"The Triforce of Knowledge" Ganon's Match-Up Guide: Character Review, Kirby.

[Anomilus]

*Raises hand*

I tend to move forward with my F-Airs more often then retreating with them. I'm either one of those ballsy Ganondorfs or I'm just a reckless Ganon main. It's probably the latter, but I have a tendency to push for openings however small they seem, even with a slow character like Ganondorf. It gets me punished often, but at least I get to see at times what is and isn't punishable.

 

[Swoops]

Seems much less likely. Ganon gets fsmashed out of his shorthop, and is pretty much vulnerable during that shorthop as you have to travel such a long distance with it, and then use a laggy move to punish. Also this is just from obversation but it seems like Ganon users tends to use retreating fairs to not abuse the lag, not blindly rush a character with it, as it seems you'd have to actually predict the fsmash to, at best, trade hits with the fsmash.

At tipper range maybe, but that's why at tipper range you DJ asap to get over the hitbox of the tip. At close range, a stomp will go right over the start up of the f-smash and punish you into oblivion. But, I know a good lucario will rarely be using f-smash at close range so I'll stick to talking about tipper range.

A full jump or immediate DJ out of short hop will clear the vertical range of f-smash no problem. Distance is no problem as Ganon's f-air covers as much range if not more than Marth's f-air. Ganon users will occasionally retreat with it, but that's not to try and abuse the lag it's to make sure that the opponent is in the arch of the sweetspot so it connects with them or their shield. So Ganon users in whatever way they can to make sure the move is spaced properly. If the opponent is ahead of the shielding, the Ganon user will maybe quickly DJ and fast fall the f-air sweetspot into the opponent or opponent's shield. If sweetspot f-air connects with a shield, it has ridiculous stun and pushback, making it surprisingly safe, especially against Lucario.

We have the start up of f-smash, which is 22 frames, and then Ganon's jump, 7 frames. We have close to 15 frames in which we can react and get over the vertical range of f-smash. I don't know, maybe I'm being unrealistic but that to me seems like something that's definitely possible to react to. After the 22 frame start up, Lucario has 27 frames until he's free to shield/roll/spotdodge. We're over the move so the duration doesn't matter much. 27 frames is more than enough time to throw out our 16 frame f-air and punish.

 

[Timbers]

We have the start up of f-smash, which is 22 frames, and then Ganon's jump, 7 frames. We have close to 15 frames in which we can react and get over the vertical range of f-smash. I don't know, maybe I'm being unrealistic but that to me seems like something that's definitely possible to react to. After the 22 frame start up, Lucario has 27 frames until he's free to shield/roll/spotdodge. We're over the move so the duration doesn't matter much. 27 frames is more than enough time to throw out our 16 frame f-air and punish.

Luc's fsmash finishes on frame 44 I believe.

And yes it is a bit unrealistic. You have to think to yourself how you can possibly DJ and ff fair in the time it takes for Luc to fsmash. That's just silly. Sure you can anticipate an fsmash and fulljump an fair for whatever reason (even though the chance of that working is still slim. 7 frame jump and 16 frame fair, plus the time airborne), and then the Luc will have a field day with a big vulnerable target willingly going airborne for him.

Everything mentioned after the perfect shielding of Luc's fsmash is just silly, because your "punishment" of fsmash is going to be entirely based on prediction, rather than reaction. Unrealistic theory talk, really. It's like us talking about being able to infinitely juggle Ganon because of his crappy landing frames, so long as we're able to predict if and when you fastfall. We've got the lingering hitboxes, and the range, but being able to predict everything in this game and/or having 1 frame reaction capability does not happen here.

In regards to Ganon's fair having the range of Marth's fair, it's rather irrelevant. Marth has the ability to weave and wall fair. Ganon does not have this luxury, as he's sporting one of the worst aerial mobilities in the game.

 

[phi1ny3]

Luc's fsmash finishes on frame 44 I believe.

And yes it is a bit unrealistic. You have to think to yourself how you can possibly DJ and ff fair in the time it takes for Luc to fsmash. That's just silly. Sure you can anticipate an fsmash and fulljump an fair for whatever reason (even though the chance of that working is still slim. 7 frame jump and 16 frame fair, plus the time airborne), and then the Luc will have a field day with a big vulnerable target willingly going airborne for him.

Everything mentioned after the perfect shielding of Luc's fsmash is just silly, because your "punishment" of fsmash is going to be entirely based on prediction, rather than reaction. Unrealistic theory talk, really. It's like us talking about being able to infinitely juggle Ganon because of his crappy landing frames, so long as we're able to predict if and when you fastfall. We've got the lingering hitboxes, and the range, but being able to predict everything in this game and/or having 1 frame reaction capability does not happen here.

In regards to Ganon's fair having the range of Marth's fair, it's rather irrelevant. Marth has the ability to weave and wall fair. Ganon does not have this luxury, as he's sporting one of the worst aerial mobilities in the game.

There's a fine line between matchup discussion and player skill, so I'll not go into "the usual" scene and assume your against a godly ganon. I believe that fsmash by frame is still IASA on frame 38ish, but the kinks still need to be worked out.

 

[Timbers]

There's a fine line between matchup discussion and player skill, so I'll not go into "the usual" scene and assume your against a godly ganon. I believe that fsmash by frame is still IASA on frame 38ish, but the kinks still need to be worked out.

I'm not even sure what this means, it's humanly impossible to have 1/60th of a second reaction time.

 

[phi1ny3]

I'm not even sure what this means, it's humanly impossible to have 1/60th of a second reaction time.

I've just seen people quickly dissolve into "Oh yeah, go play so-and-so, he has a good blah-blah, and his reaction will prove otherwise", and it sometimes falls into the matter of player skill.

 

[Tosh]

I HATE that samus has such a big advantage -.- its depressing, and Sheik's advantage is bloody amazing as much as I like sheik, again hard to look at
Good thread mang

 

[Terodactyl Yelnats]

Ganon suffers from such bad matchups it makes me want to throw up. But his worst matchups belong to woman so that just proves him as a gentleman.

 

[phi1ny3]

Wow, I almost forgot this was still going, let's continue with other aspects, like stage control and such vs. Lucario (even though it's prolly like "Lol" in amount of options)

 

[Winnar]

So I counterpicked Ganondorf against Moogle's Jiggs in the grand finals of a low-tier tournament. I won :O

Ganon too good

 

[phi1ny3]

So, has this died/been decided yet?

 

[Koskinator]

You need to play VERY defensively against Lucario. He will come in with SH Fairs and Nairs and combo you right off the stage. Camping with aura spheres is hard to get around sometimes too, you gotta know how to powershield. The best strategy I've found is baiting Lucario in then punished SH aerials with a Dtilt. If you can get him off-stage and predict an airdodge, 1-2 reverse uairs should gimp him.

 

[hdrevolution123]

Wow, so many great disadvantages in matchups

 

[SaltyKracka]

Wow, so many great disadvantages in matchups

It's not as bad as all that. We're all masochists here, so we tend to do our hardest matchups first.

 

[hdrevolution123]

It's not as bad as all that. We're all masochists here, so we tend to do our hardest matchups first.

Your hardest seems to be clearly be MK? How'd you work your way around that?

 

[Ray_Kalm]

<_<.

I'll get this going again tomorrow..

 

[Excellence]

Where is the dicussion?

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Where is the dicussion?

Right here, we're about to "start" it. Hopefully you could still read properly.

So.... where to begin. This match-up is around 80-20 in Olimars favor. From my matches with Excellence, even though I normally 3-stock his Wario, Olimar is a completely other story. He could KO us as low as 80%, even lower with proper edge-guard techniques.

All I could say at the moment.

 

[Excellence]

Right here, we're about to "start" it. Hopefully you could still read properly.

So.... where to begin. This match-up is around 80-20 in Olimars favor. From my matches with Excellence, even though I normally 3-stock his Wario, Olimar is a completely other story. He could KO us as low as 80%, even lower with proper edge-guard techniques.

All I could say at the moment.

Give my Wario a break, I've only been using him for a few days.

Ganondorf is really easy to beat. You can spam pikmin at him to force an approach and when he does you can always counter him. Either you NAir into whatever he's trying to use, grab him during lag, or FSmash away anything that you wouldn't Nair or Grab. You can either remain unpredictable, abuse your massive range, or both.

 

[Dabuz]

ok, in this matchup as you say it is highly in our favor, reason being, we can camp you all day and when you manage to finally reach us after taking 40% from pikmin we can grab you or smash, then go to other side, rinse and repeat, its a fact, we can grab you out of anything and you ground approaches are no good and stopping pikmin is to no avail as well

next, any approach you make is useless, we can grab you on ground, or fsmash you, if you try to do shorthopped aerials we can see it a mile away when fighting ganon and up-b it and once you above us like that we will juggle you until your easily dead, so approaching is useless, and our purples when thrown will also knock you back a good amount

like you said before, we can get you off the edge relatively easy at like 80% and will purples and good edge guarding skills you will easily get killed very early,

we also outprioritize all your moves except for dair which trade hits with upsmash and upair if you shorthop it,

you also fall for all our grab combos until like 40% easily, so one grab is like 60%

we are hard to hit, because of our size you will not be hitting olimar much, and any hit that does manage to touch oli will get sheildgrabbed unless its side b, which will be your only real means of damage until we start predicting it and grabbing you first

ganon plays a very punish based game, and oli has no laggy moves that will be used much so punishing olimar is out of the question with ganon

any stage that is good for you oli can abuse so there aren't any real cps, heck, even rc is better for us than you in this match

you are so big we can hit you way to easily, its not even funny how much of a target you are for oli and his spacing

the only things you have on us is, that can downright kill us as early as 60% if we don't abuse super armor which can be abused against ganon, and your edge guarding skills aren't enough for good olis, if you manage to hit us, and at first your side b if used sparingly is a good 20% with the jab

if you manage to get a dair on us and keep us in the air you get an easily kill normally

uh, thats really it, honestly, this match is one of the most one sided matchups in brawl, i don't even have to try when fighting ganon and i can still win always, you should really just pick up a secondary against oli

 

[Koskinator]

Flame choke into downsmash is too good. Its guaranteed against Olimar all the time, and once the Oli starts DI'ing up to avoid the second hit, thats when you start Dtilting. If at high percent they expect a downsmash and DI up but we Dtilt, it kills earlier. But otherwise, yeah, BS matchup.

 

[TP]

This is NOT one of the most one-sided matchups in Brawl. Other chars **** Ganon even harder.

The good news: We have all 4 followups on Olimar from a choke: Dtilt, Jab, DA, and best of all Ftilt. Choke>Ftilt and a Tipman to follow means we can kill Olimar at like 40% if we are lucky.

The bad news: Absolutely everything else.

80:20 sounds reasonable.

 

[Dabuz]

Flame choke into downsmash is too good. Its guaranteed against Olimar all the time, and once the Oli starts DI'ing up to avoid the second hit, thats when you start Dtilting. If at high percent they expect a downsmash and DI up but we Dtilt, it kills earlier. But otherwise, yeah, BS matchup.

This is NOT one of the most one-sided matchups in Brawl. Other chars **** Ganon even harder.

The good news: We have all 4 followups on Olimar from a choke: Dtilt, Jab, DA, and best of all Ftilt. Choke>Ftilt and a Tipman to follow means we can kill Olimar at like 40% if we are lucky.

The bad news: Absolutely everything else.

80:20 sounds reasonable.

no, if olimar is fast and skilled you only have one followup, jab, trust me on this

 

[DanGR]

Dabuz, they are guaranteed followups after the flame choke. They're talking about using jab, dtilt, ftilt, etc directly after a flame choke- without having to tech chase.

Edit: Instead of just saying that Olimar beats Ganondorf really badly, which he does, I'd like to discuss the different situations that both Olimar and Ganondorf might encounter and what to do about them.

 

[TP]

no, if olimar is fast and skilled you only have one followup, jab, trust me on this

Ftilt and Dtilt need to be buffered correctly. Too early or too late ruins it. For jab, all you have to do is hit A repeatedly.

 

[Koskinator]

dabuz, I played L cancel and DTcrazy before, I was hitting both of them with downsmashs and dtilts out of flame choke consistently. Someone wifi dabuz and show him please.

 

[Dabuz]

dabuz, I played L cancel and DTcrazy before, I was hitting both of them with downsmashs and dtilts out of flame choke consistently. Someone wifi dabuz and show him please.

yesh, please, beccause i still don't beleive you...

 

[Ray_Kalm]

yesh, please, beccause i still don't beleive you...

I'd gladly own you if I wasn't stuck with a wifi tournament at the moment.

and, I'm sure Kosk is feeling the same way.

 

[TP]

I'll get right on it!

Dabuz, I'm adding you now. Are you on?

EDIT: Wait a sec, I suck at buffering online! Someone else do it! I'm not playing him.

 

[Dabuz]

I'll get right on it!

Dabuz, I'm adding you now. Are you on?

yeah, you host, ill let you show me first then we fight regular(maybe)


edit

 

[Zori]

i dont think its 80-20 i have lost to gannons olimar is like the perfect weight distribution for side-b combos and this plays a big part because you can kill us early but once we get out of that first combo you don't really have anything going for you i'd say 65-45

 

[Squirrely]

I can consistently land dsmashes from flame choke as well. The tricky part is landing a flame choke. Nine times out of ten you'll get grabbed while trying. I hate playing olimars. I hate all short characters and all characters with "projectiles" and all characters with ranged grabs. His grab is probably the hardest range one to punish out of ranged grabs excluding maybe a yoshi pivot since it come out and ends so quickly.

 

[Excellence]

Flame choke into downsmash is too good. Its guaranteed against Olimar all the time, and once the Oli starts DI'ing up to avoid the second hit, thats when you start Dtilting. If at high percent they expect a downsmash and DI up but we Dtilt, it kills earlier. But otherwise, yeah, BS matchup.

This isn't guarenteed if Olimar can DI out of it. Something guarenteed would be something like a chaingrab which cannot be escaped unless excecuted poorly. Still, I haven't seen any Ganondorf do this, not even Kalm, though I may not have given him much a chance. And, let's suppose that this is a guarenteed follow-up. You still have to manage a Flame Choke on Olimar. Trying to accomplish this would be somewhat of an up-wall battle for Ganondorf. I'm sure you'll agree that you'll die before any good Olimar does.

This is NOT one of the most one-sided matchups in Brawl. Other chars **** Ganon even harder.

The good news: We have all 4 followups on Olimar from a choke: Dtilt, Jab, DA, and best of all Ftilt. Choke>Ftilt and a Tipman to follow means we can kill Olimar at like 40% if we are lucky.

The bad news: Absolutely everything else.

80:20 sounds reasonable.

Flame Choke isn't going to be a very common thing in this match-up. It's not like Meta Knight's Tornado or anything, so I'm not really sure if the follow-ups will make all that much a difference. Killing Olimar at 40% is ridiculous, what are you doing Warlock Punching him? Seriously. Olimar can literally abuse those invincible frames. I may not know what you're going to use, but I know you're going to try to KO me and that's all I really need to know because Ganondorf is slow. Any of his kill moves except for Flame Choke -> Down Tilt is easily Whistled and punished.

i dont think its 80-20 i have lost to gannons olimar is like the perfect weight distribution for side-b combos and this plays a big part because you can kill us early but once we get out of that first combo you don't really have anything going for you i'd say 65-45

0_o What's this Zori, 65-45, really? You get hit in the head or something? There's no way that this match-up can be anything less than 75-25 in Olimar's favor. Maybe you're rolling too much? Ganondorf really can't approach and we've got control of the match-up the entire time. What Ganon are you playing?

Edit: Let's begin the actual match-up discussion. How will Ganondorf try to approach? We can assume that from the start of the match, Olimar will be tossing Pikmin at Ganondorf - the pressure is on - what will you do?

 

[TP]

I'll admit that I forgot about whistle. My bad. Our best kill move that is unaffected by whistle is Choke>Dash Attack, which will kill you at 90% fresh. Sadly, I expect our Dash Attack to get quite stale, so killing may be pretty hard.

 

[Dabuz]

if oli camps purely ganon can't do anything, if he rushes here and there then ganon gets a chance for damage

 

[Excellence]

I'll admit that I forgot about whistle. My bad. Our best kill move that is unaffected by whistle is Choke>Dash Attack, which will kill you at 90% fresh. Sadly, I expect our Dash Attack to get quite stale, so killing may be pretty hard.

Like I said, try not to base your arguments around Flame Choke because it isn't a very viable approach against Olimar. You may land it twice, but as the saying goes "fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice or more, shame on me". After you land two of those Flame Chokes and Olimar gets down the ways and distances you plan on using it, I doubt you'll land another.

 

[A2ZOMG]

This is one of Ganondorf's hardest matchups. After his worst ones ICs, Sheik, and Falco.

Olimar in theory has everything he needs to shut down Ganondorf. If you come across an Olimar player who is better than you, pick a different character.

He can pretty much grab you any time you whiff something...which is gay and ********. And you have to approach. Unlike the ICs, he can't really 0-death Ganondorf...so if you can read him really well and punish him for making dumb mistakes, you can somehow win.

Flame Choke if you ever manage to land it on Olimar is a GODSEND. F-tilt follow up at high percents is pretty much death for Olimar. You have some attacks with surprising range, so you can occasionally hit him when he whiffs stuff...

All in all, I'd say it's 7/3 Olimar.

Don't play him on FD...

 

[Zori]

i guess... i dont camp that much so maybe its diffrent, but yes if oli camps he shuts down 80% of his options

 

[Jim Morrison]

Every matchup is Olimar has is always warranted 70:30 by Olimars. 70:30, no viable approach, blablabla, the usual shallow stuff.

 

[Dabuz]

Every matchup is Olimar has is always warranted 70:30 by Olimars. 70:30, no viable approach, blablabla, the usual shallow stuff.

no, we rarely warrant 70/30, normally we say 60/40-40/60 and thats because the opponent has a few viable approaches and good pressure game which ganon has none on olimar