The True Arena - Kirby Match-Up/Stage Discussion (Discussing: Villager!)

[t!MmY]

I see I forgot to give a ratio for my write-up with Sheik. Right now I'd be fine saying it's 50:50 since it generally comes down to whomever gets that last winning hit. However, I wouldn't be surprised to see it change to 45:55 in Sheik's advantage as the match-ups start to mesh out. Sheik's top-tier for a reason.

 

[Chef Kirby]

For Sheik its pretty even imo. Sheik's fair strings aren't true combos. Due to Kirby's floatiness and light weight, Sheik's combos won't be as effective. Sheik is a fast faller so she's easily comboed by kirby so kirby can do lots of damage. We can also crouch under her needles which is really handy. She has a decent recovery but if you get an offstage spike, she'll probably won't be coming back. Kirby also can kill her at 90 percent and even lower due to her light weight. Sheik has low kill power but we're even lighter so she'll be able to kill us at decent percents but at higher percents than we can her. She can still do a lot of damage fast which isn't good for us. Also always be aware that she has bouncing fish which is strong and safe. Try to not be close to the blastzones on the side because a bouncing fish can kill us.

As for his copy ability, it helps us get a good projectile and improves kirbys camping abilities. Its not required but it's pretty useful imo.

Overall I would call this a 50 - 50

 

[WootSnorlax]

Sheik vs. Kirby

Sheik is a character that is known to have really good combo ability. The combination of crazy mobility and fast aerials really allow her to get the most out of her punishes. Even though she seems like an unstoppable character her fault is that she does not have any easy kill moves. Normal weighted characters can even last up to 160% before losing their first stock. A good Sheik though would not allow that to happen. With her fast aerials she is able to gimp people off the stage and also make it back with relative ease due to her above average recovery.

Pros:

This is already what makes this matchup in Kirby’s favor. The fact that Sheik usually relies on offstage aerials to be able to kill her enemies makes it difficult for her when it comes to characters with multiple jumps. With the combination of jumps and airdodges it is difficult for her to predict what will happen next. Basically, we are hard to gimp.

Sheik has limited kill options from the stage. Her kill moves are bair, uair, upsmash, fsmash, and bouncing fish. Keep in mind that these won’t kill until high enough percentages. Kirby has a big advantage against Sheik’s fsmash. Because of Kirby’s small stature and floatiness, at high percentages if Sheik fsmashes the first hit of it can knock Kirby away from the second hit. Not only that, Kirby can duck under the second hit of the fsmash. Of course if the second part of the fsmash lands it will probably KO Kirby, but the chances of that are pretty slim so I’d rule out fsmash as even being a viable kill option against Kirby. As stated before, with multiple jumps it is hard to follow up into a bair or uair to kill Kirby. Bair also requires a pretty high amount of percentage to be able to kill.

Sheik is also the 12th lightest character in the game. We can easily punish with a kill if she slips up at high percentage while Sheik has to really play with her cards to get that final hit. You can punish her if she ever whiffs any smash attacks, dairs, burst grenades, or bouncing fishes. Obviously there are other things, but they are mostly read related and may not lead to an easy kill.

While also being pretty light she also falls pretty fast. Utilt can combo up to 30% for free if connected starting at 0%. Kirby can also juggle sheik a bit making it difficult for her to be able to come back to the neutral game.

Crouching hurts her a lot also even if it doesn’t seem so. It definitely makes it difficult for a Sheik to choose approaching options. You can crouch under her jab1+2, standing grab, most of her short hop aerials, needles, and her second hit of fsmash. Crouching as Kirby also makes it very difficult for any person to space and choose attacks. For some reason, many Kirby players here hardly ever utilize crouch -> dtilt even though it is an amazing option against many characters. When you mix up Shielding, Jumping, and Crouching it really puts you in charge of the match. You can punish with a grab, aerial, or dtilt accordingly. I can’t count the amount of times I’ve dtilted into an fsmash to win a match.

If we get an inhale we have needles so we can camp it out too. Not too big of a pro because you have to get an inhale.

Cons:

Kirby can be combo’d of course. But not entirely because of how floaty he is. It’s still doable for Sheik so I have to give it to her.

Kirby also has a hard time getting back to the ground. Once propped into the air Sheik has control over Kirby. The Kirby has to correctly predict whether an uair, nair, fair, bair, or a bait punish is coming through. Kirby’s aerials can’t beat some of the options when coming down and his air mobility makes it difficult to just avoid stuff. Granted he does have multiple jumps and airdodges it’s still difficult to deal with.

We play the 3rd lightest character in the game.

Her amazing recovery makes it hard to gimp her. It’s not impossible, but it’s difficult and gimping is one of the core aspects of Kirby's game.

-

Overall I personally feel like sheik is a good matchup for Kirby. I played against many Sheiks and I really feel like I can control the match over her. I think it's a 55/45 matchup in Kirby's favor. I would rate it higher, but lets keep it safe and simple for now.

 

[KenMeister]

As someone who plays Sheik alot, I can definitely say people reeeeally underrate Kirby and tend to get mauled alot because of this matchup. I think the main thing Kirby has going for him is his far superior up-close boxing game, as Sheik doesn't really do a good job keeping Kirby off her, or dealing with it vice-versa. Our jab gets DI'd out of too easily, ftilt is next to useless since Kirby is floaty and it doesn't do good enough KB to keep him off, and dtilt is hard to land consistently when you're going against a character who's small and has a really good shield. Our best aerials, nair and fair also get beaten by Kirby's, since ours deal low damage outside of bair, which ends up being an unfavorable trade anyway (I don't count dair). In general, I think it's harder for us to punish because of priority and Kirby's general floatiness and size, so it's best for us to remain defensive as possible, zoning with bair and charging needles, which is okay for us to do since Kirby's mobility can't catch up with us on bigger stages.

 

[Agent Emerald]

A lot of stuff has already been said, so I'll just put my two cents in:

Sheik can combo, but can't combo Kirby as well as others. Add this and a lack of effective kill moves makes Sheik one of the few characters that Kirby can effectively rage on.

Kirby is in a similar position, but has a slightly harder time combing, but has kill moves to compensate for it

Mobilitywise, Kirby is outclassed. Sheik is overall faster, and has some insane attack speeds and about as much landing lag on all aerials bar Dair as the Xbox one has games. It should be noted that Kirby has his fair share of fast attacks as well.

Few Sheiks use grenades, which seem to actually put Kirby in a bad spot. The vacuum is somewhat and does damage (why) and the explosion has kill potiental. Once in a blue moon Sheik will make her best Little Mac imitation and Side B off stage, which leaves her helpless. Funny how Zelda has the same thing.

In general, A pretty even matchup when speed is ignored. 45:55 in Sheik's favor, 40:60 on a bad day.

 

[MikeKirby]

I'd like to cosign EVERYTHING t!MmY said on the match-up, wow. He just literally wrote the match-up guide. I believe this is also 50/50. One extra thing that I'd like to point out is; B-air is risky at neutral. A wiff or hit on shield and Shiek can dash attack you as a punish, EVERYTIME! It's the most annoying thing. However, not many Shieks know this but they'll catch on eventually.

 

[t!MmY]

Slight Disadvantage (40:60)​

An argument could be made that the match-up is less in Kirby's favor straying into the "Moderate Disadvantage" (35:65 to 30:70), but I feel like the match-up either is not as bad as people make it or that the current meta has not quite reached that level of Diddy domination. I'm optimistic that this match-up might even prove to be close to 45:55 with enough R&D from the Kirby side of things.

However you look at it, even a moderate disadvantage against such a 'tournament threat' as Diddy is entirely winnable.

General Match-up
Diddy and Kirby are somewhat similar: they're both 'brawler' types that deal the bulk of their damage up close and personal. This is good news for Kirby since he traditionally has had trouble dealing with disjoints and projectile camping. Their air mobility is also relatively similar, and while Diddy may be faster on the ground it is not to such a degree as to make it especially difficult for Kirby to keep up with.

While Diddy is on the lighter side weight-wise, he is not 'floaty' which will give Kirby ample opportunity to take advantage of his combo game. Juggling Diddy with U-tilt is not difficult, and following up after juggles is feasible even after laying some damage on him. Diddy's light weight gives Kirby KO opportunity with his Smash Attacks or B-air without having to hope for bad DI or to have to deal heavy damage.

On the flip side, Diddy has a few attacks in his repertoire with deceptively good range such as F-air, D-tilt, and the infamous U-air. Diddy can also pull out most of his moves extremely quickly, which is something quite detrimental to a Kirby trying to beat him to the punch. This combination of speed and range give Diddy strong options against most of Kirby's offensive or defensive game.

Most of Diddy's strategy will revolve around his Grab game. By itself it's a good option since Diddy can force the opponent to Shield often, usually with his quick pokes or with the threat of a banana peel in hand. Not only does he have opportunities for a good Grab game, he has a strong Grab game.

Diddy's D-throw is already well-known to Smashers around the world for it's quick execution and its easy conversion into various Aerial Attacks (specifically U-air). It's speed gives the opponent precious little time to react with proper DI and the follow-ups can either rack up damage (B-air to B-air at low percents) or outright KO (that U-air).

The Neutral Game
The main reason this match-up is not too bad for Kirby is because he can hold his own in the Neutral Game fairly well. Diddy has two 'ranged' options at his disposal during Neutral and those are his Peanut Pop-gun and his Banana Peel. Kirby is somewhat limited and will either try to close the distance or play the waiting game.

If Diddy goes for a banana peel this gives Kirby the opportunity to close the distance and try to get some stage control or pressure Diddy with threat of attack. If Diddy is far enough away to use Peanut Pop-gun (usually because he already has a banana peel in hand), this gives cause for Kirby to respond.

The general tactics to use against Peanut Pop-gun are: Shield, Jump, Duck, Item Grab or attack the peanut. It's usually a good idea to go for an 'Item Grab' and catch the peanut out of the air - this will eliminate the peanut threat and give Kirby a handy item at the same time. Staying back and being defensive can work if you want Diddy to be the one on the offense - Shielding or attacking the peanut works fine for this. In fact, Kirby's Inhale works great as an attack against incoming peanuts since they heal 1% each swallow (just mind the recovery time when eating peanuts since Diddy can take advantage of that). Jumping over one peanut works well, but chances are Diddy will fire another one right behind. In this case you can perform a Mid-air Item Catch as you approach.

Similar tactics can be employed against Diddy's banana peel. The difference here is that Diddy can use banana peels with greater offensive options: if you Shield he can run in and Grab (or feint a Grab), if you Jump he can strike with Aerial Attacks (or pressure you from beneath). Inhaling a banana peel is not generally a good idea because Diddy will usually be on the offense and swallowing gives him too big of an opportunity to punish. Catching banana peels is a great tactic. Doing so will eliminate Diddy's strongest ranged advantage, putting it literally in Kirby's hands.

While you carry Diddy's banana peel he will be unable to generate another one. Banana peels go right through Peanuts and will usually hit and trip Diddy while he's recovering from the shot. This means that while Kirby has a banana peel, he generally has a superior position in the Neutral Game.

Diddy's pressure in the Neutral is decent since he is able to mix it up with very quick attacks (U-tilt, D-tilt, throwing a peel), slower attacks with more range/power (F-tilt, F-smash, D-smash), or going for a Grab. Kirby's pressure is a little less threatening since his Tilts are shorter-ranged and his Smashes done have as much range/power, but the speed of Kirby's attacks can be a threatening presence to Diddy. Kirby also gets as much - and in many cases - more damage off his hits and combos than Diddy does.

One thing to watch out for is Diddy's Monkey Flip. This mix-up can 'grab' you from a good distance away, deals decent damage, and is hard to punish. Whenever Diddy wants to punish a Shield, he can launch himself at Kirby. This mix-up can be mixed-up even more by the fact that it can be changed into a kick. This means that even if you're predicting a Monkey Flip or even reacting to the Monkey Flip, you have to guess if it's going to be a kick (Shield) or a grab (don't Shield). Often times Diddy will use a Monkey Flip when he has a banana peel in hand and expects you to put up a Shield in response - so keep an eye out for it!

Kirby at Disadvantage
Diddy will usually be putting Kirby into a disadvantageous position by keeping him under pressure of attack or threat of attack. When at a distance Diddy is trying to force Kirby to take damage with Peanuts or Banana Peels, or, at the least, force him into a more defensive position. This kind of pressure can create openings that Diddy can take advantage of, such as grabbing a Shielding opponent, striking a poorly placed Dodge, or intercepting an airborne opponent off-guard.

Diddy's pressure isn't limited to peanuts and banana peels, he has some good spacing tools. One of his prime spacing tools on the ground is his D-tilt. It's fast, hard to punish, and reaches a good distance in front of him. Moreover, if one hits it can lead into a strong advantage: at low percents additional D-tilts can chained together or a Grab mix-up can selected in case the opponent tries to Shield; at higher percents D-tilt can lead to a U-smash or U-air follow-up which will usually result in a KO on Kirby.

Aerial pressure is another option since Diddy has an excellent aerial game. His F-air can beat out many of Kirby attacks and can be Auto-Canceled on a Short Hop even with a Fast Fall option. B-air works the same as F-air but with less range and less damage output. The B-air, however, is much quicker than a F-air to the point that Diddy can throw a second B-air out of a Short Hop before touching the ground. This lets him string together multiple B-airs with a Hit-Confirm, gives him additional pressure with the threat of a possible second B-air, or allows him to Fast Fall and go back to his ground-based options.

One of Diddy's most threatening attack is his U-air. It's extremely quick, very safe, has excellent range, and can be combo'd from multiple set-ups. It's such a generally strong threat that it must be taken into account at practically any given point in the game. It can be used to build damage, to go for KOs, to force Air Dodges, to punish Air Dodges, etc. In fact, it's this singular attack that pushes the match-up in Diddy's favor. Without his U-air the match-up with Kirby would be even at best and most likely in Kirby's favor.

Off Stage Disadvantage
When Kirby is sent off-stage but not outright KO'd and Diddy is still on-stage, this is where Kirby has "Off-Stage Disadvantage". In general Diddy is not especially dangerous off-stage against Kirby, but it's still not a good position to be in and Diddy still has things to watch out for.

For the most part, Kirby will not have too difficult of a time getting back to the stage as long as he has multiple jumps available to him. Just watch to see what Diddy is doing - often Diddy will simply take the opportunity to spawn a banana or to shoot Peanuts as Kirby returns to the Stage. There's always the chance that Diddy will go aggressive off-stage in which case he will likely try to connect with a F-air or U-air though especially cheeky monkeys will try to go for the dunk with D-air as well.

Do your best to avoid any off-stage attacks and make it back to the stage. If Diddy whiffs any of his attacks off-stage he generally puts himself into a very bad position. At this point Kirby can stay off stage and try for some off-stage offense of his own, or he can simply get back to the stage where he will then have a stronger position.​

Kirby at Advantage
The favorable position Kirby has with Diddy is within close proximity, preferably with Diddy facing away from Kirby. It doesn't matter too much if Kirby is facing Diddy or if he is facing away from Diddy since U-tilt hits behind Kirby and is often times the preferred attack to land. When up-close to Diddy, Kirby has most of his options available to him and choosing which one generally depends on what percent Diddy is.

At lower percents Kirby will usually want to land a U-tilt or Grab. At higher percents Kirby will usually have to settle for safer attacks that either lead to stronger advantage (U-tilt, F-tilt) or play it safe with pokes (Jab, D-tilt). Grab is a good go-to for mix-ups or for Out-of-Shield punishes.

Kirby's prime combo game is generally when Diddy is at 0% to 18%. Due to Diddy's vertical physics (weight, gravity, whatever), Kirby can usually combo multiple U-tilts together to build up damage. Finishing the juggle with an Aerial Attack works well, as does going for a 'hard read' and punishing Air Dodges or reckless attacks. Catching Diddy with a Grab at this percent range can lead to a "B-throw to B-air" combo. D-tilt is another possibility since it is a nice poke and can force a Trip for a good follow-up opportunity.

As the damage builds on Diddy combos mostly give way to follow-ups, mix-ups, or general positional advantage. For instance, launching Diddy with a strong U-tilt while he's at 50% might lead to a U-air follow-up, but it can also work quite well as general positional advantage allowing you to benefit from how Diddy chooses to respond to a potential follow-up. The higher the damage Diddy has on him the more beneficial it is to use safer attacks such as Jab, D-tilt, and F-tilt. U-tilt works as a safe attack, but it loses it's combo potential and should be weighed against other options (such as F-tilt or Grab) which may lead to a stronger positional advantage.

Don't play 'too safe' too often. Mix-ups are very important against Diddy since he's going to be using them against you as well - you don't want to be too predictable in your offense or defense. Prudent use of Aerial Attacks helps keep the opponent off-balance and keeps your approaches fresh. Aerial attacks can be as aggressive or offensive as the situation merits, such as risky D-air to catch a presumed Spot-Dodge or a retreating F-air to check the opponent's Shield. Aerial Attacks are also a better risk to take when Diddy is armed with a banana peel because even if Kirby is hit with the peel while airborne he cannot trip.

When Diddy hits 'KO potential' levels of damage (usually 100% and up), that's when Kirby can feasibly go for KO attacks. Of course you don't want to rush headlong at Diddy and start using Hammers and Forward Smashes. Such brute force is generally shut down by even novice players. Instead, be patient and punish with your strong attacks when the occasion presents itself. When erring at high percents, it's better to err with a safer attack than with a laggy one. If you want to play it safe and still go for KOs, your best bet is B-air (usually a retreating B-air) or to build the damage until you can KO with B-throw. Waiting too long to get the KO has it's own risks though since Diddy with Rage can be a very intimidating force to reckon with.

Off Stage Advantage
This is a very favorable position to be in for Kirby. Kirby's options are plentiful but you have to respond appropriately to your opponent's attempts at recovery. Generally opponents can recover high, go directly for the ledge, or go low and then try to recover up to the ledge vertically.

If Diddy recovers overhead there's isn't much Kirby can do as far as gimping him goes, but you can follow Diddy's attempt to get back onto the stage and build some damage on him. Catching him with Aerial Attacks works fine, or you can opt to catch him when he lands with whatever you can (generally a Dashing Grab works well as you follow him around).

Catching Diddy when he tries to go directly for the ledge is a little harder since Kirby's air speed is sub-par and Diddy gets a good boost when using Monkey Flip. D-air works great on Diddy, but the start-up makes it difficult to pull off. If you don't have much time to fight off-stage - or you would prefer not to take the risk - you can always go for a "Ledge Trump" and knock him off the edge as soon as he grabs it. Bumping Diddy off the ledge sets him up great for a B-air.

Recovering low for Diddy is a bad idea for Diddy, but a prime opportunity for Kirby. This is especially true when Diddy is recovering against a wall (as seen on many Omega stages). Kirby has plenty of choices for Diddy in this regard: N-air, F-air, B-air, and even Stone. Which one to use depends on the occassion. N-air works well to knock Diddy out of his Rocket Jet, tumbling to his doom. F-air and B-air are used for hitting Diddy against the Stage, or even for an outright KO out of bounds. Stone is a strong attack, but it has a vertical knockback which means you only want to use this if you think it will outright KO.​

 

[Vinylic.]

Using bananas to make glide tosses is so much better too. You can pull off any smash attack or grab faster than he can recover.
Throwing it while running won't do it. If you're running, you HAVE to do a glide toss or you will not be able to hit your slipped as he recovers.

Throwing a banana and short jumping at the same time can be followed with dair and so forth. For me, I'd also like to copy and use peanuts while he's off stage you can recover easily, so shooting peanuts midair is great.

 

[WootSnorlax]

@ t!MmY Man you were prepared for this writeup. Everything is basically covered here!

 

[Macchiato]

Welp, T!mmy got the Diddy Match up. I honestly don't think there's anything else

 

[Zethoro]

Well, I was going to throw in my two cents, but I'm pretty sure @ t!MmY just robbed them from me (and all of us), invested them in stocks, and made millions.
Good job, you got it covered completely. I'd personally say the MU is a 35:65 in Diddy's favor.

 

[KenMeister]

Hey Timmy, I was looking

For Sheik its pretty even imo. Sheik's fair strings aren't true combos. Due to Kirby's floatiness and light weight, Sheik's combos won't be as effective. Sheik is a fast faller so she's easily comboed by kirby so kirby can do lots of damage. We can also crouch under her needles which is really handy. She has a decent recovery but if you get an offstage spike, she'll probably won't be coming back. Kirby also can kill her at 90 percent and even lower due to her light weight. Sheik has low kill power but we're even lighter so she'll be able to kill us at decent percents but at higher percents than we can her. She can still do a lot of damage fast which isn't good for us. Also always be aware that she has bouncing fish which is strong and safe. Try to not be close to the blastzones on the side because a bouncing fish can kill us.

As for his copy ability, it helps us get a good projectile and improves kirbys camping abilities. Its not required but it's pretty useful imo.

Overall I would call this a 50 - 50

She has Bouncing Fish and wall-clinging. She'd have to be super far for that edgeguard to be effective.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Sorry I didn't update this last week, guys. I realized on Wednesday I forgot to update it, and decided it'd be better to wait for next week to start this going again. However, @ t!MmY 's write-up on Diddy can count as last week.

This week... I guess we can do Pikachu? I'm not sure who we should do, but Pikachu comes to mind as a big contender in this game.

 

[Macchiato]

Sorry I didn't update this last week, guys. I realized on Wednesday I forgot to update it, and decided it'd be better to wait for next week to start this going again. However, @ t!MmY 's write-up on Diddy can count as last week.

This week... I guess we can do Pikachu? I'm not sure who we should do, but Pikachu comes to mind as a big contender in this game.

Lets do Zelda! I'm very experienced in this matchup and also main zelda along side with kirby and rosie

 

[Unknownkid]

A little be late to the Diddy matchup. But as everyone said, t!MmY cover it. I just want to drop this video here. NAKAT made Anti - Diddy guide with general information to keep in mind.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IrPc9N1qIs
If you cannot watch the video here are thing I found interesting:
-Unlike Brawl, Diddy's Side B has ending lag. So if you predict his Side B on the ground, spot dodge it and punish the lag.
-Don't respect the Up B when Diddy charging it. We have 5 jumps. Take advantage it.
-Also, since we have multiple jumps, try away DI and jumping instead of Air Dodging after a Dthrow.
Here are few notes from Ninja Link (since I follow his stream too).
-He actually believe Diddy has terrible grab range and neutral game (I believe he comparing to his Megaman)
-Bananas pretty easy to destroy by most of characters jabs.
-You can do aerials with Bananas/Metal Blade/items by Z-Dropping then press C-Stick in the direction and catch the banana again.

I believe we should do either Pikachu, Sonic, or Rosalina?

 

[t!MmY]

With Apex coming up, we should stick with the presumed 'high tiers'. Those that give Kirby some trouble would probably be a good idea to start. I'd suggest: :

 

[Macchiato]

Peach is a supposed high tier and are very common nowadays.

 

[Unknownkid]

With Apex coming up, we should stick with the presumed 'high tiers'. Those that give Kirby some trouble would probably be a good idea to start. I'd suggest: :

How about Luigi?

 

[Wrexsoul]

Rosalina would be pretty awesome to cover. Feels like a really hard matchup to me.

 

[Macchiato]

I also main Rosie so I could definitely help with this Matchup

 

[chaosmasterro]

Another suggestion is to discuss the villager matchup. I think kirby is completely walled by his projectiles and is forced to approach.

 

[Agent Emerald]

I would really like to talk about the Shulk matchup because I have quite a bit to say on it, but a Rosaluma is fine too.

 

[Macchiato]

Many people agree with Rosie. @ Aunt Jemima so are we doing Rosie?

 

[EMPEROR Eevee]

I feel we should talk about Sonic. That character has been given me alot of trouble as of late.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Many people agree with Rosie. @ Aunt Jemima so are we doing Rosie?

Yeah, we'll do her.

 

[Macchiato]

Neutral game
Rosalina's moves are really safe due to all the disjoints in her moves. Kirby must be super cautious in this MU, whenever there's an opening, go for a grab because Kirby can get good mileage off one. Kirby has to play a defensive waiting game. A fair or spaced bair is really useful since luma can shield and getting rid off luma can give kirby easier approaching abilities due to rosalinas lack of range without Luma. Rosie's pressure game is great due to her jab and the ability to wall out characters with luma jabbing. Nair when they are in lag since its super safe and low ending lag. If luma is gone, try to get a utilt to juggle and possibly kill her with that opening. Stone can be useful since luma can't shield and can quickly get rid of him

Offstage game
Kirby can easily abuse Rosie when she's off stage. Rosie's recovery has no hitbox so basically she's a sitting duck. Her aerials can't be used offstage unless Kirby's right above him which we shouldn't be. When you see Rosie using her recovery, she'll probably go for the edge which is predictable and we can easily dair. This is where Kirby shines in the MU

Killing
Fsmash is her strongest move only if she has Luma. It is kills crazy early and has far range. Without luma, Rosalina has trouble killing. She kills around how early kills her which is 90%. Uair can kill even earlier than Fsmash so don't be on platformed stages. The best method to kill is a dair to smash, or ledge trump to bair, or just bair. Bair is probably the best kill move her since again she doesn't have options recovering.

Copy Ability
Its pretty useful since it gives kirby some kind of projectile and can kill super early. It can punish landings and its just funny mocking Rosie that Kirby can summon Lumas right away whenever he wants and she can't.

Stages
Don't go on platformed stages since rosalina gets more utility with them since her uair (lumas hit) could possibly kill at 30 when they're high up. Also don't on stages with low ceilings and low blastzones. I think we should go on FD or Kongo Jungle. Ban Battlefield, Halberd, and Delfino.

Score
I would say that its a small advantage for Rosie, I say its 4-6 Rosie.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Alright, sorry for the delayed update. Here's the schedule for the rest of January:

1/12/15 ~ 1/18/15 - and

1/19/15 ~ 1/25/15 - and

1/26/15 ~ 2/1/5 - and

 

[PSIBoy]

Alright, sorry for the delayed update. Here's the schedule for the rest of January:

1/12/15 ~ 1/18/15 - and

1/19/15 ~ 1/25/15 - and

1/26/15 ~ 2/1/5 - and

Ness? I'm a Ness main too. If anyone wants some experience, I'll be free starting tomorrow until Monday, for the most part.

So Ness... Well, his f-air is disjoined, n-air being quick, and u-air and b-air being good KO moves. I'd say you're not gonna win an aerial battle unless you're really careful, or spam b-air, or get below him. Ness can't get at you easily from below. He's no slouch on the ground either, having one of the best grab games in the game. F-throw is not too threatening outside stage control, u-throw expect a u-air or PK Thunder follow-up, d-throw will probably mean f-air x 3 at lower percents, and also going into u-air later on. The infamous b-throw can KO you around 100 at soonest at the edge. PK Fire is easily punishable if it misses, but you have to be close to him or read his method of evasion, but it sets up into grab, or maybe f-smash or even PK Thunder 2, which KO's at like 40.

Ness's jab is decent, f-tilt is decent, d-tilt is horrible, u-tilt is mainly anti-air, and dash attacks lasts a while and has three hits. Ness's Smash attacks are slow and not that good, but f-smash is powerful, d-smash can KO after 100 if you're not careful, and u-smash is not that good. Special moves: PK Flash is only practical in edge-guarding situations, but it can catch an opponent and force their hand when they have only one way of recovering. Whether you copy this or not is up to you. PSI Magnet is practically useless in this matchup, so don't worry about that. PK Fire was already discussed, and PK Thunder 1 can juggle you, but rarely ever gimps you since 5 midair jumps... PK Thunder 2 is his recovery: Ness has to be precise when he aims to get to the ledge. Do not intercept this unless you are confident in survival, and he's far enough away since getting hit reduces it's range by half. Do not bother trying to intercept the ball unless he is bringing it behind him: it passes through opponents in the first second. Instead, drop on him with stone or something to disrupt his recovery.

Unfortunately, I have not gotten very many Ness/Kirby matches, so I am unfamiliar with how their attacks clash. Just some general info on Ness.

 

[Luco]

Unfortunately because of Kirby's weight he'll be dying from a Bthrow at the edge considerably before 100%, like with good DI you'll still probably die by the mid 90's% unfortunately, even earlier with rage.

I haven't really played against a competitive kirby; but I'd like to! That said I'm here in Aus so although the connection isn't bad, it can still be a bit awkward for some people. Up to you peeps whether you'd like to try it out, I suspect we win this MU due to aerial dominance but I'd be interested in your interpretation of it ^_^

 

[Agent Emerald]

Ness' dtilt and usmash aren't bad. They're both good disrupters, dtilt chaining into ftilt or jab and usmash punishing most actions on ground and covering Ness's body.

With Rosalina, It is highly recommended to copy her in the rare case that if you charge Luma and Rosa responds with her own, they've put themself in a bad position.

 

[PKBeam]

ok Kirby specific advice?
keep to the ground. Ness won't trash Kirby in the air but it's much better for you down low because as soon you jump you are dealing with two KO moves and one frame 5 hitbox. on the ground, avoid PKF and don't use unsafe moves on shield.

as soon as you hit 90 you are in danger of getting Bthrow'd. don't fall for pivot grabs, when spotdodging or rolling do so sparingly and smartly. incorporate simple jumps and running away from shield instead.

as for kill moves... kill moves, kill moves... as an approximation, from midstage, I would say

Spoiler

30 - PKT2 sweetspot
40 - fully charged Flash
70 - tipper fsmash, Uair (air)
80 - Fsmash
100 - Bair
110 - Bthrow, Uair (ground)
120 - Nair, Dsmash, Usmash

ok, for the first two, don't mess with them. if you're only 40% sure you can punish, don't go for it, because if you whiff, that will be the percentage that marks the end of your stock. seriously. you don't want to trade Flash for the first few hits of dash attack.

as for kirby killing i'm pretty sure a gimp or dair setup is the best option. otherwise a surprise Fsmash or a Usmash to punish a landing are next up.

offstage? kirby has the tools to gimp ness so if you're gonna try for a gimp, do it quickly and aim true because if you miss, you won't get another try. when offstage, Nair and Fair give Kirby a hard time because of his tendency to rely on jumps to recover. just avoid them and be prepared to DI Nair upwards because without it a lucky hit can score a KO at 100.

i believe Ness has a slight edge in this MU (+1 or to be precise, 53:47) because:
1. his kill options outshade Kirby's by just a bit (probably, im not sure exactly how well Dair works on Ness)
2. he has a definite advantage in the air

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Rosalina main reporting in.

I'll be blunt. I've never faced a Kirby online that gave me any trouble. That said, I haven't faced a whole lot of Kirbies to begin with so...yeah.

Basically I think Rosalina covers too much space for Kirby to easily get in. She has disjoints out the wazoo on several attacks, and Luma just adds to that. Meanwhile Kirby relies on his fairly stubby feet. I'm sure he has good followups if he gets a decent hit in, but that's a big if.

You do have a decent selection of moves that can disrupt Luma, though. Final Cutter's shockwave, dash attack and Stone aren't really threats to Rosalina herself but Luma has no defensive abilities whatsoever. Shield pressure in general also tends to hit Luma away. Stone also means we have to respect you while juggling, which limits one of Rosalina's key strategies.

I heard that if you copy Rosalina, your own Luma Shot has a hidden cooldown. I haven't tested this myself though. Rosalina's Luma Shot grants invincibility to Luma when released from full charge, which I assume applies to Kirby too. Since a copied Luma Shot doesn't give you a Luma of your own, its best use is as a short range projectile when uncharged, or a powerful landing trap when fully charged. (I highly doubt Rosalina can Gravitational Pull it.) Remember that a fully charged Luma Shot kills at relatively low percent.

Rosalina has the advantage here, I'm just not sure what the exact ratio should be.

 

[Asdioh]

It has maybe 3 seconds of hidden cooldown did you hear that from me?
The thing about the Rosalina matchup is that she's prone to juggles when in the air. Even though her Dair outprioritizes Kirby's Upair, he's pretty good at baiting and punishing it because he can float around and wait. Kirby's great at edgeguarding her. She's ultra floaty so she can change her timing when recovering, but if Kirby is patient he easily has the tools to wait and punish her eventual UpB.

Kirby's Luma power is amazing. I did not realize her Luma Shot gives invincibility at full charge, that's good to know. From what I understand though, Kirby's Luma Shot beats hers in all other circumstances. It is a powerful landing trap (more powerful against her than it is against Kirby, again because of 5 aerial jumps,) it cannot be Gravitational Pulled, and it will always hit her Luma even if she blocks it or whatever. I would be willing to bet that Kirby with Rosalina's power has a clear advantage in the matchup. The problem is actually getting the power. Jumping Inhale custom makes this a bit easier, if customs are on.

Anyway, I haven't played too many Rosalinas since the WiiU release, but I haven't had too much trouble with the ones I have. I'd love to play you @ ParanoidDrone if you wanna do wifi. We can test out the Luma Shot stuff and play some matches. I don't really know what to say about the rest of the matchup, technically most of Rosalina's moves beat Kirby's moves outright, due to her disjoints, but that's the case with practically every character in the game as far as Kirby's concerned, it seems. His job isn't to trade attacks and try to win, but to use his generally-faster attacks to punish her generally-slower ones. Both characters are light, both characters have pretty strong KO moves.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

It has maybe 3 seconds of hidden cooldown did you hear that from me?
The thing about the Rosalina matchup is that she's prone to juggles when in the air. Even though her Dair outprioritizes Kirby's Upair, he's pretty good at baiting and punishing it because he can float around and wait. Kirby's great at edgeguarding her. She's ultra floaty so she can change her timing when recovering, but if Kirby is patient he easily has the tools to wait and punish her eventual UpB.

Kirby's Luma power is amazing. I did not realize her Luma Shot gives invincibility at full charge, that's good to know. From what I understand though, Kirby's Luma Shot beats hers in all other circumstances. It is a powerful landing trap (more powerful against her than it is against Kirby, again because of 5 aerial jumps,) it cannot be Gravitational Pulled, and it will always hit her Luma even if she blocks it or whatever. I would be willing to bet that Kirby with Rosalina's power has a clear advantage in the matchup. The problem is actually getting the power. Jumping Inhale custom makes this a bit easier, if customs are on.

Anyway, I haven't played too many Rosalinas since the WiiU release, but I haven't had too much trouble with the ones I have. I'd love to play you @ ParanoidDrone if you wanna do wifi. We can test out the Luma Shot stuff and play some matches. I don't really know what to say about the rest of the matchup, technically most of Rosalina's moves beat Kirby's moves outright, due to her disjoints, but that's the case with practically every character in the game as far as Kirby's concerned, it seems. His job isn't to trade attacks and try to win, but to use his generally-faster attacks to punish her generally-slower ones. Both characters are light, both characters have pretty strong KO moves.

I may have heard it from you, I float around a lot of the competitive discussion threads even though I don't comment all that much.

Rosalina is very prone to juggles, you're right. It slipped my mind.

Like you I haven't played a whole lot of Kirbies (Kirbys?) and FG being what it is, none of them were very skilled, shall we say. My point is I'm trying to throw up a large disclaimer saying "don't shoot me if I'm bad." My NNID's the same, throw me a friend request if you want. Not sure of the best way to communicate while playing though.

 

[Agent Emerald]

I also forgot to note that Kirby can also duck under a few of Rosa's attacks and potentially trip her with Dtilt. This also applies to Luma shot IIRC.

Also, on the first page, It says Pikachu, yet it shows Ness.

 

[Asdioh]

Quick thoughts on : Kirby DIs out of PK Fire ridiculously easy, so Ness should almost never get a free grab from it. Inexperienced Ness players will try to get the grab, which is punished by DIing out and Bairing. Smarter Ness players will probably try to follow you in the air after you jump out of it.
Kirby's bthrow->bair works easily on Ness, and does a minimum of 21 damage. I'm not sure how much damage Ness' dthrow->triple fair does, but it's probably comparable, although Kirby's throw combo generally requires a lower percent.
Kirby can hit PK Thunder's ball pretty easily with just about any aerial, meaning it's easy to avoid unless Ness is carefully aiming the tail end at you.


Ok, about : I tested some things out/played some matches with ParanoidDrone. We used custom moves because they're da bess. I won't say too much about the matchup itself, but here are some facts, many of which may be known to others, but I didn't know until now:

-Kirby's Dthrow is actually useful in this matchup, for once. I believe it wasn't useful in 1.0.3, but after the Rosalina nerf, you can Dthrow->Fsmash or Dsmash Luma, to potentially KO it. It doesn't seem to work at lower percents, because Rosalina gets out of hitstun earlier, so Luma can hit you if you try to smash it.

-Kirby's Starshot DESTROYS Luma. If you manage to Inhale Rosalina, and then spit her out at Luma, it sends it flying roughly half of Smashville's length. Since it's in tumble animation, if it falls offstage, it dies instantly. The Jumping Inhale variant has much less knockback, but still sends Luma into tumble. This doesn't matter so much, because you can just Copy, and then you have a nice Luma of your own to knock her Luma away any time you want.

-Rosalina's fully charged Luma Shot has invincibility on the Luma, I didn't know this. If both characters fully charge and shoot it at each other, they'll both get hit. If not fully charged, Kirby's version will always win. If Rosalina shields a slightly-charged Luma Shot, it will still hit her Luma, and then she can punish Kirby. I think the best she can get is a grab or dash attack, so the punishment isn't too major, and might be worth it to knock Luma out.

-Kirby ducks all distances of Luma Shot, and he also ducks the speedy starbit custom. He can also occasionally DI out of her multijab.

-If Kirby's falling while charging Luma Shot, it falls with him until he shoots it. However, if it lands on a platform (such as on Battlefield) as he's falling, it stays there, and then shoots out from that height when he releases. I don't know if this is useful, but it's good to know, and kinda neat.


Umm there might have been more but I can't think of anything. Rosalina obviously beats most of Kirby's attacks because of disjoints, but he can move around her a lot more quickly and is equally threatening. They can both KO each other pretty easily because of light weight. The matchup honestly feels pretty even, it might have been bad pre-nerf, but in this version there's nothing either character has that's downright difficult to deal with.

As far as customs go, Upper Cutter's amazing for this matchup (as usual), Jumping Inhale's really good (although like I said, default Inhale has a higher chance to 1hko Luma) and the stone/hammer I guess are up to preference, though theoretically Hammer Bash KOs Rosalina super early because it's vertical knockback... I don't know how you would go about landing that move though.
For Rosalina's customs, speedy shot seems meh because Kirby can duck it, but her Floaty Star Bit (which I haven't actually seen in action before today, it's funny looking) is actually good. Guardian Luma seems like the best downB choice since Kirby has no projectile, and apparently it gives Luma invincibility briefly? That might help protect it against Kirby's Luma Shot, although it doesn't give Rosalina invincibility so she'll still get hit, oops. Luma Warp seems like an all-around really good move, so I could definitely see Rosas using that custom. As for UpB, I don't know what they would use.

 

[Unknownkid]

Rosalina
Nakat made an Anti-Rosalina Guide as well. Relax, I'm not here to promote him but that's a video to check out for General Anti- Rosalina tips.

Anyways, back to Rosy vs Kirby. Even with the "nerf" Rosy is still a character not to sleep on. Even bad Rosalinas can give you problems. Thanks to the video and several match up with friends, I develop several ways to turn the table to our favor bit.

-- Kirby can duck under several of her attacks. This include her grab, dash grab, (Untilt) Fsmash, Jab without Luma and Luma Shot (though I do not why Rosy will shot her power house).
-- Her Dash Attack is weird but good. One way to counter it is by Short Hop over Luma (since they both dip low before coming up) then Nair Rosy. Not only does this separate Rosy from Luma but you can follow up after Nair. Or else you have to shield all the hits until she finish.
-- Now what about grabs... You see the gimmick to Rosy is that Luma can act while her being held. So I advice you to not pummel (not when Luma around) - Throw immediately! Keep a sharp eye on where Luma is before the throw. If Luma is behind you, do a forward throw. If Luma is forward of you, do a back throw. You want to be away from Luma during the throws or else you will eat a smash attack. I do not recommend Upthrow or Dthow.
-- Also, while Rosalina has disjointed hitbox in her moves, they lag a bit afterwards especially her aerial moves. Try baiting the move out and punish the recovery.
-- Respect but also Disrespect Luma. Anytime Luma alone or separate from Rosy - Attack It, Destroy it or Get it off stage. Once Luma is gone... you have ~13 seconds to hassle Rosy before it comes back.

On the stage, you want to be below Rosalina as best as possible. Being above her is dangerous - Uair, Utilt, and USmash can kill you. If she reaching too much, punish her with Stone.
Off Stage you don't want to be below her- Dair is too good. I will not challenge her if Kirby is at disadvantage offstage. Focus on getting back on stage.

-- As mention before Rosy's Up B doesn't have a hit box so you can challenge her but direction and speed makes it hard to take advantage on.
-- The matchup becomes easier if you have her power (which has been mention before). I will advice you to use Luma Shot to snipe/target Luma than Rosalina. Once again, we want Luma out of the way to make the matchup easier and Luma cannot block. You have 3 seconds cooldown to try again, so use it and abuse it.

That is all I got for now. I was talk about Ness later the week.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

-Rosalina's fully charged Luma Shot has invincibility on the Luma, I didn't know this. If both characters fully charge and shoot it at each other, they'll both get hit. If not fully charged, Kirby's version will always win. If Rosalina shields a slightly-charged Luma Shot, it will still hit her Luma, and then she can punish Kirby. I think the best she can get is a grab or dash attack, so the punishment isn't too major, and might be worth it to knock Luma out.

I suspect this is because unlike Rosalina, Kirby's Luma is "fake" and isn't really a separate entity, i.e. it doesn't float around and take damage. That would make it trump the real Luma in all cases unless Rosalina fully charges it, since Kirby's lacks any sort of hurtbox to poke at. This is supported by the fact that when Rosalina charges Luma Shot, you can hit Luma to break the move; Rosalina can release it but nothing will happen. You can't do this to Kirby's Luma while he's charging.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Also, on the first page, It says Pikachu, yet it shows Ness.

Fixed, thanks! We were originally going to do Rosalina and Pikachu, but I decided I'd have the future weeks go by series.

Alright, with the permission of @ Macchiato , the Stage Discussion and MU Discussion threads will be merged. Along with the usual stuff we talk about with MUs, we'll include stages now, too.

 

[Macchiato]

Fixed, thanks! We were originally going to do Rosalina and Pikachu, but I decided I'd have the future weeks go by series.

Alright, with the permission of @ Macchiato , the Stage Discussion and MU Discussion threads will be merged. Along with the usual stuff we talk about with MUs, we'll include stages now, too.

ok I made the post you gave me into the stage discussion thing. What do you think? I would add info but I'm really tired so I'll do it tomorrow.