Legend of Zelda Things i would love to see in the zelda franchise

[Spire]

You people are bumming me out. Seriously, do we HAVE to call Zelda generic? I'd rather live my life happily unaware of how bland my favorite game is...

We don't have to, but we are. It's not good to live in the dark. Accept the truths behind Zelda and you can learn to appreciate the good things about it even more.

 

[Phantom7]

We don't have to, but we are. It's not good to live in the dark. Accept the truths behind Zelda and you can learn to appreciate the good things about it even more.

This is true, except for the fact that OoT's story is not that generic. If it's so generic, list some examples of books/movies similar to it -- and I don't mean a story that includes one or two similar elements, but is very similar.

 

[Spire]

This is true, except for the fact that OoT's story is not that generic. If it's so generic, list some examples of books/movies similar to it -- and I don't mean a story that includes one or two similar elements, but is very similar.

The Lord of the Rings. The Ring represents the Triforce, and while the Triforce is broken into three pieces to be carried by Link, Zelda, and Ganon, The One Ring - rather than being broken - is carried at separate times by evil and good. It is the doing and undoing of the world. I'll list various other similarities:

• The Sages are based on their color-related elements and were initially known simply as the "Seven Wise Men", who were then retconned in OoT as the Seven Sages of different racial and gender backgrounds. In LotR, the so called "Wizards" (or Istari) though few, were based on colors also. Gandalf the Grey, Saruman the White, Aiwendil the Brown, and Alatar and Pallando the blue are the only known ones.
• Mt. Doom = Death Mountain (without a doubt, and given that it was first seen as something evil since Ganon took refuge there in the first Zelda, it can be assumed that Nintendo intended it to be such a grim place)
• Tree Beard = Great Deku Tree; Fangorn Forest = Lost Woods: both are the old, wise, bearded trees that are the guardians of their forests. The alliance between the Ents and Merri and Pippin in The Two Towers could be an inspiration for the Kokiri's presence as the inhabitants of the Great Deku Tree's forest in OoT (aside from Peter Pan of course).
• Ganon's army (Moblins, etc) in the ALttP text says that they were once people (mainly Hylians) who fell corrupt by greed and as such, were transformed into their bestial forms, just as the Orcs in LotR were corrupted Elves.

I could easily go on.

 

[zaneebaslave]

Well, in Zelda's defense, you can make the same argument about almost every kind of story, especially fantasy. It is said that the best accepted story derives of generic archetypes and cliches. Look at Dragon Age, our newest video game representation of the great generic fantasy world. It is filled with ogres, goblins, elves, mages, dwarves, and dragons. It brings nothing new to the table. It is just generic fantasy, built to be enjoyed as fantasy. I guarantee that if you look through the fantasy section at your local Barnes and Noble, you will find that the stories are all very much the same; Good vs. Evil, with monsters!

But lets look at Zelda now. Zelda, though keeping all the generally accepted cliches and generic architypes, has expanded upon their ideas and turned them into their own creations.

For example: If you were to look at pictures of the "Moblin" and a normal generic fantasy "goblin." When you think of a "goblin", you probably think of a little green monster, with fangs and ripped clothing and ugly armor... Like this drawing.

But now look at this picture:

Is that a Goblin? Hell no, thats a Moblin! I doubt you even make a comparison between the two. A moblin seems like something completely different. Though technically they are exactly the same things: a creature created by evil to be the minions of a dark witch or wizard. It works with everything. I doubt any of you thought a "Gibdo" was a basically just a mummy. Or a poe was basically just a ghost.

Even Kotake and Koume (bless them for their awesomeness), werent "just" witches. They rode around on brooms, had green skin, and big warty noses. But something about them was set off from the norm; from the generic. They werent like the Wicked Witch of the West. They were mother ****ing Kotake and Koume!


So technically, Zelda has revolutionized the fantasy world. Not by breaking away from the ordinary, but breaking away from the ordinary. By not changing anything at all, but also changing everything all at once. You can tell us that Zelda is basically just an exact copy of Lord of the Rings, or the Black Cauldron, or even bloody Repunzle: because it is. But it also is it's own creation. Somehow or another, it is completely different.

 

[Spire]

I wasn't dogging on Zelda lore, I think it's fantastic. The world does not necessarily look typical fantasy (really, what other fantasy world is filled with a bunch of four-tentacled land octopi that shoot rocks at you?), but Phantom7 asked us to find a story that Zelda is very close to. LotR was the first thing that came to mind because admittedly, they are very similar.

I've always been a strong supporter of Moblins for being the replacement to Goblins/Orcs. They're big bulldog/pig creatures and I absolutely love them along with pretty much every creature in the Zeldaverse. Where Zelda lacks in story, it makes up for in lore and world design.

 

[Luigitoilet]

Well, in Zelda's defense, you can make the same argument about almost every kind of story, especially fantasy. It is said that the best accepted story derives of generic archetypes and cliches. Look at Dragon Age, our newest video game representation of the great generic fantasy world. It is filled with ogres, goblins, elves, mages, dwarves, and dragons. It brings nothing new to the table. It is just generic fantasy, built to be enjoyed as fantasy. I guarantee that if you look through the fantasy section at your local Barnes and Noble, you will find that the stories are all very much the same; Good vs. Evil, with monsters!

But lets look at Zelda now. Zelda, though keeping all the generally accepted cliches and generic architypes, has expanded upon their ideas and turned them into their own creations.

For example: If you were to look at pictures of the "Moblin" and a normal generic fantasy "goblin." When you think of a "goblin", you probably think of a little green monster, with fangs and ripped clothing and ugly armor... Like this drawing.

But now look at this picture:

Is that a Goblin? Hell no, thats a Moblin! I doubt you even make a comparison between the two. A moblin seems like something completely different. Though technically they are exactly the same things: a creature created by evil to be the minions of a dark witch or wizard. It works with everything. I doubt any of you thought a "Gibdo" was a basically just a mummy. Or a poe was basically just a ghost.

Even Kotake and Koume (bless them for their awesomeness), werent "just" witches. They rode around on brooms, had green skin, and big warty noses. But something about them was set off from the norm; from the generic. They werent like the Wicked Witch of the West. They were mother ****ing Kotake and Koume!


So technically, Zelda has revolutionized the fantasy world. Not by breaking away from the ordinary, but breaking away from the ordinary. By not changing anything at all, but also changing everything all at once. You can tell us that Zelda is basically just an exact copy of Lord of the Rings, or the Black Cauldron, or even bloody Repunzle: because it is. But it also is it's own creation. Somehow or another, it is completely different.

These are design and aesthetic aspects, not storytelling aspects.

 

[zaneebaslave]

Well you cant honestly argue Zelda's storytelling without looking into the aesthetic. Because, like SpireV and Skyler has been saying, it is a very generic story. Thats not necessarily a bad thing, though, and the aesthetic well makes up for it in the long run.

 

[Luigitoilet]

Oh yeah. I was arguing the same thing. I thought we were talking strictly storytelling terms. I agree then carry on

 

[Phantom7]

These are design and aesthetic aspects, not storytelling aspects.

You can't say this in Spire's defense, though, because he was comparing LoTR to Zelda in geography, monsters, and characters, and not so much story. You can point out a hero, villain, sacred item, beast, and forest in any epic story.

Zelda includes many aspects that make it similar to other fantasies, but story-wise, it is pretty unique. It differs in ways that are difficult to explain. One difference is the fact that the adventure is not linear. Link travels all around Hyrule, instead of heading for one destination. Also, the evil wins before Link returns to overcome it, instead of one journey to defeat evil once at the very end, like in most fantasies.

 

[Spire]

You can't say this in Spire's defense, though, because he was comparing LoTR to Zelda in geography, monsters, and characters, and not so much story. You can point out a hero, villain, sacred item, beast, and forest in any epic story.

Zelda includes many aspects that make it similar to other fantasies, but story-wise, it is pretty unique. It differs in ways that are difficult to explain. One difference is the fact that the adventure is not linear. Link travels all around Hyrule, instead of heading for one destination. Also, the evil wins before Link returns to overcome it, instead of one journey to defeat evil once at the very end, like in most fantasies.

Well the points I made actually tie into the story incredibly, especially in relation to the original Legend of Zelda.

Link/Frodo are young outsiders to the land that they're adventuring in. Both must traverse across the country to Death Mountain/Mt. Doom to undo the evil of Ganon/Sauron by claiming/destroying the Triforce of Wisdom/One Ring. Both are golden artifacts that can grant the user unmatched power. I really don't want to have to explain more because it's quite apparent how similar they are.

And every Zelda game following the first is an abstraction/retelling of the first story -- even Majora's Mask. It's the tale of the hero rising to claim the sword and the artifact(s) to slay evil and save the land/princess. It's - like Skyler said - high fantasy and has been told a million times in a million ways. It's all the same story.

Though the Zelda-specific lore is very interesting to me, which is really the only reason why I continue celebrating the series.

Oh, and you really can't argue the linearity point because that's completely gameplay-relative. Would Tolkien have written a "create your own adventure" book? Hell no. He wanted to tell a good story. Zelda takes that story and dilutes it enough for a video game to take place.

 

[Phantom7]

Oh, and you really can't argue the linearity point because that's completely gameplay-relative. Would Tolkien have written a "create your own adventure" book? Hell no. He wanted to tell a good story. Zelda takes that story and dilutes it enough for a video game to take place.

I thought OoT told a great story, nevertheless. Did you not like OoT's storyline?

 

[Spire]

I thought OoT told a great story, nevertheless. Did you not like OoT's storyline?

I loved it because it was a Nintendo 64 game. The story wasn't too simple, wasn't too complex. It was like baby bear's bed: juuuust riiight for its platform.

But, it wasn't a totally unique story. Unique world for the most part, just not storywise.

 

[Phantom7]

I loved it because it was a Nintendo 64 game. The story wasn't too simple, wasn't too complex. It was like baby bear's bed: juuuust riiight for its platform.

But, it wasn't a totally unique story. Unique world for the most part, just not storywise.

Oh... Now, it sounds like you're describing it a lot differently. Before, you made it sound like the story was nothing special and an average fantasy.

 

[Untrust Us]

edit: nevermind

 

[Spire]

Oh... Now, it sounds like you're describing it a lot differently. Before, you made it sound like the story was nothing special and an average fantasy.

Well I don't hate it, never did. You tried to convince us that it's highly unique and such and I wanted to prove otherwise. I still appreciate the story just as I appreciate the story of Star Wars despite it having been told a million times in history and mythology.

 

[Phantom7]

Well I don't hate it, never did. You tried to convince us that it's highly unique and such and I wanted to prove otherwise. I still appreciate the story just as I appreciate the story of Star Wars despite it having been told a million times in history and mythology.

It is unique, though, maybe not too highly unique, but unique. It's not really the characters or elements of the story that make it unique, but the events that occur and how they weave together so nicely.

 

[AngryMoblyn1881]

There are many old video games that did simelar things to the first Loz. Such as hide lide I think it was called. these where both NES games but surprisingly I am pretty sure hidlide came first. LIke many others and they where a total failure! But for some reason miyamoto and the gang did it right. Even though the dungeons and puzzles where verymuch alike. So I dont get why they didnt become succesfull. But on the other hand I have a rough idea, zelda has many qualitys that are neatly identical to these other dungeon puzzle games. But one of the main secret weapons zelda had was the music. The music to me played a big role in that first game and all the others to come.

P.S how do you make banners??

 

[Luigitoilet]

Hydlide's not a great example since it is god awful. The Ultima series predates LoZ and did some very similar things. I don't remember a game with such a detailed overworld and focus on exploration before LoZ though.

edit: and of course, LoZ was way more polished as well

 

[AngryMoblyn1881]

Another thing (now that I have been playing MM again) is a sequil to the Majoras mask game. Something like, link goes back for what ever reason necessery. Or even stumbles upon it in the adult timeline. Thus making it a game very much based on the perspective of Spires apocalyptic terminia thred.

 

[Spire]

Another thing (now that I have been playing MM again) is a sequil to the Majoras mask game. Something like, link goes back for what ever reason necessery. Or even stumbles upon it in the adult timeline. Thus making it a game very much based on the perspective of Spires apocalyptic terminia thred.

Heh, this is like the dream come true to the majority of us here. Let's hope that the Zelda Wii rumors are true and that it will be a sequel. That would... oh man.

It would just blow every other game in the franchise out of the water.

 

[SkylerOcon]

Assuming, of course, that they followed the design document laid out in the 2ch leak. That sounded like one amazing game, and making it the third story in the Hero of Time arc can only make it better.

 

[Luigitoilet]

I agree. That is the one rumor I really hope is true.

 

[Ganonsburg]

Spire, I think that by comparing Zelda to LotR, you just made both super epic.

 

[Krypt222]

An actual sequel WOULD make Zelda uber 1337.