctuating button latency lag with a frame sensitive fighter then thats fine.But dont try to downplay the issue and have some poor guy spend more money then he should on an inferior product.

If your a gamer and like the challenge and training that comes with smash then dont buy an HDTV.

If your a casual gamer and dont really train to be competitive and prefer to watch movies on an HDTV then by all means go for it.

We have a nice 60 inch LcD and we watch movies in that.When its time to melee we have a special room set up for that. :)

This is my last warning about the subject buyer beware.
 

nealdt

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Many HDTVs have a "game mode" that sacrifices image up-converting quality in favor of a faster overall process. Check your HDTV (or one you plan on buying) to see if it has such a mode... it can help a lot.
 

Zodiac

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guitar hero 2 has a hd lag calibrater and it works great though, I dont know if there will be one for smash, But, Is there ANY way to fix this lag on an hd tv?

I just read nealdt's post, but does that eliminate lag or just reduce it a lot?
 

Uck

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Theres no way to eliminate the button latency lag only reduce it.You have to remember though that any amount of latency is bad with a frame sensitive game.

For example youll start edgehopping then all of the sudden be fastfalling to your death because you inputed down on the control pad when you thought you should but the latency inputted the signal late.By the time you notice your fastfalling it would be to late because instinctavly assumed that you ledgehopped and went for a fair then you die.


So what you see on the screen is you fastfalling then doing a fair right before you die.When all you were trying to do is edgehop and fair on the ledge.

Heres a link that breaks it down for you and compares different tvs and some temporary fixes.These fixes only reduce the lag not eliminate them. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=558125
 

GaryCXJk

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HD Lag isn't really the issue of the console itself, it's the TV's issue. Seriously, when I try to play Donkey Konga on an LCD screen downstairs, I always get sound lag when using the big sound. Sakurai doesn't need to adjust to every single television. It's just not doable. And even if there are ways to "reduce" the lag, it doesn't get rid of the lag at all.
 

RyokoYaksa

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From all of my time spent playing fighters, DDR, Guitar Hero, and Smash, I've become very sensitive to lag. If it's over one frame, I'm going to notice it quickly when trying to break a record on a song or do extremely precise moves that go down to frame-perfect timing (think Ivy's 5-hit JF in Soul Calibur 2). IMO, if I can notice lag, it detracts from the quality of the gameplay. In the case of extremely precise time button presses it can assuredly mess you up, lag then makes it largely frustrating.

M2K, with many of his combos based on visual reaction and muscle memory, will notice it, too. He just makes a bigger deal out of it than most people. Anyone that has highly tuned hand-eye coordination has capacity to be thrown off by lag.
 

Dacvak

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I bought a 42" LCD HDTV last year in November, and this was my primary concern. Seriously. Lag for Brawl was my highest concern when choosing a TV (higher than max resolution, sound quality, anything. Luckily, it goes up to 1080p anyway and has fantastic sound quality.) Still, when I was choosing a TV, Brawl was the only thing I was thinking about.

So finally when I got my TV and got a Wii, I hooked it up to test out Melee. Sure enough, there was a slight lag. BOY was I pissed. I was very close to returning the TV, despite the good price I paid and all of the incredible qualities of it. But then I decided to wait and try one more thing... I ordered the official Nintendo component cables. I jacked it up to 480p, and tried again.

HOLY CRAP! It seemed like it had completely gotten rid of the lag! I've had a few pros over to test it out, and make sure I wasn't just delusional. Nope, it's PERFECT now. Quite literally no lag, whatsoever.

Anyway, the point of my story is this: If you're going to buy an HDTV with Brawl in mind, purchase a GOOD quality LCD tv. Definitely not Plasma, and DEFINITELY NOT projection. If you already have an HDTV, and you have a bit of lag, go grab the official Wii Component cables from Nintendo. It'll definitely subtract some or all of your lag, like it did with mine. (Granted, I didn't have very much lag at all when I was playing with regular RCA cables. But now there is ZERO lag with component, so it does make a difference.)

Remember, LCD + Component = Win.

~Dac
 

ElChibo

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Yea, of the few times I do notice lag, it's on my plasma TV at my house. This dosn't exactly make it unplayable though, but I still prefer LCD. I told my parents over and over to buy an LCD lol, but hopefully I'll be able to get their Sony (i think 36 inch) CRT 480ip/720ip/1080i TV. That thing plays games good.
 

RyokoYaksa

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A couple frame's lag won't make it unplayable, but you certainly can't take it seriously in that case. Smash is a big tournament game and all.

If anything I'd still want to buy a secondary TV optimized for 480p and have an HD for actual HD applications.
 
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