the way things may go in the future

[saviorslegacy]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=164675
Really interesting IMO.

After fighting off the idea of "WTF! items are for n00bs" I came to realize that items may not be that bad.
People look at items as if they are stupid and cheap and take no skill to use. I believe other wise.

I want you all to look at Peach and Diddy. They both use items, and might I add very effectively.
So we have two characters right there that use items and aren't considered n00by. Add Snake, TL, Link and ZSS and you have item using characters.

You may think "yeah but you are talking about weak items or items that aren't there for a while." Well, those character are kinda greedy and only share items with themselves unless you are lucky enough to catch such items.
Here, everyone gets their fair share of items. You can counter anything they try and give you problems with as well.
All of the legal items are not broken. In fact, it would make the game more combo friendly if we had items turned on. Just look at some of my idea's for Sheik.


Snadbag
lol

Food
lol

Warp Star
Not really much to say here. This item is exteremly deadly, and easy to get out of the way.
If the foe gets this we just DACUS to safety.

Bunny Hood
If Sheik has the bunny hood we have follow ups on our throws.
Sheik with a bunny hood also takes care of our recovery problem.

Beam Sword
Sheik is epic with the beam sword.
This could help our spacing game, keep IC's off of our back, keep Pika back, help our ledge guard game and it can be used to combo with.

Star Rod
It would help our spacing game same as the Beam Sword.
It would also allow us to combo.

Super Scope
Not really much use.
People can DI into the bullrts and get us. @-@
Best used to combo with.

Fire Flower
I have no commet except for spacing. -_-

Motion Sensor Bomb
We can destry these with our Needle's.
We can also use them to combo, and to control the stage some.

Freezie
C-c-c-c-c-ombooooooO
nough said
It would also help us off stage.

Smoke Ball
Helps us with our Ninja skillz.

Pit Fall
Spike set up to this TBH.
It also might give us a set up to tipper USmash on some characters.

Mr. Staturn
This little guy is like combo king.
He might even give us a tipper set up.
drop Mr. Saturn> DI over the player head> Nair them into Mr. Saturn> Hyphen Smash

Green Shell
lol... COMBO!... and spacing.
Would could also chase it with DACUS.

Banana Peel
Remember that lock InnocentRoads showed us?
Well, we have use of it now (or at least more of a use).

Franklin Badge
Hey, I'm all for more protection....

Screw Attack
It's like a combo thing. Who doesn't want a hit box while jumping?




If a Sheik player says they think items are ********, then you are giving up a huge opertunity to combo and give use the advantage.
Using items in Smash would be the equivilent of finding a new glitch.
The meta game would super advance from this.

 

[East]

If a Sheik player says they think items are ********, then you are giving up a huge opertunity to combo and give use the advantage.
Using items in Smash would be the equivilent of finding a new glitch.
The meta game would super advance from this.

If this is the case I will gladly give up that opportunity. We're not trying to find a new glitch. Someone please correct me if this statement is not 100% correct, because I'm pretty sure it's not; items lessen the amount of skill that we competitive players feel should be needed to win a match. Let's say you and someone are playing a match and it comes down to last hit, last stock. They just so happen to get a beam sword to fall right above them, they grab it and chuck it at you, killing you. Does that truly prove who was the most skilled?

We're not out to find a glitch like wavedashing to make this game more competitive. If thats the case we probably would have started playing with hacked versions of the game long ago.

 

[stealth3654]

People usually don't like items because of the randomness of where the items will appear. One player could be put into a bad position, but then a warp star lands next to them. They can just grab the warp star and get out, resetting the positions.

 

[Tristan_win]

Since I've started playing smash 1v1 I've never liked items and to this day I still don't.

Also items add more luck to the game and that's bad, we want as little luck involved as possible so that skill can be more easily seen. Sure using items does take skill as well as avoiding them but because of how they appear on the stage I don't think they should ever be legal.

 

[Judo777]

not to mention some characters are just better than others at using items aka peach and diddy kong. also items can encourage camping in which a less skilled player will just runaway until he can maybe get a good item. Plus give snake a pitfall or motion sensor bomb and oh great now there are 4 places we cant stand at any time on the field.

 

[-Mars-]

I never liked items even when I played SSB way back in the 90's. Items are gay and I don't know why this subject keeps getting brought up. It's never going to change.................actually I take that back.........for those people that want to play with items they should feel free to host their own tournaments and see if anyone would show up and pay an entry fee.

 

[Palpi]

lulzworthy.

 

[My Cat Owns]

Nice troll, OP. But it will do you no good.

 

[saviorslegacy]

If this is the case I will gladly give up that opportunity. We're not trying to find a new glitch. Someone please correct me if this statement is not 100% correct, because I'm pretty sure it's not; items lessen the amount of skill that we competitive players feel should be needed to win a match. Let's say you and someone are playing a match and it comes down to last hit, last stock. They just so happen to get a beam sword to fall right above them, they grab it and chuck it at you, killing you. Does that truly prove who was the most skilled?

We're not out to find a glitch like wavedashing to make this game more competitive. If thats the case we probably would have started playing with hacked versions of the game long ago.

A glitch (unless everyone benefited equally from it) or item play would put they game in order.
It would solve MANY of our problems with this game.

ie planking
camping
combo issue's
approaching
and killing

The lower tier characters all suffer from one or more of those.
The only thing that items don't fix is recovery, but it helps it (green turtle shells and throwing an item as you recover)

People usually don't like items because of the randomness of where the items will appear. One player could be put into a bad position, but then a warp star lands next to them. They can just grab the warp star and get out, resetting the positions.

That reason would help you if someone like MK was giving you pressure.

Since I've started playing smash 1v1 I've never liked items and to this day I still don't.

Also items add more luck to the game and that's bad, we want as little luck involved as possible so that skill can be more easily seen. Sure using items does take skill as well as avoiding them but because of how they appear on the stage I don't think they should ever be legal.

Items in the original two broke the game.

Luck nothing.
It is luck to get a Bomb-omb, blow your foe with a blast box, use a smart bomb, get a fan, get a Final Smash, an Assist Trophy or a Poke-ball.
The items listed take more skill than luck, those items are hard to be cheap with when a foe knows how to deal with it.

Can you grab throw items? A: yes
no luck

If anything the game would become more technical. People would start to *jump instant air dodge at the ground* more in order to catch items.
Items in Brawl don't
People just get a bad taste in their mouth when they think about items because the are used to Melee, SSB or other people saying it is gay.

not to mention some characters are just better than others at using items aka peach and diddy kong. also items can encourage camping in which a less skilled player will just runaway until he can maybe get a good item. Plus give snake a pitfall or motion sensor bomb and oh great now there are 4 places we cant stand at any time on the field.

How does it encourage camping?
If anything it DESTROYS camping.

If one person camps its like sitting down range from a sniper and not moving.
People will throw items at them force them off stage, to roll, to grab their item (and thus be in the air) or to shield it and take shield stun. Someone could easily follow up on someone just hold shield.

That and, items will be on low. This ruins the idea of constantly running around unless you are Sonic, then again, Sonic better not turn into a ball cuz that can be punished.

I never liked items even when I played SSB way back in the 90's. Items are gay and I don't know why this subject keeps getting brought up. It's never going to change.................actually I take that back.........for those people that want to play with items they should feel free to host their own tournaments and see if anyone would show up and pay an entry fee.

They have already hosted item tournies.
I know that Sethlon, SK92 and Ken was in it.

If all of the pro's accepted items and tournies said yes to them because SBR passed that it is legal, then what?

I agree that some items are EXTREMELY gay and take no skill to use.
The items that are legal actually take skill.
About as much skill as it takes to use a Bomb or a Banana.

lulzworthy.

Why, cuz it is talking about something they are trying to make legal?

Nice troll, OP. But it will do you no good.

This is not trolling. I am bringing something to light to have a discussion with everyone.
thread > troll




ps I had the same opinion as all of you two days ago.
Look at the second post of this thread. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=247357
After seeing everyone reaction... I decided to take a second look at item use.
So I opened up to the new idea.
I would suggest the same from you guys... but then again all I can do is make a suggestion.


Instead of looking at item use as gay. Look at it as a band aid for Brawl.
Look at all of the benefits and non benefits. Which is out weighed?

 

[My Cat Owns]

Wow you were serious? Oh God.

The reason items aren't normally enabled is because of the absolutely random areas they drop in and what they can be. Just because diddy and peach start with items doesn't mean to put items on during the game. Their items don't give you 200% speed or an instant KO

 

[saviorslegacy]

Wow you were serious? Oh God.

The reason items aren't normally enabled is because of the absolutely random areas they drop in and what they can be. Just because diddy and peach start with items doesn't mean to put items on during the game. Their items don't give you 200% speed or an instant KO

Every item that I listed are the legal ones.
Name one of them that can KO that is not easily countered?


There are many things that are RNDM in this game.
In a 3 minute match the items should be spread evenly.If not then there are counters for each and every legal item.


The sense that you and others are making is like this:
"Shielding should be banned because there is no counter for it and attack don't go through it."
When in fact a grab fixes this problem.
Same thing with items.
An air dodge to grab items fixes the problem.

Whoever is the most skilled at using items, using item defense, spacing, comboing, KOing and recovery will win.
It will not be whoever camps with items the best will win.

If someone does figure out how to camp with items it will not work on every character and will be put into the same category as chain camping.
That and it will be banned.

So what do we have to lose?

 

[My Cat Owns]

It's not so much the items that are so random, it's just when they appear/where.

 

[n88]

@People who hate this thread

I strongly recommend not just bashing items and item-tourneys. There has been a lot of pro-item sentiment lately, and the number of items tournaments would increase. In which case it certainly doesn't hurt to have a thread in which to talk about items.

I would recomend putting something in the OP about the Screw Attack's fantastic gimping abilities.

 

[saviorslegacy]

@People who hate this thread

I strongly recommend not just bashing items and item-tourneys. There has been a lot of pro-item sentiment lately, and the number of items tournaments would increase. In which case it certainly doesn't hurt to have a thread in which to talk about items.

I would recomend putting something in the OP about the Screw Attack's fantastic gimping abilities.

When I get the time I am going to research this.

Items= second from top on my to do list

 

[Judo777]

SL to answer your question its quite simple. It encourages camping because if a player is losing badly he can simply run away and camp until an item appears and then try to grab it. The other problem is that things like bombs appear at random and therefore you might be in midswing of an attack and the game just decides that it didnt want u to win so it spawns a bomb on you! (obviously i dont think the game is out for you lol)

 

[East]

A glitch (unless everyone benefited equally from it) or item play would put they game in order.
It would solve MANY of our problems with this game.

ie planking
camping
combo issue's
approaching
and killing

The lower tier characters all suffer from one or more of those.
The only thing that items don't fix is recovery, but it helps it (green turtle shells and throwing an item as you recover)

It is not our job as players to balance a game. It is also not the job of players to forcefully make the game into something it's not [ie. Melee]. If you are looking for a glitch to fix all of this, it can be inferred that you may think the game is not competitive-worthy.

 

[saviorslegacy]

SL to answer your question its quite simple. It encourages camping because if a player is losing badly he can simply run away and camp until an item appears and then try to grab it. The other problem is that things like bombs appear at random and therefore you might be in midswing of an attack and the game just decides that it didnt want u to win so it spawns a bomb on you! (obviously i dont think the game is out for you lol)

While they are running around trying to camp they will have items being thrown into they're face.
This tactic isn't valid.

ps read the item list
bombs are banned

It is not our job as players to balance a game. It is also not the job of players to forcefully make the game into something it's not [ie. Melee]. If you are looking for a glitch to fix all of this, it can be inferred that you may think the game is not competitive-worthy.

What if items where there to balance the game.
All we are doing is taking advantage of this balancing option that the creators made.

 

[Zankoku]

The developers of the game did not intend for any balance beyond "without a doubt broken" seeing as how Brawl was not intended to be a competitive game, and if there were any balance to be done they likely would've focused on FFA balance, not 1v1.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

^^ Yes. Items do take SOME skill but a lot of the stronger ones don't. Anyway, items WILL help solve the camping and planking problems. In the long run, however, I think the items will make the game EVEN LESS BALANCED than it is now.

Certain items can be abused in all the wrong ways.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gEOzGX6OFc

Note that this all with Ganon. Imagine what a better character can do with these items.

 

[saviorslegacy]

The developers of the game did not intend for any balance beyond "without a doubt broken" seeing as how Brawl was not intended to be a competitive game, and if there were any balance to be done they likely would've focused on FFA balance, not 1v1.

So that makes it wrong that we are trying to unbreak Brawl by using items?

^^ Yes. Items do take SOME skill but a lot of the stronger ones don't. Anyway, items WILL help solve the camping and planking problems. In the long run, however, I think the items will make the game EVEN LESS BALANCED than it is now.

Certain items can be abused in all the wrong ways.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gEOzGX6OFc

Note that this all with Ganon. Imagine what a better character can do with these items.

I am seriously starting to think that no one reads the banned list of items.
The *BROKEN* items are banned.

Yah, just imagine how combo'y everyone will become.

 

[Zankoku]

So that makes it wrong that we are trying to unbreak Brawl by using items?

Brawl is broken?

Oh, it doesn't have enough glitches and techs for you to be happy, of course it's broken.

 

[My Cat Owns]

If you go to a tourney to measure skill, then you want to add some random factor in that could easily turn the tide of a game (Edgeguard with freezie? Bunnyhood recovery?), the item didn't make you a better player. It was just luck.

I don't know how else to put it. It's just not competitive.

 

[Judo777]

SL you said the items will be set to low so there shouldn't be a whole lot of items on the map much less are all the items useable multiple times so in fact they can run especially if its a larger stage like japes and if u throw ur item at them they only have to dodge once then u dont have an item any more and they can wait for something like a warp star or star rod to get a large advantage. Not to mention some items will seriously shut down charcters like the IC's who as long as u are standing on a pit fall space u cant be chain grabbed.

 

[Judo777]

Oh and also in the video of ganondorf if u didnt see, if he has a beam sword he can infinite sonic and game and watch from a flame choke straight into a smash so if u get flame choked u lose.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Brawl is broken?

Oh, it doesn't have enough glitches and techs for you to be happy, of course it's broken.

Well that was a smart comment since people have tried to ban MK, planking and infinite's.

If you go to a tourney to measure skill, then you want to add some random factor in that could easily turn the tide of a game (Edgeguard with freezie? Bunnyhood recovery?), the item didn't make you a better player. It was just luck.

I don't know how else to put it. It's just not competitive.

You would get lucky to see those items.
You have them set to low. Thus you don't see a whole lot of items.

The freezie will make you fly up before you fall down.
All the freezie will do is provide follow ups.

What's so wrong with a bunny hood recovery?

SL you said the items will be set to low so there shouldn't be a whole lot of items on the map much less are all the items useable multiple times so in fact they can run especially if its a larger stage like japes and if u throw ur item at them they only have to dodge once then u dont have an item any more and they can wait for something like a warp star or star rod to get a large advantage. Not to mention some items will seriously shut down charcters like the IC's who as long as u are standing on a pit fall space u cant be chain grabbed.

Isn't running away like that called stalling and thus banned?
Running around waiting for items= pit running around using arrows
Except Pit can use arrow after arrow after arrow very fact compared to item spawn rate.
We should ban Pit.

Hey check it out.. no more infinites from the IC's.

Oh and also in the video of ganondorf if u didnt see, if he has a beam sword he can infinite sonic and game and watch from a flame choke straight into a smash so if u get flame choked u lose.

*edit you post next time

I couldn't watch the whole vid. My CPU rebelled.
I was able to see enough to see that he was using illegal items though.


I you guys want to continue arguing over wether items are valid or not go here. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=164675

The fight for making item legal in Brawl is not mine.
I just stated that I think it would help unbreak most problems and would give characters more combo's.
So I brought what OTHERS have been talking about here along with my input on how Sheik can benefit from this.This thread is now dedicated to finding new ways to use the legal items in Brawl.
Post if you want to help, and I'll say it again. Go here if you want to argue: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=164675

 

[Zankoku]

Well that was a smart comment since people have tried to ban MK, planking and infinite's.

And you don't go to tournaments. Instead you read random rantings of various low-level players complaining about Meta Knight, planking, and infinites. Incidentally, giving Meta Knight, a fast-running character with a good dash attack and glide toss, access to items seems to be the last solution to this "problem." On the other hand, I can't say I see such a major problem at all.

Do you really think Brawl's the only competitive game that has people going "ban this" or "that's broken?"

 

[My Cat Owns]

The freezie sets up for a dairspike :\

 

[saviorslegacy]

And you don't go to tournaments. Instead you read random rantings of various low-level players complaining about Meta Knight, planking, and infinites. Incidentally, giving Meta Knight, a fast-running character with a good dash attack and glide toss, access to items seems to be the last solution to this "problem." On the other hand, I can't say I see such a major problem at all.

Do you really think Brawl's the only competitive game that has people going "ban this" or "that's broken?"

Almost every argument I have comes down to your BS.
Just because you are in communist China doesn't mean you have to let it leak onto the internet.

Please at least act like you are a mod. k?

And no, I do not think all of what you said is true. If I did I would be going high tier.
Sheik has options to take care of everything, except CG's. Physics are just against her right there.

When I mention Brawl is broke I am talking about how unbalanced the character's are.
Now if you wish to continue fighting against items follow one of the links that I posted above.

Unless you plan on helping Sheiks meta game with items, don't post here.


Now please stop flame baiting and flaming. It is very unprofessional and makes us both look bad.
Let me say it again, I am done. I hate this stupid internet arguing.

The freezie sets up for a dairspike :\

so?

 

[Zankoku]

Yeah okay, Michigan is totally in China.

If you really think what you think, go ahead. You won't see me here any more.

 

[My Cat Owns]

The freezie sets up for a dairspike :\

So it's a free kill so long as you have any aim at all

 

[saviorslegacy]

So it's a free kill so long as you have any aim at all

If you get a freezie every time, play a character that can spike and your opponent can't DI the hit/grab the freezie then yeah, I guess it is a free kill.
I would be more worried about PK Fire> Dair from Ness since that will happen more and you can't catch PK Fire.