There Better not be brawl airdodges....

[Yobolight]

I would prefer a wavedashable airdodge, but the unlimited airdodges is just a combo ruiner.

Opinions?

 

[Baskerville]

Unlimited airdodges aren't really the cause of "combo ruiner". Its just that in Brawl you can just cancel out hitstun just by doing raw aerials.

 

[Yobolight]

Unlimited airdodges aren't really the cause of "combo ruiner". Its just that in Brawl you can just cancel out hitstun just by doing raw aerials.

They at least eliminate the possibility for matchup specific juggles, which I think is a bad thing.

 

[FlareHabanero]

The way Brawl used the air dodge was superior simply due to the fact that it doesn't leave you helpless and you can use it as many times as you desire. The only disadvantage is the lack of movement, which can make some dodges more risky and doesn't allow a last resort recovery option.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

I think I heard someone on these boards suggest a combination of the two, where doing a neutral air dodge acts like it does in Brawl, where as doing a directional air dodge will act like it does in Melee. Thoughts?

 

[Yobolight]

The way Brawl used the air dodge was superior simply due to the fact that it doesn't leave you helpless and you can use it as many times as you desire. The only disadvantage is the lack of movement, which can make some dodges more risky and doesn't allow a last resort recovery option.

fair enough, but the cool down on an air dodge should definitely be higher brawl airdodge is just too safe

 

[Johnknight1]

After you air dodge once, I believe you shouldn't be able to do anything but DI, air dodge again, or use your up B (if you haven't used it in the air already).

Also, there should be a 1 second delay before you could air dodge again. Maybe it could be visible as a "ticker" or "flash" on a character for new players to understand easily.

My 2839243434372821929102 cents at least.

 

[-LzR-]

fair enough, but the cool down on an air dodge should definitely be higher brawl airdodge is just too safe

If you had ever played Brawl for more than 5 matches you'd know how dangerous airdodging is. Airdodging is why it's so easy to hit bad people with charged smashes and other powerful but slow moves. There should definitely be Brawl airdodges in SSB4 but they should implement wavedash as a mechanic other than an exploit.

 

[Gea]

Gravity plays a way larger role in the importance of which airdodge makes more sense, wavedashing aside. Brawl had so much hangtime that repeated airdodges actually sort of made sense.

 

[Wobbly Headed Bob]

The way Brawl used the air dodge was superior simply due to the fact that it doesn't leave you helpless and you can use it as many times as you desire. The only disadvantage is the lack of movement, which can make some dodges more risky and doesn't allow a last resort recovery option.

Lol. So if Up B didn't leave you helpless, would it be superior to its current state?

Not really. There's actually a lot of value in having the air dodge and up B leaving you helpless, and that is that it caters towards a more rewarding gameplay where there is a high focus on decision making.

If you had ever played Brawl for more than 5 matches you'd know how dangerous airdodging is. Airdodging is why it's so easy to hit bad people with charged smashes and other powerful but slow moves. There should definitely be Brawl airdodges in SSB4 but they should implement wavedash as a mechanic other than an exploit.

Wavedashing is an exploit in every other game it is in. Most advanced techniques and advanced combos in games are exploits. The developer understands this when developing the game, as many studios such as Netherrealm have pointed out. And guess what? They usually don't have a problem with it unless the mechanic is game-breaking. Wavedashing is far from it. Sakurai specifically removed advanced techniques to remove depth from the game and hinder competitive gaming, as it is expressed in his interviews.

Gravity plays a way larger role in the importance of which airdodge makes more sense, wavedashing aside. Brawl had so much hangtime that repeated airdodges actually sort of made sense.

I think we have the order backwards here. I think gravity time was increased because the new air-dodges, not the other way around. I mean, it kind of made sense taking into account that Sakurai wanted to get rid of wavedashing and ATs, but this is just speculation.

 

[Johnknight1]

I just remembered Brawl's air dodge wasn't a momentum changer like Melee's air dodge.

I guess you forget how Brawl works after not playing it without gameplay mods for about 2 years!

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I did not like how Melee's air dodges leave you helpless afterwards, so Brawl's air dodge was an improvement, to some extent.

 

[Life]

I don't mind Brawl airdodge (except that there's basically no hitstun for them), although I'd like wavedashing back in some other way (perhaps through an airdash?).

 

[Johnknight1]

I don't care about wavedashing that much, but man oh man, wavelanding returning would be awesome.

While we're at it, dash dancing (and not that Brawl fake crap that makes you trip) should return, too!

 

[Lukingordex]

Brawl airdodges aren't that safe,it's easy to punish people who likes to airdodge a lot.

Spoiler

Especially on wi-fi

 

[Big-Cat]

I think I heard someone on these boards suggest a combination of the two, where doing a neutral air dodge acts like it does in Brawl, where as doing a directional air dodge will act like it does in Melee. Thoughts?

I'd be fine with this.

On air dodging canceling hitstun, it just needs to do the aerial ukemis like in BlazBlue.

 

[Vkrm]

Melee AD was perfect. Not broken, but incredibly useful. Kuma, stop trying to make smash into BB, GGX2, or marvel. Prepare for salt. All the people who want brawls broken AD seem to be scrubs who are used to having their hand held.

 

[Wobbly Headed Bob]

I'd be fine with this.

On air dodging canceling hitstun, it just needs to do the aerial ukemis like in BlazBlue.

Why are you fine with that? For someone that says they like to consider and analyze alternate possibilities, you accepted that pretty quick.

And nooooh, we don't want Ukemis. Those shift/cancel momentum and are designed for games where infinite juggle combos are a possibility. Smash already has DI and variable knockback, Ukemis would just cripple the game.

 

[Twinkles]

Melee AD's are sick. Forces you to be conservative with them while recovering, but there's such a good amount of ways for you to outright dupe opponents by doing it.

 

[Snakeyes]

I'd prefer a directional Melee air dodge (only one per airborne sequence) that doesn't leave you helpless.

 

[Delta-cod]

Melee AD was perfect. Not broken, but incredibly useful. Kuma, stop trying to make smash into BB, GGX2, or marvel. Prepare for salt. All the people who want brawls broken AD seem to be scrubs who are used to having their hand held.

You have a pretty poor understanding of Brawl if you think Brawl's AD is broken. AD traps are one of the basic elements of competitive play and are one of the most important things when considering juggles in Brawl.

 

[Twinkles]

@snakeeyes

i dunno, i feel like that would make some character's recoveries too strong

 

[-LzR-]

Melee AD was perfect. Not broken, but incredibly useful. Kuma, stop trying to make smash into BB, GGX2, or marvel. Prepare for salt. All the people who want brawls broken AD seem to be scrubs who are used to having their hand held.

As usual your argument falls into Melee is Melee and Melee is good so Melee is better than Brawl because Brawl is bad so everything in Melee is better.
I think Melee airdodges are incredibly situational. There are barely any moments to use them except for wavelanding mixups. Other than that you will lag a lot and get punished even if you do manage to dodge the attack. Brawls AD is perfect as long as it wouldn't be able to cancel hitstun early. And even then, because you AD is the first thing you can do in hitstun, it's the first thing people except you to do to. It's a simple thing really and people get punished really, really hard for doing that.

 

[Opossum]

Melee AD was perfect. Not broken, but incredibly useful. Kuma, stop trying to make smash into BB, GGX2, or marvel. Prepare for salt. All the people who want brawls broken AD seem to be scrubs who are used to having their hand held.

And this is why no one here takes you seriously.

 

[Vkrm]

@deltacod of course brawl ad is broken. Or you could flip it and say that Hit stun is under powered. On one side of the spectrum you have a healthy pvp scenario, will he/won't he. On the other hand MK can just space up airs. It hits, great. They airdodge, that's cool, try for another up air. Brain dead gameplay if I've ever seen it.

Lzr I don't need examples from melee to explain why brawl is a lousy game. If you don't care enough to really see how bad brawl is, that's on you.

Opossum: Don't care. Now maybe there's something wrong with me, but the fact that there's a group of insignificant brawl ***s who think me an idiot, isn't really bugging me right now. Maybe because I know that they are the idiots. They would have to be to even try to defend brawl

 

[Ember Reaper]

And this is why no one here takes you seriously.

I think you have become my favorite poster Opossum.

Ah but with the air dodges. Melee left you wide open to be hit. Yeah you avoid once way up but that's it. you're done. Near the ground it's not as bad because of wave dashing I suppose.
But multiple ones in Brawl keep you from getting comboed if done properly. And as a Link player is a strong portion of my game to use bombs, and the boomerang effectively. I like the combination idea. Where airdodge in a direction moves you and yoru idle, but no direction keeps you safe and free to do so again. a happy medium

 

[Wobbly Headed Bob]

As usual your argument falls into Melee is Melee and Melee is good so Melee is better than Brawl because Brawl is bad so everything in Melee is better.
I think Melee airdodges are incredibly situational. There are barely any moments to use them except for wavelanding mixups. Other than that you will lag a lot and get punished even if you do manage to dodge the attack. Brawls AD is perfect as long as it wouldn't be able to cancel hitstun early. And even then, because you AD is the first thing you can do in hitstun, it's the first thing people except you to do to. It's a simple thing really and people get punished really, really hard for doing that.

Nope. That first sentence is a straw man.

And yes, Melee air dodges, like many things in that game, are situational. It takes skill to use them, and it's a high-reward mechanic that caters towards heavier and more careful decision making. The Brawl air-dodge stales the game.

Do you want to play a fast-paced game that takes skill and the decisions you make matter? Or do you want to play a game where you can just throw commands with much less deliberation and have it become a borefest like Brawl? :v

And this is why no one here takes you seriously.

I think you have become my favorite poster Opossum.

LOL. Notice how it's two kids with brawl character suggestion sigs saying this.

Not to throw anyone under a bus, but I've heard Axe from AZ say things very similar to VKRM perfect melee AD comment.

Ah but with the air dodges. Melee left you wide open to be hit. Yeah you avoid once way up but that's it. you're done. Near the ground it's not as bad because of wave dashing I suppose.
But multiple ones in Brawl keep you from getting comboed if done properly. And as a Link player is a strong portion of my game to use bombs, and the boomerang effectively. I like the combination idea. Where airdodge in a direction moves you and yoru idle, but no direction keeps you safe and free to do so again. a happy medium

We know that air dodges leave you wide open, that's why you need to learn how to use them and not have the game carry you around and do scrubs favors with a ****ty stale game as a consequence. And you suppose? I think it's evident where you stand when it comes to how well you can play the game.

In Brawl, I main Ike and Link. And yeah, the Brawl airdodges facilitated a couple of things for Link like his hookshot game, but it was little compensation for some things he lost from the Melee transition. I'm confident that the air dodge system cripples Link's projectile game, although it was given a little but more leverage in the moves themselves.

You should see how cool Y. Link's projectile game is in Melee.

 

[Twinkles]

You have DI, techs, edge slips, all different kinds of variables for you to make use of to avoid combos. I don't know **** about Brawl, but Melee AD is not a bad mechanic. It forces you to think before you use it, but creative use of it and you escape punishment with the overwhelming satisfaction that you just duped the **** out of your opponent.

Also allows for creative recoveries.

 

[Frostwraith]

I always thought it was stupid to become helpless after air dodges, so I welcomed its change in Brawl, and hope that it will stay the same for this game.

 

[Delta-cod]

@deltacod of course brawl ad is broken. Or you could flip it and say that Hit stun is under powered. On one side of the spectrum you have a healthy pvp scenario, will he/won't he. On the other hand MK can just space up airs. It hits, great. They airdodge, that's cool, try for another up air. Brain dead gameplay if I've ever seen it.

That's a poor argument, and has more to do with MK being especially good rather than AD being broken.

Air dodges tend to last for around 30 frames. Most aerials used to airdodge trap don't have as long a duration, meaning airdodge traps and punishes are fairly common. You also are neglecting landing traps, another huge part of countering airdodges, which require more thought than your "spam Uair with MK lololol" argument.

You're also neglecting to factor in fall speeds and aerial drifting when thinking about how "braindead" airdodges are. Like, you clearly don't have enough knowledge of Brawl to actually be debating about this. Please don't continue to post like you know exactly how Brawl works when you've likely never even played it at a relevant level.

 

[Vkrm]

MK's up air is so good, you could swing, see it miss, then time another one to hit them in their recovery. It doesn't have to be meta. If you do succeed in reading an AD with any other character what happens? The same situation repeats. Because of the lack of solid follow ups it's like you need to read somebody like a dozen times before it pays off. Even then, I don't really consider it reading when the opponent is so limited in their choices. If you see me as some random scrub, and you can't take what I have to say as legit criticism, listen to what m2k has said about brawl.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

MK's up air is so good, you could swing, see it miss, then time another one to hit them in their recovery. It doesn't have to be meta. If you do succeed in reading an AD with any other character what happens? Because of the lack of solid follow ups it's like you need to read somebody like a dozen times before it pays off. Even then, I don't really consider it reading when the opponent is so limited in their choices.

Rofl, an opponent is never so limited in their choices than when they're being hit by a melee string. Get outta here.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Vkrm post translation. Apply directly to any Vkrm post.

Brawl fans and players who like any mechanic from brawl are scrubs. Scrubs are bad. Bad players like brawl. Good players like melee. Brawl mechanics hold your hand. Melee mechanics are hardcore, like me. Everyone, melee is good, brawl is bad. Anything added by brawl was bad because melee was good. Smash 4 should be melee 2. Melee was good, so nothing should ever change.

 

[Vkrm]

Wrong sir. Di in melee is way more responsive then it is in brawl. I do agree that brawl is more lenient on you when you get hit, but at that point you should at a disadvantage because you did get hit. In melee, surviving is your responsibility, it's hard but it's better than brawls meddling. Saving you regardless of what move you got hit by.

Meant to quote ryker.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Then why are you up in arms about not having options after getting hit? Rofl.

 

[Delta-cod]

MK's up air is so good, you could swing, see it miss, then time another one to hit them in their recovery. It doesn't have to be meta. If you do succeed in reading an AD with any other character what happens? The same situation repeats. Because of the lack of solid follow ups it's like you need to read somebody like a dozen times before it pays off. Even then, I don't really consider it reading when the opponent is so limited in their choices. If you see me as some random scrub, and you can't take what I have to say as legit criticism, listen to what m2k has said about brawl.

Reading an AD with other characters largely depends on what you decide to hit them with.

The opponent is recovering and you read the AD? Semi-spike/spike.

The opponent is trying to land and you read the AD? Kill move.

Juggling the opponent and you read the AD? Either continue the juggle, aerial kill move, or hit them with a horizontal knockback move in order to set up an edge guard.

These are just a few basic options.

Also, you're given far more options in Brawl after being hit than you are in Melee. Don't try to make this argument in a vacuum.

Wrong sir. Di in melee is way more responsive then it is in brawl. I do agree that brawl is more lenient on you when you get hit, but at that point you should at a disadvantage because you did get hit. In melee, surviving is your responsibility, it's hard but it's better than brawls meddling. Saving you regardless of what move you got hit by.

You are in a disadvantage when you get hit in Brawl. You lose stage positioning, momentum, optimal options, you get put either above the opponent or offstage which make you much more liable to follow ups, etc.

It's your responsibility to survive in Brawl too. It's not like Sakurai comes down from the heavens and prevents you from following up on your opponent after you hit them. Just because it takes more work to kill people doesn't mean Brawl is meddling. It's just different. Saying this is hurting your stance because it makes you seem super biased and uninformed.

 

[Vkrm]

It's pretty jarring to have hitstun just be cancelled for free. When you get hit in brawl the game does it's best to bring it back to neutral, some characters/strats can make it some what difficult but the unintuitive hitstun cancel/ crippled mobility really stacked the odds.

As far as the inescapable combos in melee I ll just say


.....brawl has....


.....non tumble DI.


And true 0-death cg to grab releases.

 

[Delta-cod]

The odds are still in the person who landed the hit's favor. Even if they manage to land, they're probably on a platform/near the ledge, meaning they're not at true "neutral".

The grab releases only plague a small subset of characters.

Brawl's inescapable combos really only work at low percents anyways. I can't honestly think of any combos that work past like, 40 or 50%.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

The odds are still in the person who landed the hit's favor. Even if they manage to land, they're probably on a platform/near the ledge, meaning they're not at true "neutral".

Hell, if you air dodge, you have frames where you can't do anything afterward and are therefore not at neutral even if you canceled your hitstun.

 

[Vkrm]

The fact that brawl has any inesscapeables at all helps out my argument. That piss aint in melee. If you score a hit in the ad recovery what really happens? You get the the chance to do it again....

WHAT A GOOD GAME!!!!!

If this is what people are referring to when they claim brawl is a more cerebral game then melee, I'm not impressed. Not at all.
I play chess, not checkers home girl.