The Wall - Game End.... no one wins?

[No Hetero]

1.

2. What's your read on Seph?
3. What did you think of Seph's play D2?

1. I know, right? That hits me as a solid thought process. JTB WAS paying attention to the modvotes (FML unlynchable) so I'm not sure why he wouldn't just finish off the game here. JTB, I am going to hate you forever if you're dragging this game longer than it needs to be. Can you please explain how your read on Throne progressed? You went from making him unlynchable to trying to buttannihilate him with modvotes 2 Days in a row.

2. Town.

3. It annoyed me. Offhand I remember him switching on July and saying FML was bussing him which I found bizarre. I don't think that's scummy in itself though, I have seen Seph have a tendency to look for bussing like in PM64 with J. But now that I've typed this out, I'll take a look at that push of his now that I have the weekend to give this a deeper look.

Y'know, July and Raz had similar tendencies that I found interesting. They both IMMEDIATELY latched onto ****riding Throne cuz they knew he was atrocious enough to singlehandedly win them the game. They both also threw out me and Seph as their strongest townreads, which makes me think they were trying to buddy him as well.

I think it'll be hilarious if JTB one-man alpha strikes us btw. Counting this as a win in that case due to him being the marshy role.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

Ok, cool.

I think Seph is lying about having investigated July, 2 reasons:

#1 July didn't claim the individual wincon in her role PM until Day 2. When she was staring down the barrel of a lynch, and at the potential of having been investigated, why would she lie about what her individual wincon was, given it's nothing particularly scummy?

#2 I remember Inferno claiming July was lying, and then when she claimed the individual wincon she actually had in her role pm, he backed off. The specifics of what he says are interesting- and there's a very clear implication that July is not lying about the win condition in her role PM.

Here's the posts for reference;

That's because it's not MY individual wincon I was originally given. Does "Predict the player in the Night phase who will be lynched during the next Day phase" sound more like the wincon you thought I was lying about when I claimed (even though I was pretty clear that wasn't my OS given wincon but whatevs)? Still not a great wincon but it is what it is. Also, I picked myself as the lynch for toDay, so I'll end up fulfilling that individual wincon even if I am lynched.

You just said your wincon was lynch Kary by D3. Now you say its predict the lynch. Although I know what your win-con was I find the lynch Kary win-con as a lie.

July's win condition:
"Be the last vote on a lynch within 48 hours of the deadline."

Notice how Inferno only finds one part of the claim as a lie, you get me?

Bottom line, I don't believe the result Seph claims to have received.
This of course make me doubt the investigation, and Seph's play in pushing for a July lynch, and Seph.

I'm going to want to see a pretty good explanation before I look past this.

 

[No Hetero]

I'm bad at quoting.

Kary, what happened to your scumread on me from 1679?


Anyway, here's how and why DH is scum.

1) His wincon contains the line about also fulfilling his global win condition. This line is unnecessary with the global town wincon, because townies don't need to survive to win. Mafia wincons, however, are generally "survive and outnumber the remaining non-mafia players". This global wincon would clearly go against his individual wincon, hence the reminder within.

2) DH has multiple and alternate wincons, the second being the L-2 wincon. This makes sense as mafia, because of what I said in part 1. In the situation where DH is the sole surviving mafo (i.e. this situation right now), he can't fulfill the global mafia wincon (survive the game) and his indy wincon (don't survive the game). The alternate wincon provides a method for mafDH to win despite the other wincons conflicting.

3) What is DH doing right now? Not really much of anything. You could posit that he's not doing anything because he's not at L-2 yet.

4) Gheb, Vand and OS? Sounds like a solid scumteam


And let's talk JTB briefly as well: I don't think he's hit his individual wincon (hammer on a lynch or start the successful wagon). So the argument that scumJTB could have single-handedly won toDay isn't really valid.

 

[No Hetero]

/confirming

DH point 0.5) His play isn't very good and he's not answering questions, just popping in for survival shots.

 

[No Hetero]

/confirming

p.s. Seph, still interested in the back-and-forth with Kary.

 

[Handorin]

Hando, who would you lynch after DH on a town flip?.

2. Dark Horse
6. Kary
4. No Hetero (marshy/nabe)
13. JTB
7. Sephiroths Masamune
9. FullMetalLynch (rake/orbo)
Probably something like that.

Kary's case seems somewhat legit, but I'd like to provide a counter statement, featuring DH:

First of all, I think seph isn't lying, and that there must me some fancy wizardy **** going on. Why? The wincon that he DID get from me is spot-on verbatim. If he were lying, he would have to make this up, and I highly doubt that he would just be able to guess it perfectly.

@Kary- So, do you think he is lying about everything, or just about July?

 

[#HBC | Kary]

Kary, what happened to your scumread on me from 1679?

It's simmering, you're not my priority at the moment. I'm still watching how you move toDay, and I think whatever flip we get will be revealing.

@Kary- So, do you think he is lying about everything, or just about July?

He's not lying about everything, for instance he knows the exact wording of mine and DH's wincons.

Think he may be lying about his ability though, perhaps who he targetted, or that perhaps it's not him that had the ability. I don't know. Given that the game has a built in crumbing mechanic, it seems obvious that scum might try to fake results. We also don't know what abilities July/Raz had from their flips.

And then there's the whole... if Seph was a wincon cop, why did he imply he had a guilty on July at the start of D2? Was it necessary to out himself at the start of the Day?

So I think he may be lying about his role, yeah.
I hope that answers the question

 

[#HBC | Kary]

Wow, such debate, such activity

Voting Seph in ~ 12 hours

 

[No Hetero]

Comment on my DH reasoning.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

It's reasonable for DH to have that same dual wincon as town, to avoid him losing if he reaches Lylo
IMO it's not conclusive that he's scum

OS flavour being scum I can appreciate but it's still flavour

DH doing nothing... depends on the timing, as ever. Town DH should be posting already, IMO. Town DH should have some sort of direction, and yet, nothing.

In fairness, my reads permit both DH and Seph being scum.

/comments

 

[#HBC | Kary]

comment on my argument that seph is lying viz July, my #1842

 

[FullMetalLynch]

what in the world is going on this game ?

@mod : request prods

 

[FullMetalLynch]

Also pretty much for me , when we get that vote count, if JTB can vote on top of his ability , that means he is 100% cleared as town for me due to the fact he could have solo-alpha'd and won the game as scum

 

[No Hetero]

Also pretty much for me , when we get that vote count, if JTB can vote on top of his ability , that means he is 100% cleared as town for me due to the fact he could have solo-alpha'd and won the game as scum

What about what I said on JTB in 1843?


@Kary, Seph's not being lynched toDay. I think a Seph lynch would tie off a lot of loose ends; some interactions with Raz/July, the mirror between your roles. It would clear up my doubts on his wincon, and on his play such as how I haven't had a town vibe on him for ages, and haven't been on the same page as him once this game (Marshy has).

Your supposition seems pretty baseless; I don't think a Seph and July scumteam cooked up the idea that she would be lynched and that she would claim the wrong wincon, if that's what you're saying.

I didn't want to sink it really, because I'd like to hear a lot more from Seph. So keep talking to him, for sure. I'm content with DH or JTB lynches toDay, preferably the former.

 

[Shun Goku Satsu Rake]

he would have been his own hammer solo alphaing . so it would have been the same i would assume, and he would be technically starting the wagon with the mod votes from his ability

 

[FullMetalLynch]

he would have been his own hammer solo alphaing . so it would have been the same i would assume, and he would be technically starting the wagon with the mod votes from his ability

hydra quote

Also i've wanted DH, not only because I agree with some of what your saying, but also because even if scum has a kill, if DH is really unlynchable we only lose 1 possible townie(unless more people get mod killed)

 

[FullMetalLynch]

Also because of kantrips early D1 play which even when "explained" by playing scummy in order to get his individual win-cons was gross. Also i had some points about the interactions between kantrip and Raz , do you agree with any of them ?

(I can pull up the post if you need it)

 

[FullMetalLynch]

FML, don't reason based on the idea that scum has no kill. There's no way mafia's hopes rested on July and/or Raz being alive with a killing ability, look at their inactivity. And if Raz had encountered that situation, he'd have used his experience from Pokemaf not to misplay that role. Scum has a kill.

You kinda missed my point, but i did word it weirdly, let's say scum has a kill.
I still have JTB as town because he could have alpha's his way to victory alone, the only thing we don't know is if JTB can throw his own vote on top of the mod votes(i see no reason he couldn't ) he could have(by virtue of paying attention to the mod-votes) alpha'd the entire roster as scum, therefore JTB is town to me.

Why do you believe so strongly the last scum has a kill by the way, is it a gut thing or do you really believe scum targeted WtT and the mod-kill resolved first ?

How do you explain the no kill the first time in this situation , does it prove an inactive like DH at the time (IIRC) is scum ?

 

[FullMetalLynch]

I'm not saying scum doesn't have a kill entirely (although i believe lst scum doesn't), i'm saying that JTB is not scum regardless of scum having a kill or not.

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

Aiight.

The reason I haven't been posting much is that i've kind of hit a stop. That'll become apparet soon.

I don't see seph scum. Assuming he is lying, I don't see how his play fits together as scum at all (Have some sort of not-scummy wincon investigating ability-> Lie about july?). I don't see why he woul do this as scum.

I don't see kary scum, mainly due to 1758, which does a pretty good job of explaining Kary's thought process, which explains somethings that I called kary out for (Such as the push on NH D3)

I think NH is town.

That leaves JTB/FML. Right now, I would much rather go JTB (Inactive), but something caught my mind.

FML, how many scum do you think we have left?

 

[Shun Goku Satsu Rake]

Spoiler

It's funny because Hando confirmed me as town.
Just sayin

I want to say 1 scum left with 6 alive, but with OS i could see another indy kicking around which i am not really that concerned about at this exact moment, but i think i'll start exploring it more in depth.

Unless the scum team was july / raz and there were multiple indies in which case ****

What caught your eye though ?

 

[FullMetalLynch]

Spoiler

It's funny because Hando confirmed me as town.
Just sayin

I want to say 1 scum left with 6 alive, but with OS i could see another indy kicking around which i am not really that concerned about at this exact moment, but i think i'll start exploring it more in depth.

Unless the scum team was july / raz and there were multiple indies in which case ****

What caught your eye though ?

Good gorf
Hydra quote

Seriously , it's like i'm logged in as this then i move come back and suddenly i'm in my main again

 

[FullMetalLynch]

I apologize in advance OS, i'm not trying to post off hydra so much ;_:

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

Aiight.

FML, you've ben pushing me pretty much the entire day. However, in your 1836, you say that kary is scum. By the current page however, you're back to me. Why the brief switch to kary?

 

[#HBC | Kary]

Your supposition seems pretty baseless; I don't think a Seph and July scumteam cooked up the idea that she would be lynched and that she would claim the wrong wincon, if that's what you're saying.

#1 I think Seph is accusing July of lying about her wincon, when she didn't
#2 Even if Seph + July aren't aligned that doesn't clear Seph

Would like to hear Seph explain himself w.r.t. my #1842

and if he can't explain himself, I'd rather he went toDay

 

[Sephiroths Masamune]

role.

Catching up.

 

[Sephiroths Masamune]

Scum.

So, explain to me what YOU have pushed this game? I don't really follow how my thinking Soup is town, thinking July is scum, thinking NH is scum etc. constitutes 'not really pushing anything'. I've been about twice as vocal as most players in this game with what I think.
What have I pushed?
Soup day 1, July day 2, Handorin day 3 and Raziek day 4. I've pushed FML earlier on and Kantrip in the beginning.

You might've been vocal, but you haven't been comitted.

The things that you've quoted here aren't me fence-sitting, it's not me not having no opinion- it's me throwing my hands up at a line of questioning and saying 'there's no point pushing this any further'. Or should I just be leaping to conclusions on every issue?

I want you to reach points where I can hold you accountable for your opinion/conclusion, instead of touching upon it and then moving away from it before you have to commit.

So it did nothing, you were just all talk. What a ducking surprise.

Oh by all means tell me WHEN HAVE I BEEN ALL TALK?

So I noticed that once your gambit on DH didn't pan out in his lynch, you tried to tie JTB's ability around his neck without actually questioning it any further.

AKOSDASKDSAD
LET'S APPLY THIS TO EVERYONE
HEY GUYS, KARY FOUND OUT HE'S UP FOR LYNCH SO HE CC'D SEPH AND NOW HE WANTS HIM GONE AND DH, SETTING UP A DOUBLE LYNCH

HEY GUYS, LOOK AT NH, HE NEVER REALLY COMMITTED EARLY IN THE DAY AND TOOK THE FIRST OPPORTUNITY TO GET ON JTB AND NOW HE WANTS DARK HOUSE NOW THAT ITS APPARENT THAT JTB CAN'T GO

****. you. so. hard. I know I shouldn't have started this at 6am.

Sigh.


Anyone know if J and Pierre ever had anything happen?

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small break
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Ok, cool.

I think Seph is lying about having investigated July, 2 reasons:

#1 July didn't claim the individual wincon in her role PM until Day 2. When she was staring down the barrel of a lynch, and at the potential of having been investigated, why would she lie about what her individual wincon was, given it's nothing particularly scummy?

#2 I remember Inferno claiming July was lying, and then when she claimed the individual wincon she actually had in her role pm, he backed off. The specifics of what he says are interesting- and there's a very clear implication that July is not lying about the win condition in her role PM.

Here's the posts for reference;


Notice how Inferno only finds one part of the claim as a lie, you get me?

Bottom line, I don't believe the result Seph claims to have received.
This of course make me doubt the investigation, and Seph's play in pushing for a July lynch, and Seph.

I'm going to want to see a pretty good explanation before I look past this.

Are you ****ing kidding me? DO YOU EVEN READ MY POSTS?
I talked about this when I outed my gambit. I didn't know that I only saw 1 wincon until later, so when July said she had 2 wincons I thought I had a guilty. OF COURSE I would say she's lying.

Then a question I've been asking myself so often regarding your slot; WHAT ARE YOU GETTING AT?

In the end you even revert to thinking Inferno had the same winconcop too?
Maybe it was a day-based one, and July got cursed over night and I found the new wincon?
Maybe Inferno only finds the second wincon?

I don't ****ing know, but it's speculation. All I know is that I sent Overswarm the command to investigate July, and I got back that she needs to hammer within 48 hours of the day ending. GEEZ.


--------
break
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okay, sorry for the temper tantrum. I'm a bit stressed from real life stuff and it's late at night. Kary keeps talking about stuff that confuses me and I don't understand. I hardly have time for the game these days. All this is frustrating me and stressing me out, and more than that confusing me.
Sorry.
I... uh. Shall I replace out? Opinions?

Uhm.
Anyway, for now I'll catch up.

--------------------------------

FML you were talking about traitor a lot a while back, can you remind me why you are so convinced about a traitor?

Also, I voted Handorin because his post makes no sense.

His wincon
My global wincon is to have at least one member alive with this win condition when every member without this global win condition is dead

My wincon (copied from OP in case OS gets on me from PM quoting)
Global win condition - you are town aligned and win when all other threats to your faction are eliminated or nothing can stop this

That's weird.

Each night I may choose a player. Upon choosing, I lose the ability to vote. This person gains the ability to doublevote when voting for a person of my choosing.
I can only post when I'm dead, no voting, etc.

My ind wincon is to convince one person to lynch someone using my ability, while dead.

So he loses his vote when using his ability, but he already has none while he's dead. Meanwhile his wincon forces him to convince someone using his ability? Haven't really seen that so far iirc.

So yeah, I'm just voting Handorin and seeing what happens, but no vote count yet.


I have to sleep now for work tomorrow. I have no time tomorrow either. Maybe enough to skim and drop a vote, so if you need that leave big red letters or something. I'll be able to play tuesday.

 

[Sephiroths Masamune]

role.

let me take back that Kary hasn't been comitted. he has been, but just not in some situations where i'd like him to be.

okay that kept me awake. See you all tuesday and maybe tomorrow.

 

[FullMetalLynch]

1836 was orbo and me and him have been on Kary all game for scum, and pretty much for my reads i'm thinking it's between you/kary.

A lot of me and orbo's scum read on him stems from his early interactions with July and such, Orb could be more specific with what he didn't like but for me it was his interactions with July (you'll remember i was the first one all the way back on D1 / D2 IIRC to suggest kary/july bus . Just a lot of kary's play seems erratic.

So yeah there's more but me and orbo still want kary, I personally am just trying to cut through kary / seph's interactions more , Orbo likes seph more as town and only said Kary makes sense role wise.

Also Orbo picked out a good quote from Raz :

Originally Posted by Raziek
I don't think I can completely sell myself on Karyscum right now. I don't like the wallpost thing but I don't see malevolent intent behind it. If I were to vote him it'd simply be to wagon at this point. But let's make something more of it.

 

[FullMetalLynch]

Also Orbo feels like Kary whining every time someone has called him scum is almost reason enough to lynch him, on top of the other stuff we have had from before, i don't fully support the idea, but i can see the premise behind it.

 

[FullMetalLynch]

Also @Seph: Don't replace out IMO

 

[FullMetalLynch]

Unless your RL stuff is going to keep making it hard on you to play the way you want to / you feel like your RL stuff needs your 100% attention , basically up to you on that one.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

Also Orbo feels like Kary whining every time someone has called him scum is almost reason enough to lynch him, on top of the other stuff we have had from before, i don't fully support the idea, but i can see the premise behind it.

Let me try and make this clear. If I have been whining about you calling me scum, it is for exactly this reason: that you're being really dumb about this.

You've suggested that I'm scum because
a) Me vs July was a bus.
b) 'Connections' with Raz/July
c) My play overall has been haphazard.

That's fine. Except until I see anything significant to back these up, I'm just going to keep telling you you're an idiot.

For instance, I don't see what in my interactions with July would make you think we were aligned, and I don't know why you think scum would bus one another out of the gate D1

I don't know why, given that my play was 'suspicious' from the get-go, that anything Raz/July posted about me would be more than WIFOM, and them trying to drag my slot down with them.

And I can't say why, given that I explained my role and my pushes this game, you still think there's scum intent behind my actions, and not legitimate scum-hunting.

If you actually want to hang me up on the premise that 'every time we call him scum he complains' then that's fine, you sit on that, and I will continue to ignore 90% of what you say.

I am, of coure, 0% interested in you pushing me, because I'm told you're clear, and I know I'm town. Here is me telling you straight up- you're wasting your time.

If you have to, make a case on me, whatever. But really, make yourself useful instead.

 

[FullMetalLynch]

What defines useful for you Kary ?
Where should me and Orbo be looking then ?
What do you think of Seph's response to you ?

 

[FullMetalLynch]

Also kary you should be that i am actually trying to work with you to dispel my suspicion , roller coaster is pretty accurate a description of your play, IMO.

Now let's assume you & Seph are both town for a second. Who is scum NH/DH, why specifically does Kantrip's grimey D1 read townie to you ?

 

[FullMetalLynch]

I knew WTT wasn't mafia; and I'm wondering who is.

What made you know this ?

 

[#HBC | Kary]

Are you ****ing kidding me? DO YOU EVEN READ MY POSTS?
I talked about this when I outed my gambit. I didn't know that I only saw 1 wincon until later, so when July said she had 2 wincons I thought I had a guilty. OF COURSE I would say she's lying.

When July said she had 2 wincons, it was clear that one of them was not in her role PM, as it had been given to her by someone else.

If your role PM is anything like mine, it should have been perfectly obvious that you only receive the first wincon someone has.

You should have known July was lying not from the number of wincons, but because what she claimed didn't add up with what you knew

In the end you even revert to thinking Inferno had the same winconcop too?
Maybe it was a day-based one, and July got cursed over night and I found the new wincon?
Maybe Inferno only finds the second wincon?

I thought Inferno may have also been a winconcop the moment he crumbed it D1. It affected my N1 action and everything. On his flip I believe he may have been a JOAT, but I have no reason to doubt that he investigated July.

I've received a 'curse' wincon, which was to be part of a successful lynch that Day; NH I believe received the same 'curse' for a different Day. I doubt July would have been given a different curse, and I doubt your ability would have picked up that wincon, both because it was given, and because it wouldn't replace her 1st wincon

It seems very unlikely that Inferno would receive someone's 2nd wincon before their 1st, or that July, when claiming, would claim only her 2nd wincon as the only wincon in her role PM.

I don't ****ing know, but it's speculation. All I know is that I sent Overswarm the command to investigate July, and I got back that she needs to hammer within 48 hours of the day ending. GEEZ.

This isn't just speculation. What it is, is that July's actions, and Inferno's actions, don't add up with the results you've claimed. I'll say it again:

#1 July didn't claim the individual wincon in her role PM until Day 2. When she was staring down the barrel of a lynch, and at the potential of having been investigated, why would she lie about what her individual wincon was, given it's nothing particularly scummy?

#2 I remember Inferno claiming July was lying, and then when she claimed the individual wincon she actually had in her role pm, he backed off. The specifics of what he says are interesting- and there's a very clear implication that July is not lying about the win condition in her role PM.

I don't actually think you can explain this, because I think you're lying.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

What defines useful for you Kary ?
Where should me and Orbo be looking then ?
What do you think of Seph's response to you ?

Use your head, pursue your reads, etc.

I wasn't impressed. I may re-read it and see if I can shake the feeling he's lying.

Now let's assume you & Seph are both town for a second. Who is scum NH/DH, why specifically does Kantrip's grimey D1 read townie to you ?

?? What are you actually asking me about NH/DH?

I already gave you 4 points on why I thought Kantrip was town. Do you want me to just elaborate on them, or what? I don't feel like going through every post he's made.

What made you know this ?

Also, you should read the game.

In my big post I explain that I investigated WTT N2, and got 'be night killed by mafia' as their wincon. That seems a reasonable premise for knowing they're not mafia

Did you have any reason for knowing they were scum? Or were you just saying that because you could?

 

[FullMetalLynch]

Kary is seph mafia of indy in your reads ?

 

[FullMetalLynch]

Also i had wtT as scum forever since D1 mainly because of his inexplicable hard on for hando after one post.

Also did not like his D2 where he looked uncommitted to July before it became evident that July was going to be the lynch that day. He looked more like he was pushing other slots , now that he flipped indy it reads to me like he was setting up ML's