Theres a certain friend of mine that needs to be..... unscrubbed?

[UltiMario]

Link to original post: [drupal=2616]Theres a certain friend of mine that needs to be..... unscrubbed?[/drupal]



Theres a certain online friend of mine that, well, isn't the sharpest pencil around, and is agruing points about competative smash on a different forum, while we had some chatroom-based conflict which posting here would be a bit too much work to gather, I'm simply going to post his arguements here. And remember, this guy WANTS to know WHY things are. Don't go trollin', just keep it cool, answer his questions, and enlighten him on why we do it our way, and why he should respect that. I want a group effort from this site to turn the most stubborn man born into someone that can respect opinions, and wholeheartedly the facts of competative Smash.

Quote:
So after I recent discussion, I've decided to look up standard SMBM/SMBB tournament rules, and I find them to be rather ****ty.

My main problem is level selection. I'm reading through the reasoning and half the stages are banned because of a DIVIDE IN THE MIDDLE (like Peach's Castle) or A CLOUD TO THE LEFT. This is ****. In brawl, only 5 of the 41 stages are acceptable in most tournaments.

As for items go, they are completely random, meaning you are just as likely to get an item as your opponent.

Other than Smash Balls, and MAYBE the hammers, I have not seen one single thing that has been banned for a good reason. I bought a game that has 35 characters, 41 stages, and 52 items in it's multiplayer mode, not 3 characters, 5 stages, and no items.

Discuss your opinions.
I pretty much instantly killed him on this one, but I think you guys could expand on it moreso than I did just by stating how he is wrong in his facts, he knows his facts are wrong now, but remember, he wants to know WHY.

Quote:
Nine times out of ten my favorite character/stage/items are all banned. WHy? For the sake of "fair and balanced gameplay."

For example, the far right cloud in Yoshi's Island provides an "unfair defensive advantage" to defensive characters. In this situation, a truly "skilled" player would RUN OVER THERE, KICK THEY GUY'S ***, AND TAKE THE **** CLOUD. Instead of using their "skill" to win, they decided to moan, *****, and complain until that stage is removed. This is why Final Destination is like sex to tourney***s, except they're actually getting it.

As far as random items go, let's say your opponent get's a bobomb. He throws it at you, rather than quit because of "unfair advantages," you should use your "skill" to DODGE THE BOMB AND HIT HIM WITH THE BEAMSWORD THAT JUST POPPED UP NEXT TO YOU.

True skill in a game encompasses all aspects of the game, not just specific rulesets on specific stages using specific things to your advantage.
This is something I'm sure everyone will make a post for.

Quote:
"Competitive Smash" only covers a massively watered down version of the game. Wouldn't being "the best" mean you just dominate all aspects of it? If you win a tournament that follows Smashboard's rules, that only means you're you dominate a handful of levels on a very specific ruleset. No matter how you justify it, you're still only the champ of a small minuscule part of the game.

As for Fox holding the cloud, try turning on items. He won't be able to hold onto that cloud forever anymore.
I explained to him the Problem with YI64 stage in Melee, and this was his post response at the very end of it. For the rest, get at 'im


If you don't get it by now, I am BEGGING the community to continue responding to this, and contradicting everything he said, and WHY we do it our way. I want to get it so he understands that you're opinion isn't the only way, and there is hard evidence that competative play is very right about what it follows.

Also, if anyone wants to, make posts expanding on the banning of items, and why some stages and banned/CP.

Seriously.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

You didn't quote this properly, but I'll leave two cents.

The problem w/ the stages and items is that they can give certain characters too good of an advantage. Let's look at Meta Knight, the best character in Brawl. With stages like Hyrule, and New Pork City, he becomes more broken and decreases tourney viability. Oh, and overcentralizes the metagame.

Super Smash Brothers wasn't made specifically for the competitive crowd. That's why items are overpowered and there are stages that determine the winner and not the player.

There is a thread about Items in Tactical Discussion. Get off the couch and look it up cause I'm sick of debating on items in competitive play.

Edit: Not sure what to say about Melee, but I'll consider that all the players enjoy their game enough to where they don't want it to change the slightest bit.

 

[ScrubManLol]

Quoted from TVtropes.
---
A Scrub is a player of a competitive videogame who adamantly believes that his or her "house rules" should apply to everyone to promote his or her view of "fair play". If a scrub sees a move or strategy he doesn't like (or can't beat), he bans it (if only in his own mind), and complains that anyone who uses it is cheap.
---

Scrub is far from the right term, more like anti-scrub. You guys are the ones making the rules of competitive Brawling, not me. So if you're going to try and insult me, at least do it accurately.

I would also like to add that the thread that he quotes from was made to discuss personal preferences when playing. As such, I mention that I prefer to go by the default rules, as I don't play more than once a month. Call me unskilled or whatever, but these are personal preferences, and no matter how much you guys object, I'll still have more fun losing to a bomb my friend throws at me than winning to your rules, because I personally find it more fun. And isn't that what these games are supposed to be about? Having fun?

 

[altairian]

If you don't like tourney rules, don't play tourneys, or run your own with different rules. It's that simple. Nobody is forcing you to do anything.

 

[bobson]

Let's look at Meta Knight, the best character in Brawl. With stages like Mario Bros. and Hanenbow, and even New Pork City, he becomes more broken and decreases tourney viability.

Metaknight has absolutely nothing to do with why any of those stages are banned and is actually pretty bad on Mario Bros.

 

[Clownbot]

Just out of curiosity, what is this friend's opinion on tiers? I'm guessing based on his talk of "skill" that he doesn't believe in them, but I'm interested to hear his standpoint on that.

(P.S. I'm a casual player and I find most of the competitive tournament rules to be legitimate and fair. I'm just leaving the OP open for people who have a better knowledge of competitive Smash because they can probably touch up on a lot of the points better.)

EDIT: Oh look, a plethora of posts while I was writing mine up.

 

[ScrubManLol]

If you don't like tourney rules, don't play tourneys, or run your own with different rules. It's that simple. Nobody is forcing you to do anything.

I did not start the discussion because I disagreed with tourney rules, I started it because I heard a discussion regarded them, got interested, and did some looking up. I made the thread to express my personal opinion on the said rules. However ultimario failed to realize that they are personal opinions, and rather than post his own opinions, he started a debate.

Just out of curiosity, what is this friend's opinion on tiers? I'm guessing based on his talk of "skill" that he doesn't believe in them, but I'm interested to hear his standpoint on that.

Meh. I'll admit some characters have advantage over others, but as for teirs go, I really could care less if Metaknight has an advantage over Yoshi, I just want to play the game already.

 

[Kholdstare]

Please stop using the term "scrub". It's annoying and doesn't make you cool. kthxbai

As for the subject, in short, items are banned because they give opponents unfair advantages and don't let you win based on skill. Stages are banned because some are not fun to play on and you get killed for no ****ing reason, such as Hanenbow.

 

[SuSa]

Quoted from TVtropes.
---
A Scrub is a player of a competitive videogame who adamantly believes that his or her "house rules" should apply to everyone to promote his or her view of "fair play". If a scrub sees a move or strategy he doesn't like (or can't beat), he bans it (if only in his own mind), and complains that anyone who uses it is cheap.
---

Scrub is far from the right term, more like anti-scrub. You guys are the ones making the rules of competitive Brawling, not me. So if you're going to try and insult me, at least do it accurately.

I would also like to add that the thread that he quotes from was made to discuss personal preferences when playing. As such, I mention that I prefer to go by the default rules, as I don't play more than once a month. Call me unskilled or whatever, but these are personal preferences, and no matter how much you guys object, I'll still have more fun losing to a bomb my friend throws at me than winning to your rules, because I personally find it more fun. And isn't that what these games are supposed to be about? Having fun?

Let me put it a this way:
Tournaments / Competitive Playing = YOU PLAY FOR COMPETITION NOT FUN

Wall of text that won't matter:
That make enough sense to you? Since you don't understand why items and certain stages change the competitive value of a game to "camp and hope you get a golden hammer, while your opponent gets a smoke ball". Also, I suggest you watch Super Ganon Time. It shows how the worst character in the game, suddenly gets 0-deaths with practically half the items, and combos with other items that you'd only have to do twice to get a KO with. Is that wrong? Not really. Can many other characters do that? Not that I know of.

In an Items-Allowed tournament, I'd see Ganon suddenly becoming high tier only because of how his side-B allows him to abuse items up the ***.


Also, good luck taking that far right cloud from a good player. Hell, the player doesn't even have to be that skilled to keep control of that cloud. Grabbed an item to hit Fox off? Fox just uses down-B. Rejected. Oh, now you have to go over there and take it from him? Good luck approaching!

It basically makes the situation "Well, your opponent got the cloud. You just lost the game." Because it's always a constant advantage over your opponent. Practically every legal stage is a neutral state that some characters can utilize better then others. But the fact it's MOSTLY a neutral state tends to make the stages "fair" and it relies more on SKILL then "I'm just going to sit here, holding a home run bat on this cloud until you approach me. Because, unless I **** up, you can't get me off."

EDIT:
Wrong Kholdstare. <_<

"Fun" has no meaning in a competitive scene. There are those who find competition "fun" however. Why do you think we still have Low Tier mains entering Singles? Most know they have 0 chance at money, but they still find the competition fun.

At higher levels, you generally see higher tiers - or players who REALLY know what the **** they are doing (See: FOW) who play for MONEY, not just fun.

Winning money = fun

At least, that's how I see it. I love to win.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Metaknight has absolutely nothing to do with why any of those stages are banned.

It doesn't have to be just MK, there's Falco, Snake, Diddy, D3, etc. D3 and others have wall infinities that make stages like Corneria banned. Meta Knight and Pit can stall matches on New Pork City and Hyrule w/ gliding (and the stage is simply too big).

And of course, there's the environmental hazards in the stages that characters can take too big of an advantage out of.

 

[ScrubManLol]

You guys could kick my *** at brawl on any ruleset any day, but I did not make the thread here. I made the thread on a forum with a lot of people on a much lower skill level. I made the thread and expressed my opinion on those rules in relation to the skill level of the people from that community.

 

[Firus]

It doesn't have to be just MK, there's Falco, Snake, Diddy, D3, etc. D3 and others have wall infinities that make stages like Corneria banned. Meta Knight and Pit can stall matches on New Pork City and Hyrule w/ gliding (and the stage is simply too big).

Hanenbow and Mario Bros. are not, however, banned due to any correlation with characters. ESPECIALLY not Mario Bros.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Hanenbow and Mario Bros. are not, however, banned due to any correlation with characters. ESPECIALLY not Mario Bros.

Yeah, I made an error there. I even thought twice about those loltastic stages but still typed them. Sorry bout that. I'll edit my post.

 

[ScrubManLol]

Wow, not quite what I expected. In irc, Ultimario was going off like you guys were going to try to tear my statements to shreds and throw a tantrum for me disagreeing with how you play the game. I guess I was expecting you all to be like Ultimario, glad I was wrong.
Other than the moderator taking the hardcore gamer stance when the original discussion clearly does not include any hardcore gamers, you guys actually seem decent.

 

[urdailywater]

Tournaments / Competitive Playing = YOU PLAY FOR COMPETITION NOT FUN

so why don't more people just quit the gaming community and go do something else like football soccer or something like that?



the way you make it sound people don't play the games because they have fun with it over other things. but they do. everyone does something for a reason and interest and fun are a major factor in what you do.

if you're just competitive then well dam it doesn't make sense as to why you're not doing something more competitive than this

it's like 2 am so i'm probably misunderstanding you though x.x

 

[-Ran]

Competitive gamers are typically your friends that also play the game with your rules when they go to your house. Unfortunately, significant skill gaps appear and they move on to play better opponents. The main reason our rule sets exist is because we want to make the matches as fair and balanced as possible so that a true winner can be found. That what we are looking for, the most legitimate win. To us, as a community we decided that we did not like random variables to be the heart of our competitive scene, since they don't exist in other games.

So we removed items. [Randomly drop on the screen, some weapons are incredibly powerful. There is a competitive rule set that is used by some players though.]
We removed stages with random elements.

Then after looking at the game, we noticed some trends in stages that were simply causing the flow of matches to change due to elements in the. So we removed:
-Stages with walk offs due to chain grabbing characters, and because people would camp the edge of the stage to get an easy throw for a kill.
-Stages that have what is known as the 'cave of immortality' effect. If a stage has a ceiling that you can tech off, then you can survive to simply dumb percents.

And that pretty much got us to the game as we play it now. All in the pursuit of finding who is the best player.

 

[Jim Morrison]

He has been reading Encyclopedia Dramatica.
Give him 1 on month of SWF and he'll turn into a tourney***, the same happened to me.

 

[ScrubManLol]

WALL OF TEXT THAT I WOULD BE CRAZY TO QUOTE

This is all in relation to how this community plays the game. I understand that you guys set your own rules for your community. The original topic was made on a completely different website, and was based around the flaws in the rules based in relation to how the people there play the game.

You have you rules, we have ours. I was discussing your rules in relation to our skillset in our community.

 

[SuSa]

This is why there is such a gap between casual and competitive players.

It's like asking a casual player to do a speed run of a game, a competitive player would simply do it faster, and better. (Competitive people FOR speed runs tend to know how to do them properly, a casual player wouldn't)

There is no "proper" way to play Smash, but there is a "competitive" way, and multitudes of "casual" ways. Hence the division.

 

[ScrubManLol]

The original topic was made to discuss the rules your community has made and how the relate to ours. Ultimario however decided that we were wrong for playing it our own way and decided to bring the discussion here, a move that almost got him outright banned.
I was not being critical of competitive players, I was being critical about the rules you have made in relation to how they would work for a completely different community.
Ultimario was the one that decided to jump in and claim that your rules are above all rules and should be obeyed by all.
I have no quarrel with you or your rules. I was simply saying how they would not work for a completely different community.

 

[SuSa]

Nine times out of ten my favorite character/stage/items are all banned. WHy? For the sake of "fair and balanced gameplay."

For example, the far right cloud in Yoshi's Island provides an "unfair defensive advantage" to defensive characters. In this situation, a truly "skilled" player would RUN OVER THERE, KICK THEY GUY'S ***, AND TAKE THE **** CLOUD. Instead of using their "skill" to win, they decided to moan, *****, and complain until that stage is removed. This is why Final Destination is like sex to tourney***s, except they're actually getting it.

That sounds more of a stab at our community and our rules. Considering you don't even know why things are banned from play - assumed, and made yourself look like an ***.

 

[ScrubManLol]

"They" being the people who keep telling us to play that way. I'm not directing that towards you, but rather the select few of you that believe everyone should play that way, competitive or not. I had a problem with the not.

I'd like to add that that particular post was made after getting badgered by said people, so yeah, I was a bit harsh.

 

[bobson]

We hate those *******s, too, don't worry.

 

[SuSa]

What bobson said.

Many competitive players fail to see people ACTUALLY HAVE FUN playing casually.

But the majority of the competitive players are actually pretty cool about it, and many (lol mostly Texas. xD) have come up with little casual-esque "minigames" for enjoyable fights that aren't the standard SBR ruleset.

 

[ScrubManLol]

Summary of everything I said in the original topic:

1. You have your rules, I am cool with that.

2. Some of the reasons why some levels are banned do not apply to our community
---None of us are skilled enough to chaingrab people off the side of walk off levels
---None of us are skilled enough to camp the previously mentioned cloud
---Many of us laugh our ***** off when we lose to a bobomb

3. The rules should not apply to a community that centers itself around a very wide variety of games

4. The people who come to our community and impose your rules upon us need to shut it

I know you guys are just like any other community based on a central theme. You guys are usually cool, but there are always those that go out of their way to impose their rules on other communities. These people are the tourney***s, not you.

EDIT:

5. We don't even take our tournaments seriously.
---If my friend Geno won the tourney that is going on right now in our community, by luck or not, we would still say "Hail Geno, king of the Smashers" and then throw a home-run bat at him and keep playing.

 

[SuSa]

"None of us are skilled enough to chaingrab people off the side of walk off levels"

Trust me, you are SKILLED ENOUGH. You just DON'T or DON'T KNOW HOW.

Here's a tip:

Pick DDD vs anyone heavier then Zelda (so not against lightweights, you should at least know who the lightweights are)
Grab, down throw. Dash. Grab. Down throw. Repeat.

3. The rules are ONLY for Brawl. You can't take the Brawl Ruleset and apply it to Street Fighter, it just wouldn't work.

4. And the scrubs who say we don't know what we're talking about and use "BUT ITS FUN" need to GTFO, we can't control either side. You're going to have to live on it. There are those casualscrubs as much as those tourney***s.

5. When we have tournaments were the pot can be $400, $600, or even $1000+, we take it VERY SERIOUSLY. That's not just $10 or $20 (the pot to most casual tourneys I go to, if there is even a pot....) is NOTHING. Hell, many casual tourneys I go to don't even HAVE a cash reward, it's all for the ****s and giggles right from the start. Us competitive players, MONEY IS ON THE LINE. It's not fun to have that game winning attack, and have a Bob-omb just HAPPEN to spawn RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU AS YOU ATTACK, and you blow up and lose the game, and kiss $800 goodbye.

 

[ScrubManLol]

Yeah, the not having skill part was a lie, but it's easier and shorter than typing "Anyone who actually does chaingrab like that is seen as a jerk and loses imaginary respect points." And it makes me seem like less of a jerk.

The wide variety was meant to say that many of us play many games, and very few of us spend most of our time playing a specific game. Since we are based around so many games, we cannot have rules for individual games. However you guys are centered around one single game (or three depending on how you see it), so making rules for your community makes perfect sense.
As for the money tourneys, I know, that's part of how you guys do things, I'm cool with that. We just don't have any money, nor enough players to merit a pot.

 

[SuSa]

Many of us play many, many games.

We just happen to game a bit more often.

 

[ScrubManLol]

You missed the point though, you guys built this community around a single game (or three), whereas we built ours around many. I do not believe so many rules should apply to such a small part of our community.

And 4. I did not come here to impose my rules upon you. I am perfectly fine with you having your own rules. I am here because Ulti did not like that I did not think they were suitable for our community.

 

[SuSa]

For most any game that can be played competitively, if there is a large enough faction of players, you can bet your *** on their being competitive rules.

My friend plays Pokemon, Yu-Gi-Oh, and Magic: The Gathering card games all competitively. All different rules by far, and completely different in how you play.

Many people play Street Fighter # (IV nowadays), Marvel vs Capcom 2, AND Brawl.

The point is that the focus of the community is around Smash, but that doesn't mean that's ALL we know about.

 

[ScrubManLol]

I think it was a problem with wording.
I never intended to say that's the only thing you do. I was trying to say that you spend a much larger portion of your time playing Brawl than we do, and that competitive rules should not be used in a community that has no real competitive play.

 

[SuSa]

I play Brawl 1-2 times a month. Many other top level players don't even own Brawl/own a Wii and only play at tournaments. :s

 

[ScrubManLol]

And are these people the average user here or tournament player? Or the exception to the rule? I think it would be logical to assume the people at SMASHBOARDS play more Smash Bros than the average gamer.

 

[Omnicron's Baklava Enterprises]

And are these people the average user here or tournament player? Or the exception to the rule? I think it would be logical to assume the people at SMASHBOARDS play more Smash Bros than the average gamer.

You should stop this argument, because it looks like you're losing.

Your statement might not be true.
I've seen quite some people here that are apparently "good" at Brawl, yet they say that they hardly ever play it, choosing Melee instead or just getting on with life.

Some people on SWF may indeed play more Smash than some other gamers, but certainly not the majority of them.
Yes, we like Smash, but no, we don't spend all of our time playing it.
Go to the Poke Center, the Zelda room, or the Light House.

 

[ScrubManLol]

I keep trying to say that the only reason this topic was started in the first place was because ultimario didn't like me objecting to your rules being used for a completely different community. But every time I do so someone has to nitpick about some minute detail.

I am perfectly ok with you guys having your rules, but I do not feel those rules apply to the community I am from. Likewise, I feel that when you take into consideration the manner is which we play, the majority of the rules are unnecessary.

The original topic on the other website was directed at those people that wish to force your rules upon us, no matter what style of play we do. However when one of those people got offended by my objection to using these rules unquestionably, he brought it here.

I am not trying to argue with you guys. I am trying to explain that the original topic was on a different website and directed at different people.

 

[Omnicron's Baklava Enterprises]

I keep trying to say that the only reason this topic was started in the first place was because ultimario didn't like me objecting to your rules being used for a completely different community. But every time I do so someone has to nitpick about some minute detail.

I'm sorry, but that is what SWF does; it has happened to me numerous times since I've joined. It is very extremely irritating, but it happens.

I am not trying to argue with you guys. I am trying to explain that the original topic was on a different website and directed at different people.

Then why did you even come here to begin it? You came here just to tell us that this was on another website towards other people?

 

[ScrubManLol]

Then why did you even come here to begin it? You came here just to tell us that this was on another website towards other people?

If you take a look at this thread, it was made by Ultimario. He brought it here, not I. I am only here to attempt to make sure anything he quotes is not taken out of context, and unfortunately, it has.

 

[Teran]

I don't see the problem with Scrubman trying to play the game his own way. After all, that's pretty much the entire point of Smash. Just give the dude a break and let him do what he wants.

If he's happy playing Brawl the way he is, then nobody should tell him which way is right. The right way to play this game is to play it in a way you enjoy. For this reason, this entire argument is moot, and nobody really gives a **** about what you think (directed at all parties).

Basically the larger portion of the competitive Smash community likes this set of rules, so let them play this way. Scrubman likes to play however he likes, so let him play that way.

What are we, the Super Smash Fun Police?