The True Arena - Kirby Match-Up/Stage Discussion (Discussing: Villager!)

[Aunt Jemima]

ok I made the post you gave me into the stage discussion thing. What do you think? I would add info but I'm really tired so I'll do it tomorrow.

I think it's great. Easy to read, while being able to have tons of information. The table for each stage detailing what characters to and not to take, strategies, tech, etc. is a good way to gather information, too. Nice job!

 

[EMPEROR Eevee]

Alright, sorry for the delayed update. Here's the schedule for the rest of January:

1/12/15 ~ 1/18/15 - and

1/19/15 ~ 1/25/15 - and

1/26/15 ~ 2/1/5 - and

I still think Sonic should be discussed. He's far more scarier than Ness and Mario.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Did I seriously forget to switch this thread again?

@ Asdioh , could you take over this thread for the time being, or no? I've been a bit more busy lately so I keep forgetting to switch it.

 

[Asdioh]

I could, but how?
though this reminds me of a really cool thing the genius OP of this thread did: http://smashboards.com/threads/the-kirby-video-archive-kirby-critique-thread.186419/

 

[Macchiato]

@ Asdioh Since I'm doing the stage discussion portion, tell if we should add something to the chart. If you can, what stages do you think we should take or not take the past 5 characters we already discussed.

Also on the MU chart, you put sheik's score on zelda instead.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

My Match-Up Ranking for Ness:

Kirby has an excellent off stage game, with good and strong aerials and a lot of jumps, Kirby can dominate characters who have slight disadvantages in their own off stage play. One of these characters is Ness, who, while has a cool jump, his recovery can be easily stomped by the one and only Kirby himself (confirmed to be a he, don't scream at me). His ground game can be tough, but I feel that Kirby has the advantage. I will be doing a ??:?? for three categories (Off stage, on stage, and a couple stage picks.) and average those together, as well as my own thoughts overall. I will not be doing copy considering Ness does not have it, so I couldn't give him a score, but I will say if it is worth using and if it gives Kirby a real advantage.

On Stage:

Pros On Stage:
- With Kirby's multiple jumps, a good airdodge, and stone, baiting a PK Thunder from Ness (to juggle you, not to recovery) can cause Ness some trouble, either by fastfalling and D-tilting, or using stone.
- If a Ness tries to U-tilt string you and misses a string or gets greedy and does it when you're percent is too high for it to string, react with a D-air and cause some damage.
- Kirby has no projectiles, so PSI Magnet is useless, with a slight disadvantage to his baseball bat (can't hit any projectiles back with it).
- DI the D-throw to F-air strings, and get an EASY punish since you have so many jumps.
- Kirby's B-throw hits Ness up to approximately 24%, the 3rd most out of all characters. Utilize this, since you can D-air to U-tilt to B-throw B-air at 0% if you get it correctly.

Cons On Stage:
- PK Fire is easy to hit on Kirby and can't be ducked under.
- Ness already has excellent kill power, Kirby's weight is a real disadvantage.
- PK Flash is easier to hit since Kirby has bad airspeed.
- Anything predictable can be punished super easily, due to Ness having a lot of viable combo and move options.

On Stage Rating:
I would say its a 60:40 in Kirby's favour.

Off Stage:
Pros Off Stage:
- While Ness tries to recover with PK Thunder, either jump in quickly and take the thunder, or just nair, fair, or dair him. These could hit him further, to a point where he can't get back up.
- D-air strings off the ledge are INCREDIBLY easy against Ness, you can go for up to 3, since he has no reliable way to get out of them. Footstools are also a thing (and easier for me, at least).
- While Ness uses thunder to recover, but you are too high or he is too low to do any aerials or footstool, use rock. It can either stage spike him or just deal a bunch of damage.
- Inhale while he is in PK Thunder recovering for an easy suicide, or just spit him out and make him go even further.
- If Ness is trying to B-air kill, dodge and retaliate with a bair, fair, or nair.
- You know where his jump is gonna go, always. If you are below him off the stage, go for a final cutter spike.
- If Ness is going for the PK Flash when you're off the stage, just wait it out.
- Dodge a nair and use your own, don't really need to explain this one.
- Ledge-trump to B-air is surprisingly easy against Ness.

Cons Off Stage:
- Kirby's weight causes problems, pretty much explains itself.
- B-air edgeguarding can kill early due to weight + bad air speed.
- N-air is easy to hit and can be used to gimp Kirby, no matter how many jumps he has.
- D-air on Ness is a spike that needs to be timed, but to due Kirby's airspeed, it isn't as hard.

Off Stage Rating:
- I would say its 85:15 in Kirby's favour.

Copy:
Pros of Copy:
- Inhaling Ness gets you one of the most powerful attacks in the game, giving Kirby a move for better edge-guarding and hard pressure.
- Less predictable, not many are used to kirby pulling out a PK Flash.
- PK Flash can catch Ness during a PK Thunder recovery, if you time it right. It could also be used as a wall, so Ness knows he can only recover low and snap the edge, giving Kirby a huge advantage.

Cons of Copy:
- Basically all the cons of the move itself (Slow, predictable ((but not as)), hard to hit, and puts you in a free fall, meaning no using it offstage.
- The opposing Ness will be more careful offstage, meaning it'll be harder to gimp.

Worth taking?
Depends on your play, but I would suggest not. PK Flash is not an excellent move for Kirby, and is basically a slow edge-guard tool that will make it genuinely harder to edge-guard and gimp. Inhale is an excellent move for gimping, and I find it more of a good tool on Ness than PK Flash.

Some Stages:
FD:
Pros for FD:
- No platforms, meaning Kirby can D-air combo easier, and D-air combos are really good against Ness.
- No platform for Ness to PK Thunder to, giving Kirby more options to edge-guard and less options for Ness.

Cons for FD:
- U-air strings are harder, no platform to land on for extra jumps.
- Harder to apply pressure.

Rating:
50:50

Smashville:

Pros for Smashville:
- A platform, so if Ness tries to recover there, you can apply pressure.
- Platform goes a bit off stage, meaning F-smash and Bair are REALLY reliable if you catch him camping there.
- You can go under the stage.

Cons for Smashville:
- Basically FD if your opponent decides to ignore the platform.

Rating:
60:40 in Kirby's favour.

Battlefield:

Pros for Battlefield:
- Platforms to U-air combo.
- Up-smash kills earlier on platforms.
- Best stage for applying pressure.
- Even though Ness has more options to aim for PK Thunder, you have more places to punish.
- Final Cutter can land on the highest platform if done on the ground, good for punishing.

Cons for Battlefield:
- Rock is basically useless (You can slide off of platforms for more speed, but that's it).
- D-air combos are harder to land.
- Kirby is already pretty easy to kill, and U-air from Ness will seal the deal early.
- Ness has more options for PK Thunder.
- Kirby's first jump barely land son the first platform and is slow.

Rating:
40:60 in the favour of Ness.

Why I'm only doing these three:
- These three stages are easily the most used in tournaments.
- These I feel are the most generic, yet game changing.
- I'm not gonna do a bunch of stages, I've already taken more than an hour to write this.

Extra Info:
- Omega stages are basically the same, but some (like Lylat) are a disadvantage to Kirby due to under-stage wonkiness.
- Stages Kirby can go under are already advantages for Kirby.

So which stage should I use?
Smashville is your best bet.

Additional Notes:

Spoiler

- More people play Ness, which means that generally Ness players will be ahead of Kirby players in new techniques and improvements, and counters to bad match-ups.
- A lot of my counters to Ness involve dodging, so if you don't dodge it won't work. Kirby is (at least for me) about reading your opponent and punishing, since most of Kirby's moves are predictable, especially combo moves.
- In my overall rating I have a personal opinion, which is the score I would generally give without doing ratings for each category, it basically sums up the categories I didn't write due to time contraints (More stages, neutral, spacing, zoning, moveset in general, stuff like that).

All Ratings:
Onstage: 60:40
Offstage: 85:15
Copy: N/A
Stage Total Average: 50:50
Personal Opinion 65:35

Total Rating:
65:35
(The average of all the ratings)

EDIT : Tried to make it neat with spoilers, but putting a spoiler in front of the first paragraph title made it it's own spoiler, so sorry for the messiness.

EDIT 2: ugh, I wrote this at 2 AM and didn't read the schedule probably. I hope this could still be added in.

 

[MaximTomato]

Awesome! And just to add, don't forget that Ness can absorb your pk flash if you copy his ability.

 

[PSIBoy]

My Match-Up Ranking for Ness:

Kirby has an excellent off stage game, with good and strong aerials and a lot of jumps, Kirby can dominate characters who have slight disadvantages in their own off stage play. One of these characters is Ness, who, while has a cool jump, his recovery can be easily stomped by the one and only Kirby himself (confirmed to be a he, don't scream at me). His ground game can be tough, but I feel that Kirby has the advantage. I will be doing a ??:?? for three categories (Off stage, on stage, and a couple stage picks.) and average those together, as well as my own thoughts overall. I will not be doing copy considering Ness does not have it, so I couldn't give him a score, but I will say if it is worth using and if it gives Kirby a real advantage.

On Stage:

Pros On Stage:
- With Kirby's multiple jumps, a good airdodge, and stone, baiting a PK Thunder from Ness (to juggle you, not to recovery) can cause Ness some trouble, either by fastfalling and D-tilting, or using stone.
- If a Ness tries to U-tilt string you and misses a string or gets greedy and does it when you're percent is too high for it to string, react with a D-air and cause some damage.
- Kirby has no projectiles, so PSI Magnet is useless, with a slight disadvantage to his baseball bat (can't hit any projectiles back with it).
- DI the D-throw to F-air strings, and get an EASY punish since you have so many jumps.
- Kirby's B-throw hits Ness up to approximately 24%, the 3rd most out of all characters. Utilize this, since you can D-air to U-tilt to B-throw B-air at 0% if you get it correctly.

Cons On Stage:
- PK Fire is easy to hit on Kirby and can't be ducked under.
- Ness already has excellent kill power, Kirby's weight is a real disadvantage.
- PK Flash is easier to hit since Kirby has bad airspeed.
- Anything predictable can be punished super easily, due to Ness having a lot of viable combo and move options.

On Stage Rating:
I would say its a 60:40 in Kirby's favour.

Off Stage:
Pros Off Stage:
- While Ness tries to recover with PK Thunder, either jump in quickly and take the thunder, or just nair, fair, or dair him. These could hit him further, to a point where he can't get back up.
- D-air strings off the ledge are INCREDIBLY easy against Ness, you can go for up to 3, since he has no reliable way to get out of them. Footstools are also a thing (and easier for me, at least).
- While Ness uses thunder to recover, but you are too high or he is too low to do any aerials or footstool, use rock. It can either stage spike him or just deal a bunch of damage.
- Inhale while he is in PK Thunder recovering for an easy suicide, or just spit him out and make him go even further.
- If Ness is trying to B-air kill, dodge and retaliate with a bair, fair, or nair.
- You know where his jump is gonna go, always. If you are below him off the stage, go for a final cutter spike.
- If Ness is going for the PK Flash when you're off the stage, just wait it out.
- Dodge a nair and use your own, don't really need to explain this one.
- Ledge-trump to B-air is surprisingly easy against Ness.

Cons Off Stage:
- Kirby's weight causes problems, pretty much explains itself.
- B-air edgeguarding can kill early due to weight + bad air speed.
- N-air is easy to hit and can be used to gimp Kirby, no matter how many jumps he has.
- D-air on Ness is a spike that needs to be timed, but to due Kirby's airspeed, it isn't as hard.

Off Stage Rating:
- I would say its 85:15 in Kirby's favour.

Copy:
Pros of Copy:
- Inhaling Ness gets you one of the most powerful attacks in the game, giving Kirby a move for better edge-guarding and hard pressure.
- Less predictable, not many are used to kirby pulling out a PK Flash.
- PK Flash can catch Ness during a PK Thunder recovery, if you time it right. It could also be used as a wall, so Ness knows he can only recover low and snap the edge, giving Kirby a huge advantage.

Cons of Copy:
- Basically all the cons of the move itself (Slow, predictable ((but not as)), hard to hit, and puts you in a free fall, meaning no using it offstage.
- The opposing Ness will be more careful offstage, meaning it'll be harder to gimp.

Worth taking?
Depends on your play, but I would suggest not. PK Flash is not an excellent move for Kirby, and is basically a slow edge-guard tool that will make it genuinely harder to edge-guard and gimp. Inhale is an excellent move for gimping, and I find it more of a good tool on Ness than PK Flash.

Some Stages:
FD:
Pros for FD:
- No platforms, meaning Kirby can D-air combo easier, and D-air combos are really good against Ness.
- No platform for Ness to PK Thunder to, giving Kirby more options to edge-guard and less options for Ness.

Cons for FD:
- U-air strings are harder, no platform to land on for extra jumps.
- Harder to apply pressure.

Rating:
50:50

Smashville:

Pros for Smashville:
- A platform, so if Ness tries to recover there, you can apply pressure.
- Platform goes a bit off stage, meaning F-smash and Bair are REALLY reliable if you catch him camping there.
- You can go under the stage.

Cons for Smashville:
- Basically FD if your opponent decides to ignore the platform.

Rating:
60:40 in Kirby's favour.

Battlefield:

Pros for Battlefield:
- Platforms to U-air combo.
- Up-smash kills earlier on platforms.
- Best stage for applying pressure.
- Even though Ness has more options to aim for PK Thunder, you have more places to punish.
- Final Cutter can land on the highest platform if done on the ground, good for punishing.

Cons for Battlefield:
- Rock is basically useless (You can slide off of platforms for more speed, but that's it).
- D-air combos are harder to land.
- Kirby is already pretty easy to kill, and U-air from Ness will seal the deal early.
- Ness has more options for PK Thunder.
- Kirby's first jump barely land son the first platform and is slow.

Rating:
40:60 in the favour of Ness.

Why I'm only doing these three:
- These three stages are easily the most used in tournaments.
- These I feel are the most generic, yet game changing.
- I'm not gonna do a bunch of stages, I've already taken more than an hour to write this.

Extra Info:
- Omega stages are basically the same, but some (like Lylat) are a disadvantage to Kirby due to under-stage wonkiness.
- Stages Kirby can go under are already advantages for Kirby.

So which stage should I use?
Smashville is your best bet.

Additional Notes:

Spoiler

- More people play Ness, which means that generally Ness players will be ahead of Kirby players in new techniques and improvements, and counters to bad match-ups.
- A lot of my counters to Ness involve dodging, so if you don't dodge it won't work. Kirby is (at least for me) about reading your opponent and punishing, since most of Kirby's moves are predictable, especially combo moves.
- In my overall rating I have a personal opinion, which is the score I would generally give without doing ratings for each category, it basically sums up the categories I didn't write due to time contraints (More stages, neutral, spacing, zoning, moveset in general, stuff like that).

All Ratings:
Onstage: 60:40
Offstage: 85:15
Copy: N/A
Stage Total Average: 50:50
Personal Opinion 65:35

Total Rating:
65:35
(The average of all the ratings)

EDIT : Tried to make it neat with spoilers, but putting a spoiler in front of the first paragraph title made it it's own spoiler, so sorry for the messiness.

What about Ness's aerials? F-air is disjoined and can combo into itself, making it a good spacing tool. N-air comes out extremely fast and does a good amount of damage, making it not only an approach tool, but also an out of shield option and spacing tool. B-air is a KO move (Ness's 3rd best), u-air is also a ridiculous KO move (Ness's 2nd best), but d-air is generally useless. Seems like Ness wins in the air most of the time to me.

Ness's grab game is one of the best in the game. D-air to f-air/n-air/u-air works until fairly high percents at least. If not, mindgames. F-throw goes far and can provide stage control. U-throw is generally risky in this matchup because it is inferior to f-throw and it generally leads to PKT juggles, which Ness can't really do when Kirby is right above him. And we all know about his b-throw, right? It KOs Kirby on the edge at 82% without rage. To emphasize the advantage this gives Ness, on the Ness boards, if it weren't for the fact that Shiek dies so early, we wouldn't be saying that the matchup is even/slight Ness advantage. Plus, PK Fire is an excellent setup to his grab game.

You also underestimate Ness's off-stage game. A smart Ness is not going to let you get away with intercepting him that easily. Sure, you may be able to drop a stone on Ness while he's using PKT, but Ness will either airdodge, or use an aerial to intercept. And PKT can KO Kirby around 40% or something, so if you eat it, you better be at really low %s. And a smart Ness will not consistently be spiked by Final Cutter as well. And I think that bat may be able to reflect the shockwave.

Other than that, not really any arguments.

I believe it to be 60-40 Ness's favor. But I thought Ness discussion was over?

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

What about Ness's aerials? F-air is disjoined and can combo into itself, making it a good spacing tool. N-air comes out extremely fast and does a good amount of damage, making it not only an approach tool, but also an out of shield option and spacing tool. B-air is a KO move (Ness's 3rd best), u-air is also a ridiculous KO move (Ness's 2nd best), but d-air is generally useless. Seems like Ness wins in the air most of the time to me.

Ness's grab game is one of the best in the game. D-air to f-air/n-air/u-air works until fairly high percents at least. If not, mindgames. F-throw goes far and can provide stage control. U-throw is generally risky in this matchup because it is inferior to f-throw and it generally leads to PKT juggles, which Ness can't really do when Kirby is right above him. And we all know about his b-throw, right? It KOs Kirby on the edge at 82% without rage. To emphasize the advantage this gives Ness, on the Ness boards, if it weren't for the fact that Shiek dies so early, we wouldn't be saying that the matchup is even/slight Ness advantage. Plus, PK Fire is an excellent setup to his grab game.

You also underestimate Ness's off-stage game. A smart Ness is not going to let you get away with intercepting him that easily. Sure, you may be able to drop a stone on Ness while he's using PKT, but Ness will either airdodge, or use an aerial to intercept. And PKT can KO Kirby around 40% or something, so if you eat it, you better be at really low %s. And a smart Ness will not consistently be spiked by Final Cutter as well. And I think that bat may be able to reflect the shockwave.

Other than that, not really any arguments.

I believe it to be 60-40 Ness's favor. But I thought Ness discussion was over?

F-air strings are DI-able, so if you DI it gives Kirby an easy punish.
N-air is really good, I just said if they miss/you dodge, they get punished.
B-air edge guarding is risky and easily avoidable, and since Kirby is a good punisher, Ness would be in trouble.

Ness is good in the air, but he is also predictable in the air, and with a weak recovery that is amazingly easy to punish, Kirby gets strings. PK thunder for recovering isn't fast, so strings are easy. You know where his jump is gonna lead, so a b-air (which is also one of Kirby's best kill moves) will work there. Ledge trumping to b-air is easy against Ness.

I don't underestimate Ness's offstage game, I think its darn good, I mained Ness before, but Kirby is an offstage beast who has a surprisingly good match-up against Ness. PKT punishes are easy, a whiffed fair is a deadly mistake, but bair has less time to finish. PKT can kill early, but you just gotta learn the match-up. Learn to get him before he launches, and it could be GG.

Ness's grab kills really early on Kirby, and I took that heavily into account. Besides Ness's grab game, everything else is pretty punishable. You don't just "let" someone final cutter spike you, that isn't how it works. If Ness is on stage and reflecting the shockwave, its basically as easy as not using it, 5 jumps is a lot. A smart Kirby will not be under an opponent off stage, since you can really only FC spike or u-air, both not easy to hit. Staying above Ness is an advantage, and stone can punish a u-air, so bye bye kill option if the Kirby is smart.

The Ness matchup is in Kirby's favour, just because Ness is top tier doesn't mean he doesn't have bad match-ups. As someone who mained Ness, who's friend mains Ness, watching FOW's stream (plays Ness a lot) and faces a lot of Ness's online, I think I have pretty good experience in the matchup.

 

[Asdioh]

"if they miss/you dodge" applies to literally all of Kirby's aerials as well. Ness' aerials flat out beat, or out-trade, Kirby's aerials. You understand how ridiculous the hitbox on Ness' Nair is, right? It has a huge disjointed hitbox (for reasons,) so it will beat out literally all of Kirby's aerials, and it has a faster startup time than any of them.
Backthrow killing at 80% is a huge deal. Kirby has nowhere near that strength, besides edgeguarding. Edgeguarding isn't even as easy as you say, because Ness' double jump brings him far, and he can airdodge while using it. If he's forced to use PK Thunder to recover, then yes, he should lose his stock, but usually he's not going to be far enough offstage to be forced to use it, unless he's already at a fairly high percent.

It seems to me that Kirby's biggest strengths in the matchup are: being able to DI out of PK Fire very easily, being decent at getting out of PK Thunder juggles, and having some options for avoiding grabs at kill percents, thanks to multiple jumps and being able to throw out a 3 frame Jab just in case Ness runs up to grab. Kirby can combo Ness a bit, but he has to respect that Nair, so he can't followup with combos as much as he would like. Kirby can gimp, but I think it's harder than you give it credit for.

The matchup is pretty even imo. I would never dare to put it 65:35, I think you only got that because you overrated Kirby's offstage advantage to an extreme.


And yeah Ness discussion "is over" but I have to like, edit the stuff with matchup numbers and stuff, and I really don't believe in specific numbers too much. I'd rather just call something "even, slight advantage, advantage," etc.










Week Something: Mario & Yoshi Discussion!

Pros!

Cons!

Copy Ability!

Stage Picks!

Additional Notes!

Overall Score!

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

"if they miss/you dodge" applies to literally all of Kirby's aerials as well. Ness' aerials flat out beat, or out-trade, Kirby's aerials. You understand how ridiculous the hitbox on Ness' Nair is, right? It has a huge disjointed hitbox (for reasons,) so it will beat out literally all of Kirby's aerials, and it has a faster startup time than any of them.
Backthrow killing at 80% is a huge deal. Kirby has nowhere near that strength, besides edgeguarding. Edgeguarding isn't even as easy as you say, because Ness' double jump brings him far, and he can airdodge while using it. If he's forced to use PK Thunder to recover, then yes, he should lose his stock, but usually he's not going to be far enough offstage to be forced to use it, unless he's already at a fairly high percent.

It seems to me that Kirby's biggest strengths in the matchup are: being able to DI out of PK Fire very easily, being decent at getting out of PK Thunder juggles, and having some options for avoiding grabs at kill percents, thanks to multiple jumps and being able to throw out a 3 frame Jab just in case Ness runs up to grab. Kirby can combo Ness a bit, but he has to respect that Nair, so he can't followup with combos as much as he would like. Kirby can gimp, but I think it's harder than you give it credit for.

The matchup is pretty even imo. I would never dare to put it 65:35, I think you only got that because you overrated Kirby's offstage advantage to an extreme.


And yeah Ness discussion "is over" but I have to like, edit the stuff with matchup numbers and stuff, and I really don't believe in specific numbers too much. I'd rather just call something "even, slight advantage, advantage," etc.










Week Something: Mario & Yoshi Discussion!

Pros!

Cons!

Copy Ability!

Stage Picks!

Additional Notes!

Overall Score!

I don't believe I overrated his offstage game, since I have basically stuck all my time into Kirby since he is my most favourite character to play. I agree some of my points were biased due to air-dodging, but I do believe that the Kirby-Ness matchup is a really good one for Kirby. While N-air beats out aerials, it is, I would like to say again, super predictable, and in Kirby's case, punishable. If you know a good Ness will Nair, just simply don't follow up, let him do it, then jump back in. It has ending lag, like almost all other moves in the entire game. B-throw kill is a huge thing, but its one big thing, while Kirby has more things over him. Plus, Kirby is a more aerial character, if you keep getting baited into grabs on the ground, something isn't right.

 

[PSIBoy]

I don't believe I overrated his offstage game, since I have basically stuck all my time into Kirby since he is my most favourite character to play. I agree some of my points were biased due to air-dodging, but I do believe that the Kirby-Ness matchup is a really good one for Kirby. While N-air beats out aerials, it is, I would like to say again, super predictable, and in Kirby's case, punishable. If you know a good Ness will Nair, just simply don't follow up, let him do it, then jump back in. It has ending lag, like almost all other moves in the entire game. B-throw kill is a huge thing, but its one big thing, while Kirby has more things over him. Plus, Kirby is a more aerial character, if you keep getting baited into grabs on the ground, something isn't right.

Shiek beats Ness in basically every single area (and can easily gimp him as well) except KO power and yet the matchup is still considered rather even. Mr. Game & Watch can also easily gimp Ness and yet the Ness boards are not in a panic over that. And also, Kirby's n-air, f-air, and b-air are predictable as well and like you said, has ending lag and would also leave him open to punish and especially vulnerable to OOS options (n-air, maybe grab (I swear I've been grabbed from out of the air before)) much like Ness himself (though you didn't say the last few parts). D-air has ridiculous start-up lag and would not be advisable anyway offstage because PKT would pass right through him while stunning him, therefore having Kirby eat a PKT2 that would only have the purpose of shortening the distance and potentially getting yourself killed, but against Kirby's u-air all Ness can do is airdodge or jump. However, clanking aerials generally goes in Ness's favor because of his disjoined and fast aerials. And Kirby can't say in the air indefinitely, and does not have Jigglypuff's air speed, leaving him briefly vulnerable to grabs every time he lands.

Being easily gimped does not always equal horrible matchup. Besides, double jump is sufficient for Ness's recovery at early-low high percents generally. You are likely not going to get an early gimp on him unless your opponent slips up or mindgames. Later on, PKT leaves Ness vulnerable, but that would likely be past 100. Ness can also u-air and b-air kill around then too.

And I do not believe Ness is Top Tier material. He's good, but not that good. And it's pretty much "common sense" (Thomas Paine) to expect that even the best characters to have bad matchups. I know that.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Shiek beats Ness in basically every single area (and can easily gimp him as well) except KO power and yet the matchup is still considered rather even. Mr. Game & Watch can also easily gimp Ness and yet the Ness boards are not in a panic over that. And also, Kirby's n-air, f-air, and b-air are predictable as well and like you said, has ending lag and would also leave him open to punish and especially vulnerable to OOS options (n-air, maybe grab (I swear I've been grabbed from out of the air before)) much like Ness himself (though you didn't say the last few parts). D-air has ridiculous start-up lag and would not be advisable anyway offstage because PKT would pass right through him while stunning him, therefore having Kirby eat a PKT2 that would only have the purpose of shortening the distance and potentially getting yourself killed, but against Kirby's u-air all Ness can do is airdodge or jump. However, clanking aerials generally goes in Ness's favor because of his disjoined and fast aerials. And Kirby can't say in the air indefinitely, and does not have Jigglypuff's air speed, leaving him briefly vulnerable to grabs every time he lands.

Being easily gimped does not always equal horrible matchup. Besides, double jump is sufficient for Ness's recovery at early-low high percents generally. You are likely not going to get an early gimp on him unless your opponent slips up or mindgames. Later on, PKT leaves Ness vulnerable, but that would likely be past 100. Ness can also u-air and b-air kill around then too.

And I do not believe Ness is Top Tier material. He's good, but not that good. And it's pretty much "common sense" (Thomas Paine) to expect that even the best characters to have bad matchups. I know that.

I understand that Kirby gimping Ness easily doesn't make the match-up amazing, but in general (and in my opinion), a smart Kirby can outplay a smart Ness, simply due to airgame. I could change my score to 60:40, but a 65:35 isn't THAT big of a difference. I would expect a freak-out if I put 90:10, since that would be insane.

Kirby doesn't have a good airspeed, but why would a Kirby just land right in front of a Ness player? Nobody does that, no matter what match up. Plus, if you wanna avoid a grab but wanna land, use rock a bit away, and get out of it. It causes pressure and scares the opponent, and thats the same with final cutter.

 

[PSIBoy]

I understand that Kirby gimping Ness easily doesn't make the match-up amazing, but in general (and in my opinion), a smart Kirby can outplay a smart Ness, simply due to airgame. I could change my score to 60:40, but a 65:35 isn't THAT big of a difference. I would expect a freak-out if I put 90:10, since that would be insane.

Kirby doesn't have a good airspeed, but why would a Kirby just land right in front of a Ness player? Nobody does that, no matter what match up. Plus, if you wanna avoid a grab but wanna land, use rock a bit away, and get out of it. It causes pressure and scares the opponent, and thats the same with final cutter.

Ness can dash? Like everyone else? Rock is also very punishable as well as Final Cutter, even if Ness wasn't quick enough for the grab. He could shield and then use an attack to punish for FC, and for Rock he could attack him as he exited the rock. That would not fool a smart Ness consistently, unless it was a larger stage. And wouldn't vice versa on the outplaying airgame would also work the other way?

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Ness can dash? Like everyone else? Rock is also very punishable as well as Final Cutter, even if Ness wasn't quick enough for the grab. He could shield and then use an attack to punish for FC, and for Rock he could attack him as he exited the rock. That would not fool a smart Ness consistently, unless it was a larger stage. And wouldn't vice versa on the outplaying airgame would also work the other way?

Well I thought you meant the Kirby would land in front of Ness. If a Kirby lands away from Ness, then just jump back up or smash attack if you feel he is running in for the grab.

FC and rock are punishable, but if the Ness is right in front of you then it would be good for spacing.

It wouldn't fool a Ness constantly, but it certainly could fool them once, and Kirby won't be running out of jumps in the air very often.

Anyone can outplay anyone, but I feel at the same level, a Kirby could play a smarter air game due to his multiple jumps, a quicker bair, a wall-like fair, and being a small target.

 

[PSIBoy]

Well I thought you meant the Kirby would land in front of Ness. If a Kirby lands away from Ness, then just jump back up or smash attack if you feel he is running in for the grab.

FC and rock are punishable, but if the Ness is right in front of you then it would be good for spacing.

It wouldn't fool a Ness constantly, but it certainly could fool them once, and Kirby won't be running out of jumps in the air very often.

Anyone can outplay anyone, but I feel at the same level, a Kirby could play a smarter air game due to his multiple jumps, a quicker bair, a wall-like fair, and being a small target.

Fair enough. But I would still argue that Ness's aerials still would beat out Kirby's due to f-air's reach with n-air's speed and spacing as well as u-air's juggling ability plus its KO power. Plus, out of shield options can also prove very harmful to Kirby's end lag on any aerial.

And I was talking about taking advantage of landing lag when he landed. Even without airdodging onto the ground, Kirby is still briefly vulnerable which Ness can capitalize on if he is close enough. Even if he can't grab, he can n-air or f-air against a jump, or shield an attack and then OOS after that. And unless Ness is on the other side of FD, I cannot imagine how he would fail to punish Stone consistently. The animation to get out is very long combined with start-up animation and then the time between that and the get-out animation.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Fair enough. But I would still argue that Ness's aerials still would beat out Kirby's due to f-air's reach with n-air's speed and spacing as well as u-air's juggling ability plus its KO power. Plus, out of shield options can also prove very harmful to Kirby's end lag on any aerial.

And I was talking about taking advantage of landing lag when he landed. Even without airdodging onto the ground, Kirby is still briefly vulnerable which Ness can capitalize on if he is close enough. Even if he can't grab, he can n-air or f-air against a jump, or shield an attack and then OOS after that. And unless Ness is on the other side of FD, I cannot imagine how he would fail to punish Stone consistently. The animation to get out is very long combined with start-up animation and then the time between that and the get-out animation.

True, but stone also reaches the ground fast, so if the Ness isn't expecting it, it could be an easy escape for Kirby.

 

[PSIBoy]

True, but stone also reaches the ground fast, so if the Ness isn't expecting it, it could be an easy escape for Kirby.

Still has that start-up lag, which is very predictable. Unless Ness is also airborne or on the other side of FD or any Omega stage or behind like a pillar or hits a platform high enough or is careless enough/mistimed an evasive option to get hit, Ness will most likely get the punish.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Still has that start-up lag, which is very predictable. Unless Ness is also airborne or on the other side of FD or any Omega stage or behind like a pillar or hits a platform high enough or is careless enough/mistimed an evasive option to get hit, Ness will most likely get the punish.

Plus, a B-throw from the middle of the stage doesn't kill at 80%, and I doubt that Kirby will be out of jumps at the top of the stage beyond that point.

 

[Unknownkid]

You two either get yourself a room and "smash it" over there or give it a rest. We are done with Ness matchup and now time for Mario via Yoshi.

 

[Asdioh]

Um okay, well I'll give it a shot. I've played against good players of both characters, but unfortunately only on wifi.


1. Pros: If Kirby gets a solid Bair (or miraculous Dair) on Mario after he uses his jump offstage, he's pretty dead. Someone will need to teach me how to do this though, since whenever I get close, Mario will just UpB, and the invincibility usually seems to beat Bair, or it just comes out too fast to react.

2. Cons: Kirby is slower on the ground! Kirby is slower in the air! Aerial approaches get easily stuffed by Super Jump Punch and Upsmash. Kirby's air-to-air moves probably all lose, as usual.

3. Copy Ability: Fireball is decent for Kirby. It's definitely worth taking, just be careful of the cape.

4. Stage Picks: I'm gonna go with not-Battlefield for this one. Mario pressures Kirby on platforms harder than Kirby does to Mario, and Mario loves the extra landing options. Stages with high ceilings are also not bad, as Upsmash is one of Mario's primary KO moves.

5. Additional Notes:

6. Overall Score: I'm going to guess 40:60, Mario's favor. Kirby has no significant advantage or overpowering strategies I can think of. Mario's faster air and ground mobility, faster frame data, and access to a usable projectile make it a constant uphill battle.







1. Pros: Literally nothing.

2. Cons: Even more dramatically than in Mario's case... Kirby is significantly slower on the ground, and significantly slower in the air. Kirby will also die much earlier than Yoshi. Yoshi's frame 3 Nair makes combos difficult. Yoshi's frame 5 Upair puts Kirby in a terrible spot anytime he's above Yoshi. Yoshi is difficult to gimp because his extreme airspeed while airdodging means that once the airdodge is over, he'll be well out of your reach, so going offstage vs. Yoshi seems ineffective. Gimping Yoshi in general seems difficult, since if you wait onstage, he can pelt you with some eggs, before deciding to grab the ledge or jump above you.

3. Copy Ability: It's usable. I don't think it's worth taking the risk of using Inhale for.

4. Stage Picks: I don't really like Battlefield in this matchup either, but I just don't like Battlefield for a lot of Kirby's matchups.

5. Additional Notes:

6. Overall Score: It's heavily in Yoshi's favor. Kirby has no significant advantage or overpowering strategies I can think of. Yoshi's faster air and ground mobility, good aerials, superarmor jump, and godlike projectile mean he escape your combos and run away and camp all day. Even if he decides not to camp, he is very competent up close. Sounds familiar huh?

 

[PSIBoy]

Um okay, well I'll give it a shot. I've played against good players of both characters, but unfortunately only on wifi.


1. Pros: If Kirby gets a solid Bair (or miraculous Dair) on Mario after he uses his jump offstage, he's pretty dead. Someone will need to teach me how to do this though, since whenever I get close, Mario will just UpB, and the invincibility usually seems to beat Bair, or it just comes out too fast to react.

2. Cons: Kirby is slower on the ground! Kirby is slower in the air! Aerial approaches get easily stuffed by Super Jump Punch and Upsmash. Kirby's air-to-air moves probably all lose, as usual.

3. Copy Ability: Fireball is decent for Kirby. It's definitely worth taking, just be careful of the cape.

4. Stage Picks: I'm gonna go with not-Battlefield for this one. Mario pressures Kirby on platforms harder than Kirby does to Mario, and Mario loves the extra landing options. Stages with high ceilings are also not bad, as Upsmash is one of Mario's primary KO moves.

5. Additional Notes:

6. Overall Score: I'm going to guess 40:60, Mario's favor. Kirby has no significant advantage or overpowering strategies I can think of. Mario's faster air and ground mobility, faster frame data, and access to a usable projectile make it a constant uphill battle.







1. Pros: Literally nothing.

2. Cons: Even more dramatically than in Mario's case... Kirby is significantly slower on the ground, and significantly slower in the air. Kirby will also die much earlier than Yoshi. Yoshi's frame 3 Nair makes combos difficult. Yoshi's frame 5 Upair puts Kirby in a terrible spot anytime he's above Yoshi. Yoshi is difficult to gimp because his extreme airspeed while airdodging means that once the airdodge is over, he'll be well out of your reach, so going offstage vs. Yoshi seems ineffective. Gimping Yoshi in general seems difficult, since if you wait onstage, he can pelt you with some eggs, before deciding to grab the ledge or jump above you.

3. Copy Ability: It's usable. I don't think it's worth taking the risk of using Inhale for.

4. Stage Picks: I don't really like Battlefield in this matchup either, but I just don't like Battlefield for a lot of Kirby's matchups.

5. Additional Notes:

6. Overall Score: It's heavily in Yoshi's favor. Kirby has no significant advantage or overpowering strategies I can think of. Yoshi's faster air and ground mobility, good aerials, superarmor jump, and godlike projectile mean he escape your combos and run away and camp all day. Even if he decides not to camp, he is very competent up close. Sounds familiar huh?

Only pro I can think of is superior recovery to Yoshi. Yoshi's double jump has super armor if I am not mistaken and it goes ridiculously far, but once it is used, he has virtually no other long-distance recovery options. Kirby has 5 jumps and a vertical recovery move (though it leaves him open), and it isn't exactly easy to gimp him either with super armor on the jump.

 

[Lukingordex]

Yep, Based on my experience against Kirby it looks like Kirby just can't approach Yoshi lol, probably one of Yoshi's easiest match ups.

Basically, all kirby can do is hope the yoshi player somehow whiff something and them try to punish it.

 

[Lord Viper]

Mario match up is pretty straight forward, most would use grab strings to do additional damage, thankfully most Mario's attack and grab range are short, Mario has better options on the ground than the air since attacks that you'll see often that will send Kirby flying would be D-Smash or F-Smash. Thankfully gimping Kirby would be difficult for him unless he's lucky he's out of jumps. Kirby plays a better footsies games, and can gimp Mario when he's off the stage. This match up can really go both ways, but Kirby has better options for building up damage and finishing him off. ★

Stages, platforms are a better option against Mario, so Lylat Cruise, Battlefield, etc. Only stages to strike are flat stages, due to the fact that Mario functions better on them. ★

For this match up I'll say +1 Kirby, copying Mario's power will make this match up slightly easier. ★

Since I never found Yoshi to be difficult, my thoughts on this match up would be useless, though it seems everyone else have trouble fighting him. )= ★

 

[chaosmasterro]

I believe that Yoshi is definitely Kirby's worst match up. I feel a stage with platforms can aid Kirby in the match up from Yoshi's egg tosses. Shielding against Yoshi's dair will practically reduce your shield to nothing that can lead to a possible f-smash. I find myself using a lot of jabs in this match up.
Also I find his Yoshi's f-air and u-air to be the most threatening things i this match up. F-air when you are recovering from the side of the stage and u- air when you are above Yoshi. Also it helps not to throw out forward smashes unless they are guaranteed to hit. If Yoshi spotdodges your f-smash it's practically a free down-b.

*Jumping inhale helps as an alternative option to recovering.

Since I never found Yoshi to be difficult, my thoughts on this match up would be useless, though it seems everyone else have trouble fighting him. )= ★

Mind sharing your experiences? You may see something that the rest of us do not.

 

[Terotrous]

Okay, so Asidoh posted on the Yoshi boards seeking matchup advice. I'll admit, I have never actually fought a good Kirby player in Smash 4 (Kirby seems very rare online), but I can give some standard anti-Yoshi advice and maybe you can find some way to adapt that to Kirby.


- Obviously, Kirby has to try to get in on Yoshi, he has no viable options for fighting at range. I don't know if you can inhale eggs, but even if you could it seems risky, the best option for most characters against eggs is just to run up and shield them if necessary, Yoshi usually can't get any kind of shield pressure out of it. If you're close enough, you could attempt some kind of OOS attack to at least discourage him from throwing more, with Kirby Nair or Fair is probably the best bet.

- Yoshi really likes FD and does not like stages with walls or a lot of platforms, as they block his eggs and down Bs. On 3DS, Arena Ferox is easily his worst legal stage, so pick that if you can. On Wii U the stage lists vary more, but stages like Castle Siege, Luigi's Mansion and Pokemon Stadium 2 are good picks if they are available.

- Although Yoshi's double jump is very good, if he is ever caught without it he is very vulnerable. You should try to get used to watching whether he has his jump or not, if he doesn't Kirby could easily gimp him. Even if you cannot get the gimp, Yoshis may be inclined to commit to unsafe downBs if caught without a jump, so be prepared to punish with FSmash. Kirby's FSmash is fast and has a good hitbox so if spaced properly you should be able to avoid the star and hit Yoshi hard.

- Yoshi's biggest (only?) weakness is that he doesn't have any super reliable way to set up kills. His grabs do not lead to any guaranteed damage or kill moves and he can't generally combo into anything that will KO at any reasonable percentage. This often forces him to either wait for you to do something dumb or make a big guess to get the stock. As such, you can extend your survivability greatly against Yoshi by simply playing safe when you are at high percents. Don't take any big risks unless you can get the stock yourself, as Yoshi is just waiting for a move to spot dodge and then DownB to finish you off. Don't worry about taking eggs or grabs if you are at kill percent, any extra damage is basically water under the bridge at that point. Force him to make a big bet on a smash attack and punish hard if he guesses wrong.

 

[GSM_Dren]

Custom 1132 (Upper Cutter/Grounding Stone) Kirby vs Default 1111 Yoshi starting at 02:30:45 , last match starts at 02:48:00 [will edit link once it gets uploaded to YT]

Pros: Not much unfortunately Kirby is smaller in size and harder to hit, but that also means he gets killed earlier. His custom Up B, Upper Cutter gives Kirby an anti-aerial and a kill move, imo his best custom. Running up and shield into punish does work if the Yoshi is overly aggressive and does not space Fair/Nairs correctly. Varying your jumps can bait out an attack by the yoshi, which you can then punish. However, do not stay in the air till your very last jump, because you'll most likely eat an Usmash. Kirby's Fsmash is quick, and kills early. A D-tilt trip into Fsmash finished the second match at Delfino. Also adding that crouching under Yoshi's grab/jabs does work, so use that to your advantage.

Cons: Yoshi is faster in the air and on the ground, so Kirby definitely has to work to get in. Add in egg tosses, and Kirby further has to respect offensive/defensive positioning. And once Kirby does get in, Yoshi's OoS Nair (3 frame) is a nightmare. Jab (also 3 frame) limits close combat for kirby as well. Normal Kirby strings (D-throw to... or U-tilt to...) will not work as Yoshi can DJ out with super heavy armor.

Copy Ability: Egg lay is decent, even better with B-reversing. But inhale is more useful for kirby.

Stage Picks: Flat stages like SV and especially FD allow for plenty of room for Yoshi to roam and wreak havoc on kirby's limited approaching game. Yoshi does not like platforms as they can disrupt his egg toss and subsequent approaches. Stages like Battlefield give kirby a way to hide under the platforms and punish from there. Delfino and halberd are contenders too because Kirby can shark underneath more consistently than Yoshi. The second match was played on Delfino and I believe it was a good counterpick on his part.

Additional Notes: I had a difficult time during this set getting the kills, and we were going back and forth on stock count. Kirby can put up a fight so do not be discouraged when you face a yoshi. I am available to help with MU practice if you guys ever need it!

Overall Score: Yoshi has a significant favor in this matchup. 40:60, maybe even 35:65. I could see why this may be Kirby's worst matchup. Either way do your best and Kirby does have a fighting chance in this MU. Good luck!

 

[Asdioh]

Normal Kirby strings (D-throw to... or U-til to...) will not work as Yoshi can DJ out with super armor.

He doesn't know...

jk but thanks a lot for your post, it was helpful. I'll get to watching those matches now :O

Can you get some other Yoshis in here to comment? I think we're all pretty much in agreement that Yoshi wins the matchup, I'd just like to hear from as many people as possible, and I didn't want to spam their boards Embarrass

 

[Sparky15]

First off, greetings to everyone, and thanks to Unknownkid for leading me here. I understand that the main discussion is Yoshi, but this week does involve Mario, as well, if I'm not mistaken... If I'm doing terrible at following the rules, please let me know. I'd be glad to fix that in a heart beat.

Pros:
-Mario has a straightforward recovery, so a simple hit further should be good. And Kirby can N-air through his Fireballs. Uhh... can't think of anything else, really...

Cons:
-Mario has a handful of moves to KO Kirby with. He can even catch you in the air and go for a d-air and KO you like that. The Rage Effect ACCENTUATES Mario's already deadly moves for Kirby. Also, remember when I said Mario does have a simple recovery? Obviously true. But when you knock him offstage and he's really high up, he can throw out some Fireballs as an attempt to push you back. Those always shut me down, PERSONALLY. Any Mario can practically edgeguard you as well as you can edgeguard Mario, due the possibilties of Caping your Final Cutter the other way. That is a problem because Kirby can't grab the ledge from behind with Final Cutter. Mario can also b-air you, or maybe juggle you further with b-air strings. Then there's the F.L.U.D.D, which is just... annoying. His own Fireballs that can gimp you if you use your midair jumps recklessly. And then there is his f-air... self-explanatory. Also, I don't feel like Kirby has a proper way of breaking out of his combos, regardless of jumping and/or air dodging. Abd even though Kirby is the third lightest character in the game, that doesn't mean Mario can't reach Kirby.

Copy Ability:
-While Fireball is a great projectile, you're ONLY getting access to Mario. Even then, Mario has more than one way of eradicating them. N-air, Cape, and d-air as far as I know. So its not totally necessary to Inhale for it. But if you earn the risk, use them wisely.

Stage Picks:
-Mario can simply apply pressure while you're on platforms. And they can even extend his combos. So Battlefield is definitely not recommended. Stages with a vast amount of space with one platform (Omega stages/Final Destination, Smashville should be OK) are what I recommend. But hey, what do I know? I just keep playing For Glory, waiting to register, for a real tournament...

Additional Notes:

Overall Score: 30:70. I feel as Kirby doesn't have enough moves in his arsenal to challenge Mario's. Mario can just KO Kirby so efficiently early, it isn't not even funny. But maybe I'm not doing something right...

 

[Unknownkid]

First off, greetings to everyone, and thanks to Unknownkid for leading me here. I understand that the main discussion is Yoshi, but this week does involve Mario, as well, if I'm not mistaken... If I'm doing terrible at following the rules, please let me know. I'd be glad to fix that in a heart beat.

Pros:
-Mario has a straightforward recovery, so a simple hit further should be good. And Kirby can N-air through his Fireballs. Uhh... can't think of anything else, really...

Cons:
-Mario has a handful of moves to KO Kirby with. He can even catch you in the air and go for a d-air and KO you like that. The Rage Effect ACCENTUATES Mario's already deadly moves for Kirby. Also, remember when I said Mario does have a simple recovery? Obviously true. But when you knock him offstage and he's really high up, he can throw out some Fireballs as an attempt to push you back. Those always shut me down, PERSONALLY. Any Mario can practically edgeguard you as well as you can edgeguard Mario, due the possibilties of Caping your Final Cutter the other way. That is a problem because Kirby can't grab the ledge from behind with Final Cutter. Mario can also b-air you, or maybe juggle you further with b-air strings. Then there's the F.L.U.D.D, which is just... annoying. His own Fireballs that can gimp you if you use your midair jumps recklessly. And then there is his f-air... self-explanatory. Also, I don't feel like Kirby has a proper way of breaking out of his combos, regardless of jumping and/or air dodging. Abd even though Kirby is the third lightest character in the game, that doesn't mean Mario can't reach Kirby.

Copy Ability:
-While Fireball is a great projectile, you're ONLY getting access to Mario. Even then, Mario has more than one way of eradicating them. N-air, Cape, and d-air as far as I know. So its not totally necessary to Inhale for it. But if you earn the risk, use them wisely.

Stage Picks:
-Mario can simply apply pressure while you're on platforms. And they can even extend his combos. So Battlefield is definitely not recommended. Stages with a vast amount of space with one platform (Omega stages/Final Destination, Smashville should be OK) are what I recommend. But hey, what do I know? I just keep playing For Glory, waiting to register, for a real tournament...

Additional Notes:

Overall Score: 30:70. I feel as Kirby doesn't have enough moves in his arsenal to challenge Mario's. Mario can just KO Kirby so efficiently early, it isn't not even funny. But maybe I'm not doing something right...

Woah Woah, Sparky. This is analysis about the matchup and how to overcome it. Not a blog (I mean no disrespect) of your personal experiences. Mario is my pocket main and I know for a fact that Dair doesn't kill until like 170-180% on Kirby. Unless you mean he manage to link into his smash attack or gimp you. I will post my understanding of the Mario Matchup later this week. But Asdioh and Lord Viper has it pretty much down. A few notes:

You can jab the fireballs.
All his smash attack can kill (Dsmash being the weakiest) but you need to respect Up Smash. It has Invincible Frames at the beginning. Which is why Mario will preform a Reverse Dash Up Smash.
FLUDD is good. But we have 5 jumps so don't worry about FLUDD gimping you. Cape can dangerous too but just cautious.
If it wasn't for Fireball, we have a better ground game than Mario (due to reach). Sadly, we are out match in the air (besides having better priority minus Upair) due this Mario's Air Speed and Combo Potential.

Also, Yoshi mains - Are you guys sure your Double Jump has Super Armor and not Heavy Armor? I know I have knocked a few Yoshis out of his DJ with Bair. Even the Armor and Invincible announced it as Heavy Armor. I'm just curious

 

[Sparky15]

Woah Woah, Sparky. This is analysis about the matchup and how to overcome it. Not a blog (I mean no disrespect) of your personal experiences. Mario is my pocket main and I know for a fact that Dair doesn't kill until like 170-180% on Kirby. Unless you mean he manage to link into his smash attack or gimp you. I will post my understanding of the Mario Matchup later this week. But Asdioh and Lord Viper has it pretty much down. A few notes:

You can jab the fireballs.
All his smash attack can kill (Dsmash being the weakiest) but you need to respect Up Smash. It has Invincible Frames at the beginning. Which is why Mario will preform a Reverse Dash Up Smash.
FLUDD is good. But we have 5 jumps so don't worry about FLUDD gimping you. Cape can dangerous too but just cautious.
If it wasn't for Fireball, we have a better ground game than Mario (due to reach). Sadly, we are out match in the air (besides having better priority minus Upair) due this Mario's Air Speed and Combo Potential.

Also, Yoshi mains - Are you guys sure your Double Jump has Super Armor and not Heavy Armor? I know I have knocked a few Yoshis out of his DJ with Bair. Even the Armor and Invincible announced it as Heavy Armor. I'm just curious

I'm fully aware that Mario's up-smash has invincibility. The game tells you that. And how weak are his Fireballs if they can be stopped by Kirby's jab? And I hope you don't mean clashing with the Fireball.

 

[GSM_Dren]

He doesn't know...

jk but thanks a lot for your post, it was helpful. I'll get to watching those matches now :O

Can you get some other Yoshis in here to comment? I think we're all pretty much in agreement that Yoshi wins the matchup, I'd just like to hear from as many people as possible, and I didn't want to spam their boards Embarrass

Yes you're right, D-throw no combo (I was probably thinking from brawl lol). I'll try get more yoshis on board.

Also, Yoshi mains - Are you guys sure your Double Jump has Super Armor and not Heavy Armor? I know I have knocked a few Yoshis out of his DJ with Bair. Even the Armor and Invincible announced it as Heavy Armor. I'm just curious

Sorry yeah that's what I meant. It's heavy armor, not super armor. Based on his % you can knock him out while he DJs.

 

[Sinister Slush]

There's unfortunately no Kirby mains in my city nor have I played a single kirby on for glory.
I did notice how a CPU kirby can duck under Yoshi's jab... that's something right?

 

[Aunt Jemima]

I did notice how a CPU kirby can duck under Yoshi's jab... that's something right?

Kirby wins this match-up now, sorry.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

I've played only a handful of good Kirbys, and they were all on wifi, so take all this with a grain of salt. I will say that Kirby's duck threw me off a few times... and that inhale pretty effectively stuffs a lot of our approaches. But, alas, the burden of approach does not lie with Yoshi in this matchup, since eggs devastate characters with slow air speed thanks to our ability to create frame traps out of air-dodges.

Like what has been stated already, going off-stage vs. Yoshi is best done sparingly. If you can bait an airdodge out, you might be able to punish it with a Bair, but unless you get lucky or the Yoshi makes a very serious error, the most you should expect out of it is some damage. It probably won't break super armor, so I wouldn't count on a stage spike.

Being so floaty, Kirby can pick his approach angles pretty well, so try to come at Yoshi from behind his head whenever possible. Almost all of his anti-air starts in front of him, like up-tilt, up-smash and down-B. That said, with Yoshi's superior ground-speed and eggs, it'll be hard to corner him unless you can bait out a whiff.

I don't envy you this match-up, honestly.

 

[Delta-cod]

Adding onto the "duck under jab" shenanigans, I think Kirby's landing animations also put him under some of our moves, because he flattens himself against the ground. I've definitely whiffed some stuff because of it. It's nonsense, I tell ya!

Admittedly, I have absolutely zero experience against a real Kirby, but if my Brawl experience is enough, I think your best bet might be to stay grounded in neutral and rely on your short stature, actually. Being short makes our aerial approaches tough, it limits potential egg toss angles, makes aerial egg lay nearly worthless, and you might be able to duck under dash grab. If you can be patient on the ground, this MU might not be as impossible as you think. We can't just run to the side and throw eggs forever, and if you can just DUCK our grounded zone breaker (dash grab), we could be in trouble.

I'm not sure how our frame data on your shield pans out, but it might mean grounded pokes aren't good for us either. Keep in mind that our pivot grab is atrocious now, so we can't just throw it out to beat approaches anymore. I definitely recommend walking and crouching to force us into a bad spot. I don't think this MU is as bad as you all think...

 

[Slice~]

I got a really strong Kirby in my list.
I'll try to make him play some games today, so I can give you some fresh info.

But overall it really seems like Kirby has some big troubles with Yoshi.

 

[HeroMystic]

There's unfortunately no Kirby mains in my city nor have I played a single kirby on for glory.
I did notice how a CPU kirby can duck under Yoshi's jab... that's something right?

Well there's Chuy, but I only played him once and there's no way that's enough to give a good analysis.

I will say people should really stop underestimating Mario's fireballs.

 

[Lukingordex]

- Yoshi really likes FD and does not like stages with a lot of platforms, as they block his eggs and down Bs.

I disagree with this.

I don't want to discuss it with you here because this isn't the place, but we can talk about it later.

 

[Delta-cod]

So, in the interest of acquiring more knowledge about this MU, I'm willing to try some WiFi with all of you Kirbies. I'll be available for the next 2 hours or so (Midnight central time), so just send me a message/reply to let me know.

My NNID is Phikarp

Edit: To clarify, I meant a Smashboards message. I'm not even sure if you can receive NNID messages or something, and I'm certainly not sitting at my Wii U right now.