Things I Like - The Mafia Game - Game Over

[giraffelasergun]

Vote Count 1.8

Fontisian (2): Wam, Dark Horse
Chaco (2): Kary, LaserGuy
FrozenFlame (2):, BoomFrog, Sabrar
Wam (2): FrozenFlame, Malakandra
Kary (1): Synchronicity
Somitomi(1): Chaco
Laserguy(1): Fontisian

Not Voting (2): Pythag, Somitomi

With 13 Alive, it takes 7 to reach majority.
Day Ends at 5 PM CST on Friday the 11th, approximately 22 hrs from this post! Live Countdown to EOD1

 

[Chaco]

I’m gonna try to do a few more tonight or in the morning, but I’m gonna try and do Laser and Kary. Then maybe Synchronicity. I may do Sync tonight though cause it’ll be easier due to lesser posts. Larger amount of content takes forever on a phone.

 

[Chaco]

Frozen
Sabrar
Fonti
DH
Mala
Pythag-Synchronicity-Boom-Laser
Wam
Kary
Somitomi

Townleans
Unsorted due to waiting to see more progression
Scumlean to primary yeet target

Frozen I’ve expressed why is town.

DH v Gorf felt TvT to me and DH and Fonti both have continued to give me town vibes

I’m not familiar enough with Pythag to completely sort him yet but not gotten particular vibes either way yet.

Waiting to analyze Synch closer, likes some content here though other was far to hard to follow their heads.

I need to see more Boom to tell here.

Laser could either to townlean for me or scumlwan depending on his substantiation and reads and what progresses when Fonti v Laser happens.

Still trying to figure out Wam, but for now the parroting and read mirroring has landed him here.

Kary has felt opportunistic to me at times and well spoken at others. Considering I’ve been on the receiving end of it, I’m not sure if I’m biased here or not. But the push didn’t feel right in some ways. I need to look closer here at all the other content.

Somitomi has still yet to produce anything and responds to minimal amounts of things much like how he did in Kary’s game. Barely gives you anything to work on, and his beginning of game commentary seemed to be trying to gather town points.

 

[Chaco]

Forgot to add Sabrar. But I’ve gotten numerous town pings off of them from the content they’ve put forward. Frozen v Sabrar felt TvT to me as well.

 

[Pythag]

Yeah as someone with a similar meta at one point I have used the same defence as scum several times. My vote is now serious.

I think this actually puts Wam in the null category, maybe even townie.
with how wam has been playing I just don't see this info being voluntarily given if he's scum.
I'm open to being wrong.

Where’s the lines between null reads and scum/town reads?

This was an early question asked by DH towards Gorfs reads.
I like it because it seems genuine unknowing of how many mafia there are.
yes it could be faked, but combine that with this other quote I like :

#HBC | FrozeηFlame what makes Chaco's equality vote scummier than pythag's agreement about tied wagons? You seemed more confused about pythag's reasoning vs scumreading him for it

I just really like this question. it's seeking consistency in reasoning and action. DH gets a big bump in my mind for this.

I am baffled that noone has apparently cared to review LaserGuy's complete case. With the same evaluation criteria that he used for Chaco's content in this game he could have produced the following reads for the second game he quoted:


Fluff
Fluff
Fluff
Fluff
Fluff
Fluff

None of these advance the game state or express reads. The only reason for labelling them as 'focusing on game mechanics' and finding them townie because of that is that it can fit into LG's narrative. As expressed multiple times scum loves to talk about game mechanics because it's a safe topic to generate content in.

PS: I hate hate hate that this forum does not allow nested quotes.

I like this post,
I also like that it least looks like Sab is sticking his neck out for really no good reason.
this is Sab responding to LG's case, showing flaws in LG's reasoning.
Not sure why it didn't come with a vote as well though.

Am i the only one that thinks this doesn't look original?
It just kinda feels like a collective of views from the thread with a few personal touches sprinkled in. For example mine has been said by alot of people who have played with me before, but Wam hasn't, so idk why he takes that small thing as such a big town sign.

He also lumps Pythag in with Dark Horse, and I know I made a similar argument about Rajam when I was scum that lumping people as alike that don't seem super alike to me is just a way to cop out of a read, but I genuinely agree with that view. I don't see Dark Horse in Pythag as similar at all.

Why are Pythag and Dark Horse similar to you Wam?

I don't like this post.
This post strikes me as feigning naive and I think it's easy potshots. I've been null/nullscum on many reads. DH has been relatively controversial, and WAM is almost universally seen as scummy.
coupled with the meme-posts (which have been funny), it gives me a nullscum view of mala.

if mala's post is what pushed you to do this, this may be the worst vote I've ever seen you cast

pretty sure there isn't any reality where fonti sticks his neck out for me as scum, pretty sure he'd be salivating over the idea of getting me mislynched D1 so he can stunt on me as both alignments after midnight ops, so getting a good town read there

If you (frozenflame), me and Chaco are all town, why would scum!Sabrar need to get a firmer grip on the game? Iirc, in sumting, he was content to let town bury itself.

I added the bolded
This grouping...this question...this is one the that I'm stuck on.

I think a lot comes down to how I read chaco now.
but that's hard because...


These two quotes are weird to me.

if you flip town I think Wam is an obvious next step because he's scummy individually and seemed happy to hop on. I don't think Laser or Frozen are scum driving your elimination and I am more suspicious of people on the sidelines. Without actually seeing the votes on you I can't answer any better than that.

according to Kary, Chaco is scummy, and so is Wam...but...this is towards Sab:

Do you have any reads? Or are you just biding your time to vote Wam at end of Day?

Why don't you spell out the similarities that you think are scummy? Because so far you've said "he's forgotten how to play town" which means nothing, and then echoed the problems I had in 227 in your 266.

Why are you trying to cast shade on someone voting for someone who is independently scummy?
Cause you think Sab's scummy?

If that's the case, in the FF, Fonti, Sab trio, are there two scum?

The team is Chaco, Sab, FF +/- Wam?
Sab is trying to bus FF based off of an argument that you made?
Or is Sab just going to bus Wam because town already finds him scummy?
Or is FF actually not scummy after all?

I read parts of it and went 'okay thats kinda funny and i can see what they mean'
and other parts and went 'i have no ****ing idea who is the fish in this metaphor'.

I mean, yes, it is fun and different and refreshing in a ways but letting Xivii have fun is not generally pro-town.

This is an odd take. You've seen xivii have fun before and not responded to him in this way.
Also, Synchronicity has shown they aren't going to make every post that cryptic.
Maybe synchronicity having fun isn't good if you're mafia and synchronicity is town.

I got some more thinkin' to do.
I need to decide about Chaco and FF.

 

[Malakandra]

coupled with the meme-posts (which have been funny), it gives me a nullscum view of mala.

Crap I'm busted. They've found out I only meme as scum.

 

[Malakandra]

Unvote

Will jump on something eventually. Liked Wam's response to my sheeping question.

 

[Malakandra]

Unwilling to Yeet:
Dark Horse
Pythag

Sabrar
Boomfrog

Maybe willing to Yeet:
Fonti
Kary
Laserguy
Synchronicity

Somitomi
Wam

Down to Yeet:
FF/Chaco

Dropped Chaco down because the progression to make FF top town is wak af to me and he hasn't been obv town to me like he said he would be and its almost end of day.

 

[Malakandra]

Nah screw it I'm tunnelin.

Vote Frozen Flame

 

[Malakandra]

The FF flip was influencing my Chaco read too much since I don't see a reason for him to do all this for FF just to pocket him? Doesn't make sense.

 

[Pythag]

The FF flip was influencing my Chaco read too much since I don't see a reason for him to do all this for FF just to pocket him? Doesn't make sense.

I was actually about to just ask about that

 

[Chaco]

FF has direct content to me which is why I have him highest right now because of how he’s treated my slot which has been completely and totally different than how he has the last two games as scum. So why is Frozen scummy to you Mala? What makes him scum here or what do you see paralleled to the other games that gives you that impression?

 

[Chaco]

Grain of salt I’ve yet to be right about FFs alignment in any game this far, but he feels different to me here in more ways than just how he’s coming at me. There’s not a TMI feel to his reads that’s more easily seen in his previous two games. He’s actually more active here and putting himself in spotlight more, where as he didn’t either two games previously. I just don’t see him being scum here at all. There’s to many things I see where he’s actually trying to progress reads and see him looking into stuff.

 

[Malakandra]

FF has direct content to me which is why I have him highest right now because of how he’s treated my slot which has been completely and totally different than how he has the last two games as scum. So why is Frozen scummy to you Mala? What makes him scum here or what do you see paralleled to the other games that gives you that impression?

NGL i don't really have good meta on Frozen. I've only played with him as scum once and it was for a day. So can't give you that parallel stuff. But basically, nothing tracks. I don't think their arguments or pushes make sense, and I know you agree with that since I've seen you say such things so that why I find your progression weird in that regard.

I feel like Frozen is just making pushes to find something that sticks, like only a few of their actual reasoning behind their pushes have made sense to me so far. There so much chainsaw I feel like I'm playing dead by daylight. I also don't like that the only arguments I've seen for them is that they're either playing differently (bad because if theye played scum as much as people seem to say they have they should def be capable of changing playstyle or theyd be busted everygame) or that they believe their stuff/ feel honest (A little better, and I can see some of that, but I also think thats fakeable.)

 

[Malakandra]

I do get what you mean with the interaction stuff though Chaco. I moved Pythag up a bit because of his recent stuff on me lol.

 

[Pythag]

Chaco It really looks more like you've arranged your list from most active to least.

Is that typically a tell for you?

 

[Chaco]

Chaco It really looks more like you've arranged your list from most active to least.

Is that typically a tell for you?

I didn’t even realize that. But I guess it would lend to seeing more of players to get a better grasp in some sense. But overall too town can kind’ve he shifted around without any issue, Frozen is just at top because I see differences there that I have yet to see with him being scum the past two games. Somi at the bottom is due to activity only because of what they’ve done with that activity. They haven’t really produced much of anything this game, it’s been very minuscule hits on selective things, lots of same slot focus, and overall I just don’t see active scumhunting or solving mentality. It’s like sideline commentary on things with partial follow ups. Wam is more unique situation but when he has posted it’s primarily been agreeing with others and that being the whole meat of the post sans one post where you can see him go through a progression. Kary’s low for me not anything to do with activity but the pursuit and how they pushed me, and PoE from those who pushed me. Cause it seems highly unlikely that there’s not scum within that at some point. I backed off of it being Laser due to reading back at how meta heavy he plays, and am leaving that open ended right now as I wait for progression and future content. The others with low activity are more null for me cause I haven’t seen enough to do any sorting without going in and digging to try and find inflection or mindset on their posts. That would be more Boom, Synch, and then that follows with you as well because I haven’t played with you enough to see those particulars that would be a town ping for me or scum ping, but it kind’ve seems to me that you have kind’ve a baseline presentation.

 

[Chaco]

NGL i don't really have good meta on Frozen. I've only played with him as scum once and it was for a day. So can't give you that parallel stuff. But basically, nothing tracks. I don't think their arguments or pushes make sense, and I know you agree with that since I've seen you say such things so that why I find your progression weird in that regard.

I feel like Frozen is just making pushes to find something that sticks, like only a few of their actual reasoning behind their pushes have made sense to me so far. There so much chainsaw I feel like I'm playing dead by daylight. I also don't like that the only arguments I've seen for them is that they're either playing differently (bad because if theye played scum as much as people seem to say they have they should def be capable of changing playstyle or theyd be busted everygame) or that they believe their stuff/ feel honest (A little better, and I can see some of that, but I also think thats fakeable.)

This is what I see: look at how he says that as scum he would use a defense in how I defended myself. Literally in that same post he has a similar defense. Carelessness in that regard shows more emotion and reactivity in a town standpoint. You can see where some of his reads and why he’s looking at things dont make sense. But they totally don’t make sense to pursue as scum, you feel me? Like trying to find a scum ping on me saying equality? Like I half jokingly half seriously said it that it seems like he’s worried that I would pocket him like he did me so he’s being hyper vigilant in that sense. But it’s just things like that for me that motive wise make sense to him being town rather than scum, and simple careless things about the defense and read of Gorf that I didn’t see scumFrozen do previously.

 

[Chaco]

Pythag And to further on Somi, it’s like even when you do come at him he responds to one sentence of it. Which is nearly identical of how he lurked and deflected last game in Kary’s and ultimately Iet the scum slip go. In this case it’s not the scum slip but the appeals to towniness and truthfully not engaging in scumhunting, and selective responses. Like I’m surprised that no one has picked up on his slot either.

 

[Sabrar]

I think this actually puts Wam in the null category, maybe even townie.
with how wam has been playing I just don't see this info being voluntarily given if he's scum.
I'm open to being wrong.

The info was given so that wam can justify his vote. It had a specific purpose.

I like this post,
I also like that it least looks like Sab is sticking his neck out for really no good reason.
this is Sab responding to LG's case, showing flaws in LG's reasoning.
Not sure why it didn't come with a vote as well though.

Because I'm not in the habit of voting every 5 minutes and because LG is capable of making bad cases as town.

 

[Sabrar]

I'm 3 pages behind and don't know the context here, but yes. Almost always in general, and definitely this game. So far he feels like he is struggling to have unique thoughts and it's easy to read/frame that as scummy.

There is no special context here other than your predilection to not vote easy wagons. But let me rephrase: are you unwilling to yeet wam purely because so many people find him scummy?

 

[Pythag]

Sabrar fair enough, thanks for that.
Have you played with Wam before?

 

[Pythag]

Pythag And to further on Somi, it’s like even when you do come at him he responds to one sentence of it. Which is nearly identical of how he lurked and deflected last game in Kary’s and ultimately Iet the scum slip go. In this case it’s not the scum slip but the appeals to towniness and truthfully not engaging in scumhunting, and selective responses. Like I’m surprised that no one has picked up on his slot either.

Somi Is on my radar. I probably will not be looking at the past games. I agree with FF that I don’t think the gain is that great.

 

[Sabrar]

Have you played with Wam before?

Yes, around 10 games or so.

 

[Pythag]

Yes, around 10 games or so.

than is this relatively standard fair?
He seems kinda too wolfy to be a wolf

 

[Sabrar]

No, I'm actually more confused now. Why did you point the typos and formatting out if they're not alignment indicative? How does that factor into your reads? What do typos have to do with experience level?

Yeah, but if the points are arbitrary and don't seem to really reflect Chaco's actual impression of someone, what's the point? (no pun intended)

+1, QFT, etc

than is this relatively standard fair?
He seems kinda too wolfy to be a wolf

Yes, as I mentioned before wam has a habit of getting yeeted early as either alignment. Doesn't mean we should be giving him a pass this time.

 

[Sabrar]

LaserGuy : are you doing the thing where you're completely ignoring me again?

 

[LaserGuy]

So, funny story. Last game that I played, Midnight OPS, I rolled scum and got hit with a case by very early in the game by Xivii based off of something that I felt was mostly BS, but had the unfortunate problem of being true at least insofar as I was actually mafia. I kind of think that same situation may have happend to Chaco. I am right that he's scum, but the reason that I got there is, from his point of view, very dubious. Hence some of the bizarre reactions that I've been struggling to figure out. In particular, he says very clearly on several occasions that he believes my case to be in bad faith and/or scum motivated. Here's some examples:

Spoiler

There’s nothing telling about your case here at all other than you’re trying to force a reason to push me. It honestly makes me think of endgame midnight when you said I tried to make stuff stick to you but never could. This is even weaker.

You fabricating a case and already backpedaling is telling enough.

If that’s a problem for you I apologize, but you know it’s not scummy in the slightest.

That vote and case is so bad faith it’s not even funny

That’s because the whole case is in bad faith.

It would also seem to me that he thinks I would be an easier target to ML than some of the other players and gain favor and cling to “well he was playing differently” as a write off as such. Once again, not enough info to sort him though.

You don’t make a case trying to exploit something early D1 with no backing if you don’t have an agenda, furthermore with no follow up. Not a single scum tell highlighted, completely and totally cold meta. If it was for pressure I would imagine it presented differently. Either he’s digging for anything and everything, or he’s trying to force a ML.

In all of the above, his assumption is that my case isn't legitimate, is fabricated in some way, and although he doesn't say it outright in any of the posts above, the implication very strongly in all of these posts is that he believes I must be scum. I honestly don't see another interpretation that makes sense. Town don't make bad faith cases.

And yet... when it comes to giving an actual read on me, he hedges massively:

Spoiler

I’m not sure whether to scum read him over it or not.

It’s not enough to go off of to sort him one way or the other, I definitely need to see more.

Not sure that fits town Laser, I expect a little more depth than that. It very similarly reminds me of ScumLaser in Midnight trying to make stuff stick, although a great difference in play style here. More active and responsive as opposed to more lurking and wall based play there. Scum play shift or misguided town.

Either you’re tunneling terribly as town, or you’re playing a move as scum that’s gonna end up with your Lynch. That’s what I’m trying to figure out.

To be clear there is no OMGUS to Laser. I said there’s two clear motive paths that one would come from scum and the they severely misguided town. If I was going to OMGUS him I would’ve already laid out his case, timing of case, etc. I laid out why I would think of both and said I’m still trying to figure out which it is.

Laser is not necessarily a scumread, I have to look further into it.

He believes it's possible that I'm misguided Town, but can't actually really articulate a reason why I would be coming up with a case against him that would be in such "bad faith" as he seems to believe. He can't quite ever bring himself to say that he thinks I'm scum, to actually make a positive case for me being scum, or to vote for me. I think the reason for this is TMI. Chaco knows I'm Town, and is convinced that if he actually attacks me, that will cause me to dig in my heels and tunnel him relentlessly, which he desperately doesn't want. And, he's probably right... but more on that later. His overwhelming motivation in the entirety of his posting toward me is to make me go away. He wants desperately to give me an out, that this is just a misunderstanding on my part. I believe he's probably genuine in that he intended to change his posting style this game... it's just that he also happens to be scum and is frustrated that the one person who he feels should have given him a pass on it has gone after him over it. He's caught scum, but caught for reasons that seem manifestly unfair to Chaco.


Although this is by far the most gross example of Chaco hedging, there's at least one other very notable case of it, namely wam:

Only reason I haven’t voted Wam Is because I haven’t been able to read again yet, and I haven’t gotten to look into the rest of the game. He does parrot a lot yes, but he doesn’t strike me as completely doing it out of scumminess? Anyone familiar with Wam to know if this is typical of him? It’s like a game of follow the leader but he’s the follower and not leading any pursuit, so that’s why it doesn’t strike me as completely scummy. I’m not sold on him being a town follower completely, but that’s kind’ve what it seems like to me overall.

Conclusion: Although they mirror and parrot a lot, at this conjecture I want to believe it comes from genuine lack of understanding

My first instinct was that this is Chaco hedging on a townie to avoid needing to drop onto a likely misyeet wagon, but I can't rule out that this is a buddy read and Chaco needed another target, who turned out to be somitomi. I was actually very surprised when Chaco decided to do a post-by-post on somitomi over me. He has indicated several times above that he feels the need to sort me, so this choice of a player quite tangential to the action in lieu of me seems genuinely bizarre. I should have been the first person he did, not a forgotten fourth. I think again this probably points to the fact that Chaco really wants to avoid provoking me. The fact that he literally can't come up with a legit read on me here:

Laser could either to townlean for me or scumlwan depending on his substantiation and reads and what progresses when Fonti v Laser happens.

is absurd given his earlier content.

For the record, if Chaco flips scum, I'm reasonably confident that we'll find at least one buddy on team xkcd most likely by far being one of BoomFrog or Synchronicity who have been giving Chaco some meta support on me. Gut is it's probably BoomFrog given that very strange interaction with BoomFrog's reads right around the time of my case, but Synchro has been sufficiently opaque in thread about this that I can't really rule them out. If I had to guess, I'd say fonti is the third as she seems to have been running interference from Chaco a bit in the last few pages, but I'm much less certain about her at this point. I think there's a chance wam could fit in there somewhere, but honestly I think it's more likely wam is just Town.

Town
LaserGuy
Dark Horse
Sabrar
Frozen
Kary
Malakandra
somitomi
Pythag
wam
fonti
Synchro/BoomFrog - one of these, probably not both.
Chaco
Scum

 

[LaserGuy]

Btw, I'm travelling tomorrow so I will be mobile for most of the day.

LaserGuy : are you doing the thing where you're completely ignoring me again?

Not on purpose. Is there anything you would like me to respond to?

 

[Sabrar]

Not on purpose. Is there anything you would like me to respond to?

I expected you to react to #246 to defend your case ages ago.

 

[fontisian]

Look, Laser, maybe I'm the idiot here, but I don't buy the case against Chaco. He acting weird under pressure, sure, but it wasn't just towards you, it was towards me and Dark Horse and other as well. You're making it out to be this targeted thing to try to get you to back off, but it wasn't, he was lashing out in a lot of directions.

I feel like you're ignoring the content he has given and narrating around it. Like, town!Chaco probably looks at somi before you because he's already suspicious of somi, he knows he's emotionally invested when it comes to you, somi has less content and is therefore easier to go over, and you're just a harder read in general. The argument against that is Chaco himself said he does better getting reads from direct interactions, so maybe town!him would be having an easier time getting a feel from you as you've gone after him. But, idk, I feel like there's understandable reasons for what he's doing, and you're glossing over
them to make this narrative about him trying to avoid you and being caught.

That's the combined with my feeling that he's not posting like he's caught. He's continuously pushing back, and fighting people, and getting into spats like the thing with Kary earlier today. He's trying to figure things out and giving us stuff to work with. That's not how scum who's too scared of you to do anything about you acts.

And I feel like town you would be aware of all this, and be more willing to give the benefit of the doubt? or something like that? Like in Sumting, where you were able to identify new!town and use that to clear someone. This feels more like Midnight Ops, where scum you was still smart, and still making reasonable posts, but you didn't extend that consideration to a newbie and try to understand their thought process.

I think the thing that's pinging me the most about you, though, is that post where you said a bunch of town clearing Chaco and a bunch of scumreads going after him was making you rethink your read. It felt very calculated, I think, probably because it lets you off the hook for your read and lets you fall back on the
"general town opinion." And there's no reference back to that here, did you forget about it? It doesn't seem to be reflected in your reads? Did your reads just change?

Sorry, this is probably not very clear, I'm hella sleep deprived and potentially spouting nonsense. Regardless, I feel like the energy from Chaco is genuine, and I'm sticking with that feeling.

 

[BoomFrog]

I got body slammed by work today. I'm skipping over page 14. I've got a bunch of quotes to sort out, but no time to do it tonight.

Quick impressions: Chaco please don't do a point analysis. They are long and I'm getting little out of them, and the style change is making it harder to be confident in my read of you. Screw conciseness for toDay and give me that raw Chaco that I know and trust.

We really need to consolidate and get some real wagons moving. No more vanity voting. I hereby declare that you must vote for someone who already has votes. (Or if you want to flash yeet me for this manipulative behavior get someone to move with you)

 

[BoomFrog]

Boom seems to have backed laser then dropped it later.

To clarify, I shared laser's concern and could see his perspective but thought it was premature to call Chaco scummy.

This may come as news but I don't read a game very closely when I already know everyone's alignments. I would say frozen in completely vanilla was super confident in things, he had a clear agenda, and his activity came in short bursts. I don't see any of those things here.

That makes sense from your perspective. As I said, no time to be searching other games.

altruistic

FYI, altruistic means sincerely helping for no reason but the desire to help. You are using it in the opposite way.
#HBC | Kary You seem to feel wam is scum if Chaco is scum it off Chaco is town. So why vote Chaco before coming wam?

Kary's agenda is an open book. He is fond of scapegoats.

this link is to a dark horse post. What were you trying to point out?

Good night for real thread. I'll probably kill you in the morning.

 

[Synchronicity]

this link is to a dark horse post. What were you trying to point out?

Read the post.

 

[BoomFrog]

#HBC | FrozeηFlame Why did I not make it into your scum list?

 

[Synchronicity]

Good night for real thread.

Oh, hello :3

 

[BoomFrog]

Read the post.

Hah, I didn't read to the end when I skimmed it the first time. Alright, valid point. I do find it a bit frustrating when people link a whole post but only care about a few sentences in it and I have to reread the whole thing trying to pick out what was supposed to be relevant. I'd prefer quotes if you're able to next time.

 

[BoomFrog]

Oh, hello :3

Turns out cramming in some mafia right before sleep is not a good sleep plan. I'm going try again now.

 

[Synchronicity]

Ok, both halves of my brain have finally caught up. Although I've skimmed some of the above content.

Both halves of my brain have Kary as its strongest scumread. I'll make a case now and post the rest of my thoughts after.

Hah, I didn't read to the end when I skimmed it the first time. Alright, valid point. I do find it a bit frustrating when people link a whole post but only care about a few sentences in it and I have to reread the whole thing trying to pick out what was supposed to be relevant. I'd prefer quotes if you're able to next time.

I'll do my best, but most of what I've already written is in that format, my apologies.

 

[LaserGuy]

Look, Laser, maybe I'm the idiot here, but I don't buy the case against Chaco. He acting weird under pressure, sure, but it wasn't just towards you, it was towards me and Dark Horse and other as well. You're making it out to be this targeted thing to try to get you to back off, but it wasn't, he was lashing out in a lot of directions.

I think his interactions toward me specifically are extremely telling. I'm not disagreeing that he was lashing out at a lot of other players, I just feel that his interactions and hedging toward me specifically are far more indicative of his alignment. I think his frustration is probably genuine; I just think in this particular instance it is probably not relevant to sorting him.

But yes, I think his objective was definitely to get me to back off. I think if he genuinely believed I was acting in bad faith and was Town, he would have pursued me.

That's the combined with my feeling that he's not posting like he's caught. He's continuously pushing back, and fighting people, and getting into spats like the thing with Kary earlier today. He's trying to figure things out and giving us stuff to work with. That's not how scum who's too scared of you to do anything about you acts.

I agreed to give him some space and intentionally avoided commenting on any of his posts today. Of course his content has improved. He thinks he's off the hook and just needs to come up with some legit-looking material and he's probably fine.

And I feel like town you would be aware of all this, and be more willing to give the benefit of the doubt? or something like that? Like in Sumting, where you were able to identify new!town and use that to clear someone. This feels more like Midnight Ops, where scum you was still smart, and still making reasonable posts, but you didn't extend that consideration to a newbie and try to understand their thought process.

There was a very specific reason that I cleared Trisscar in that game; he gave a very strong tell that very clearly indicated his alignment. His other content literally did not matter. He was Town. I wasn't giving him special consideration because he was a newbie per se; I recognized that he was newbie Town and read him as such. I have not seen any content from Chaco that I feel is remotely equivalently clearing. Anyway, in the same game, I also spent a good portion of D1 tunneling Ranmaru and z25. Ran was able to demonstrate he was Town and I cleared him; z25 I correctly read as mafia. I always push hard. Feel free to ask around or check the xkcd archives if you don't believe me (I'm Town in 3/4 games there and pro-Town indie in Hallowe'en).

I think the thing that's pinging me the most about you, though, is that post where you said a bunch of town clearing Chaco and a bunch of scumreads going after him was making you rethink your read. It felt very calculated, I think, probably because it lets you off the hook for your read and lets you fall back on the
"general town opinion." And there's no reference back to that here, did you forget about it? It doesn't seem to be reflected in your reads? Did your reads just change?

No, that was part of the reason why I decided to give Chaco a bit of space and see what he did. I also took some time myself to step out of the heat of the moment and process his content more thoroughly. Ultimately, I trust my read, so I'm going with that even if the consensus believes otherwise.

I expected you to react to #246 to defend your case ages ago.

I don't think setup spec is fluff. I think it's NAI, but it is still useful for generating discussion and can lead to useful content. Asking questions like "Do you think it will be hard to read Synchronicity?" is clearly pointless fluff.