Things that were "unintended"

[Mailorder]

Okay, so we know wavedashing was unintended for Melee. Is there anything else? Was L-cancelling intentional or unintentional? Peach's float cancels? Yoshi and Ness's double jump cancels? chain grabs and infinite grabs? Did the developers mean for these things to be in the game?

I'm asking because on another forum, someone pointed out that Melee only has depth because of "glitches", or because of stuff that the developers didn't mean to be in the game. But to my knowledge, only wavedashing was unintentional.

Of course, I know that even if the game were only good because of glitches (and exploits), it's just accepted. As long as they don't create extreme unfair advantages, glitches that add to gameplay are just accepted. Kara throwing is accepted in 3s. roll cancelling is accepted in CvS2. A whole bunch of stuff is accepted in the chaos known as MvC2. and of course, Temari's j.B chains and Itachi's d.X are accepted in GNT4.

 

[Zink]

I wouldn't go father than wavedashing. All that other stuff isn't really gliches, just exploits. I dunno about intentional- I don't think it really matters. L-cancelling was certainly intentional. Stuff like float cancelling and DjC were probably discovered during testing and left in, as they aren't too hard to find.

 

[the problem]

I wouldn't go father than wavedashing. All that other stuff isn't really gliches, just exploits. I dunno about intentional- I don't think it really matters. L-cancelling was certainly intentional. Stuff like float cancelling and DjC were probably discovered during testing and left in, as they aren't too hard to find.

^ I agree completely

 

[Razed]

The devs definitely put in L canceling, WD was a glitch, and they MUST have discovered the rest during testing. And if they left it in, it means it was intentional. Thus, WD is the only glitch, except for maybe SWD

 

[majoras.]

i say they were intentional so this game could be played competitive,
they saw in the past the ssb64 and saw there were combos from 0 to death (not forgeting the great isai) and said: "lets add DI"
and so with advanced techniques. its like in mario kart games, it is made simple so everybody can play it, but it has advanced stuff like the snakers and all that stuff, they saw ssb64 implemented on tourneys and wanted to do this game a little more competitive



opinion

 

[Gkryptonite]

I don't think wavedashing or L-canceling was a glitch. The game testers just didn't expect it to be exploited so heavily.

 

[Timotee]

DjC were definitely intended, seeing as they were in SSB64. That's what Ness' super power was, combined with the Z-cancelling that was a glitch. L-cancelling was a modification of that, so it isn't a glitch. WD is an unintended result of the physics, and SWD is a glitch. Chain-grabbing is an unintended result of the physics, the infinite grab is a glitch, that's why they worked to fix them for PAL. SH and FF are not glitches, because I'm pretty sure the coding would have to be very strange for unintentional "if you hold the jump button for less than x frames" to occur.

And Gkryptonite, it doesn't matter what the testers expected, it's what the producer decides.

*May have reason to know that testers don't get words in edgewise*

 

[Cy Yunga]

Wait, what's DjC?

 

[Mic_128]

Double Jump Canceling.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

DjC were definitely intended, seeing as they were in SSB64. That's what Ness' super power was, combined with the Z-cancelling that was a glitch. L-cancelling was a modification of that, so it isn't a glitch. WD is a glitch, and SWD is way more a glitch. Chain-grabbing and the infinite grab are glitches, that's why they worked to fix them for PAL. SH and FF are not glitches, because I'm pretty sure the coding would have to be very strange for unintentional "if you hold the jump button for less than x frames" to occur.

And Gkryptonite, it doesn't matter what the testers expected, it's what the producer decides.

*May have reason to know that testers don't get words in edgewise*

lol. WD is not a glitch. Chain-grabbing is not a glitch (even the CPU Ice Climbers attempt desynch grab combos).

SWD is a glitch. The infinite grab might be a glitch. A glitch is a defect, error, malfunction, or a technical problem. The "unintended" factor of those moves is correct, they weren't intended to be exploited in the way that they are.

Plenty of moves in this game are probably used differently than they were intended. That's why the metagame for many different characters continues to expand.

 

[Seanson]

I wish everyone that said wavedashing was a glitch would back it up. I think air dodging into the ground was definately intended, but wavedashing I think was unintended (certainly not a glitch though)

At one point, when they implemented air dodging, they had to tell it what to do if you hit the ground while doing it. And they chose the ground waiting animation.

 

[Timotee]

I edited my post, but I'll clarify: I just use glitch to mean anything unintended. I don't mean it's less because it's a glitch rather and just unintended. I just made the assumption that it would be understood, which was bad of me.

I'm of the tomato, tomato of this, but if you feel that one word is better than the other, ok.

 

[XZalla]

I edited my post, but I'll clarify: I just use glitch to mean anything unintended..

It's okay. But next time, do some research before just blurting out statements like that. ;/

 

[Timotee]

I'm not sure whether you meant I needed more research on word choice or what is/isn't a glitch, but I am extremely bored and stuck at work, so I'm going to respond to both defending my choice:

According to the Merriam-Webster dictionary, glitch is a synonym for bug in the programming sense. Therefore, if we replace glitch with bug, I claimed things such as WD were bugs. With me so far?

Working off this, I have happened to have discussed the testing for Melee with persons that were on the project, and there is a bug in the log that covered sliding on the ground after air-dodging, and another about grabbing repeatedly. I could of course be full of it, but you could ask the Coloradoites what my job was for the past couple years.

Conclusion: My new job is soul-breakingly boring.

Edit: Ok, just to ensure we're all on the same page...everyone is aware I'm not trying to claim glitches are illegal, right? It's just the word I used. I fully support using them, but I think it's common knowledge that WD was not intentional. Anything that was a bug, I call a glitch. That doesn't mean I hate it, it merely means I am using a word as it is defined.

 

[greenblob]

You're supposed to slide across the ground when you land with horizontal momentum from helpless mode. You're also supposed to be able to air-dodge as soon as you leave the ground. Wavedashing just combines these two features. It may not have been intentional, but it's certainly not "illegal" or "glitchy" in any sense. Besides, plenty of things were "unintentional" such as ledge-canceling/hogging/jumping and bomb-jump recoveries.

Also, just because it was in SSB doesn't mean it's intentional. Rising pounds, pivoting, and jump-canceling were in SSB, and they seem fairly unintentional.

Besides, you can't just say that everything the programmers didn't think of is unintentional and therefore illegal. That'd mean that any combo or trick that the programmers didn't think of is illegal. In fact, I'd say that the programmers at least indirectly intended that the game be played creatively and the players come up with new and interesting tactics with which to play.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Grabbing repeatingly is not a glitch, nor is it a bug. It is an exploit, a simple manipulation of the physics engine. Throwing down for example is not glitchy at all. Grabbing a person low to the ground is also not glitchy. Therefor the ability to grab a person after a throw if they are still near the ground is not a glitch. Your arguement about PAL fails because there are still chain grabs in PAL, changing the trajectory (IE Knockback) of an attack does not mean that it was origanally a glitch.

There is a big differance between glitch and exploit. Exploit is more a manipulation of the physics engine that was most likely not origanaly intented (wavedashing would fall into this catagory). Glitches are bugs and are actually very, very rare, the result of a glitch is usually the game engire freezing or a componant of it freezing (these are fatal glitches, smaller variations of a glitch is could be as simple as a skipped frame). The Ice Climber Freeze Glitch is a glitch. Falling through the middle of the stage is a glitch (this can happen on ANY stage). Super Wavedashing is NOT a glitch, and could barely be considered an exploit. It's more along the lines of the code existed for it to take place but no one knew about it. A borderline glitch would be phantom hits, but these are very curious because they have an algorithym (half of normal damage, no knockback). One could argue that it is a glitch only because we do not fully understand how a phantom hit occurs as of yet. The black hole glitch is not a glitch, its simply manipulating several objects within the game to cause an overload. You could possibly argue that the infinite super scope is a glitch though.

 

[Timotee]

Since at this point we're just arguing semantics, would you prefer I go back and just replace the word glitch with bug? Because that's all I mean. WDing was bugged, and it's just part of the physics, so they can't fix it by testing time, but it is a bug. Whether or not it becomes a feature they balance in next game is unknown. Phantom hits, on the other hand, the developer no bugged, so it can be assumed that it is intended in the code.

To summarize: If you read my posts, mentally replace the word glitch with bug.

 

[Baelen]

Besides, you can't just say that everything the programmers didn't think of is unintentional and therefore illegal. That'd mean that any combo or trick that the programmers didn't think of is illegal. .

Millions of players, a few programmers. I think it's borderline impossible for a game to be released without a single potential exploit or "glitch", so i'm gonna go with greenblob on this one

 

[ToyzSoldier]

Most everything exploited today was probably never meant to be used in the way it is now, by the programmers. making SSBM the greatest "accidentally" best game in the history of video games.

 

[mood4food77]

some things thought as glitches are probably not, like the YYG, i think it was intentional because if you look at it, you have to perform something crazy for it to happen, and with AR, you can see the hitbox when it's deployed, so it can't be a glitch, right, it just acts like one, same with samus' SWD, it's a certain button combination that might make it look glitchy, they could be kind of like easter eggs, like samus' extended grapple

i don't know the deal with roy zones and phantom hits though, they're probably glitches as with a couple of other things

wavedashing is an impliment of physics, they know it was in there, they just never thought it would be abused, like l'cancelling, in the original it was called z'cancelling, it wasn't a glitch, they thought it wouldn't get abused, the infinite grab i'm pretty sure was overlooked, DJC was intentional, just they way the characters respond is different (ness stays in place pretty much, yoshi semi-fastfalls, peach goes down at normal speed, and mewtwo goes up a little bit)

and one other thing, SSBM is nowhere near the best game ever...zelda: OoT has that one...melee didn't even get 90% (but it's still top 200)

 

[greenblob]

Most everything exploited today was probably never meant to be used in the way it is now, by the programmers. making SSBM the greatest "accidentally" best game in the history of video games.

I'm pretty sure that the programmers at least indirectly predicted that the players would find new and innovative ways to play the game, exploiting game mechanics and such. And I have evidence for my statement this time! In SSB, Z-canceling was a glitch. It was made into an actual game mechanic in SSBM. In SSB, ledge-hopping was an exploit. SSBM has two versions of ledge-hopping, one of which is the same as SSB, and another one which was implemented by the programmers (jumping without pulling away).

 

[Baelen]

Well i'm sure that brawl will be loaded with mechanics ready to be exploited, and...maybe...a glitch or two. By glitch, I mean something that, due to an unforseen combination of coding, causes the game to run differently than intended.

If it's too hard to decide if something is a glitch or an exploit, i'd probably be pretty pissed if someone used it against me. I dont really care what wavedashing is, but I dont use it either way.

Oh, and ssbm is not the greatest game ever, IMO. Great game, but i would've went with OoT or MAYBE the first perfect dark

 

[Sadnap]

Fox's 'l33tness' is a glitch IMO.

 

[KevinM]

The wavedash is just an exploitation of the physics, if the developers saw it coming then good for them. They must have known that if the game was as competitive as SSB64 then the metagame was going to expand and continue to be flexable. Thats why its a good game, who cares otherwise about it all.

 

[goateeguy]

Honestly, i couldn't care less whether or not stuff was intended. If it works, use it. If it works, but destroys your Gcube (or Wii, in my case) then by all means, don't use it!!!!!!

 

[Seanson]

Honestly, i couldn't care less whether or not stuff was intended. If it works, use it. If it works, but destroys your Gcube (or Wii, in my case) then by all means, don't use it!!!!!!

destroy gamecube? are you saying some moves will cause physical damage to your console?

 

[pdk]

Okay, so we know wavedashing was unintended for Melee. Is there anything else? Was L-cancelling intentional or unintentional? Peach's float cancels? Yoshi and Ness's double jump cancels? chain grabs and infinite grabs? Did the developers mean for these things to be in the game?

they have to explicitly add code that makes these things possible (e.g. the effect of LCing, the fact that air attacks stop the vertical acceleration of your double jump), connect the dots

 

[greenblob]

Hey wait, if wavedashing is an "exploit," wouldn't the SHFFL be an exploit too? Think about it:

Wavedash
Air dodge was intended. It was intended that you slide when you land with momentum from a helpless position. It was intended that you are able to air dodge as soon as you leave the ground. Wavedash exploits these things to allow the player to move via sliding short distances.

SHFFL
It was intended that you can short hop, fast fall, and l cancel. The SHFFL exploits these things to allow the player to use quick, ground-level aerials.

 

[goateeguy]

destroy gamecube? are you saying some moves will cause physical damage to your console?

rofl! Im trying my pathetic best to crack a joke here, im not serious. if there was, i guarantee u id tell u about it.

 

[tarheeljks]

wd is in the debug code. anyway, why does it matter the designers left it in the game whether or not it was deliberately implemented in the first place. if it were unfair, mlg would make it illegal (i.e. grenade jumping in halo 2)

 

[zuloon]

I wouldn't go father than wavedashing. All that other stuff isn't really gliches, just exploits. I dunno about intentional- I don't think it really matters. L-cancelling was certainly intentional. Stuff like float cancelling and DjC were probably discovered during testing and left in, as they aren't too hard to find.

True that, brotha

 

[IceCleaners]

peach but isnt supposed to be so big, that move is awful, and game and matchs meat isnt supposed to be so devastating.

 

[greenblob]

Well, if you think about it, every little thing is an exploit.
SHFFL is an exploit of game mechanics to make it possible to do quick, aerial attacks at ground level. Aerials were meant to be, you know, aerials.
Edgehogging is an exploit of the fact that only one person can hold a ledge at any given moment and that grabbing the ledge gives the grabber invincibility frames.
Certain characters were meant to be slow, and yet because slow doesn't work in competitive play, all of the slower characters play much more quickly than they were meant to be. How? People who play these characters use only fast attacks and ignore the slow ones, which would be a gameplay mechanic. Ganon is a great example of this.

 

[halfDemon]

Edgehogging is an exploit of the fact that only one person can hold a ledge at any given moment and that grabbing the ledge gives the grabber invincibility frames.

Just to clarify: edgehogging is by no means an exploitation of the game or its physics; edgehogging is actually a technique defined by the game. You can check your "stats" after a match, and it'll be there.

 

[mario-man]

Just to clarify: edgehogging is by no means an exploitation of the game or its physics; edgehogging is actually a technique defined by the game. You can check your "stats" after a match, and it'll be there.

This is the complete truth!!! If, during the match, you prevent someone from grabbing an edge by grabbing it yourself before they have a chance to (aka edgehog), you will actually be awarded something like 2500 points.

 

[greenblob]

Well, then taking advantage of the invincibility frames from grabbing/getting up from a ledge to prevent people from attacking you as they recover would be an exploit. And there are numerous other "exploits" such as edge-hopping and edge-canceled attacks.

 

[Uck]

You said that your friend stated that smash only has depth because of glitches and that is not the case those glitches only add to the expieriance.Theres so much open endeness to this game that other fighting games seem constricting.I could go on but this thread doesnt warrant such a response.I on the otherhand would like you to give it some thought and you can come to the same conclusion.