"The Zone" by HugS; Weekly Falcon Zone Discussion Week 4 - Wario

[t3h n00b]

CP's like stage CP's?

I CP japes and BF. Always all the time. That's it....xD

Anyway, I was talking about this a lot today with my metaknight maining friend, and I think the middle of the stage is a place you'd want to stay; away from ledges as to not get gimped to hell. In the middle of the stage...maybe in Utilt or Dtilt range.

We pretty much have the zones for each falcon and metaknight figured out, but being more specific (since this particular zone discussion ends on monday)...

Where do we want to be the entire match? What area of the stage do we want to make a conscious effort to stay around, and also, which zone do we want metaknight in for the majority of the match?

Where are we trying to box him in?

Japes and BF sound like pretty good CPs to me, although I personally don't play on Japes much. I don't think MK can abuse platforms to the extent of the rest of the sword-using characters, but I could be wrong. And yeah, I agree that the best place to stay is the middle of the stage, but I think anywhere where you are closer to the middle of the stage than MK (meaning MK being on/near the ledge is far better than Falcon being on the edge), is okay. I don't think Falcon can really box MK in, or at least not nearly as much as MK can manipulate Falcon's zoning.

In terms of the weekly thing, it's your thread, but when I started to do the weekly moveset discussion, I realized that it doesn't really take a whole week to discuss most moves. So if you want to do this weekly, that's fine, but it could help to just close discussions when you think they are finished (possibly more or less than a week), and move on to the next character.

 

[PartyHatPikaChu]

In terms of the weekly thing, it's your thread, but when I started to do the weekly moveset discussion, I realized that it doesn't really take a whole week to discuss most moves. So if you want to do this weekly, that's fine, but it could help to just close discussions when you think they are finished (possibly more or less than a week), and move on to the next character.

No. Only move on the next character when everyone (both falcon mains and the mains of the character that is discussed.) agrees.
Input from other boards is required, too, as they know their character best.

Again, stop trying to be who you aren't.

 

[Dragoomba]

Showing you guys this thread just in case it may help you out...

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=229253

I'm loving this, I think every OP should use these kind of graphs/simulations.

 

[t3h n00b]

I read over the first page of the matchup thread, it had some stuff that Falcon can do to counter MK's tornado and shuttle loop, if anyone would find that helpful.

No. Only move on the next character when everyone (both falcon mains and the mains of the character that is discussed.) agrees.
Input from other boards is required, too, as they know their character best.

Again, stop trying to be who you aren't.

I have no problem with criticism, but please read my post completely if you are going to quote it. I said it was his thread, and his choice. I suggested that when he thinks the discussion is complete, he could move on to the next character, rather than in one week regardless of how long or short it runs. I didn't tell him what to do, but you did.

 

[Iwan]

Updated guys.

This week: Snake.

go go go go go

 

[t3h n00b]

Good zones: Snake cyphering, Snake on the ledge, Snake above Falcon, both in the air (not sure though).

Neutral zones: umm...

Bad zones: Jab range (Snake's jabs are better, and his throws are great), on the ground after dthrow (not sure of the best way to escape the techchase), far away from Snake (you will get camped), standing on C4, anywhere in utilt or ftilt range.

 

[Iwan]

Yea, like I said in the OP, I think being below snake while he's in the air OR just plain being in the air is a good zone for falcon. Falcon's air game is better; it's faster and more unpredictable.

Also, I'll let you guys figure out how this applies to zones, but I use this really awesome (but ******** simple) strategy on snake every time I play one and it works great (It's done wonders against G-reg (I saw it done to him at C3 months ago; worked great), and Praxis even used it on DSF in a friendly he won using peach).

Early during a stock, grab snake>>up throw. From here, snake pretty much has two options: Either throw out a slow aerial which (since he hasn't gone too high off the ground because of low percents) will result in tons of landing lag....or airdodge and land, then attempt to sheild. If he throws out an aerial, wait for the landing lag, then grab again>>>up throw. If instead he decides to airdodge and land>>shield attempt....also grab him.

Basically, grab snake, up throw him, follow to his landing spot....rinse repeat, etc.

It's worked against some of the best snake's in the country for a reason; snake doesn't have too many options against it (also: this tactic works well on all characters to an extent). Credit to Rike for being the first one to post about it and actually use it.

Back to zoning...."when snake cyphers" isn't exactly a "zone", Teh Noob. But I see what you mean. Having snake somewhere near the edge would be ideal, considering his recovery is easy to knee, and even dair or aerial raptor boost (although I wouldnt' suggest RB for much).

So basically, having snake in an area where he needs to use his Cypher would be a good zone for falcon. In the air is also a good zone for falcon (snake's ground game is waaaaaaay too good), and perhaps being directly underneath snake as he's landing is a good zone as well?

 

[t3h n00b]

Basically, grab snake, up throw him, follow to his landing spot....rinse repeat, etc.

It's worked against some of the best snake's in the country for a reason; snake doesn't have too many options against it (also: this tactic works well on all characters to an extent). Credit to Rike for being the first one to post about it and actually use it.

Good point, I do it with a lot of characters without thinking, and Falcon Dive is often a good move to use if the Snake gets over a platform after uthrow, like on Battlefield or something. I guess in general exploiting Snake's slow air game like you said.

Back to zoning...."when snake cyphers" isn't exactly a "zone", Teh Noob. But I see what you mean. Having snake somewhere near the edge would be ideal, considering his recovery is easy to knee, and even dair or aerial raptor boost (although I wouldnt' suggest RB for much).

So basically, having snake in an area where he needs to use his Cypher would be a good zone for falcon. In the air is also a good zone for falcon (snake's ground game is waaaaaaay too good), and perhaps being directly underneath snake as he's landing is a good zone as well?

Yeah you described it much better than I did. And it's not a zone, but Snake cyphering low should be a kill for Falcon. A good Snake will be unpredictable and recover high or airdodge well, but a bad player or one forced to recover low should always eat a knee or have to airdodge and c4 recover. Bair stage spikes work too. I guess in general, Snake in midair is a good zone then, right?

I agree about being under Snake as he lands, does he really have options at all that close to the ground besides airdodge and buffered shield? So jab/grab should work easily in that case.

 

[Iwan]

Good point, I do it with a lot of characters without thinking, and Falcon Dive is often a good move to use if the Snake gets over a platform after uthrow, like on Battlefield or something. I guess in general exploiting Snake's slow air game like you said.



Yeah you described it much better than I did. And it's not a zone, but Snake cyphering low should be a kill for Falcon. A good Snake will be unpredictable and recover high or airdodge well, but a bad player or one forced to recover low should always eat a knee or have to airdodge and c4 recover. Bair stage spikes work too. I guess in general, Snake in midair is a good zone then, right?

I agree about being under Snake as he lands, does he really have options at all that close to the ground besides airdodge and buffered shield? So jab/grab should work easily in that case.

Yea, being underneath him is (I found out today) a GREAT position. Jab grab isn't as great as just grabbing though, because if he somehow spot dodges a jab and gets a tiny amount of time to get out one of HIS jabs, he's going to knock you away from him and into his good zone.

Just grabbing when he lands is safer imo. Jab grab is useful under the normal everyday "I should probably jabgrab at *insert situation here*" situations. If he throws out an aerial and lands with landing lag though? Jabgrab, for sure. But good snakes won't do that.

Good snake's will either airdodge and try and land somewhere safe (you should be able to punish), or if they're high enough, drop C4 to make you gtfo. lol. Even still, them dropping C4 in the air only leaves them open for a whole second in the air.

Being underneath snake is definitely a good zone for falcon. I played a pretty good snake today, some kid from George Mason University who talks tons of trash. He wanted a money match so i gave him one ...beat him . His tag was "Fish"...lol. Anyway, he knew how to recover "the right way" with snake, and he did some pretty ridiculous s*** with grenades o_O, but I revolved the entire match around getting him up into the air.

It worked very well.

In the air and underneath snake are very good zones.

 

[talkingbeatles]

Okay... it may seem obvious, but in front of Snake is a BAD zone. Jab and ftilt kill anything you can throw out. And I think Snake's jab is about as fast as Falcons. It's frustrating as hell to deal with. Go in from the back(!) With bairs I'd say.
Of course under him is good. And really as long as Snake is in the air, I think you've got the advantage. Snake is tall enough that you approach with uairs and dairs, I think.

 

[Iwan]

Not enough discussion to keep this moving guys.

No discussion.
No thread.

Just throwing it out there; up to you guys whether this lives or dies.

 

[Player-3]

Iwan i want to ditto you..itd be fun

Cpnsidering u me and skip are really the only rep falcon has in the states

 

[Iwan]

Iwan i want to ditto you..itd be fun

Cpnsidering u me and skip are really the only rep falcon has in the states

I'll play you online some time on saturday (im off from work that day) if I decide to not go to pega chris' in MD this weekend. It's a long drive but...the MM money is so good.

cocky snake players ROFL xD. Easy money...

I sort of hate online play though; not because of the lag, but because my connection is.
god.
awful.

It's awful. lol.

random side note: ARS is a great falcon player who lives (sort of) in my area. He does decent with falcon in tournament. He plays like such a b**** though....xD

*runs*
*runs*
*runs*

Waits for you to be up in the air *UP AIR UP AIR UP AIR KNEEEEE death*.

^ that's seriously what it's like. hahaha.

 

[t3h n00b]

Not enough discussion to keep this moving guys.

No discussion.
No thread.

Just throwing it out there; up to you guys whether this lives or dies.

What else are you looking for? More people posting, or a back-and-forth discussion? This is a good thread, I'll post if that will keep it alive, but I don't really have anything else that comes to mind about Snake. You can always end the character's discussion early and move on to the next one before the week is up if you think you have enough information.

Iwan i want to ditto you..itd be fun

Cpnsidering u me and skip are really the only rep falcon has in the states

Come to MD I went to one tourney, I should have known better going Falcon vs Inui though lol

I'm trying to get to another one, but it has to be really close so it probably won't be for awhile.

 

[Player-3]

I cAnt go oos, especially md xD

Nor do i own a wii, imjust saying sometime..

I want to test my moves

 

[Iwan]

Meh, i have more stuff on snake for sure, but I crave more posters .

I'll keep it alive, I was just threatening the falcon masses with the frightening possibility of me shutting this down. Oh noes.

I think being above snake is bad; up air is fast to come out and strong as hell, not to mention we all know what his up tilt can do -_-. Having snake below you also potentially leaves you open to grabs when you land, and that's a bad thing (snake's grab game is hax. lol). Being above snake seems like a bad zone.

Even though we already discussed it earlier in the thread (i think?), being about a falco phantasm apart from snake is a terrible zone for falcon; it's asking for nikita shenanigans, nade camping and wave bouncing games, a mortar slide approach, etc.

This sounds lame, but I actually think being about an Ike Fsmash away from snake is a great zone for falcon; too close for projectiles to be highly effective, but too far for tilts or AAA to be a big factor as well. From here, falcon can mix it up.

Also, another random off topic side note ......my next BIG tournament is genesis.

Someone come and rep falcon with me

 

[t3h n00b]

Even though we already discussed it earlier in the thread (i think?), being about a falco phantasm apart from snake is a terrible zone for falcon; it's asking for nikita shenanigans, nade camping and wave bouncing games, a mortar slide approach, etc.

This sounds lame, but I actually think being about an Ike Fsmash away from snake is a great zone for falcon; too close for projectiles to be highly effective, but too far for tilts or AAA to be a big factor as well. From here, falcon can mix it up.

If you're holding a grenade as Falcon (I don't know if you're supposed to, I do that a lot though), you can do a jump-canceled throw and get almost from phantasm to Ike fsmash range. And I didn't try this specifically on Snake, but maybe dtilt would be a good move to use because of its knockback, getting Snake in the air above Falcon. I often catch characters like Mario in two consecutive dtilts, and Snake is heavier and has a slower air game, which works against him in that situation.

I was in training mode as Snake today for a bit, and you probably knew this before, but even though it has an insane disjoint in front of him, utilt can't hit grounded opponents behind Snake. So maybe behind him is a neutral zone? I don't know if it's been discussed before. He always has ftilt, but rolling behind him doesn't seem to be a terrible idea like it is with most characters, but I guess it depends how predictable it is and what Snake is doing.

 

[Iwan]

^ teh noob, being behind snake is still a bad zone, I tried it out after reading your post and his Ftilt still comes out hell fast after Utilt, or at least fast enough to clang with your jab 90 percent of the time -_-

I promise I'll update this tomorrow.

I'm just feeling way, way too lazy today and feel like lurking...xD

 

[tocador]

Is directly above snake a BAD or Neutral zone?

I mean, i know he have mortars and Utilt, but you can always Airdodge or Dair/Nair to punish some moves cant you?

Cause im thinking you can just jump above him, wait for that Utilt/Usmash, punish/dodge and grab him to throw him to the air!

Yeah or maybe being above him is just pure ****, i duno, you tell me =X!

 

[talkingbeatles]

Is directly above snake a BAD or Neutral zone?

I mean, i know he have mortars and Utilt, but you can always Airdodge or Dair/Nair to punish some moves cant you?

Cause im thinking you can just jump above him, wait for that Utilt/Usmash, punish/dodge and grab him to throw him to the air!

Yeah or maybe being above him is just pure ****, i duno, you tell me =X!

I'd say it's a bad zone. Snake has the advantage when you're above him, and he has the advantage once you've landed next to him as well, whether it be in front of him, or behind him. Directly above snake is a scary place to be. Especially if you're on a platform.

 

[F5Hazardousdoc]

Uthrowing snake will only work till he figures out to double jump away, after that he can lagless nair or drop c4 and nades to cover his landing. Thats when you uair him XD

 

[Player-3]

Uthrowing snake will only work till he figures out to double jump away, after that he can lagless nair or drop c4 and nades to cover his landing. Thats when you uair him XD

not if you mindgame him with dtaunt

 

[Iwan]

Uthrowing snake will only work till he figures out to double jump away, after that he can lagless nair or drop c4 and nades to cover his landing. Thats when you uair him XD

It works at lower percents, but I'm not going to guarantee that it works to *insert percent here* every single time. It's simply something that catches a lot of snake players off guard and that, from my experience, they aren't sure how to deal with at first (seriously, who up throw chains people....xD).

Update tomorrow...ummmm........night.

ish.

ishness.

 

[F5Hazardousdoc]

It works at lower percents, but I'm not going to guarantee that it works to *insert percent here* every single time. It's simply something that catches a lot of snake players off guard and that, from my experience, they aren't sure how to deal with at first (seriously, who up throw chains people....xD).

Update tomorrow...ummmm........night.

ish.

ishness.

I'm thinking one uthrow at most. Don't use things that are blindingly easy to avoid, focus more on hard to dodge opportunities. Condition a snake player you fight to hate landing from aerials, and you'll find snakes to use them less, letting you approach easier. Nair shuts down alot of falcons approach game after all... but if the falcon can trade blows/accurately predict them, the snake might lose confidence in the move. Either that or double jump them for lagless and look insanely telegraphed XD

 

[talkingbeatles]

Uthrowing snake will only work till he figures out to double jump away, after that he can lagless nair or drop c4 and nades to cover his landing. Thats when you uair him XD

not if you mindgame him with dtaunt

This seems like it could do something...
I need to use dtaunt against Snake more. I just don't know where. Falcon has so many bad zones when fighting him.

 

[Iwan]

I'm thinking one uthrow at most. Don't use things that are blindingly easy to avoid, focus more on hard to dodge opportunities. Condition a snake player you fight to hate landing from aerials, and you'll find snakes to use them less, letting you approach easier. Nair shuts down alot of falcons approach game after all... but if the falcon can trade blows/accurately predict them, the snake might lose confidence in the move. Either that or double jump them for lagless and look insanely telegraphed XD

Oh, one up throw? Absolutely not, lol.

You may have trouble believing something like this would work, but it really is great against snake.

Maybe you missed the part where this worked against DSF and the s*** blew his f*****g mind. xD

It works better than what you might think my friend

 

[F5Hazardousdoc]

Maybe I just know what to expect then, seeing as I use falcon quite a bit XD

Its like fighting luigi, he'll take the first match by shock and awe.

 

[Iwan]

updated with snake's zones.

New character tomorrow sometime. haha.

 

[talkingbeatles]

Bumping this because it needs bumping.

(!)

 

[Iwan]

Sorry for the super late update guys, I was busy writing my new article for All is Brawl. it was due today and I just turned it in, so technically it's like...an hour and a half late -_-

But I got it done

Updated for discussion on marth :D

I think having marth in the air ABOVE US is a good zone; we can use Up tilt, Up air, even Up B...and marth's down air isn't really a threat at all.

Other than that, I'll let you guys get going on discussion until I throw in my own two cents .

go go go

 

[t3h n00b]

I really can't think of any other good zones against Marth, since zoning is his thing -_-
He's weak to juggling in general because of his laggy dair, but otherwise, he outspaces, outranges, and outzones Falcon. Ok, jab range is good imo. Marth has great grab range and followups, but his jab can't cancel into anything, and is frame 3 or 4 I think. Point-blank range is bad for Marth too. But I can't think of a third zone that Falcon has the advantage in, I don't know if it exists.

 

[Steel]

Point blank and underneath him.

 

[talkingbeatles]

I agree that jab range and underneath him, in the air of course,
are both good zones for Falcon against Marth.

Also... (give all of your thoughts on this...) I think there might be a zone in front of Falcon that qualifies as "good" if Marth is in the air. I'm thinking of an area that is just out of Marth's fair range, and just in Falcons stutter stepped fsmash.
Maybe it's only neutral.

Everything else though is probably bad. Marth is a hard match up for Falcon.

 

[t3h n00b]

I don't think a zone like that exists. You can say a stutter stepped fsmash has more range than Marth's fair, but it also moves his hitbox closer to Marth.

 

[Darxmarth23]

Launch him up to make opportunities.

He sucks below.

 

[Zeallyx]

He sucks below.

^lol.

But yeah, what Steel2nd said, point blank and underneath him.

 

[Player-3]

if you can get into a marths face, hes doinitwrong


below marth is quite a nice area

 

[Darxmarth23]

^lol.

But yeah, what Steel2nd said, point blank and underneath him.

Wow. Just fricken wow.

if you can get into a marths face, hes doinitwrong


below marth is quite a nice area

Like you said, marth will notice something is wrong, and then punish, or retreat accordingly.

And that bottom sentence is just waiting to get butchered by an idiot.

 

[talkingbeatles]

Is there anything more to say about Falcon and his zones regarding Marth?

 

[t3h n00b]

I doubt it, I brought up the point-blank zone right after Iwan's post and it was just being repeated. OoS Dolphin Slash is good though, that's something to be careful of when in jab range. Let's see if Iwan has something to add or wants to move on, I guess.